Pete

"Don't cross the beams!!!"

Thanks for all your replies. Well, we shouldn't be afraid any more to confront this type of egotistical thinking. On the other hand, just because it's not revelation that they are receiving doesn't make God any weaker (in my view). I too had once booked a first class seat on the ego train heading for Ego City (yikes! sound just like VP when I say that! ). So I don't find it difficult to understand how easy it is for someone to be overtaken by the ego train (or should that be "taken over"?). And unlike "those who would ride freely on the mystery train", the ego train costs (watch "Fame" if you don't believe me :) ). I really believe that it has taken a lot of healing to get back on the right track. I can imagine how difficult this is for people if they don't understand why they are sick! And just imagine the scenario where one ego maniac tries to diagnose the trouble in another ego maniac. They'll just end up justifying one another and passing the blame on to others. Thanks for letting me have my 2 cents worth!

When VP was due to teach in an area, he sent some of his people out into the community in secret ahead of his teaching to suss out the scene. Then, when he taught, he could surprise people by pulling all this information out of his "magic" hat. And it looked very impressive when he did it. If you don't believe me, ask Charlie Qu1llen. He was one of the goons. He used a similar tactic on me once, and I've heard from another greasespotter that he appears to have used this tactic on them (although the person concerned is still convinced that he got it via revelation from above). Anyone else experience this? On the other hand, has anyone got evidence/experience of any genuine revelation?

Oldskool I'm really pleased that this has worked out for you and for your family. Thanks for posting, and well done! Pete

Well, I watched the film this weekend and I have to tell you that in my opinion it was distinctly average. In fact, I fell asleep after 1 hour and had to watch the rest the following day. There was a moral to the story, but the story line was a bit too simplistic for me. Maybe for someone involved in politics it would have been better viewing? Close to the knuckle? The story line might have worked better in a 30 min series, but, for me, not so well in a motion picture. However, watching Ge0rge Cl00ny getting arrested was very watchable and, if his actions are sincere, highly commendable. Cheers Pete

We did WOW training today at my place of work. Very strange to hear people saying "I'm just going down for WOW training". A bit too freaky for me, to tell the truth. In this case, WOW stands for "Ways of Working". I'm going to check out if they plan to introduce an Advanced Class or Corps training. I graduated from my first PFAL class on March 15th 1978, "The Ides of March". I hear that's a good film, but haven't seen it myself. Anyone like it?

So, what was all this about "left field" at HQ. Were you ever out in "left field"? Was it one of those "blind spots" that were OK with the "higher powers"? Did you have to get permission to go, or could anyone sneak out there on a night? Could you go solo or did you need a partner? Another thing, did any of you think that the exegesis on the Humpty Dumpty nursery rhyme was a bit wierd when you first sat through PFAL? I nearly freaked out when I heard that. But in my heart I wanted the class to be the right thing. So I rationalised it. My thinking at the time was maybe along the lines that this was a test to see just how committed I was. You can rationalise a lot of things that way. It was difficult to ask the class coordinator a suitable question on that one "Pe33y: Is the Humpty Dumpty thing a loyalty test, or has the old man just flown over the cuckoo's nest?". What would you say? I can understand someone claiming divine guidance on the interpretation of scripture, but when you effectively infer divine guidance on the interpretation of a nursery rhyme, this is a bit hard to go with, even for a desparate loner seeking someone to help make sense of his pathetic existence.

Kit got yer tongue? :) Come on, spit it out buddy.

Hi Twinky Thank you for your kind thoughts, which are gladly received. And I trust that you are making the best of the moment also, Happy Christmas-time and I hope the new year brings good things for you. Hi Waysider A happy time to you also. Unfortunately, I've never previously heard of the Electric Prunes. For some reason, they must have gone right by me (or should that be right through me?). Nice recording on the link. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I have more thoughts on the way. Maybe I've had "too much to think"? I can feel a sudden release of thoughts coming on. Let's hope they'll prove to be of benefit to the hearers hereafter.

