Pete

Twinky Just to add a gruesome note: Hung, drawn and quartered: I understand that after hanging them they were taken down from the scaffold while they were still alive and their entrails were then "drawn out" in front of their eyes before their heads were chopped off and then their bodies were cut into quarters. If you've seem the film "Braveheart" this is what is depicted at the end, although you don't actually see them drawing out his entrails in the scene. This was a punishment for treason and only done to men. Yikes! (Some say that they also had their genitals cut off). So looks like S_addams getting off lightly, then. PS Of course the film was Braveheart, the character was William Wallace and the actor was Mel Gibson

WhiteDove Yes its actually on the 25th - don't forget to send a card, OK! Pete PS DOB 25 March 1951

Mary Poppins Hope you have a jolly holiday in Finland and welcome to the European area! :) It's interesting to hear your side of the story. Did you hang out with Trendy then? I thought WIGB owned Gartm0re? But you say there was a split between WIGB and Gartm0re. How did that work, then? Do you mean a split between WIGB and CG? I was on the CG side of the fence back then, but we weren't told not to have anything to do with TWI as far as I remember. We just hung out with the CG crowd. Then there was another disruption when JL came along - we were told not to have anything to do with him, and definitely NOT to read his letter. Anyone who read his letter was in BIG trouble because they'd had their minds POISONED. OMG! You'll have to tell us about Finland. Are you meeting HP, EP & family? Ex10 is busy with a BBQ so she might not be on here right now. Hope she saves me some ribs! Nice to see you here, say hi to L. Cheers! Pete

You can check out some court records at the following site: http://court-records-search.org There is a record for CG in the state of Maine (ME), however this would almost certainly be purely innocent information. It should also cover any arrests for the state of Maine. I haven't checked it out personally. There is an initial fee of $39.95 if anyone wants to pay for the privilege. Not sure of there are any further fees after you've paid up for this - has anyone out there used the service? There's also a record for VP in the state of Ohio, but again you have to pay $39.95 up front for the privilege of seeing it. Cheers Pete

At the time, I didn't know much about what was going on. These issues were not talked about as it was considered unedifying. As far as I was aware, the Way in Great Br1tain was subservient to the Way Internat1onal. Robert W1lkinson was answerable to VP. At least you would think that given the public face presented. I personally never thought of CG as having left TWI. The problem was between personalities at the top as far as I knew. CG never publically criticised Craig or the BOTs other than what was said in POP, and the subsequent follow ups. He didn't exhibit the same kind of ranting that Craig let off. In fact I believe he deliberately avoided lashing into Craig and others. There was never a choice (as far as I am aware) for people at twig level who weren't accredited Corps, and if there was a choice to be made, it was never communicated to me. As far as I remember, there were very few people who actually graduated from the Corps in Gartmore. I remember one year that three people got to read out from their thesis (I think) at a meeting and I gathered from this that they were the only three to graduate that year, but I could be wrong on that. One of them was my WOW sister. I don't have much to do now with people who are still with CG. I get a sick feeling in my gut whenever I'm near one of them. I'm not sure if my WOW sister is still with CG. Since I haven't had much to do with them in the past 5+ years I've lost touch with what some of them are up to now. Maybe I'll talk to Mike R and get the lowdown. Watch this space.

I think that Chris announced on a tape that he was planning on resigning from the WIGB and gave his reasons why on the tape. I'll try and dig out the tape if I can find it. If I can find it, I may be able to send you a partial transcript. However, you have to realise that although Chris was technically an employee, he was pretty much considered by most people to be the man at the top in Europe. So when he left he took some of the European Corps with him. If I remember right he claimed that the WIGB were looking for a reason to dismiss him, or at least that was the only reason that he could think of for them behaving the way they did, so he decided to pre-empt this by leaving first. I never heard anything about Chris being arrested in the UK. I've heard second hand that one of the girls who was in residence at Gartm0re was subject to abuse but I've never heard that Chris was involved with this. She lives in the States now and it's difficult to talk to her because she doesn't want to talk much. I was never resident in Gartm0re, but I did go up for a few classes and things, including Chris's live Advanced Class. I'm totally in favour of bringing everything out into the open, but we have to be careful to be sure that rumours can be substantiated by first hand accounts.

