rascal

*******My opinion*******

There is a difference between wanting God for who He is......and wanting knowledge. There is a difference between worshiping and delighting in God for being God....and delighting in words. Truth is a who....not a what....and truth has a name, and a voice.

If that truth is missing....what is really left?

VP used to say "It's the word, the word, and nothing but the word"....well then, that is what you get.....words......and endless disputes over words. The word became flesh...

I hope they all find something better. :)

Well said!

I think the *greatness* of twi doctrine lies in the permitting, sanctification and justification of just about any perversion one chooses to indulge in without consequence.

It`s all good, this is the grace administration, anything as long as you can handle it....great stuff for anyone who doesn`t wish to have to make the tough choices in moral conduct.

I have come to the conclusion that those great teachings and understandings can`t be worth too darned much if the end result is the real monsters that were bred and flourished in twi, the doctrine seems to facilitate a wide range of abuses.

Remember when vp taught about counterfet? I think that he needed to create a distrust a lack of appreciation for churches, that what he taught was somehow special so that people would not find that what he was teaching was bogus, other wise once becoming familiar with the genuine love of God and people with no real agenda, that we might see right through his little charade.

He, and now they HAVE to persuade folks that their research is valuable, only available there, or people wouldn`t put up with the enslavement and abuse.

All you have to do is look at the damage wrought to know how valuable, spiritual, accurate or important their doctrine really is.

I think being the wife of the president is her lifetime assignment, no matter who the president it..

OMG, you must be right :o

Well said Belle, learning to reconsider things from outside of twi perspective was one of the most difficult challenges I have faced.

I never could see the *greatness* in this class that everyone so glowingly painted. Course I didn`t want to be such a spiritual moron that I couldn`t see what everyone else saw, so it was like you guys said...I kept retaking the class and others to understand, to be spiritually mature and sharp....to get that knowledge that would make me a real spiritual warrior sigh.

Take these classes, you will see, go wow, you will grow, advanced class you will get there...corpes program will get you there...oops that is a life time commitment.

Yes, pfal was the beginning of the entrapment, the snare.

Yet (and please excuse my ignorance) it's run by a woman who is a lesbian? Do I have this right?

(edited because I just re-read chockfull's post and answered my own question)

I just don't get it. Then again, I can be a dumbazz at times.

Lol...is it not ironic?? The ministry founded by a man who believed women were always to occupy a subservient position to a mog??? His baby, his pride and joy...his lifes work... now being RUN by snort a lowly woman! Worse yet a woman who seemingly surrounds herself with ulp that which they fear and despise the most...the lowest of the low.....

Lesbians!!!...lmao and the wife of the disgraced second president a rumored participant...what a testimony...What a legacy

I sometimes wonder if God has a sense of humor.

Too bad people still take these people seriously...sigh

I am unsure if this should be here, or in memorial or doctrinal forums, since it kind of touches on several areas. Please feel free to move it to the appropriate section.

I wanted to tell about my friend Laura`s sister and her passing this week. Edith was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer earlier this year. She fought long and hard, always believing that she would beat it, unfailingly upbeat and positive in her outlook,courageous in her faith.

I never met her personally, just talked with her over the phone, our bible study group at church had kept her in our weekly prayers. Laura called me last night after Ediths funeral to thank us for the prayers, I apologized, thinking that they hadn`t done a hell of a lot of good...Laura was really excited, not what I would expect after laying her sister to rest. She strongly objected to the idea that the prayers had been useless and told me of Ediths final hours.

Edith`s family had taken turns all day at her bedside, the final shift being taken by a cousin who was also a nurse. These are the events she witnessed and shared afterward:

Joan and Edith laughed and talked for 5 hours. At some point, Edith appeared to begin noticing others in the room, even though still seemingly lucid and talking to Joan. Her joy grew as she greeted deceased grandparents, friends that had passed away in her youth. She grew ever more excited and joy filled with each new recognition. At one point she delightedly exclaimed, *Why Lauren, just look at you up and walking around!!!

Lauren I found out later, was a beloved niece that had passed away at 6 years old never having walked.