I'm drinking too much (caffeine free diet coke), according to my missus. Maybe I should switch to straight Scotch? Or should she look more closely at the label? Personally, I've never misread anything; I declare that I always get it right first time. I never question anything that I've been taught, or believe, as I'm so good at getting everything right first time. Some of you out there know exactly what I mean. I'm so pleased with myself to be part of the more superior intellectually minded of you. I pity the poor plebs who have to undergo critical appraisal before they feel free to present their views or work. After all, who needs others when they are simply and utterly infallible. If I listened to every reasonable and common thought that I was presented with, I could never hope to achive ultimate and dominant personal hero worship cum stardom. It's been suggested that, alternatively, I could listen to the voice of unadulterated reason and give myself a "check up from the neck up", to quote one of my illustrious forebears. Said, perhaps, but not necessarily applied (although, nevertheless, valued). And so it goes on, ad infinitum, unto the edge of reason. Does anyone get this? Signing out: Pete. Amendment No 1. P.S. Idiots need not respond.

In the Way, we were discouraged from using the word "Christmas" because the word meant "Mass for Christ". However, I've since found out that this policy could not be justified from the scriptures. In fact, the opposite is inferred by the epistles. When I was younger, I remember that certain people had tried to avoid having to say the word "Christ" by changing "Christmas" to "Xmas". It seems that the word "Christ" grates on some peoples lips. However, the Way said that you can't take "Christ" out of "Christ"-mas, because he was never there to start with. Whereas that is a matter of subjective fact, it is not ALL that there is to say on the subject. It was certainly embarrasing to have to greet your relatives with "Happy Household Holidays" and look for cards that didn't have the word "Christmas" on them. "Season's Greetings" seemed to be OK at the time. The truth of the matter is that we should just be glad that Christ is acknowledged at all !!! - don't you think? All I succeded in doing by adopting this hard-hearted mentality was to put a stumbling block in people's path that made it more difficult for them to see the truth. Maybe I should have been a little bit more circumspect in my attitude!

WD Thank you for leaving the JT thread. You can now continue to hock you bunkum in peace on your own thread, and good luck to you. Cheers Pete

Here we go again, indeed. WD: on reflection, perhaps my use of the word "right" was a bit inconsidered, particularly from a Brit to a Colonial, where the word may have slightly stronger connotations for you. However, if I can rephrase this, I am intending to imply that your intention is to dissuade people from posting statements that disagree with your personal view point. This is more than corroborated by your comments above where you do indeed appear to be saying that you should only post an opinion when it is "absolute fact" ??? Am I reading you right ? If so, this in itself questions people who are voicing anything that doesn't conform to your personal view of what is an "absolute fact". Opinion may consist of viewpoints that are subjective and consequently cannot be expected to conform to your "absolute fact" criterion. Since you wish to take my comments as a personal affront, I'd have to respond to you by saying that I'm not at all concerned how you feel about the fact that a particular statement didn't impress me, in fact it is entirely irrelevent. It still doesn't impress me and I think that you may be able to take that as an absolute fact, although I'm not entirely sure what your idea of an "absolute fact" is, but have the horrible premonition that another protracted definition is about to follow. God help us !

With no disrespect intended to other posters whose input is highly valued: The Bible says that "By their fruits you shall know them". Personally, I would take this as an indication that we are to take responsibility for weighing things up ourselves, particularly what we see in other people's lives (RD being a case in point). If this is the case, surely it follows that we don't need judge or jury to pass sentence. In fact, doesn't the Bible tell believers to avoid going to court before unbelievers since we should have enough wise men amongst ourselves? I see no harm in posters stating their concerned opinions as a basis for discussion by others. If you don't agree with what is said, you have an absolute right to respond, but preferably in a measured and diplomatic manner. Questioning someone's right to voice their honest concerns doesn't impress me at all. Please do not post something here for the purpose of distorting or derailing the thread, just because you don't like something that's been said. If you don't want to add constructively to the thread, go post somewhere else! So, to look at the fruits produced in peoples lives is not some Greasespot initiative, but it is God's initiative. I would hope that most people posting here have enough self control and character to ensure that they post in a decent manner and avoid misleading assumptions, but surely we must be able to make representation here without formal legal substantiation?

