Abigail

I've been trying to figure something out... The population of the GSC seems to be pretty varies as far as current belief systems. What was it that brought us all to twi?

A mixture of things. I knew of TWI for quite a few years before I became involved, because I had friends from high school who were involved. I finally made the decision to check them out when I hit rock bottom, so to speak. I was young, my mother was dying, I was trying to get clean and sober and find direction in my life, etc. etc. etc. So, when I wanted to know more about God, TWI sort of seemed like an obvious place to start. HA!

There are overlapping themes among almost all religions. Names change, rituals change, but if you look beneath the surface, the similarities are astounding. Yes, Kabbalah worked it's way into some Christian sects. Kabbalah comes from Judaism. But, I would bet Kabbalah existed even before Judaism, just under a different name and perhaps with different rituals.

If you study ancient pagan religions and you read the OT, you will see the shades and shadowing there as well. Rachel and the idol for example.

.....I know how to end this.....YOUR"E RIGHT!

James, you miss the point entirely. I am not here to discuss you and your posts have been spamming up The About the Way section for weeks. I would wade into any discussion that is About the Way. But I have no concern for your doctrines or positions. I do not believe them. We are different and I will not be converted. Otherwise, you wanna join in on discussing About the Way then I have no problems with you.

Personally, I would LOVE to see him come back to the doctrinal forum. I think there could be some very interesting discussions there! But, that is only IF IF IF he can actually participate in a discussion, as opposed to simply posting lectures.

For instance, I would LOVE to know what he bases his law regarding weekly synagogue attendence on. I would also LVOE to know how the Book of Mormon somehow fulfilled the commandments regarding the most holy of holy days!!

and Gen, I hope you will continue to share. From a study of human behavior perspective, this is quite fascinating.

I don't know James. I think it could be very educational for those here to get a more up close look at a cult leader or at least a cult leader wannabe. Some of us never had an opportunity to know VPW or LCM up close and personal. Sadly, some did.

Oh if only this were in the doctrinal section. So James would require people to attend the Synogogue on a weekly basis, even though Jewish Law has no such decree. But, he would say the most holy of all holidays was fulfilled by the Book of Mormom??? My head hearts just trying to make sense of that!!

I read a beautiful article this morning that shows the heart of a true teacher and leader. The full article CAN BE FOUND HERE

I will quote a few of the parts that I found moving:

" . . . .today we would not have a Second Passover. But Moses heard the Jews protest "Why should we lose out?" and he saw that it pained them. Seeing their pain, he was pained too. In pain he turned to G‑d, certain that G‑d would respond with a solution that would allow these individuals to have another chance.

We cannot just sit quietly; we must all ask "Why should we lose out?" Why should we not be a part of the Jewish tradition to the fullest degree possible—every individual on his or her level? And when we protest, G‑d arranges the possibilities and capabilities to fully participate."

This is God's way, not the legalism we have seen offered in this thread.

And this as well is God's way . . . .

"I have asked: What does a man who was born in Russia and resides in Brooklyn have with Moroccan Jews in Casablanca? What does an Ashkenazi rabbi in the United States have with Sephardic Jews in Morocco? What motivated him to come to their aid?

I have one answer. It is because he felt for every single Jew. He was concerned for every individual and for the entire Jewish nation, not just a certain group; and every single person was important to him. He wanted all Jews to follow their parents' traditions, whether it was Ashkenazi or Sephardic."

IMO, that is the right way, whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslem, Pagan, etc. etc. etc.

Either/Or scenarios are often due to black and white thinking :) It is also a logical fallacy in many, many cases. I like the many shades of color we have here at the cafe, myself.

Well, my spelling was off. It is actually the Noahic laws, they are the 7 commandments given to Noah after the flood:

1) to establish courts of justice

2) not to commit blasphemy

3) not to commit idolatry

4) not to commit incest and adultery

5) not to commit bloodshed

6) not to commit robbery and

7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal.

SOURCE

James, in some respect I am sorry to see you leave. While I am vehemently opposed to what you are doing in setting up your own little religous organization, I think it could have been interesting to discuss your religous views. Provided, of course, that it could be a real discussion (as opposed to lecture/teaching/preaching) with honest discourse and consideration given.

You should be aware that the Jews back then probably mainly spoke Hebrew and the KJV translators spoke Hebrew and knew what it meant when they translated it into the English ' perfect '.

The KJV also indicates in parenthesis that perfect also means ' upright '.

Are you trying to tell us that the story book Jesus wasn't ' upright? '

Hec, the earliest Jews don't even believe the Bible is legitimate apart from the first 5 books so you are trying to lecture others about a book you don't fully believe either?

There are so many branches of Judaism, which branch are you currently in and what made you reject formal / strict Judaism?

So your not going to challenge that site. Thought as much. LOL!

Traditions and multiple often opposing Jewish opinions are more man made clap-trap you want to cling to!

