rascal

"You won't find same sex arrangements among animals"

(Heavily paraphrased.)

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/science/stories/2009/08/09/sci_samesex.ART_ART_08-09-09_G3_FREMHLP.html?sid=101

My my such insight....

Whoever made THAT statement has obviously never spent much time on a farm...lol Bulls, dogs, horses will mount darned near anything that stands still long enough. :)

Damned right Leafy Twig! We thought that we were joining a group that was going to teach us all of lifes anweres and Godliness. We thought that we were committing ourselves to a group that was trying to fight the spiritual battle, strike a blow against the adversary. We thought that the leaders were decent christians with morals and character, because of all of that, we trusted them with our lives :(

Everything we thought and believed, we did because we were taught that it was God`s will. They took whatever they wanted from us in the name of God. If that isn`r the definition of a cult I don`t know what is.

Garth, I disagree, I don`t know any other fundy christian groups that require sexual servitude, forced abortions, encourage abuse,and neglec, decide who you live with and where and even when and where you work.

Bolshevik, maybe but many of us never dreamed of rebelling until told that Satan was at work in our parents, family and friends to keep us from the word, that this world was not our home but satans dominion.

(((Oakspear))) What a long strange trip it has been. I remember you before you left twi, how open and honest you were, how genuine you were in your attempts to bridge the gap. Twi missed a bet when they threw you out, you were loyal.

Most of us would never have been brave enough back then to say what you did.

Holly, Mrs. was always nice and gracious when I met her as well.

But, that's part of the problem with this doctrine of "special entitlement" that TWI promotes. It gives people like this a license to follow their pre-existing inclinations without a sense of guilt. I suppose one could apply this same logic to other types of unacceptable behaviors that were rationalized in TWI. They used convoluted reasoning that stemmed from a sense of being "the chosen ones".

Just my opinion

Brilliantly said! I think that is why we saw alcoholism, abuse, adultery, basically anything that we wanted to do, we learned to justify and excuse biblically.

I know one of our posters here told about being refused food on the wow field when out of work.

I read of an account here at gs where a fellow was sick in res and the ptb`s decided that if someone was too sick to walk to the dining room, they were too sick to eat and the rest of the corpes were forbidden to bring him anything. I think the poor fellow lay in serious trouble for days before he was finally helped...(maybe by mrs w on a visit).

Met him once. He was cold, very very cold. Course I figured it was because I was such a spiritual worm :)

I suppose that if they tried to reintroduce it, they would be faced with having to recant so much of the *present truth* and *old wine skins* crap.

I think also that old wineskins, was a way for lcm to diminish and dismiss any leaders or believers who`s previous experience contradicted him or confronted the idiocy of some of his policies.

They would have to admit to being falible, that some of their policies and decisions lacked God`s stamp and approval.

I think that they must be terrified to open any door that would allow folks to consider that a leader might make mistakes. Their iron fisted power lay in their requirements of implicit obedience to every leaders whim, because they were in tune with God.

It must scare the hell out of them, the idea of people beginning to question, to require accountability.

Wow Shell, how really frightening. I remember getting deathly ill at a roa. I didn`t have a husband to take care of me. :(

So glad that you had Bob there.

Umm..friend...uh ... No doubt, it is rather difficult to see past that beam protruding from your eye :(

Same here.

The incidents that I witnessed were dismissed as isolated.

Even when the sheet hit the fan, I thought that we should stay and fight for the ministry. Thankfully though, Spouse saw clearer than I, that it was broken beyond fixing.

:) never mind

Well now who doesn`t have a sense of humor?

FYI, I didn`t call YOU stupid, I called the statement you made saying I didn`t like Grouch Stupid :) Either you were mistaken or you deliberately lied...shrug either way it was not accurate.

Typical of you Rascal - always insulting something you know nothing of. I can't believe how insulting you get all the time. I can't believe anyone actually lets you speak in front of them.

Frankly your vitriol and venom astounds me - although I confess I also find your bitterness somewhat entertaining at times.

Ignorance? My daughter has studied TaeKwonDo for 17 years under a Korean Master and currently participates on the UCSD competitive team. In San Diego martial arts of all kinds are a big deal since there are so many Asian immigrants with varying disciplines. At the San Diego All County competition which is between students followed by a single day of just the masters, the Karate "followers" are held in the lowest esteem...for the very reasons I posted. So my facts which I have seen for years now are what you claim to be ignorance. You know nothing about my actual life in San Diego - yet you are the one who presumes to be able to accurately judge ignorance from experience and then pronounce your findings...

No Rascal - you are the ignorant one to always use harsh language when you don't have all of the facts - you are ignorant to presume that only your experiences count.

Why don't you come on out and take part in the San Diego All County competition and see for yourself whether my post was accurate or not?