Whitedove Sorry for the delay in responding to your previous post. My friend, I never mentioned anything about an imaginary world. I was, of course referring to your apparent inability to take on board new ideas, which is a legitimate use of the word 'imagination'. However, you seem to have decided just to twist the meaning to suit your own purposes and to try and have a cheap laugh at someone else's expense. If I have in some way offended you personally, this was not my intention and if this is the case than I offer my sincere aplogies. I am more interested in being involved in a legitimate debate over some very important issues than getting involved a personal slanging match with you. Perhaps we can try to be less inflamatory in future correspondence as I'm sure we both have important things to bring to this forum and we deserve to treat each other with a bit more respect. Peace? :)

Welcome, Twinky. Glad to see you in here. The guinness is very cold here, and the greetings are very warm. That's the way it should be. :)

WhiteDove Well, my friend, I did read your post, and I read it very carefully, so you should be careful about those little suppositions. You have no imagination or you would understand what I'm writing. Anyway, hope you have a nice life, all the same. By the way, you might want to watch out for those distribution companies that operate mind-control techniques on their followers ... how do they do that, I wonder? Cheers Pete

White Dove I think your logic needs considering in greater depth. A distibution company that distributes materials that are written by the owner of the distribution company. Ehrm, you might like to give that a second thought. The company's not responsible for the material, even though the owner of the company writes the materials? I think that there is a flaw in your logic somewhere. If they were just distributing bibles, then your logic might stand. but the material being distributed is most certainly NOT independent literature. So they do have a lot of responsibility for what they are distributing. You're telling me that he has no responsibility for what he's written? Please clarify.

I was there, my friend, I couldn't even consider that someone else might be just trying to help me - I was told that "you wouldn't drink from that glass if I told you there was poison in it, would you?". Well then, you shouldn't listen to what so 'n' so has to say then. Is that right, then! Or are you just trying to cover something up! We have every right to ask questions, particularly on behalf of our brothers and sisters who we should rightly show a concern for. Not turn our backs and ignore where they are heading. Ezekiel Chapter 3 comes to mind. We have every right for an open and frank discussion on some of the very serious issues that have come to light. It is not "we" who are "in denial". We have every right to ask questions and to expect that those questions be answered publicly. Not in private and "you mustn't mention this to anyone else" as is the practice in certain groups. Yes it's OK for the people at the top to know certain things but those who are less well "initiated" mustn't know until they've "committed" themselves a bit more (not to God or Christ, by the way - they were already commited to them, maybe, from the start). No they have to commit themselves to some organisation or another. Then when they've got to a certain level where they've "got something to lose" either financially or socially, then we'll start to filter in some of the more difficult aspects of "the business" and see if they will hack it. Here's a question I've wanted to ask for a long time and I've just got to let it go - how come TWI stepped in and tried to replace the Godly appointed ministries of two of the foremost leaders of our era: they tried to replace them with their own "organisation". An organisation that falsely claimed to have it's own ministerial appointment (the Way "ministry"). Never does the Lord operate this way - it was a big mistake and cost some people their lives. So it's not surprising that we don't want this happening again to any more of our brothers or sisters. Oh no, you say, everything's so lovey dovey down here - well, you'd better be sure you're right because the consequences may not be happy ones. Good job I love you all or I'd really get mean! Is this loosely on topic, or what? Hope you guys don't mind me blowing off a bit of steam here. You can hack me down, now.

Hi there JohnIam I'm real glad to hear that there's some love in your fellowship. We need a lot of love, my friend. Maybe we should also be sure that our love permeates beyond our meetings and into our lives in general, even when we're posting on Greasespot. Wish I could really get the hang of it. Anyway, I seem to remember reading somewhere that love is supposed to be "without dissimulation"? So it's not surprising that people are concerned about this. Because some people have proved themselves to be hypocrites, because they preach one thing but practice another. And that can't be healthy, can it? Not accusing you, my friend, not at all. But if people are gong to be hypocrites, you don't want to keep that a secret, do you? So why the need for sooooooo many secrets. I seem to remember JC calling a few people hypocrites. Wonder why he didn't brush it under the carpet. Hmmmmm, makes you think, doesn't it? Well, it makes me think, anyway.