Abigail picks from a myriad of Jewish boxes full of man made traditions of what suits her to believe. LOL!

Part 1

Nice attempt at dodge and distract, Composer, but you failed to answer the question. What does the word "perfect" mean in the verse you quoted? You are the one who picked the verse and started this thread, afterall.

You have proven you are capable of slinging insults, but I have yet to see you actually engage in an intelligent debate. I will consider answering your questions when you have answered mine.

I don't have to take this abuse from you...

I've got thousands of people out there that want to abuse ME.

ROFLOL. Now there is a side of you that could actually be likeable. Humor! Good for you James. I'm still not drinking your kool aide, but I can appreciate a good laugh. :)

No, we got the authority to establish a Beit Din from the Torah (not me):

Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates,

which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes:

and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

(Deut. 16:18 KJV)

The Beit Din is a voting body.

Sure, so you picked three friends who may or may not even be Jewish and they appointed you as a Rabbi over a school you started. Yup, that's perfectly credible. And what, precisely, qualified your friends to be elders, other than the fact that you wanted it to be so?

Then you used your fake ordination to put people under laws that even God never put people under. Yup, this is very fitting for about The Way. VPW got his papermill doctorate, manipulated his ordination, set up a church with a school, and put people under laws that even God never put them under.

I guess a cult is a cult is a cult is a cult. The m.o. is the same.

I did not get where I did with the lawsuit by lying my way through my deposition. If I had lied in my deposition, I have no doubt that TWI attorneys would have taken the case to trial prepared to destroy my credibility before the jury. I am sure they checked up on these things, for exactly that reason. Why settle a suit with someone you can prove lied their way through their deposition?

James, I work in the legal field. In litigation. People lie during depositions. Those depositions are then used to impeach the person during trial. It happens quite frequently. If TWI's attorneys caught you in a lie, it would be very poor strategy to let you know about it prior to trial.

The problem with taking their case against you to trial is that legally they had a thin case regardless of whether or not you lied during your deposition. Their case was premised on copyright infringement of a religious nature regarding the Bible. It was going to be a hard case to win.

Moreover, TWI did exactly what you did. They gathered information from numerous source and published books based upon that information, without giving proper credit to their sources. So Clay is right. Taking you to trial would have forced them to risk exposing themselves for the same exact fraudulant activities they accused you of.

Of course, I would imagine your due to your relationship with Michael Rood, you already know this.

Exactly, Waysider! I wanted to try to point it out and explain it, but I couldn't find a way to do so without getting into lenghtly explanations on Judaism. YOu did an excellent job of explaining it!!

What are the qualifications one must meet in order to represent their self as a Rabbi?

Mainstream Judaism, both Orthodox and Conservative, require graduation from a 4 year Jewish seminary. Chabad and Hassidics have their own qualifications which require intense study as well.

yeah, uh, sure. I've never seen a witness lie during a deposition! DOH!!!

Here you can find an article "Dr." (or is it Rabbi???) Trimm wrote on Kabbalah. You should know that there is only one Jewish group that makes authentic(imo, which is based on years of research) information on the Kabbalah pubic, and that is chabad.org. A group that James denounced yesterday in the doctrinal forum because they do not believe in his Messiah.

Yup, the old hukster, VPW himself, could have taken lessons from this guy in how to cobble together your own religion by stealing information from already established ones.

And here you can find an article "Dr." Trimm wrote on Kabbalah. You should know that there is only one Jewish group that makes authentic information on the Kabbalah pubic and that is chabad.org. A group that James denounced yesterday in the doctrinal forum because they do not believe in his Messiah.

Yup, the old hukster, VPW himself, could have taken lessons from this guy in how to cobble together your own religion by stealing information from already established ones.

Perhaps your friend would like to speak on your behalf for himself? Otherwise you are simply asking us to take your word for, which at this point I'm not inclined to do. Then again, as you will see when you read my response to your other thread, in addition to accusations of having a false diploma, you are also accused of pretending to be a Rabbi. Hmmmm, like I said, you have more negative press than even TWI has.

Good luck to you.

HERE IS more information on his involvement with the Mormon group:

"I subscribe to several e-mail discussion groups headed by James Trimm, a Messianic Christian who's pseudonym is "Rabbi Yosef ben Yehudah." He *isn't* a Mormon but finds an amazing amount of authentic "Jewishness" in the Book of Mormon text that point to its authenticity."

James, how did you manage to obtain the title Rabbi?

Oh yes, that information is FOUND HERE

"The web page for Rabbi Yosef reveals that Trimm was promoting himself as having a doctorate in Rabbinical studies, and also embraced the Book of Mormon as an authentic Jewish book, which was based on valid Jewish sources, making it equivalent in truth to the Bible"

Oh and to make sure I keep this in proper perspective with About the Way, here is a statement of beliefs - - see if it sounds familiar:

"We believe that Nazarene Judaism is the only expression of the one true faith. We do not accept any other religion as a non-Jewish cultural expression of the one true faith."