You might be walking by the senses if ... You think that your failure to walk on water had anything to do with gravity or surface tension. (Don't tell me you never tried it !!!)

I've just checked the Lamsa article and have to correct what I said earlier. Lamsa quotes similar expressions that are still in use, but not that specific one. So it could be taken as speculation on his part. I have no problem, therefore, with the biblical account about the coin (shekel) in the mouth of the fish, but as Wordwolf says, it is the padding that Pillai (and others) are putting around it that is the problem. It's possible that Pillai heard about this by word of mouth - he doesn't mention that he had any first hand experience. So it could have been just an "Urban Myth" as has been mentioned before. Just to mention a story that was told to me as if it was true: the story about the guy who purchases a Winnebago with cruise control. Shortly after he joins the freeway on his first journey in the brand new vehicle, he turns on the cruise control, and then pops into the back to make a cup of tea! Of course, the story is just an urban myth, there's no record that this actually happened. But when I was first told the story, it was hard not to believe that it actually happened, I mean you'd sort of want to believe that the story just had to be true! However, if anyone else knows otherwise ................

Thanks, those are interesting links and seem to add weight to the possibility that a literal coin was found. I especially liked the "St Anthony" search engine! (St Anthony is the Catholic patron saint of lost items).

This topic has been branched off the "Way Tree" thread. Some of what was taught by TWI came from KC Pillai's teachings. However, it appears that KC was just making some of it up to fill the spaces. Take for example the account in Matthew about the fish with the coin in it's mouth. + Pillai says there is an actual fish that finds real money in lakes, swallows it, and keep it in a bag in its mouth. Some fishermen even today become rich if they catch this fish.

Hi guys I'm going to start a new thread for the K C Pillai issue. I have my serious suspicions that some of what Pillai taught was just made up to fill the spaces. I'll post a comment about the fish with the coin in it's mouth on the new topic. Mike: you can come and post there too if you like, as soon as you've got your foot out of your mouth. Pete

Bolshevik I wrote to the B. G. Leonard group about the VPW plagiarism thing. They did not address VPW specifically, but sent the following reply (which effectively does not lend any support to VPW but seems to imply by omission that his actions were not approved) : 01/08/03 "Dear Brother ****** Greetings to you in The Name of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! Enclosed is a gift of one of Rev. B. G. Leonard's books (With other information that we provide here from Christian Training Centre of Texas) on the subject "Gospel of Grace". On the eighth page from the front of the book with the heading that says, "AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE RE REV. B. G. LEONARD'S BOOKS FROM THE AUTHOR TO YOU" Brother Leonard makes it clear concerning the issue of plagiarism and what God's Word says about this matter! I, Sister Evelyn, Mrs B. G. Leonard, continue to fulfill this same fact and truth. If you are interested in any more of Brother Leonard's works that God gave him which he walked in throughout his life in the ministry please feel free to contact us. God bless you for your interest in furthering the work of The Lord Jesus Christ! Sincerely in God's Love, President - Rev. Evelyn T-Leonard (Mrs B. G. Leonard)" The message makes it clear that B. G. took a very strong line against those who plagiarised his books. He quotes the following bible verse: Jeremiah 23:30 "Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour." He also states that this has happened "from the first appearance of my books" (the book "Gifts of the Spirit" was first published in 1949). You might also like to consider whether the following prophecy has come to pass upon those who stole his words: Jeremiah 23:40 "And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame which shall not be forgotten." Scary, huh!

Paw I don't know about that. I'd heard that he had some material that VP had given to him, but I only heard this second hand. Many congratulations for the new site layout. It looks fab! Pete

