Abigail

I thougth some of you might enjoy this article: Click Here

It is pretty short and simple to read.

In part, it says:

"Our sages tell us that Torah can be interpreted in four different general ways: peshat, remez, drush and sod. . . . . Within these four methods of understanding Torah, there exist countless possible avenues of understanding"

I have known quite a few Christians who beieve that way (and didn't pretty much all of us at one time or another during our stint with TWI?). Yet, even the knew testiment speaks of how all will come to a knowledge of God, or something to that effect. I think there are many paths to God. God is much bigger than the box we often try to force Him into. Perhaps if I have time this weekend, I will dust off my books and post some more on the subject. :)

Soul Searcher, I can tell you my thoughts on the afterlife, but please keep in mind I do not speak for all of Judaism. :) As within Christianity, there is a diversity of beliefs among the Jewish people. What binds us together is not necessarily an agreement on all doctrine, but a shared heritage and belief in some (most definitely not all) of the basic tenants and rituals.

It has been quite a long time since I have given deep consideration to the afterlife, as I have put significantly more emphasis on living my life in the here and now. But, based upon my understanding of scripture I would only go so far as to state I do believe there is something more following death. I cannot say for certain if we are reborn and put back on this earth in a different body to continue learning and growing or if we return to God to await a new heaven and earth. I know Enoch walked with God and was translated. I know many men and women of the Bible were imperfect, yet it would seem they found rest with God when they were through with their earthly bodies.

I believe that the purpose and goal of our lives on this earth is two-fold. First, it is for us to grow and mature into better beings. Then, it is for us to work and live in our communities in such a way as to make them better. It seems to me there would be no purpose in growing into better beings if at the end of this life we were to simply fade into oblivion.

I am not a Christian, so perhaps my answers won't interest you. But, your understanding of Judaism interests me because I am Jewish.

I suspect, however, that you will find my answers unsatisfactory. They are my answers. By that, I mean they are not likely to be the answers you are seeking.

I can tell you I have raged at God. I have walked away from God. I have studied, I have screamed, I have thrown my hands up in the air and cursed at God. Yet, in the end I always return. Changed in my thoughts and opinions, but still believing in God nonetheless. My father wouild call that weakness, he does not believe. But for me, it is my belief that makes me strong.

I don't know why terrible things happen in this world. I don't know why 6 million Jews died in consentration camps or why so many died in Haitti. I don't know why men rape women, why children are abused, or why teenaged boys are killing each other over turf and drugs.

I don't know why I had to endure being raped at 17. Or why I had to endure an abusive marriage. Or why my grandmother (who was the most wonderful and amazing woman I have ever known) had to die only a few short months before she would have met her first great-grandson.

What I do know is that there are things I can do to make this world a better place. I know that each day I can take action that has a positive impact on my family and the community I live in. Most days, it may only seem like little things, but those little things can unexpectedly have a tremendous impact down the road. That is the cornerstone of Judaism, not the rituals, but the doing, the making a difference. I think many Christians may feel the same way about their religion as well.

And, I know that it is my belief in God that keeps me going and helps give me the strength and courage to continue to do those little things. Without that belief, for me, life seems hopeless and pointless. I might just as well eat, drink, and be merry until the day I die.

It is my belief in God that gives me hope and it is hope that gives me strength and courage and it is strength and courage that allows me to get out of bed every day and do my part to improve my corner of the world.

So, I don't believe in a good or loving God simply because some book says He is so. I believe in a good and loving God because that is what brings me peace in this chaotic and often harsh world that we live in.

Composer,

It strikes me from reading your posts that you are struggling with your relationship with your God. You can claim you only believe in ID, and not a God of the Bible, but I think you protest too much for that to be entirely true.

I am not Christian, so your posts don't necessarily offend me as much as they may some of the others here. But, I can't help but wonder are you truly trying to persuade them that their beliefs are wrong? Or somewhere deep inside are you truly praying and hoping they will persuade you to their POV?

Something must have hurt you very deeply for you to be this angry. Most of us here on this forum can relate to that, having done our time in TWI and experienced the great disillusion that followed our exodus from the cult.

Jacob doesn't put much in his pockets, so I rarely find much. Candy or gum wrappers.