This Link has some information in that regard, James. Here is an interesting quote:

"In email correspondence spanning May 22- June 4, 2003 and a telephone conversation with Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher for the counter cult organization, Watchman Fellowship, Phillip made the following statements about James Trimm, his doctorate, and on line transcript.

"To my knowledge, James does not have a doctorate. He was given an honorary degree by a church. It was something like the Apostolic Catholic Church. James did not go to college. His Hebrew and Aramaic are self taught. He told me he had not been able to afford college. And he told me when this church gave him the doctorate."

"To my knowledge, James never took those courses. He told me De Cordova was giving him an honorary doctorate. I was in fairly close contact with James from '93 thru '95."

OldSkool, I think this is very fitting for About The Way. If you take the time to research James you will see his tactics are not so very different from the ones we saw in TWI. The lying, thieving, manipulating, even adultery. Oh and the wordsmithing to make himself sound scholarly - it really is straining at gnats, just like we experienced in TWI.

In some ways, he is even better at it than Martindale was. But, like many who are corrupt, his need for control and his greed eventually get the better of him. Hence, the people he hand picked as leaders in his own religious sect kicked him out.

Check out the links, read the ones Geisha posted in the other thread. What you will begin to see is a pattern. He researches his mark, he did it with the Messianic Jews who eventually kicked him out. He did it with the Mormons. Now he is here researching TWI.

Check out some of the threads in doctrinal if you want to see more. Interestingly, I confronted him on an error wherein he essentially stated that all are required to attend the synogogue weekly for the reading of the Torah. When I pointed out that even the Jewish people are under no such obligation and that synogogues and even the Temple did not exist when the Mosaic Laws were given, he decided he no longer wished to participate in the doctrinal forum.

He is here to peddle his wares. He will research his mark, but when he is proven to be the con man he is, he will leave.

Those are my opinions. Take em or leave em, it is really up to you. But, forewarned is forearmed.

As I said elsewhere, HERE you can find a document from the group he splintered off from, when he left to start his own little cult. Actually, if one reads this letter in the context of James opening post in this thread it would appear he was difellowshipped from one group, started his own group and was eventually disfellowshipped from that group as well. So, he has moved on to starting yet another group. LCM could learn from this guy!

It is interesting to me, that the Messianic Jewish movement is considered to be something of a fringe group anyway, and even they have disavowed Trimm. His group is considered a fringe group even by the fringe groups!

Here are a few excepts from the link:

"But he is misleading the public because he doesn't want you to realize that the men he hand

picked and chose to be the elders he would be responsible to in ministry removed

him from his position."

In other words, even the people he hand picked could no longer tolerate him. Gee, sounds familiar.

Part of the dispute, if I am understanding the docment correctly, stemmed from the fact that people paid James to send them materials and then he failed to follow through with the delivery. "James not delivering ministry materials to people that had already sent him their money." and " . . . and the Beit Din unanimously asked James Trimm to step down from the Beit Din until he had shipped all materials. Turning down help when so many people where being refused what they requested was notacceptable to us, and we took action. With the threat of removing James from office, James accepted that help and worked out an agreeable approach to do so."

Again, this may sound familiar to some: "In August 2006 three new members were admitted to the INBD from the

UoNYC. One quit shortly thereafter. Another quit in September of 2007 when

James Trimm attempted to wrest control of the UNJS from its rightful council and

admitted to the Beit Din of infidelity towards his wife."

Also interesting: "on Sept 19th, James Trimm files papers

declaring the right to use the name "International Nazarene Beit Din" as a business

name in Tarrant County Texas SEVERAL DAYS AFTER the International Nazarene

Beit Din had removed him from office, a highly dishonest move."

Hmmm is this not similar to the allegations TWI made against him? And keep in mind, TWI settled. Do we know the terms of that settlement? Because a settlment, in and of itself, does not give indication of guilt or innocence. Often, parties settle because it is cheaper than putting on a trial. Remember TWI settled in the Allen case, they would have lost. In this case, Trimm settled with TWI, why? What were the terms?

And why, exactly, are you so interested in 'analyzing' VPW? Why are you (who had no real standing with TWI) so interested in picking apart a dead man you never knew or followed??

Thanks WordWolf. I have great respect for my Christian friends here and learn much from them. While I may not believe Jesus was the Messiah, I do believe he was a very wise Rabbi and give high esteem to much of what he taught. And that, btw, comes from my studying and understanding of Judaism, which gave me a deeper insight into the words that have been recorded from his teachings.

There is a difference between having a respectful doctrinal discussion/debate and trying to recruit one to another cult. That is my beef with James. He does not so much engage in discourse, but in preaching and teaching. In addition, what he posts really comes down to wordsmithing and straining at gnats. I think most of us here had enough of that in TWI. He would probably fair better on a college campus (as VPW so well understood) except he is going to find it very difficult to find college kids who are willing to adhere to his strict laws.