I'll anxiously await your hitting the "minus" button on this post since you clearly have a personal vendetta against anything Groucho or I post.

Now unless you post more of your bitter bile against me I'll leave this thread to you and your greater knowledge of the universe.

Yo!!! Caleb - come on back - I'd like to have a chat with you - casual however as I am no longer religious - just curious about SOWERS though.

Well now that really IS stupid..I LIKE Groucho and enjoy his posts ...lol :)

I guess I don`t think much of a teacher of any kind of style that propounds that kind of crap. I have competed in open tournaments as have my kiddoes. The tae kwon do students big dramatic movements are generally able to be countered by the shorter more direct karate techniques...shrug...

Either way, The martial arts students around these parts have mutual admiration, respect and understanding of one another and their specific styles, as well as what makes each of them unique and effective.

Dooj, lead with my chin or not, I post what I think, and in spite of your numerous assertions of embarrassing myself, it would be less than honest to alter my posts or opinions or style to suit you. Why not let me post my thoughts?

Can we limit our comments to our opinions to the subject at hand rather than why one anothers points or opinions should be invalidated?

Karate = too many bad movies, too many self-indulgent braggart students

TaeKwonDo = for serious students.

Dooj, what you said was fine... now THIS is a demonstration of ignorance of the art, no doubt an attempt at being deliberately offensive. I don`t know any self respecting martial arts student from either style that would make that claim.

Linda, Thank you.

Rascal, I know we can all evolve and hopefully change for the better, heck, it's part of life, so that's o.k.

You sound sore at me, and when I saw the "-2" on your initial response to me I did my best and now it reads "-1".

So that's how I thought about your post.

I was serious about jumping in with you too! I may be wrong but I can make an edumacated guess on where the "-2" came from.

Jeff I have absolutely no idea what those numbers mean and until you pointed them out hadn`t noticed them before.

I meant what I said. I am sorry that I ever tried to say anything.

Tag, I think that it is great that you area excited about finding teachings on line. It seems to be something that communicates well for you. I think however that it would be cool if you could consider that God is able to work in a variety of mediums, through different people of different belief systems within whatever the parameters that they will allow him.

The supposed superior understanding of the scriptures, trinity dead alive now etc did not prevent twi leaders from being incredibly cruel and evil. Likewise, I have seen that an absence of heavy duty scriptural study does not prevent people from being energized vital christians involved in service to God. :)

Alright Jeff, sorry that I said anything at all.

Well said Tzaia.

Okay. Then I stand corrected.

I was thinking about something I read a long time ago. An actress was taking lessons from Chuck Norris (don't laugh!) and she insisted that he spar with her in an alley while she was in heels. Her thinking was that she'd never really need to defend herself while she was in a ghee and barefooted. She wanted him to all out fight with her - so that she could learn how to really defend herself in a real fight.

My ignorance of the art shows...

I still think a lot of bait has been thrown out on this thread...

No laughing here, I admire Chuck Norris and your point is absolutely valid. Now I understand a little better what you were talking about. Thanks for clarifying :)

Way WAY off topic:

My very favorite CN story is where he was teaching Steve Mqueen privately, and it was decided that attending a yoga class would help loosen tight muscles. The two macho men were required to don leotards, Chuck using his superior speed and agility to snatch the blue ones leaving Steve the pink....Him telling Steve to suck it up as they left the dressing room in their finery only to have Chuck quickly step back into the dressing room slam and lock the door leaving Steve out in the middle of the studio with all of the tittering ladies dressed in pink leotards :)

Rascal - let's look at this for a moment...

A lot of questions have been posed - which S-'09 asked for.

Some folks swatted him for asking for respect while he gave none out, Granted, Sower explained that and apologized. But ya' gotta admit that's one heck of a way to enter a crowd - and not a good way. I'll give him lack of wisdom because of his youth. But he did apologize - something I'm still deciding came from him or his leaders.

And... now that I think of it... his first post said he'd answer questions... then eventually he posted that he was working 60-70 hours a week. What? He didn't know that he'd be busy when he first made the invitation? I'm thinking that something doesn't smell quite right with this thread...

As to how folks are responding...

You've posted that you take karate. Think about this for a second, if you will. If you were in a sparring match with a young buck, would you soft touch him or her? The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post.

I'd like to see him answer some or all of the questions on this thread. More importantly, I'd like to see the thinking process behind the answers. I just happen to think that the point of this thread was never intended to inform us. I have no delusions that S-'09 will be "rescued" from his cult.

He didn't come here to find out more - that's our gig. I'm not of a mind to project my intentions onto this young man. He didn't come here as some lost soul looking for answers. He came here with the intent of telling us how it is - and even that hasn't panned out too well.

Now - for a page or two or even three - we're waiting. I'm thinking that if he doesn't answer soon, that the point was to see what fur could fly around here among us.