Aaron on the other hand . . . he picks up all kinds of things! Screws, springs, OMG I can't even count how many yuhgio or pokemon cards I've washed!! Money (he's better about that though, because the rule here is if I find it in the washer I keep it!), rocks, lots of rocks, he used to collect them. Jewelry and barrets that he finds on the playground. Notes from girls at school. Fishing lures and other assorted fishing gear. With that one, there is no telling what may turn up next.

Then there is Sushi . . . he gives me lots of money from his pockets. :) I guess the pens don't count though, because he doesn't leave them in his pockets, he leaves them on his shirts?

Its been so long since I posted here, I almost forgot my login information. I am an ex-wayfer married to an ex-wayfer and we met here at Greasespot. I didn't marry my husband because he was ex TWI, but I did meet him because he was ex TWI. TWI really has very little to do with our lives together, other than the occassional insider joke that someone who had never been involved in TWI would never get.

We met in the chatroom. Our background with TWI was the common ground that caused us to become introduced, but it was the common ground we have in so very many other areas of our lives that drew us together and keep us together. He is, without a doubt, the best friend I have ever had.

Bank of America and a number of other big names have all settled class action suits against them for improperly applying payments so that they can tack on late fees, and various other activities. It is a bit harder to find the information on these cases, because they settled. I have a list at work, if someone needs more specific information PM me and I will get back with you on Monday.

Also, I highly recommend checking the interest rate that shows up on your statement against your cardholder agreement. If you don't have it, ask for it. Once you get it, keep it.

Credit unions are typically a much safer bet than many of the national companies.

We have been defending a debt collection case at work and I am outraged and sickened by what takes place with credit card companies. Once the case is over, I will be contacting my legislature on both a state and federal level. Our laws are outdated and no longer protect the consumer.

Only someone in my family could find and marry a half Christian-half Buddist man who is Russian, Polish, and Japanese, and whose family also happens to own one of the largest Jewish funeral homes in New York, along with a number of others across the country. (They also buy and sell caskets and urns to other funeral homes).

My uncle passed away this morning. He lived a full life of 82 years and it wasn't unexpected. He went peacefully in his sleep. It is sort of a relief, actually. He has been sick for a while and I have been traveling back and forth (an hour drive each way) every weekend to help take care of his wife and his mentally ill daughter. Now it is done and after the funeral we can begin to make plans for the future of the two of them.

Anyway, we knew it was coming and I had spent the night with my aunt last night, knowing he wasn't going to last for more than 24 to 48 hours.

It is the Jewish way to hold the funeral within 24 hours, or as soon thereafter as possible. So, as I began calling all the family members to notify them of my uncle's passing, they all wanted to know where and when the funeral was taking place.

His wife wasn't talking, his son wasn't ready to face such decisions. His other daughter was on a plane coming in from Texas and didn't even know yet that her father had died. So, I called a different cousin and asked her what I should do. She told me to ask my Aunt if she wanted a full service or just a grave-side service and gave me the name of the funeral home. My aunt said "grave-side" so I made the call.

The funeral home said I would need to call the hospital to let them know they could release the body. I called the hospital and after getting transferred a number of times, someone from security informed me that a family member was already there taking care of things. "Who?" I asked, very confused. He didn't know, he was still waiting for the person to make his way to his office. I asked him to have the family member call me.

I then started phoning family members, once again, to try to figure out who was at the hospital. While I was doing this, people began arriving at my aunt's house. In fact, before I knew it, the entire family had gathered, thus adding to my confusion as to who could be at the hospital making arrangements and why any non-family member would want to. I finally called the hospital back, it turned out they were mistaken.

So, I got that part done. Now, the daughter who is mentally ill is (among other things) severely OCD and her daily routine is everything to her. Wanting to keep her as calm as I could, I decided to take her to the restaurant where she gets who daily bowl of soup for lunch. I explained she would have to get it to go this time, because we had to go to the funeral home to finalize arrangements. She was quite put out by this, but relented (because she really had no choice).

While we were there, I was informed that the plan was to have my uncle cremated. Now understand, Jews don't do cremation, it just isn't done. Think about it, if you must.

So, on the way to the funeral home, I spoke with my cousin (the daughter who flew in from Texas and her husband ) about their plans for cremation. She explained emphatically that this was her father's wish. I explained emphatically that not only was this going to mortify family members, particularly the older generation, but in all likelihood the funeral home would refuse to do it and no Rabbi would be willing to perform the service.

