rascal

I think this claim appealed to people's sense of honesty. Most of us like to think we'd change if we found out we were wrong about something. TWI transferred that sense of honesty to doing what they called Biblical research.

Did anyone stop to think there could be ALARMING side effects to changing what you once claimed to be "the truth" and nothing but the "accuracy of the Bible"?

Consider this: many people who based serious decisions for their lives on that "accuracy of the Bible" VP claimed to teach in PFAL, could not undo their decisions (like dropping out of college to go into the Way Corps) as easily as TWI might undo what they'd previously taught.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who alienated family members over what I claimed was "the truth" I learned in PFAL. How does a person gain back those lost years of familial relationships after TWI decides one of their original doctrines they once claimed was "the truth" is wrong?

You simply don`t you can`t.

Some things done in the name of God and commttment to his word can never ever be fixed :(

Praying with you Abby.

Can`t say what you really think...oops can`t really even think what you want because that is negative. Can`t be honest about what you have seen, what you feel, warn another of impending danger....because it is all...negative. Can`t tell another what is really going on in your life, cannot be honest.. Can`t handle what is being insisted on from you...every fiber of your being screaming how wrong what they are telling you God requires ?? Run retemories through your head to silence that inner voice .. to ignore your better judgement ...to numb yourself while you brokenly comply with orders.....

How many people (me for one) were warned away from greasespot or way dale even AFTER they left twi because they couldn`t handle the *negatives* :(

It took a long time to over come this particular conditioning.

WHat boggles MY mind is when you consider how many tens of thousands of people were praying for those leaders and the house hold at any given moment of every day.....day after day year after year ...decades where millions and millions of hours of heartfelt prayers for these people....ugh...how utterly rediculous and completely useless was that??

I don`t think there is a one size fits all...you must go to church you must subscribe to an offshoot you must be with like minded people therapy no therapy..etc.

For 5 yrs post twi I was in the same stagnant mindset...my arrogance in my knowledge of scripture..my confiidence that I had the truth and every one else was stupid...prevented any healing or moving on...I was hopeless doomed to operating principles that didn`t work no matter how scrupulously applied, and inevitably blaming myself for the lack of results.

In the avatar movie there is a line that to me describes our mindset to a t... *It is hard to fill a cup that is already full*

Meaning if we think we know it all, think that our knowledge makes us spiritual, enlightened, our beliefs the only possible conclusion...what could thos idiots in the church teach ME?? We limit ourselves ...there isn`t room to learn from people with whom God has guided on a different path, different lessons learned ...different long suits mastered.

I have learned a great deal from our little country church. Love, support, encouragement, recognizing and valuing each individual and the contributions that the unique insight developed through their own spiritual journey.

Some churches we have attended have been better for us than others...no doubt they suit the people that attend just fine, they just weren`t for us where we were at at the time....a couple were even nearly as poisonous and destructive as twi...

I have met some outstanding spiritual individuals inside and outside the church. Meeting wonderful spirit filled christians in my experience doesn`t seem to be limited to a particular denomination, and they seem to be able to b able to lend perspective and guidance that is new and refreshing after our twi experience.

What I am trying to say is that I have learned not to discredit an individual or the value of what they might have to impart because of the label they wear.

Divisiveness is a twi trait that will keep us forever isolated if we let it :(

We're supposed to make Jesus Lord.

Amen I wish I had said it, that covers it nicely :)

I am amazed at how they convinced us to do this to ourselves....to shut down our own common sense...to ignore danger signals....to to comply with orders that were contrary to our best interests...to endure hardships .. to accept abuse... to place ourselves in danger...believing it was our own faults when the inevitable consequences happened...

Obey whatever a leader suggested...no matter how crazy...God would honor our believing...Shut down that inner voice screaming to be heard by running retemory verses........ignore that inner voice, that concience the still small voice .... because that was satan trying to decieve you...only think one thought at a time...occupy your mind with

I am amazed that they managed to get us to blind ourselves

What a concept, and they managed to find a way to get the people who could actually *see* to ignore that which their perceptions were telling them. get us to shut out the pleas and voices of our family members and friends when they tried to intervene on our behalf labeling them as agents of satan trying to keep us from the word...They managed to effectively silence the voices of those who finally were aware of what they were seeing by convincing the rest of us that those who were trying to sound the alarm bells and wake us up were deceived and possessed.

So, do you think those leaders were truly spiritually blind, or were their eyes wide open, knowing that they were leading the rest astray?

I hear you guys, grease spot is instrumental in our healing as well. No doubt I would have spent the rest of my life wondering where we went wrong, waiting for satan to take us out, trying to live up to the impossible standard of a flawed belief system...sigh

Thank you

Tom, You don`t see it, ok.....but that doesn`t mean I was intentionally disruptive or negate my identifying and agreeing with another`s point on this thread..really :)

When my perceptions and understanding were denigrated as churchy....ok...but is that parting insult necessarily Christian either?