YIdon'tgotochurch A few years on from what you experienced, I seem to remember that the Way Tree class was criticised because it wasn't taught in a way that demonstrated any sound scriptural basis for the ideas involved. But perhaps it had evolved at that stage from what you had previously seen (and may well have been good ideas at the beginning) to something much more corporate in it's application. When I heard it I personally came to the conclusion that the Way Tree was essentially non-scriptural and more of a corporate structure set up by men. As I recall, it seemed to me that they had tried to bend at least one scripture that even the most hardened follower would find hard to swallow as a basis for a "Way Tree", as it had become at that time. So, I suppose that they had no choice but to drop the class, although they continued to teach and operate the principles, nevertheless. One argument that was given to support the Way Tree doctrine at that time: - "they are spiritual men, so don't you think that they know what they're doing?" In fact, that seems to be the dividing line with organisations where contentious decisions are made: you're confronted because you should recognise that decisions made by the "leaders" are spiritual ones and therefore, if you are a spiritual person, you should agree with them, or else get out of the way of those who do. And if you do choose to cross the "dividing line" and go along with this, it may be very difficult for you to get back again if you're wrong. Anyway, can I offer you another doughnut? It's on me. I like the custard ones. Mmmmmmmm.

Paw - sorry for the delay in replying - I've not done much internetting recently. Can't get on due to teenage daughter, etc. Will have to get a laptop, I think. OK, I've not really given you the full background from my point of view. At one point, RA Wilk..n stepped down as "spiritual leader" for TWIGB, although he continued as a director and had a house fellowship in Macclesfield, UK. I suppose I just assumed that everything was happening for a good reason and never thought for one minute that there was a lot of politics going on behind the scenes. C K*nt was a strong leader in TWIGB and had/has a lot of respect at grass roots level. He lived not far from Robert. Once when I spoke to him it became obvious that there was a problem between him and CG, although specifics weren't discussed. So RA Wil..n continued to take legal responsibility, although he presumably didn't want the spiritual responsibility (go figure it out, I can't). So CG was at that point effectively the spiritual leader for the UK and for the European Corps for anyone not directly linked to TWI, although technically, as an employee, he answered to RAW. CG started to issue weekly audio tapes from Gartm0re which came to replace the ones sent from TWI for many. This happened whilst he was still in the employ of the WIGB. He also distributed audio courses taught by himself, and books which he edited from VP's teachings. In addition, there were, at one time, live Advanced Classes taught by CG at Gartm0re which also included as part of the course recorded classes by WA Cumm1ns and (incredibly) LCM. There were many who felt a bond of fellowship to CG, and those who considered him to be the MOG. I think that "Future Considerations" was set up by CG whilst he was still employed by the WIGB. The original company was superseded by "Word Promotions", I think. I've also found that people who were close to what was going on are unwilling to discuss the details of what happened. Perhaps partly because we've always been taught not to magnify the negatives. Partly, perhaps, because they might themselves be incriminated by the facts, who knows? I'm going to have to go back and try and put some dates to these events so that they can be presented in chronological order. It's obviously very confusing just reading the above. I'll have to review this and put it in a more digestible form, but this goves you some of the background to be chewing on. Cheers Pete

Just an update on CGs resignation: the tape on which he announced his resignation was played at fellowship meetings and I believe that the tape had to be posted back to him after it had been played. That explains why I don't have a copy. The tape went into a few things but without really explaining all the facts. One thing mentioned was that the WIGB apparently told CG that he had to go for a meeting with them (possibly a disciplinary hearing?) on a date which they already knew he had planned to be out of the country, and he implies that they were doing this as an excuse to fire him when he didn't attend. So he was pre-empting their actions by resigning himself. According to RAW, CG was asking them to adopt policies that, if adopted, would result in the possiblity of the charities commission stepping in, closing down the company and seizing/transferring all their assets. I suppose that CG would benefit from this as he would mop up the loose believers after the WIGB was closed down, but this is just speculation on my part. Maybe RAW could fill in the missing pieces, although he wouldn't explain much to me over the phone when I asked him for all the details (that was some time ago). There was a meeting held by the WIGB at about that time to explain to people what was going on, but I didn't go as I was involved in a CG fellowship at the time and it was sort of a loyalty thing - anyone know anybody that was there?

Hmmm ....... I like the idea of being in charge of the beer. Alright then. Can't do it at our house as all the neighbours are too close and don't like everyone talking at 4 o'clock in the morning. I may have an alternative venue where we can all stay which has a big kitchen and a barbecue. I will check out some possible dates.