After a while, Edith in incredulous suprise greeted a horse...Joan said that she then reached up to gently scratch his neck, and drew it to her embracing in a blissful hug. She reached up as if grabbing a handful of mane, lifted her leg as if sliding up it`s back and mounting...her expression incredulous, as she straightened and exclaimed *Oh Joanie, it is SO much more beautiful here than we ever could have imagined*. Edith was beaming as she bid Joanie goodbye seemingly focused eagerly on the adventure unfolding before her. It was at that point, her breathing changed. Joan hurriedly awoke Ediths son. His mother tenderly baid him goodbye, again mumuring *it is so much more beautiful than we could have ever ever imagined....as she faded away filled with a joy, at peace.

At the funeral, the joy eminating from the two folks that had witnessed her passing was inspiring. Laura said that you couldn`t wipe the grin off of the son`s face.

I know this runs counter to what we were taught and believed. I know that folks will wondering if she was hallucinating or being tricked by devil spirits masquerading yadda yadda....sigh.

I have to wonder, I know that what happened to Edith was going to happen regardless, she was going to see what she was going to see...experience what she experienced. She would pass not only in peace, and with a joy so profound that it moved those around her. What is to me humbling, is the feeling that God alowed her to share a bit with us,seemingly peeled back the veil so to speak, permitting us to catch just a brief glimpse of what awaits us, a comforting if you will to those of us left here struggling to understand, to endure the difficulties each day present.

Laura asked me to thank all who had prayed, believing that those prayers for her sister were an integral part of what made her passing the not only peaceful, but the profoundly inspirational event.

Shellon, whew that was well written, so expressive of the difficulties endured. The control that they assumed over our lives, is simply astonishing.

You bring back the frustration and questions about why we submitted, why we allowed ourselves to be silenced, why we complied with insane edicts...sigh

It is un imaginable that they made our basic choices, even down to deciding whether we were allowed to produce children at a given time.

The demands that you submit to all of those guys, opening your home and check book at all hours of the night....geemany...That leader saying that about your sweet teenaged daughter, demonstrates how completely insane they were in just assuming that this was an acceptable thing to tell a 16 yr olds mother....

Wow, what lunatics. Thank God that you are free, that your children had such a fiercely tough and independent mama that would fight so selflessly for their safety and freedom....

It frightens me how much easier that it would have been to just turn off your heart, shut out that inner voice and submit brokenly...to be swallowed up by twi.

You are a strong woman.

I am thinking. . . maybe. . . . VP just may have mislead us. .

http://bible.org/art...peaking-tongues

Yup, the *fruit* he manifested would appear to support this possibility.

I just don`t think that God would have had anything to do with leading us to a place where we would be abused and exploited. It`s an insult, imo

Many people joined twi were already mentally handicapped or just screwed up in general. When have you seen "normals" come to fellowship and then take the class? (well I haven't).

Then twi told them if they were adv class grads they could get married and make kids.

What a great group.

I noticed that when I was involved, that anybody with any need was promised healing and wholeness through what twi had to offer. There would be no appeal to so called *normals* To any who were vulnerable, the lure was irresistable. Family, stability, love, prosperity, healing...we would jump through hoops for many years to achieve the promised results...In the end, you either came to believe the hype, or realized that you had been suckered all along.

I think you're on to something there. There have been quite a few TWI leaders of questionable mental health I've run into. Obsessive / compulsive, anger issues, bipolar, compulsive liars. And all of these with a "rev" title. At the very top now you have a black widow spider that would eat her own young.

Yes, saw these attributes all the way up and down the way tree also, accompanied with great sounding biblical reasons why these things were not only excusable, but admirable. I also think that there is a lot of alcoholism post twi. I think that in many cases this and other long standing issues needing to be addressed are ignored because of the learned distrust of health care providers, and it being seen as weakness.

"Attention to detail" isn't in and of itself a bad thing. If you met an artisan, officer of the law, or even a firefighter you'd agree that attention to detail is why they are successful in what they do. Surely twi took things to an extreme, but it's always necessary to separate the motive from the action.

