Abigail

I laughed pretty good at that, I admit thoughts of launching my shovel at the snowplow driver amid words not to be printed here. They only come once you are done with the driveway. Living in the UP of Michigan is all that for sure beautiful and miserable all at once.

Hey So! I'm a native yooper myself. Where up there did you live? You can PM me if you want, and you are by no means obligated to answering. :)

I was born in the Gladstone-Escanaba area.

Aug. 12 - Moved into our new home in Mich. It is so beautiful here. The hills and river valleys are so picturesque. I have a beautiful old oak tree in my front yard. Can hardly wait to see the change of seasons. This is truly God's Country.

Oct. 14 - Michigan is such a gorgeous place to live, one of the real special places on Earth. The leaves are turning a multitude of different colors. I love all of the shades of reds, oranges and yellows, they are so bright. I want to walk through all of the beautiful hills and spot some white tail deer. They are so graceful; certainly they must be the most peaceful creatures on Earth. This must be paradise.

Nov. 11 - Deer season opens this week. I can't imagine why anyone would want to shoot these elegant animals. They are the very symbol of peace and tranquility. I hope it snows soon. I l ove it here!

Dec. 2 - It snowed last night. I woke to the usual wonderful sight: everything covered in a beautiful blanket of white. The oak tree is magnificent. It looks like a postcard. We went out and swept the snow from the steps and driveway. The air is so crisp, clean and refreshing. We had a snowball fight. I won, and the snowplow came down the street. He must have gotten too close to the driveway because we had to go out and shovel the end of the driveway again. What a beautiful place. Nature in harmony. I love it here!

Dec. 12 - More snow last night. I love it! The plow did his cute little trick again. What a rascal. A winter wonderland. I love it here!

Dec. 19 - More snow - couldn't get out of the driveway to get to work in time. I'm exhausted from all of the shoveling. And that snowplow!

Dec. 21 - More of that white dang coming down. I've got blisters on my hands and a kink in my back. I think that the snowplow driver waits around the corner until I'm done shoveling the driveway. .....

Dec. 25 - White Christmas? More freakin' snow. If I ever get my hands on the sonofabitch who drives that snowplow, I swear I'll castrate him. And why don't they use more salt on these roads to melt this crap??

Dec. 28 - It hasn't stopped snowing since Christmas. I have been inside since then, except of course when that SOB "Snowplow Harry" comes by. Can't go anywhere, cars are buried up to the windows. Weather man says to expect another 10 inches. Do you have any idea how many shovelfuls 10 inches is??

Jan. 1 - Happy New Year? The way it's coming down it won't melt until the 4th of J uly! The snowplow got stuck down the road and the danghead actually had the balls to come and ask to borrow a shovel! I told him I'd broken six already this season.

Jan. 4 - Finally got out of the house. We went to the store to get some food and a goddamn deer ran out in front of my car and I hit the bastard. It did $5,000 in damage to the car. Those beasts ought to be killed. The hunters should have a longer season if you ask me.

Jan. 27 - Warmed up a little and rained today. The rain turned the snow into ice and the weight of it broke the main limb of the oak tree in the front yard and it went through the roof. I should have cut that old piece of dang into firewood when I had the chance.

May 23 - Took my car to the local garage. Would you believe the whole underside of the car is rusted away f rom all of that damn salt they dump on the road? Car looks like a bashed up, heap of rusted cow dang.

May 10 - Sold the car, the house and moved to Florida . I can't imagine why anyone in their freakin' mind would ever want to live in the God forsaken State of Michigan ..

Awwww, thanks. :)

Shellon, what would we do without you to remind us of the date??

My knees are nearly worn out praying for your sorry soul I don't give up though. . . and neither does God.

Is it possible the problem is one of terminology? I know (and anyone in TWI knows) different religious sects often have their own, unique terminology.