Pinklady I cannot give you specific advice because I don't know all the details of the situation and I am not trained in this field. I am sure that there is someone on the greasespot forum who has some related experience and I hope that they will come forward and offer you their help. However, my own general advice would be, don't blame yourself for the situation and try to stay peaceful within yourself. Do not be anxious to resolve the issue but have patience and be prepared to stand away from the front-line when you are out of your depth. At that time, let God comfort you and know that he has not abandoned you. Do not act hastily, be patient and get as much advice as you can before taking action. It is alright to seek Justice, but it is wrong to seek Vengeance. Justice is for ALL. Even those who are in the wrong need the opportunity to be forgiven and to start on a different path from the one they have followed. Christ tells us that we must love our enemies. But if people do not want your help, that's their problem. Don't misunderstand me: the law must still be applied to people, even after you have personally forgiven them and if appropriate they must still answer for their crimes to the state. Always try to stay calm and respectful towards others and be prepared to walk away from situations where you find yourself feeling aggressive. No point you having to justify your own mistakes if you let things get out of control. You need to stay composed and confident in what you are doing. Mr G@@r apparently says that he is not responsible for the actions of his licensees. Well, of course, he is right: how can anyone be responsible for another person's actions. However, he is responsible for his OWN actions, and he should consider very carefully what HIS actions are going to be as a result of your complaint. Is the man totally out of touch with reality, that his response seems so offhand! Seems to me that someone is hiding behind semantics. Not a surprise at all. Some people have a great deal of experience in hiding things behind semantics. So it should be no surprise. There are obviously things that are more important to Mr G@@r than investigating your complaint, one of which, I imagine, is his own bank balance. Of course, that's just my opinion based on years of experience. If my opinion is wrong, show me why! Added: Sorry folks, this is getting a bit off topic - will mail you direct, PL.

Dot Matrix There were/are people a lot higher up in some of those organisations who are perfectly innocent, but like me they were/are just naive and easily manipulated. They are nice people. I have no problem with them because I was there. I cannot condemn people who only do what I did myself, how can I? These are my honest opinions now. If anyone knows differently, let him speak up. You have to be careful to be sure that it's God first. If the organisation is first or the leader, you're on sticky ground. You cannot write to them and expect a considered response because they do not consider your reasonings valid. After all, God's going to tell THEM first. Except they have already put their organisation ahead of God. In the O/T it was known as idolatory. So there's no way of explaining to them that they're going in the wrong direction with some of their doctrine, it's not easy, anyway. Pinklady: I'm sorry to hear that you have been through such a turmoil. You are not alone - others have been treated in a similar way. Typical letter ... many sent out with similar tones. Designed to manipulate and intimidate. Don't let this guy think he's getting away with it. We're on to him. Did he tell you not to share the contents of the letter with anyone else and to return the letter to him after you'd read it? I could post more on that organisation, but I have to consider whether it's worth getting kneecapped first. Oh yes it's known to his followers that threats of physical violence have been made against those that stand in his way. Very Christ-like, I'm sure. JohnIam : did you read POP. It's absolutely implicit in that book that Mr G@@r is the new MOG. This is interpreted that way by his commited followers. Other ministers are derided because "they did not go with the Man of God". And does he correct his followers for thinking this way? How can he when he has set them up to believe it! Can you see how people are being manipulated. And regarding A/S: Mr G@@r is way intelligent enough to know that the Way's teaching on A/S is unscriptural. But does he correct the wrong teaching? Why should he! No, not when the cash is already flowing in. Why risk fyunking things up? At one point I believed that so long as people were helping to make the Word known, it didn't matter if they were autocrats, businessocrats or ministerocrats. But you know what is written, I'm sure: regarding elders in 1Tim 3 that they should be blameless ... of good behaviour, given to hospitality ... of good report .... etc. I think not, mr G@@r, why have you taken it upon yourself to deceive so many? Do you not know that a recompense will be required? This is Pete signing out.

You might like to add the name of the Way in Great Britain, which changed it's name to Christian Counselling and Teaching in 1997. After the departure of the "coach driver", they were no longer able to steer their vehicle properly and lost a lot of passengers. You might be interested to know that in 1998 the organisation was down to a mere £19,312 received as abundant sharing. It's total income for the year was only £50,197 including AS, classes, book sales, conferences and interest. In spite of this, it was able to pay it's "leader" (Rob@rt Wi1kinson) renumeration and benefits to the sum of £56,047. His wife also received a salary of £22,000, a joint income for the Wilkinson family of some £77,047. Explain to me how these figures work? Also, I find this all a bit confusing, since Mr W1lkinson had told me that he received no income for his work, and worked on a voluntary basis. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't paying yourself an income in contradiction of the Articles of Association of the Company? You might also like to ask Rob@rt the question "What happened to the proceeds from the sale of G@rtmore House?". You guys with V1nce F1nnegan can probably get hold of him as V1nce seems to have welcomed him with open arms since he "fled" to the States. I wonder how much of the money has ended up in V1nce's coffers? Oh, yes and I do have proof that money/assets were transferred to the States before Mr W1lkinson fled there. Not my honest opinion guys, just some plain facts and questions. Draw your own conclusions.