Little did I know, her husband (the half Christian-half Buddhist, Polish, Russian and Japanese man) works in the industry. He tells me, "on no, more and more Jewish families are moving in this direction these days." Turns out he was right and while no Orthodox or Conservative Rabbi would perform the service under such circumstances, there were a number of Reform Rabbi's who would.

My great-grandmother would roll over in her grave, if she knew what is being planned. But, it is the wishes of the family so . . .

And you may think me twisted, but I just have to laugh at how incredibly ironic and strange this entire situation is. It is only through laughter that I maintain my own sanity.

So, on Friday, my Uncle will be the first member of my family to be cremated outside of a concentration camp. Oh, and the funeral home offered to sell us a "two-part" urn if we wanted. This way my Aunt could daily stare at my Uncle's ashes and the empty half of the urn, knowing someday she would be placed there as well. OY!! Thankfully, they agreed to pass on that particular urn.

Because tomorrow is Thanksgiving, the service will be held on Friday (before sundown, thank God). Send your prayers. I think one half of my family is likely to kill the half that thought cremation was a good idea.

Below is an extract of a recent quote from Paw regarding posting on the forums:This quote appears to be saying that pro-twi viewpoints are not welcomed here. Paw even went so far as to say he'd set up a pro-twi site for free.

In other words it seems to be saying "it is your privilege to defend twi, but here, please be quiet, we already know the pro-twi side and we don't want to hear it."

Please please clarify if this is a rule change, and if it is, please post this on the forum rules so that all posters (even those with pro-twi viewpoints from time to time) know where they stand.

I have been here since this place opened, and there have always been dissenting opinions. But there is a difference, in how those opinions are expressed. For example, you Oldies, will ask pointed questions, share that your own experience was different, etc. But you are generally respectful and you aren't a broken record.

I have defended WhiteDove's "right" (although it really is a privilege, not a right) to post here on a number of occassions. However, even I am sick to death of the broken record he has become. Almost every thread he posts on gets derailed into a "prove it"/"make me" argument that goes on for pages and pages and pages, while the initial topic is lost altogether. I've gotten to a point where if I see his name in a thread, I stop reading the thread because I already know where it is going to end up. And it carries from thread to thread to thread to thread with no end in sight.

Now, that isn't ALL White Dove's fault. If people would simply ignore his demand for evidence, he would probably get bored and move on to something else. Perhaps equally irritating, but at least it would be DIFFERENT. However, his demands push people's buttons. People share highly emotional stuff in this forum and it brings up things that are highly emotional for some of the readers. Given the emotionally charged nature of many of the conversations, it is a given that there will always be at least a small handful of people who will take the bait when WhiteDove tosses it out there, and I would be that WhiteDove knows this.

So, I don't think it is asking too much, to ask WhiteDove to cease and desist from playing defense counsel for TWI or even from playing defense counsel for his version of "truth." This is a website, not a courtroom. It is a website, not some Christian religious school purporting to propound the truth and nothing but the truth.

Truth or facts are highly subjective. How one person perceives an experience and how another person perceives that experience can be very different. There will never be a 100% consensus on most of this stuff, nor does there need to be. The people who post here, or read here, are adults and they can come to their own conclusions without all the word smithing that goes on.

One person says Ms. W. said so and so. Someone else comes along and says I never heard that. Great, you never heard it. That doesn't mean she didn't say it. Maybe the person who didn't hear simply wasn't paying attention when it was said, or maybe it didn't seem important enouogh to remember. Maybe the person relaying the story remembered part of it wrong. So what??

No where in the rules does it say all stories must be supported by cold hard evidence that would hold up under the scrutiny of a court of law.

Thank you everyone! It was a very nice, peaceful day. :)

It sounds like we should be praying for you! :)

I wonder, do either of you see the irony of this argument. You are both so very concerned that the other may be worshipping the wrong god. God is so much bigger than any defition either of you can come up with. Bigger than any definition I can come up with, or Cman, or Sir.

Neither of you have it completely right. Neither of you have it completely wrong. And in the end, you both have far more in common than you realize.