When I read the term "sorry soul" my initial gut reaction is that I have just been insulted. But within some Christian groups, everyone's soul is sorry and the phrase is not intended as an insult. I would also point out (in the interest of furthering a positive exchange here) that Geisha did not actually say she prayed for anyone's conversion, just that she prayed for your soul.

. . that Jesus is the only way to God. . . that there is eternal consequences to rejecting Him. . .

Geisha, what is it about Jesus that makes him the only way to God? Is it his name (Jesus)? If so, that seems quite limiting to those who might not speak English and pronounce it or spell it a different way. Is it his teachings? His lifestyle? His heart? Do you really think God has so boxed us and Himself in that it is as literal and black and white as that?

Is it possible that there is a conceptual thing within this Jesus, something bigger than the black and white that might be found within other religious groups (which are really just ways of labelling sets of beliefs)?

Think on this, even within Christianity there is great diversity of thought regarding who and what Jesus is/was. So, you are convinced your brand is correct and all others are wrong?

See, I think what happens at times, is one person states something that they mean with love and good intent, but is couched in religious terms that raise the hackles of someone else. Then the responses start flying and the one who spoke first gets defensive and things just spiral downhill from there.

I'm wondering if we could take a deep breath and look beyond the black and white - all the way around.

Rightside,

HERE IS ANOTHER LINK that may interest you. Feel free to PM me, if you'd like.

Oh give me a friggen break, Groucho! Starting your own website, with a specific purpose that is different from that of the cafe is NOT starting some freaking splinter group.

And I am NOT a member of their website, because I am not corps. Is this the greasespot cult then, if their website is a splinter group? :blink:

I just wanted to suggest, IMO, it is somewhat inappropriate to bring someone into this thread who is not posting here. Whatever Hope may have said in chat, she said to the people in chat. If she had wanted to say it in this thread, she could have come here and done so.

Equally important, whatever is said here is second hand information regarding what Hope said and may be somewhat inaccurate via misunderstanding and one's own personal perceptions.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled program. :)

You're on the money, Abbie, on all points above. And I rarely even read the threads any more, much less post, for the reasons you've given.

And I as well. Generally when I do post, it is in the 'tacks forum or the doctrinal forum. I have little interested in the About the Way forums anymore, unless I think I can offer some personal experience or perspective that may benefit another. I am by and large done with and over TWI. However, there are still many people who are not.

By the way, Abigail. If someone had saved your My Story posts, and if he were to put them back up on Greasespot, how would you feel, now that you have your new perspective? Would that be alright with you, or not? Do you still feel some justifiable relief that you got while the getting was good? Did those early choices here reflect your vulnerability to The Way, and would effectively rubbing your face in a mistake have helped you find your better, wiser self?

Or would you have just left?

I didn't delete the My Story posts because of TWI. I will PM with my reason for doing it, as I don't wish to open that can of worms publicly. That being said, I suspect if I had asked and explained my reasons, the moderators would have deleted it for me. I don't generally delete what I have written, this was a rare exception. I think Paw and the Moderators are willing to make exceptions, they simply don't want the exceptions to become the rule. At least, I hope that to be the case.

If someone put them back up now, I may be angered by it (afterall, I did delete them fair and square in the days when it was allowed ), but again, I would carry on. In fact, at this point I suspect it really wouldn't impact my life one way or another. I do realize, however, that may not be the case in someone else's situation.

If the posts had remained, it may have helped me become wiser regarding the internet more quickly than I did. And yes, I was newer then and more vulnerable. (In fact it can be interesting to go back and look at those early posts and realize just how far I have come.)

But again, as I have already said, I do believe leeway needs to be given to those who are new, to those who may not fully understand what can happen when you reveal personal information on the world wide web. But a decent number of us have been here long enough that at the very least, we ought to know what the consequences of such actions can be.