I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm still skeptical as whether or not answers are really forthcoming.

Dooj, as a karate student, We are trained to exert just enough force to protect ones self, whether it be a young buck in class, a competition, or indeed in a real life self defense situation. No more. In a competition unnecessary force is penalized by point loss, in real life, legally prosecutable.

As I improve, my ability to disarm an opponent and render them unable to cause harm without doing damage is a mark of the level of my competence. So yeah, I would attempt to treat the youngster with a soft touch knowing that education, experience and maturity has made it important for me to show restraint instead of *taking him out* even when he acts as if he deserves it.

Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi?

Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved.

It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure.

I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.

No Rascal - not reading any nastiness in your post although your allegation about me is about the same as reading nastiness into my post - I just happen to disagree with you rather radically - but hey that isn't anything new twixt you and me is it?

Want a recipe for a great martini? Might lighten up some posts.

No thanks, I don`t feel I need to drink in order to post.

Please feel free to put my posts on your handy dandy little ignore button and then you won`t be further irritated by my sobriety, or disagreeable point of view. They are mine, I am not constrained to post only in the manner in which rr approves and appreciates. :)

But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God.

He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no?

Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group.

I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol

I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.

Jeff, my post was well meant ... an attempt at a gentle reminder of where we all came from and how far we have come together. I`d hate to see someone feel so besieged and bullied that they were uncomfortable sharing and in return maybe learning a little bit from our perspective as well. I apologize for not communicating that better.

I am afraid that rr is reading a nastiness towards you into my post that I never intended.

You are a pretty fair fellow, so I hope that you can read my request with the understanding and in the spirit that it was given.

Twinky, the fella did come back and post.

Jeff, I think you ought to lighten up a bit. Caleb apologized. Most of us don`t have a full understanding of how truly reprehensible twi leaders and off shoot leaders behavior has been when we arrive here. I seem to remember being reprimanded by you for speaking ill of wierwille when you first arrived. It takes time to learn and come to grips with the true horrors of what many of us have suffered.

It takes time to re evaluate an entire life time of beliefs and teachings in light of that.

I don`t think that running at somebody with a ball bat swinging is going to help them hear a different point of view.

This kid had the guts to post, and the grace to apologize. There are several pages of questions directed at him, some pretty harsh. It might seem like a gang banging to him.

I`d like to hear what he has to say.

hey everyone! I appreciate the warm welcome! :) I will address matters as i have time. i am busy working on a farm right now and hours run 60-70 per week.

First off. about the so called threat. Of course i am only kidding about actually showing up at someones door. But it does kinda portray my feelings on the subject.

The redneck remark was more or less a hint for those of yall that follow the website as to which sower I am, as there was on ein particular that always wore camo jackste, john deere shirts and dixie flag ballcaps.

My name is Caleb. Im 22.

I do have one year of college completed and took some time off casue i wannted to just work and see waht i was interested in. i pplan on attending tech school for Aouto Mechanics and welding, as well as get a degree in criminal justice with plans to possibly go into law enforcement. Whats my background? My mom was a WOW in 82' of course we are no longer involved in the way international. My parents knew stuff went south. However, they chose to leave the orginazation not the word.

Im tired. been a long day on teh forklift movin pallets of watermelons. Im also soaking wet from a toad strangler of aa thunderstorm that snuck up on us, and im covered in cow crap. So i will say good nite and I will see yall later.

Ironically enough I have never reall been crazy or a partier or "wild" rednck is just my upbring. i have lived in the south pretty much my whole life. i was rasied in the country hunting, fishing, muddin', listenin' to Johnny cash with my dad etc...

Probably a poor choice of words to describe me on my first post. i apologize.

Lol, pleased to meet you Caleb :P

I am Cathy, was a wow in 79, and again in 85 maybe your folks and I crossed paths at some point.

My oldest son is your age. My eldest daughter begins college this fall in pursuit of her criminal law degree. Both have grown up in the south (tenn) and know what it is to work hard on the farm. It`s great to be a kid in the country eh?

I love your euphanisms and am glad that you were kidding about showing up on someones doorstep. (It was funny) I wrote and erased several times a reply in my previous post, because I was afraid it might be misconstrued as genuinely threatening in return....I will re post now that we are on the same page.

Edited from earlier post:

Bring it on friend, but before you show up unanounced....a simple warning: that SOME of the posters here have BIG dogs, a permit to carry, and have studied martial arts for the last 8 years....

In truth my dogs don`t bite and I rarely shoot, and I am pretty slow for all of my karate training :) More than likely, I`d invite you in for supper and you would have to deal with my forty leven kids (a much scarier prospect than the guns or dogs ) for the evening.

Seriously, glad to meet you and look forward to learning more about you and your perspective.