Abi,

As I'm sure you know, the Shekhina is not exactly the same concept as the Spirit of God. Do any of the Midrash or Rabbinical sources have a different understanding of the Spirit (ruach) of God from what I posted today in the Holy Spirit thread? Note, what I posted is not how most Christians perceive the Holy Spirit. From what reading I've done I got the impression that what I described there is closer to the Jewish understanding of God's spirit than to the traditional Christian view.

Mark, from my understanding I would say Shekhina is very very similar to the concept of "holy spirit" as taught within TWI. No, Jewish people wouldn't say it was "Christ in you the hope of glory" but many could understand it as the aspect of God that dwells within.

Also, please keep in mind, when studying Judaism (especially the more mystical, non-legalistic aspects) we are often cautioned to remember that at best all we can come up with is bits and pieces/aspects of God. So, for instance, when referring to Shekhina as the female aspect there needs to be emphasis on aspect. It is but one part of a much much much larger whole. The same would be said of referring to God as a father. It is an aspect, a part, it is not the whole. They are descriptive words we use because we need descriptive words to communicate ideas.

I haven't studied ruach. I will try to find some time to do so. But here are a couple of my thoughts from your posts so far.

So the spirit of God is not a separate person from God, any more than my spirit is a separate person from me.

I would agree with this. But I would take it a step further, because I do believe that spirit of God does also dwell in each of us. Therefore, though we may appear to be physically separated, we are also connected (despite our numerous and differing beliefs). This is one of the reasons I love comparative religion studies. It reminds me of just how connected we truly are. It also saddens me at times, to realize that we often try to separate ourselves over differences that are really unimportant to the bigger picture. IMO, of course.

He created all things by His breath, or His Word, according to Psalm 33:6 - "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." The breath of God is one way the Scriptures refer to His power being exercised (Exodus 15:8; Job 4:9; 37:10). God breathed life into man (Genesis 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4), and His Word (which is "God breathed" according to II Timothy 3:16) is living and powerful (Hebrews 4:12). God's breath or spirit communicates His Word and exercises His almighty power.

This is a very Jewish concept, Mark! In fact, Lashan Hora (evil speech) is often cautioned against for this very reason!! Words can be very powerful!!

Finally, I thought you might find it interesting to know that in Hebrew "Ruach Hakodesh" is the term for divine inspiration.

And now it is time for me to enjoy the sabbath candles and spend time with my family. I'll be back over the weekend though. :)

To just breath and be quiet, a very difficult thing in our culture! Funny, when a woman lights the sabbath candles, before she says the blessing she uses her hands to draw the light to herself and takes a deep breath.

P-Mosh, I'm still looking for the reference to God having a wife. From what I have found so far, I'd say that Asherah was believed by many of the Israelites to be the wife of God. Whether this was a part of Judaism from day one or incorporated from other religions is impossible to say.

However, even a reading of the OT will make it clear that Israel did worship Asherah, though such worship was also spoken against. If my understanding is correct, at some point in time over the course of history, some groups modified Asherah into Shekinah (the female aspect of god).

I guess it goes back to my earlier chicken and egg question, we may never know which came first.

HERE IS an article you may find interesting.

Mark,

I will have to re-read your posts there to answer the first part of your question. With respect to the latter, I have not specifically studied the various Jewish sects that existed during Jesus' time. But I suppose you make a point about my use of the word "all." As with Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, there will never be an "all". :D

So I wouldn't doubt that there are those who only follow the Torah and there are probably those who only follow the oral traditions (in fact, I think the gnostics came from that group??? I could be mistaken). But in GENERAL, most Jewish sects see both the Torah and the Talmud as a vital part of study and practice. This would include ultra-orthodox, orthodox, conservative, reform, and reconstruction.

Okay, I'll be back. Kids are home and playing guitar hero, so my focus is a bit off. It is really hard to think deep thoughts when you are listening to "Slow Ride" for the 100,000th time. :blink:

SLIGHTLY

Have you heard of the term "split apart?" in reference to soul mates? I first heard it during a movie I was watching many many years ago. That concept actually comes from a Jewish oral tradition. The story is that when Adam was first created, he was created as both male and female in one. God then split him apart when he made Eve. So the Chassidics and some other sects teach that we too were once one with a soul mate and we were split apart before birth. Thus, somewhere out there is one perfect soul mate for us.