Paw Our main visit is to relatives near Carrickmacross. Thats just south of Monaghan. My missus knows a few people in Monaghan, though. If you PM me any names I'll ask if she knows them. The funny thing about Ireland is that if you talk to a complete stranger for long enough, eventually you'll find somebody that you both know. This always seems to work. Also, a lot of the ex-Way folk are from well known families, so it's not unusual for people to have heard of them. We were in County Clare on holiday about 3 years ago on the coast north of Lisdoonvarna, but we don't really know people there. ( Breaks into song : "Oh, Lisdoonvarna, Lisdoon, Lisdoon, Lisdoon, Lisdoonvarna........"). Know a few folk in Galway though. Another funny thing about Ireland, if you've been abroad and developed a bit of a tan, when you go back to Ireland and take a trip out on the beach, the sun there actually bleaches away your tan! Not many people know that. Are your family from Ireland? Pete

Hey, I didn't even know they served Guinness in here! Now that I know, I'll visit more often! Just remembered - visiting Ireland next weekend so will make a point of hauling over some of the Irish guys to join us for one! That should get the party rolling! Pete

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Paw for setting up this Forum. Thanks Paw. If there's anyone else in here, welcome to Greasespot Europe! If you like you could maybe post a short reply to this thread to say Hi. No pressure, you're welcome to just hang around in the background if you prefer, OK! :) Cheers, Pete

Wait till you see where they put the battery.

Yeah ...... but if only I could find a girl like that ......

This is specially for likeaneagle Hope it's a good year! Cheers Pete

Jonny You do not understand because you are obviously an emotional heathen! No doubt but you put tomato sauce and mustard on your souvlaki too.

When a woman is deeply in love with you, she looks at you in a certain way, a way that cannot be denied, and I think that is the sexiest thing about a woman. (OK it helps if she's got big h****rs). Pete

Dear Dot Matrix First of all I have to say that the Church this man is involved with is mishandling this particular passage of scripture. The passage about God clothing the lilies of the field is in the context of not being anxious about things and has nothing to do with birth control or having children. You might like to explain this to him. You might as well say that I shouldn't be concerned if I .... in my pants because I couldn't be bothered to go to the John. Hey, just don't worry about it, dude! Secondly, let's distill this down to the fundamentals. Love God first, and love your neighbour as yourself! Ask him if he really thinks he's loving his neighbours by expecting them to financially support his children? No, he has to support his own family and not be a burden to others. I would give my opinion here that the Bible doesn't need to lay down specific rules in this area because many times things are down to individual needs and circumstances. So if he wants children he should work and not be a burden to his neighbour. Extending the passage on "if a man doesn't work neither should he eat" as has already been mentioned by pond, it is a logical consequence that if the man doesn't eat, neither do his kids. that's not so good for his kids, Eh? Peter

Goey I just wanted to say that I agree pretty much with the things you said and wanted to emphasize something that you hinted at. When the beginning of 'Genesis' was written, the world had many so called "Gods". So 'Genesis' emphasises that it was "the one true God" that did all these things. That is the emphasis of 'Genesis'. And God said........., etc In addition, I would like to add the following for you to ponder on..... The time when this was written, the people reading it would have no understanding of science in the way that you or I do. So the beginning of 'Genesis' emphasises that it was God that was there in the beginning and that it was He that created and made all that there is (as opposed to the many false gods of the day). There is no detail because the people of the time would simply have no knowledge of the concepts involved. The people reading the book would recognise that this passage is figurative, because of the way that it is written. They may not have been scientifically advanced, but they had much sharper skills in interpreting the verbal and written styles and systems of the day. They would not find it strange that evening and morning occur before the firmanent is established, because they would understand that this is a figurative passage made to emphasize that it was "the true God" who did all these things. They would not have trouble understanding that day and night are not established until the fourth day because they know that the passage is a figurative representation. These pointers indicate to the listener that the passage is not a literal account. The use of the "seven days" is indicative of a poetic structure, not a literal one. They would not have trouble understanding this. We only have trouble understanding it because we try to apply the rules of modern language styles and systems to something that was written for a different time, generation and culture. These passages also speak of spiritual matters and put them in a figurative way. Again, it would be known that these are a representation of deeper spiritual matters which are not largely expanded on in the passage itself. So, when you apply this to the passage in question, it makes things much clearer. However, if you are in any doubt, then let it be said that these are only my own opinions based largely on conjecture. Truth Peter