It exemplifies the attitude underlying that specific decision, and random but consistent day to day decisions, including the attitude and behavior of certain moderators in certain situations (some of whom may be friends, but who knows?), and the general permissiveness toward posts like Garth's taunt-filled garbage while forbidding the well-deserved, satisfaction of a slap-down he so richly and often deserves... and so on.

I dunno, Satori. I too have had posts moderated, deleted, even moved to the soap forum. I can't say I was very happy about it when it occured. But, given some time and perspective I do think the moderators were doing their best to make the best decision for this place. They are human, they make mistakes too. I don't always agree with them, but I imagine they have a difficult job.

And, regarding Garth's post, it appears to me you were able to give it back pretty good and your post still stands as well. So, I am not sure anyone was denied an opportunity at a "slap-down."

P.S. See, Satori, I am fully persuaded we can have a respectful, spirited, and enjoyable debate on this topic without stooping to personal attacks or violating rules. We can do that (or at least I happen to believe we can) because I also believe you and I respect each other.

I have learned (thanks to my experience here at the cafe) that debating with someone who I do not respect and/or who does not respect me is ultimately a waste of my time. Not saying I don't still do it on occassion for various reasons, but I sure don't do it very often anymore. Life is too short to waste it arguing with people I don't even like. Once those minutes are gone they cannot be regained. I'd rather spend them with friends and family.

Satori, I want to preface this by stating I have a great deal of respect for you. Your posts here, in particular, helped me in ways above and beyond the posts of most others back in my early days at the cafe. But in this instance, I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a better writer, maybe I would get it right the first time, like everyone else here does.

Well I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly don't get it right the first time, the second time, and often even the third time. I gave up worrying about being perfect quite some time ago. I often leave behind typos, grammatical mistakes and misspelled words. Oh well, <shrug> I have better ways to spend my time than trying to make my posts perfect.

I have even less time for those (who are also imperfect, btw) who would criticize me harshly for being imperfect.

Abigail,

As for the grow up and get over it mantra we love to chant here, that doesn't work for everyone affected by TWI. Some of us once joined the cult because it seemed like a great way to cut through the BS to a much improved spiritual life.

Again, I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse. However, I do think we can and NEED to take responsibility for our actions and choices, including the words we choose to post here. Indeed, I think failing to accept such responsibility is what made it so easy for us to just "follow the leader" while in TWI.

But others joined because life had already dealt them very badly. Those people found out that TWI was a fraud and they were no better off than the very bad situation that brought them in the first place, seeking real help. Some of them are here. And what do they hear? "Grow up." "Get over it." As if TWI were the worst of their troubles, and not a metaphor for their own lives.

If we think just for a moment, it's easy to realize these individuals may bear the crosses of a lifetime's worth of abuse, neglect, or pain. TWI is just the most recent chapter. And now Greasespot, for them, might become the icing on the cake, to satisfy somebody's sense of what? Propriety? Decency and order? Right.

Yeah, I do get that Satori. I am not unfamiliar, having experienced such things myself, long before I ever came across the likes of TWI. Perhaps through some twist of fate I was blessed either genetically or environmentally with the inner strength to eventually face my demons and move forward with my life. Or perhaps, through some twist of fate I was forced to find the inner strength to do so, when I was no longer able to find people who would enable my weaknesses in those areas. (which isn't to say I am perfect or have no weaknesses now).

In any event, I will again for the third time reiterate: I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse.

I have great empathy for those who are new here, in particular. I also am fully persuaded that Paw and the moderators do as well. I would even go so far as to bet Paw wouldn't start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from someone who was new here and screwed up in a post.

I would, however, bet that Paw might start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from the same 3 or 4 people over and over and over again, people who have been here for 8, 9, or more years. IMO, continuing to pat these people on the head and fix their mistakes for them is simply enabling them and isn't truly helping them.

I'd even take it a step further and suggest that if, after 8, 9 or more years here you are still feeling incapable of coping because of your experiences with TWI or any other form of abuse - then maybe one ought to consider professional help. This place provides information and an opportunity to vent and exchange experiences, ideas and opinions, but it is not a replacement for professional counseling if that is what one needs.