Hey there! Questioning is the very beginning, the start....examining...rethinking...it takes time...lots of it.

No one path works for all. Trust God to tailor an individual path of growth and healing for you.

REading is great hobbies even better to get you out amongst new people and mainstream ideas.

Many of my activities have been centered around raising the kids so wouldn`t be effective for another...what do you like? Get a pet, join the theatre, take classes at a local college, study martial arts, volunteer, ride horses, join a ball team...it is so fun to explore your interests develop your own unique gifts and attributes instead of being cookie cutter believers...and then watch God unfold himself to you through those things which ignite your passions and ideas.

What works for me doesn`t work for spouse, he likes to read/study periodicals, teachings from different offshoots...(shiver ;)) I don`t think that there is a wrong way.

You will meet new people, make friends, lose friends, become a vital part of your community...these are great times friend,

Yeah, Dennis Mghee or something. I have two copies amongst my old way stuff. If it is important to you I can get the specifics.

Tom, I think that we were taught to disdain and dismiss those churches. I have come to the conclusion that if God could reach AND teach me in that evil snake infested twi ...as bad or in imo way worse than anything found in the supp-osed wicked witchcraft spirits governing a given pentecostal church (we have a dear friend that is a pentecostal minister btw)...shoot odds are he can work within the parameters boundaries and limitations of the doctrines of these churches to reach people no matter how distastfull we might personally find their practices.

My point being, that before you (we) sneer a church for their practices and understanding, you (one) might consider that is how God reaches, establishes and begins to lead an individual...what works and resounds with you might not necessarily work or resound with me or the people who enjoy fellowship within different understandings and parameters....and that others just might have long suits and understanding above and beyond our understanding in other equally important areas....shrug.

Having great volumes of doctrinal knowledge did very little to stem the flow of evil and hurt practiced in twi...so I have my doubts as to how important the search for doctrinal accuracy is compared to love God and love your neighbor.

edited to clarify who I meant as *you* it wasn`t directed at any one person :)

sorry

oops double post

Oh, and what you do for people Geisha?? You have my respect, people will see God`s hand in what you do far more than any scriptural sermon.

Hermit?? No Tom, you are not reading or understanding my points at all. My agreement and understanding of Geisha was not an attack of you or a negation of anything that you were posting. (Heck I didn`t even read it all..lol) I spoke of myself post twi, and the people that I have interacted with. They were simply my observations...ie that which we were taught to disdain and despise in the churches may indeed be the missing ingredients to that which can be instrumental in helping to heal and move on.

Trying to follow the same twi formulas and doctrines with people that only agree with our doctrinal perspectives, while comfortable and familiar, can I think limit ones perspective.

To me it seems to be a common difficulty after twi people experience....that because of a learned disdain of churches and the people that attend ... folks end up missing out on a great deal ....shrug

Geisha your analogy of the vine is a very apt one, what fires my husbands imagination and sound bells and whistles for him...bores me to tears... he has disdain for what energises and strengthens...me...what we find amazing is that we end up on the same page most of the time even though our beliefs have gone in such different directions...it took a long long time to learn that we didn`t have to, nor was it even healthy to walk the same path spiritually so to speak...lol it`s like you said...we are both still connected to the vine and the proof is in our continued health and growing...I get it :)

I just hate to see anyone dismiss the value and validity of what is out here simply because of a learned dislike...shrug.

I understand what you are saying geisha, We have attended a marvelous little church as the kids have grown up. The people at first glance were certainly not whom I would typically consider hanging out with....and no doubt vice versa...lol but this minister has the tremendous ability to see the christ in an individual ... finding and valuing long suits and ones unique insights and perspectives.

I have learned so much above and beyond doctrinal issues from so many many people in this church and surrounding community, but it took me putting aside my own personal aquired arrogance and bias as to what and who were important.

Our beloved minister and now dear friend will retire this month...who knows if the lessons she has imparted will survive in this particular group...if we can continue to see one another as individual works in progress, one together in Christ...strengthening and caring for one another...I don`t know.

I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding.... I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with...

Makes sense, one doesn`t have to challenge ones self if the only people they allow into their sphere of influence are those who believe exactly as or are willing to learn to believe exactly as we do..no?

edited to add... Geisha, I was typing this before you posted, your post said it all better and more succinctly, but I will leave my thoughts out here any way

Hey ((Zix)) glad to see you, but doggone it, I hate that you are having such a tough time.

Thanks for the clarification soul searcher. I understand what you are saying. I think that it would be too easy to pass off turning to drugs and alcohol as simply not really being born again...or a lack of accurate knowledge...etc.....but I know so many people that turn to God with all of their heart and strength, yet it doesn`t afford them peace or freedom from that which torments them.

Having a relationship with God seems to simply make their sufferings a little more bearable.

I can say this much. God has healed me, lifted me up from the former shell of a human I was, re-payed me the lost years, and is repaying me what was lost to the way international.

Amen and seconded!