I think this story sort of fits with the male/female aspects of God and the idea of man being made in "our image"

The weekend is here!!!!

Okay, I'm going to add a bit more on the Shekhinah topic, while the kids are out sledding. The LINK HERE that Sir posted in the other thread actually has some very good information. So I'm cheating a bit and will cut and paste a few pieces from it. Then I will go look for more. :)

Mark, this part is especially for you, because you seem to like word studies. The word is contained within the OT. However, I suspect if you were to limit your interest to only that which is within the OT, you will end up with a rather one-dimensional view of the word.

Shekhinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. In Biblical Hebrew the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, and is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible. (See Exodus 40:35, "Moses could not enter the Tent of Meeting, for the cloud rested [shakhan] upon it, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle." See also e.g. Genesis 9:27, 14:13, Psalms 37:3, Jeremiah 33:16), as well as the weekly Shabbat blessing recited in the Temple in Jerusalem ("May He who causes His name to dwell [shochan] in this House, cause to dwell among you love and brotherliness, peace and friendship").

Accordingly, in classic Jewish thought, the Shekhinah refers to a dwelling or settling in a special sense, a dwelling or settling of divine presence, to the effect that, while in proximity to the Shekhinah, the connection to God is more readily perceivable

The Talmud reports that the Shekhinah is what caused prophets to prophesy and King David to compose his Psalms

It is this line of thought that causes me to connect the concept of Shekhinah with the Christian concept of "holy spirit."

The Shekhinah is held by some to represent the feminine attributes of the presence of God (shekhinah being a feminine word in Hebrew), based especially on readings of the Talmud

The Talmud contains the rabbinical arguments about the meanings of verses, how the laws are to be applied, etc. It's writings are central to ALL Jewish belief, regardless of sect. The first part of the Talmud also contains the Mishna, which are the oral laws.

HA! RR. Fear not, I can tell a good polish joke and lots of good Jewish jokes. I see the humor for what it is intended to be - funny. :)

Also, I realize there were and are other groups of Jews who have different beliefs, but in the Holy Spirit thread I am only dealing with that which is presented in the Hebrew Scriptures, aka the Old Testament. (I will later be dealing with the New Testament as well.)

Mark, it isn't simply that there are "other groups of Jews who have different beliefs." Judaism as whole does not limit itself to only that which is contained in the OT. The Midrash is a vital part of Judaism, regardless of what branch/sect you are in. The Midrash is not something that is only used by "fringe" groups within Judaism. It is a vital part of all branches of Judaism.

In addition, debating the scriptures is a vital part of Judaism. It is an important part of study. So, while there are differences among the various branches and sects, you will find that they all rely upon the same basic books (Torah, Midrash, etc.). However, you may find that one group believes "Rabbi A" made a more sound and logical argument regarding a matter and another group may believe "Rabbi B" made a more sound and logical argument regarding a matter. But the arguments from both Rabbis are contained within the Midrash. Or one group may view a particular oral tradition as an old wives tale meant to impart a particular moral, while another group interprets it more literally.

There have been many views and opinions since ancient times about the nature of the spirit or soul. My purpose for starting this thread is to point out what the Scriptures teach, in contrast to what we were taught in TWI. The ideas expressed by various other sources, ancient or modern, would be a separate topic, outside the scope of what I'm presenting here.

Out of respect for Mark's purpose in started this thread, I am wondering of SirG, Cman, and Mr. P-Mosh would have any objection to me cutting and pasting the posts on the female aspects of God and moving them to SirG's resurrected thread on body, soul, and spirit??

Actually, you are mistaken, Mark. Although in Judaism it is not referred to as triune, it is there. Man has body and soul. Then there is Shekina, which Sir mentioned in your other thread. Shekina is "in dwelling" or "dwelling within" and it is there, in the OT. It is also in the Midrash (which is where you will find many of the oral traditions and rabbinical arguments).

I don't have a lot of time to "play" during the week, but I will try to get back to this over the weekend. I know I've covered a lot of this in threads that are long burried now.

I've heard some "new age" type religions talk about God having a wife, and I've heard about pagan religions having a God and a Goddess. What Jewish oral traditions suggest this?

hehhe, I was looking for it as you posted. It may be the weekend before I have the time to find it again. It's been a while since I've looked at this topic.