As you said yourself, this place is a passive place. It is a place to receive information, perhaps vent, debate, give and receive empathy. But overall, at some point in time one has to become active in their own healing and recovery.

While I do believe there is some form of "group therapy" that can and at times does take place here, I don't believe we have any professionals acting in a professional capacity here. Some people simply may need to seek professional help to move them along their journey of healing.

And just maybe the problem here isn't Paw or the moderators and isn't the rules or how they are enforced. Perhaps the problem here is that some of us old-timers simply need to move on and make room for the newcomers. You, me, Dot, Sushi, WW, ExC, Garth, Oakspear, Rocky, Groucho - man the list could go on and on and on. We've been here since the beginning - many are from WayDale days. Perhaps we need to look within ourselves and ask "are we contributing to the solution or are we part of the problem?" Perhaps we need to ask "what am I getting out of this place anymore?" "Is this just a replacement for a social life for me or am I here because I truly want to help those who are still processing out of TWI?"

I am not suggesting the people I have named must leave and never post here again. I am simply suggesting we look within ourselves and ask ourselves what it is we are contributing to this place and what it is we are getting out of it.

Have you never written something that looked right and a day later thought of a better word, or example, or whatever? Well I do. All the time.

That is a rather telling statement, Satori. All the time? Do you not ever learn from your mistakes? Do you have an impulse control problem that prevents you from walking away for a bit and then re-reading what you wrote before you hit the send button?

Of course I have written things I have regretted. In fact, I deleted nearly every post in "My Story" back in the day when such things could be done. I also learned from my mistakes and continue to learn from them. I've taken responsibility for my words and when I've had to, I've come back and explained myself better or sent a PM to an offended party to hash things out.

Greasespot was never that much fun unless there was a good argument going, all comers welcome, and when the wet-nurses started moderating the "Tics" forum, I was done.

I didn't realize the purpose of Greasespot was to entertain you. And, BTW, a good truly good debate, IMO, is one that doesn't require personal attacks, but one that has well presented arguments from all sides.

There's another side to this. I can "imagine" that some people who have deleted posts (when it was still possible, beyond the current time limit) were probably horrified by the ugliness of what they read in response to something deeply personal and regrettably confessional, and I sympathize with them, not for myself. Or maybe they revealed something confidential or hurtful in a weak or candid emotional moment and they wanted to limit the damage. In all cases, it's quite likely they over-estimated the intelligence and sensitivity of the respondents at Greasespot with an ill-advised post.

I'm sure this can, has, and still does occur on occassion. I too have sympathy for those new people who occassionally make this mistake. But, funny thing is, I'm betting it is often the same handful of people who make the same "mistake" over and over and over again and most of them have been around the cafe for years and years now. So, again, when will they learn? when will they grow up and take some responsibility for their own choices??

Mostly, I just don't do GS much any more. (Only partly because of the edit thing.)

--

"Get over it?" There's a peculiar choice of words.

Yeah, well, you can't please all of the people even some of the time. Sometimes you just have to put your big girl or big boy panties on and deal with things you don't like - or set a boundary and walk away. That is just life.

I'm not asking anyone to "get over" being raped, abused, manipulated, etc. I'm simply suggesting people take responsibility for their own lives. Take responsibility for the words you post. Take responsibility for deciding to hit the "reply" button.

Nicely put Satorie...

Well I am a new person here at GSC so maybe what I say does have some merit since I am new for me GSC is the sum of all its' parts.

IMO, your input is far more important than the opinions of those of us who have been here forever. Some of us have forgotten what it is like to find this place for the first time. Many of us no longer need to "process out," we've done that, even if we haven't all moved forward with our lives.

The input of "fresh eyes" is vital, I believe.

I have found good information here about what "The Way International " really was. Some of it i already knew or suspected but a lot of it I didn't.