WE?...WE?? Who's "we" kemosabe? many of us- maybe even most of us made our own decision to LEAVE early on. I don't know anyone personally who became unable to make his or her own decisions. I'd say that GSC is full of folks who made their own decision to leave.

These broad stroke claims are a disgrace. Sure, twi was phrucked up - and manipulating - but I refuse to give them credit they don't deserve. I've read plenty of posts where people have said that they knew something was off - and they were waiting for the opportunity to leave. Yes it was a complicated decision - but it was a decision all the same. A decision many if not most of us made on our own.

Just who is "we" here"? I never experienced this nail-biting and waiting for some ghost from Christmas future. I didn't know anyone else who did either. You would do better to speak in much less general terms. It's not honest to do otherwise. You can certainly speak for yourself. You can even say that there are others like you. But to say "we" like it's all the posters at GSC who acted and felt the same way is almost arrogantly presumptuous. BTW - I am not awaiting death - I am enjoying watching my children mature and grow - and OH BTW - I never did wait for "the adversary" to come for me and I never agonized over such a thought set.

The day after I left twi, I got up, fed my family, went to work, came home and made dinner - then cleaned up and slept very well. Maybe I should post something like "we all got up, fed our families, went to work, came home and made dinner - then cleaned up and slept very well." Oh wait... I can't do that - because then I wouldn't be speaking just for myself- I'd be projecting my situation on EVERYBODY ELSE. Now that wouldn't be honest, would it?

Relax, Dooj, I was simply discussing the extremes and experiences of myself, my spouse and the people that we had contact with. Biblical sounding teachings to excuse and encourage extreme, offensive, unpleasant and at times dangerous behavior. Thus the *we* mentioned and my opinion as to why it led to mental illness...shrug

So, what were the voices we were hearing?

I don't believe it was God almighty giving us *revelation* . . . . i.e. exposing someone's deepest, darkest, and most personal secrets for sport. . . . . or telling us what brand of soap to buy. Not even revealing the *color* of someone's heart. Remember that? Now we are getting into seeing things.

Maybe it was just some kind of inner dialogue with ourselves? That can be very real.

I am sure there were times it turned out to be right. . . . but, I don't think that is proof of anything. People give off signals. . . body language. . . . micro expressions. . . .interests, what they read, focus on, speak of. . . and we watched others. We were on guard. Paranoid enough to spy on each other in the name of *Spiritual perception and awareness*.

We spent a great deal of time in each others lives without proper boundaries. . . most of us were conditioned to believe we needed to know *spiritual* details about others.

People were hurt, marriages destroyed, children turned out from homes. . . we can even pinpoint an era termed the *Homo Purge*. . . . hello?

I think God has little to do with any of this.

I completely agree geisha

Well, I`d say that the way they made *attention to detail* an excuse to indulge in obsessive or controlling behavior, being *spiritually angry* to excuse fits of rage, *renewed mind* to encourage the shutting out of any contrary thoughts or individuality, obedience to leaders even when it was to our disadvantage or even dangerous could certainly lead us into unhealthy mental state.

Yeah, I`d say that we became unable to make our own decisions, completely giving all power over to others, agonizing self recriminations whenever things went wrong because we were taught that we had blown it some how, always anxious trying to out manuver the adversary.

The fact that we spent years after leaving awaiting the death and destruction from the adversary promised us...agonizing over where God wanted us to be and what was his will, unable to fit into the community, kind of gives one an idea the extent of the damage inflicted.

(((Grand daughter)) You put into words what so many of us have felt but cannot express. The longing to be good to be acceptable to God.

Our stories are different, but that same sense of not being good enough, of unworthiness has plagued me also.

Did you have a rough day or something?

I really don't know how to help you other than to tell you my "take" on TWI and the people who involved themselves in the organization. Most of us became involved with the best of intentions. We didn't plan to hand over our lives to a few sick fuks and some are very angry that it happened and what that has made their lives look like.

Whether a person finds their voice here is largely determined by them.