What is your thinking soul searcher? I was *born again* or *turned my life over to God* or *invited Jesus into my heart* as a child as well. How did that stop us from having sucky lives and being vulnerable to spiritual charlatans?

I sometimes wonder though if that isn`t one of the dividing lines or difference between people in twi...on how doctrine was peceived, who became abusers.who became victims...who later escaped and those who are stuck as lifers believing that there is no better way out there.

The least common denominator?

Gullibility.

Naw, I`d say it was more like vulnerability that made us easily exploitable.

I was a lonely kid from a broken home. The promise of being part of a family that never left you...to be needed, an important part of something that was bringing good into the world, a lure that was irresistable to a teen with no guidance or direction in life. To be with people who made you feel like you were a needed important part of a spiritual battle where I could strike a blow for God against darkness and evil...

I wanted what the wows that witnessed to me had... peace, a fearlessness, indomitable enthusiasm...the feeling that nothing was impossible.

I was targeted at 17 yrs old by wows....you know how it was.....find a need and promise any answeres were available if one only took the class...a wow died during the week of the class, the night of my high school graduation.....first experience with death...blamed on the the adversary trying to stop the move of the word....yadda yadda....trying to scare me away....yadda yadda....so what was I gonna do?? be more committed of course...go wow to replace the one he killed of course...grow spiritually as fast as I could in order to be a vital component in the spiritual battle...get my licks in for God don`t cha know?

It all seemed so noble and important at the time....sigh

I admire your resolve in not allowing those people control despite the pressure.

JJ, I was pressured, but it was kind of a reverse psychology type of thing. I wasn`t able to understand the greater spiritual truths because I wasn`t corpes. LCM stated publicly that if you weren`t corpes than you weren`t allowed in his presence...yadda yadda...if you weren`t corpes, you were a bump on a log spiritualy and a waste of space at twig...if you believed the scriptures and loved God...there is no place else to be...its the only place to learn to serve...

My dialogues would go like this...

wc...you need to go corpes..

me...but don`t you have to have natural leadership ability??

wc...yeah but if you would just make the commitment God would have to create that within you wouldn`t he???

me...what about all of those classes that are required that have never been available in our state...

wc...don`t you trust that God would provide that??

me...what about all of that money for tuition...

wc...you just need to make the commitment...God will take care of the rest...wheres your believing man?

Strangely enough, at the end of that first app year, the same classes that had never been offered before were still

unavailable...I had even LESS money than anticipated because leadership had insisted that I needed the spirituality of living with other believers so had left my rent free parents home....being in a small area, all of the believers were already tapped out for sponsorship....and and AND...I had the nerve to still keep a pet that year...gasp....the shame

So because of my lack of believing, my obvious lack of corpes *heart* I was treated to my very first spittle flying face melting by rich waddlkins.

He was so big and my bed room was so small... his bellowing terrifiying...his scorn so scathing ... every ounce of self esteem and worth destroyed...I would have promised anything to be permitted to crawl on my belly back in to the presence of God........I asked meekly if he thought that going wow would help me improve what I was so soarly lacking...

I`ll tell you what, I genuinely wish I could have a chance to speak to that pompous bullying foot face to face today :) and it WOULDNT be a cowering terrified slip of a girl that big goon would be facing...lol...and THIS time...it wouldn`t be HIM that was doing the confronting or cowering..

Some leaders genuinely seemed to like having an excuse to unload on people.

JJ, I am sorry that your family was so fractured by these bullies, I kicked mine to the curb because they were not in the ministry. It has taken twenty years, but the wounds heal, and though I can never retrieve the time, lost, the parties, weddings, funerals and vacations missed that bind a family together that form and strengthen those bonds, they have in time made a place for me. In time, I hope your family replaces what was stolen.

Thanks Geisha, I talked with the minister last night that has pastored the church that the kids and I have attended since leaving twi.

She is retiring, in June, her last act? To propose that the churches college scholorship be awarded to my kiddo this year. Know what? We aren`t even members! This is the same lady that broke the barriers and obsticals down that were preventing daughters entry in to college last year.

Same lady that when she found out I was sick a couple of years back and hadn`t the money to go to the specialist, too ill to be able to do anything for myself, she got together the money, picked me up drove all the way to vanderbilt and stayed with me. She made sure that I had any medications I needed

All of the doctrine and scriptural mania that plagued twi wouldn`t have meant squat in either situation, as a matter of fact we would have been roundly condemned for our lack of believing or for leaving spiritual doors open...

The thing is, that the longer I am away from the practices of twi and their idea of what is spiritual or Godly, the more offensive their claims of being *the best* out there become to me.

Now, having seen and interacted with folks that are genuinely filled with the spirit of God, who manifest his love, I can certainly see why wierwille and twi would work so hard to prejudice us to the point where we would avoid contact.

The sad thing is, even after leaving, it seems like a bias that lingers and prevents us from enjoying the interaction and benefit of fellowshipping with some really great folks.