The questions about was it the right thing or the wrong thing have plagued me for years

as did some of the teachings... which have kept me from going to church or finding the right group of people to spend my time with.

For me finding GSC has given me knowledge, and with that knowledge comes peace.

For me GSC has not "Jumped the shark" For me it was a life line and a welcome fount of information.

And there, Paw, is perhaps the real answer you were looking for. To the people who are new here, the cafe is still viable and needed.

Perhaps the real problem is that some of us old-timers need to move out and on and start functioning in the real world, instead of harassing other people on the internet when things don't go their way.

That said, I also believe you are not obligated to keep the forums open. You have given your life blood to this place and it is reasonable to say "enough is enough."

Is Greasespot still useful?

I don't know, that answer might best come from those who are newest here. I can, however, tell you what Greasespot did for me.

It helped me undo all of the wrong teaching I got out of TWI. It helped me see the illogic of what was taught and how those teachings hurt me. It helped me realize I wasn't alone in what I experienced. It helped me realized I was in an abusive marriage and it helped me find my way out of it.

Here, I met many wonderful people and learned from many great threads. There was one thread in particluar, that got me ineterested in learning more about logical and critical thinking skills. Because of that thread I took a college course on the subject and earned the highest grade in the class. In doing so, I learned I was't stupid or incapable of earning a college degree and I continued with my education.

My life is significantly changed for the better, because of my experience here at the cafe. In fact, if it weren't for Paw and Greasespot, I may very well have returned to TWI and stayed in an abusive marriage. I would never have realized the potential within me.

For those of you who don't like the way Paw or the Moderators run this place, there is a simple solution. Don't let the door hit you in the behind on the way out. The man gives of his time and money and all he has asked in return is that we disagree respectfully. That we behave as if we are adults when we post on the forums.

As for editing posts - the solution is very simple. Step back, take a deep breath and re-read what you wrote BEFORE you hit the "Add Reply" button. In the real world, once you have spoken you cannot go back and delete what you said. Live with it or get over it or just don't post.

As I frequently tell my children, there are rules we must follow in life, even as adults. They may not always seem to us to be fair, but we must follow them anyway. Why would you think the forums would be different? Why would you think that just because you can hide behind a screen name that it is okay to be as rude and beligerant as you want?

My cousin gave me this recipe over Thanksgiving.

3 cubs bread flour

1 packet (1/4 ounce) instant or fast rise yeast

1 1/2 teaspoon salt

1 1/2 cup water

small amount of oil

1. Combine flour, yeast and salt in large bowl. Add 1 1/2 cup water and stir until blended - dough will be shaggy/sticky.

2. Cover bowl with plastic wrap and let it rest on the counter at room temp for 4 hours

3. Lightly oil a work surface and pace dough on it. Fold dough over on tiself once or twice and cover loosely with plastic wrap. Let rest 30 more minutes at room temp.

4. While dough is resting place a 6 - 8 quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, pyrex or ceramic) in oven on 450 degrees and let it heat for 30 minutes

5. After 30 minutes carefully place dough in pot, seam side up. Cover with lid and back for 30 minues at 450 degrees.

6. Remove lid and back another 15 - 30 minutes until golden brown.

I use an enamal roasting pan and shape the bread in a loaf instead of round. It comes out with a very crunchy crust and a soft, moist inside.

To make it healthier I replace 4 tablespoons of the flour with 4 tablespoons of milled flax seed. Even the kids love it!!!

This weekend I am going to try making it with 2 cups bread flour - minus 4 tablespoons, 1 cup of rye flour and 4 tablespoons of milled flax seed.

you can also put an eggwash on the dough before cooking and sprinkle with sesame seeds, poppy seeds, or quinua.

We haven't bought store bread since we got the recipe. It is so easy, cheap and GOOD

We switched our insurance coverage to Geico a couple of months ago. I was a little nervous about doing it, because I prefer someone who has an office right here in town. We raised our deductibles and between the 2 saved $100 PER MONTH.