I think that this is well said tzaia.

We aren`t qualified to fix or heal one another, but like waysider said, be darned if I didn`t manage to find healing here.

Talking about what happened with other folks realizing that I was allowed to question, allowed to have a say in my life, in my marriage, in the raising of my kiddos...it was empowering. Without these discussional forums, I don`t know that I would have ever could have been able move on past the narrow confines of twi thinking.

Yeah Grand daughter, I do. Not as often any more, most of the time it is around the end of july, roa time.

In most I am at the roa looking for old friends, I am always hoping that things have changed, that maybe we could go back. Sometimes I dream that I am on the wow field devistated to realize that I don`t believe it any more ... that I still have to fulfill my comittment of one year to God...lol one time during this dream, God told me that I was going to witness for him and secretly get people out .. one time we led a commando raid on hq to rescue mrs. W...etc

Things trigger my dreams, topics here bring back unresolved issues....but as time passes, as I experience more life, the dreams grow more infrequent. You will too.

No one was psycho analyzing you, that`s a pretty silly claim.... I have to say that it does seems rather ironic that you point your finger of accusation at folks who participate here as doing something wrong or unsavory....that you are some how an expert, qualified to analyze, judge, and condemn folks....somehow omnipotent in determining what good is or is not being derived from Grease spot.

What are your qualification to make these assessments Clay? What makes you think that it is your position to determine where God works and with whom?

Why would you want to obstruct the benefits others find in this venue?

Your insults and derision aside, my sadness for the limited scope of your understanding of what is accomplished and the caliber of the folks here was genuine.

Have you ever wondered what good is *the movement of God`s word*? I mean seriously, isn`t it the folks doin that who seem to feel the most entitled to ensnare, enslave, steal from, and violate using the name of God as their power source and the scriptures to justify their behavior?

Doesn`t it seem like people keep trying to do the same thing most of the time with the best of intentions, whether it be twi of stfi over and over using the same formula and innocent people keep getting hurt?

Maybe we have the formula wrong, or maybe the focus on US *moving the word* is misplaced.

Yeah, what THEY said....

Comparing participation here with the horrors of what was inflicted on us in the name of God, excusing the atrocities committed with scriptural justification that happened in twi shows a lack of compassion and understanding for folks and the devistation that resulted from these monsters sating their sick apetites :(.

We spent decades subjected to this crap, carefully groomed to accept it and believe in the necessity of such abuse. It may take a life time to sort it all out.

Clay, I think that your post said an awful lot about how far you yourself need to go in your post twi recovery.

Forgive me, but you seem stalled fella, unable to examine, analyze learn and grow, forever spinning your wheels in an attempt to live within the parameters of the prison constructed from the faulty doctrines of some very disturbed men.

It takes much examination and consideration to recognize and come to grips with the fallacies of what we were taught.

I am truly sad for you being stuck, forever unable to move beyond the boundaries of your religion :(

I am glad that you all are getting better. Gosh it is scary to read about this stuff.

I have bad asthma too Bramble, but have never gotten a flu shot due to spouses distrust of vaccines. How did the x ray turn out?

I think that I`ll break down and get this shot. I`ll have to wait for the current chest cold to abate though.

How are you guys all doing?

Are you feeling any better yet?

Glad that she is ok and that she has gotten something to help. Pretty damned scary when our babies are hurting.

Well, I don`t know about physical violence to others, but within the family, that I was told (and believed) to never give my husband a *reason* to lift a hand to me, that if he ever were to resort to violence, undoubtedly that it was my fault. I hadn`t known when to shut up, or hadn`t been sharp or whatever.

You got em. Sorry that you are having such a tough time ((((potato&kiddos))))

Continuing in prayer with you.

I don't know about you but I am so glad to know certain truths like:

Jesus is not God

The dead are not alive

I can pray perfectly

God is always good

God's Word is true

I will meet the Lord in the air...

anybody else?

Not me, I guess that the only *truths* that I know and care about any more are pretty simple, love God and love my neighbor :) Anything else seems to me to be extraneous and a distraction.

What do you think?