Well . . . this weekend it happened. Someone ran a stop sign and hit Sushi's 2008 Cobalt, damaging the front end. The car is still driveable and no one was hurt, thankfully.

Sooooo . . . called this morning to file a claim. They were very kind and helpful. They will be sending an adjuster out to estimate the damage and repair, they will send paperwork to the girl's insurance company to recover our $500 deductible for us, and if we would like they will give us $30 a day for a rental car for up to a month.

We are early in the process, so it may be a bit soon to say for sure, but so far it appears the service is satisfactory.

(sigh)...it would be nice if economic eating and healthy eating went together.

Yes, I know it can...but I guess we are talking about these things going together for people who not aonly do not have a lot of resources to pay, but also reasources to search and dig and all that.

As fast food joints, bargain menus usually mean, well, you know...

I have been in mourning many years over Wendy's getting rid of their salad bars.

It is possible to eat healthy on a small budget. It does take being educated regarding what is and is not healthy though. And it takes time to prepare the meals. Sushi cooks most of the meals during the week. On the weekends, I prepare "bulk" meals. Giant pots of soup, chili, etc.

For the price of one whole chicken, some fresh veggies, and a grain I can feed our family of 4 homemade (much healither than canned stuff) chicken soup for 3 - 4 dinners and a couple of lunchs AND make a chicken couscous casserol for another 1 - 2 dinners. Some beans, cheese and corn tortillas (all relatively cheap) can make a couple more meals. I can get all of that for less than $30.

Bean soup, also very cheap and healthy.

The stuff from Angel Food just isn't designed to stretch like that. Plus, its a lot of processed stuff and a lot of beef. We don't normally eat beef more than once a week.

We picked up our first order yesterday. It does seem like a lot of food for your money, but I have to say, overall I am disappointed. First, because a number of their products contain trans fat, which is even worse for you than saturated fats. I wrote them about this and suggested they either not purchase products with trans fats or at least post on the menu which items contain them, so we can make a more informed decision.

Also, after looking at the December menu, I realized if I shop sales I can get the same meat products for less money locally. It is just a matter of planning meals. We have saved tremendously by planning healthy meals with more beans and vegetables and by making soups, chili, stews, etc.

Beyond that, we typically do not purchase many processed foods and they seem to sell quite a few of them.

It may be a great deal for some people. I have to put our health above the small potential savings and will pass in the future.

And under the new contract with the tiered system, new hires make about $14 - $15 an hour. Barely enough to pay the rent, utilities, etc. and buy food. Hard to buy a new car on that income.

Meanwhile, the CEO's are making millions each year and the executives aren't far behind them. It isn't the unions that did this, it is the management. I think before the lower wage earners are asked to make more concessions, the CEO's and executives need to make a few. Why does anyone need to make $14 - $15 MILLION dollars PER YEAR? Just how much crap can one family possibly need to buy?

Since I am still unable to embed, my lovely bride has allowed me to use her account to post this. This one's for you George. Btw, this is from Sushi.

I am amazed by the number of armchair attorneys the cafe has.

In that light, I would point out that in most instances (and the laws do vary from state to state), when one is charged with libel, one of the elements that must be proven is intent. In other words, if the person speaking believed the words they were speaking were true, they cannot be found guilty of libel even if the words are eventually proven to be false.

That being said, WhiteDove, by accusing others of committing libel, by your own definition are you not doing the same? After all, no one here has even been charged with libel, much less convicted of it. So, I guess to be technically accurate, WD, you would have to say "in my opinion you have committed libel" or it is "allegedly libel"

It's a very broad question, Geisha, which makes it very very hard to answer. Christianity itself is hard to define - so many denominations, so many doctrines, so many differences among them all! Then there is the concept of tolerance, or intolerance. Intolerant of what?

Some Christians are intolerant of anyone who believes differently than they do - as evidenced by TWI. Some Christians are intolerant of those who don't believe in the trinity or those who do. Some of homosexuals. The list could be endless.

So, some Jews are intolerant of non-Jews. Some are intolerant of the orthodox and some are intolerant of the reformed. I'll bet there are likewise some pagans who are intolerant of one group or another. That is just people, unfortunately. Some of us are intolerant of the intolerant too.

So maybe, just maybe, what concerns you more is "do people perceive you as being intolerant?" I don't know. I'm guessing based on what I have read down here, that perhaps that is at least a part of your question.

So, I'll tell you what I think. I don't believe you are intolerant. I think you are very very convicted/convinced of your beliefs. I also think you care deeply about people. Because of those two things, I believe you want to see "all people" come to the knowledge of your faith and be saved. It is a noble endeavor, given your convictions. However, in THIS FORMAT, it makes it easy for people to misunderstand where you are coming from and perceive you as being intolerant, even though you aren't.

One thing that helps with that is to use "I" statements. Instead of simply saying "this is what the Bible says, this is the way it is" if you said "this is what I believe the Bible says and therefore this is the way I believe it is" it leaves a bit of a crack in the door that makes conversation easier.

You are, in essence, saying the same thing - but you are saying it in a way that invites a more open back and forth conversation. It is a small thing, but because we do not have facial expressions and tone of voice, it really does make a difference.

It makes some of us quite prickly if we feel we are being preached at, or if we feel someone is trying to "witness" to us. First and foremost, many of us just want to be accepted for who we are now. Now, I am Jewish. I cannot say what I will call myself a year or two from now. Something could happen that could change my point of view. But for now, I want to be accepted for who I am, in exactly this place and time in my journey.

In terms of the broader question, is Christianity getting more flack today than it did in previous generations? Probably. It is hard to gauge just from one website called Greasespot though, because so many of us do bring baggage from our experience with TWI.

Our society as a whole, is expanding. We have a larger and larger population of diverse beliefs about God, more athiests and agnostics as well. Where as a society homosexuality was once condemned, now homosexual people are coming to be more accepted, even among those who may condemn the act itself. (for example). So, I think as a society we may also be becoming more and more intolerant of intolerance. Because in our country, Christianity has been the norm for so long, the mainstream, Christianity is probably getting hit the hardest. But Christianity is hardly the only religion or group that has factions of intolerant people in it or aspects of its doctrine that could be viewed as intolerant.

I once refused to study Judaism, because I thought it was so completely intolerant. My understanding of it was that it was all based on DNA - genetics. As if a person has any say at all regarding who they are born to, what genes they get. Then, when I finally begain studying it, I realized my intial perceptions were wrong, that it isn't simply about genetics and that it is an incredibly tolerant religion (though of course, there are intolerant sects and individuals within it).

There are a few of us around, though I don't know that we were involved in TWI and in Michigan at the same time.

Hey Andrea, I kinda remember you from your florist days, but I don't think I ever knew you were from Michigan. What years were in you Michigan?

I live in Lansing, so we aren't too far from each other. There are a handful of other Michiganians here at the cafe too.

I don't believe I was born in sin and I don't believe I need a savior. Sorry, but that is how I see it. I believe God made formed and created me as He said HE did - awesomely and wonderfully made. Note, he does not say perfect, just awesome and wonderful.

I am not perfect. God didn't make me to be perfect and doesn't expect me to be perfect. That is part of what this life is for, to make mistakes and learn from them.

I don't think Jesus Christ will somehow magically and mysticall perfect me, again, because I do not believe that was God's plan for me.

While I can (on some level) recognize the heart and concern of those who teach hellfire and brimstone because they are concerned about the state of my soul/spirit/whatever you want to call it, I too find it offensive. Not just offensive to me personally, because they are "minding my business" but to God as well.

Like others here, I don't see anything loving in teachings that stem from fear.