Abigail

Martindale added "in the household", Rosalie had it removed because the definition needs to trace back to VeePee.

Thanks. I left back in 2000.

Certainly the way it was manipulated against us in the way international.

Well yes. If I recall the Bible does make reference to the renewed mind. However, it also speaks of things being peaceful and easily entreated.

No derailing. I appreciate the insight. A lot of these threads I post are just my thinking via keyboard. It helps to get it out and learn from others. Even if it's a dead horse, to me it's part of regaining my sanity.

Believe me, that I get. For many years my posts were plastered all over the cafe as I did the same thing.

I understand The Forehead still thinks he is right and has done nothing wrong. But I really don't know that first hand. That's the rumor buzzed around HQ.

Truly to be pittied, if it weren't all so harmful to the lives of those who get sucked in. Which is why I have been so outspoken where our friend Mr. Trimm is concerned. Normally, I tend to be too empathatic and careful of other people's feelings. I'm sure James is a human being not entirely different from most of us. I have seen he has a sense of humor. I am sure he has feelings and they can be hurt. I would assume there are people who care about him and who he probably cares about in return. At this point, maybe he even does believe his own schtick.

But, none of that changes the fact that what he is doing is potentially hurtful to a great many people, if they too buy his schtick. Not because I have doctrinal differences with him. I have doctrinal differences with most of my friends. It is harmful because he puts himself out as someone who can lead, yet he lacks integrity, honesty, etc.

Not to completely derail your thread, but the whole renewed mind is a cult tactic. It was used to get us to do things (or not do things) even when everything inside us screamed it was wrong. It was a way to convince us we needed to ignore that still small voice inside of us, no matter how loud it got.

When did Martidale remove the in the household part? That must have happened after I left.

Many of their definitions were twisted beyond comprehension. Again, a cult tactic. What exactly does it mean to love someone in the renewed mind in manifestation? It is a bunch of gobbly gook invented so we would have to rely on THEM to tell us what it meant.

Sad, what happens to the con man when he buys his own con. You think that is how Martindale sees it too?

Cool.

So then failing to have a good argument against my research claims, you question my integrity?

This is a common logic error called "Argumentum ad Hominem"

In this error a proposition is rejected not because of its validity or soundness, but because of the reputation of the one making the proposition.

So even if your attacks on my reputation were right (and they are not) your logic is in error because this has no bearing in the validity or soundness of my propositions.

Yeah, yeah yeah, and just because VPW raped people it didn't guarantee his work was flawed. We've heard these arguments before too James. You are going to have to come up with something more original.

I lost interest in your research claim when it became apparent you were selling it. When it became apparent you weren't interested in having a discussion with anyone, because you already knew it all.

I called you out on your legalism in the doctrinal forum and in response you decided you weren't going to discuss doctrine there anymore. I called you out by contradicting your claim that Jewish people were required to go to the Synagogue every sabbath.

Bob has been clear about who he is so I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that he's in cahoots with James.

I don't see James as running a con job. He has a subject and doctrine he's passionate about.

To me, if someone wants to call himself Rabbi - which (if memory serves me) means teacher - and he is teaching - then I've got no gripe.

Although James hasn't been in TWI, the fact that he's had RECENT up close and personal contact with the higher ups of TWI says to me he's been sufficiently TWI-ised to talk about whatever he feels like talking about.

.

Okay, well forwarned is forearmed, etc. Nevermind that he calls himself Rabbi. Nevermind that he is another huckster with a "doctorate" from a non-accredited college. Nevermind that he calls his "academic journal" peer reviewed when in fact it has not been reviewed by anyone. Nevermind that he has appointed himself the 16th president of the Nazarenes (a sect that hasn't exited in 1,864 years give or take), much like Vic was going to teach us the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century). Nevermind that he and two of his buddies claim to be running a Yeshiva (Jewish School) even though he never even graduated from a Jewish Seminary. Is any of this starting to sound familiar to you Lovematters?

The fact that he has had a run-in with TWI does not mean he is full of honesty and integrity. And yes, he is free to talk about whatever he wants to talk about. And I am free to expose his con for what it is, unless the moderators decide to tell me otherwise.

And you are free to think of James how you choose to. You are free to look at the links that readily expose his con and dismiss them or you are free to ignore them altogether.

No this is the same "cult" I started in 1996 :-)....

But seriously I have tried to keep two things separate:

1. My academic research on Hebrew and Aramaic NT Origins

2. My religious doctrine of Nazarene Judaism

Why is it that when I try to discuss the first, people try to discredit me because of the second.... isn't that being a religious bigot ?

Perhaps, James, it is because you lie and manipulate? It isn't your doctrine that is in question, it is your integrity. If you lack integrity in promoting your work, odds are you lacked integrity when you were doing your work. Thus, odds are very, very good that your work is flawed.

Simimlarly, if you lack integrity your doctrine is also flawed. And because they are both dealing with religion they are to some extent intertwined.

James, I can see you say Nasi means President.

I'm simply astonished that you give names and dates (as you say) from 30CE to 132CE numbered 1 to 15 then leap jauntily from that to yourself as 16th president in 1996.

So this council lasts for a mere 100 years, for whatever reason does not continue, and then 1864 years later, 18.5 times the duration of the original council, it manages to reconvene itself and you magically appoint yourself as the next president?

I note you picked up on that, but didn't asnwer this:

Oh, don't be too shocked, Twinky. Afterall, it isn't any different from what VPW claimed when he said he was going to teach us The Word like it hadn't been taught since the first century. I'm sure somewhere out there are a bunch of very gullible and somewhat misdirected teenagers who will swallow James' b.s. too. Although, VPW did have an advantage in that the internet didn't yet exist when he started his little cult. James is going to have a difficult time overcoming that part. Especially given the ever growing wealth of information out there exposing his con.

Again not true. Although the event you describe never happened, I assume you refer to the claims of a failed splinter group and refers to events that took place in 2007. They split off and claimed to have disfellowshipped me after their having been removed from office a few days earlier.

My bad. That's right you started your first cult in 1996, got kicked out and then started this one in 2007. Hard to keep up with all the cons you've pulled James.

Well in the wake of my suit, yes that is something I might accomplish here. And even if I do not inspire these people to co-ordinate with me, if I inspire them to renew their work on Aramaic NT Origins then I have succeeded.

BTW if ex-TWI Research Team members started working on the ACADEMIC problem of Aramaic NT Origins OUTSIDE of TWI especially if they were acting as a "Team" formally or informally... don't you think that would be a stick in the eye of TWI?

That it might be, James. But at what cost? If sticking TWI in the eye means participating in the dishonesty and manipulation you have perpetrated here and elsewhere on the internet . . . . well I'd call that jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

NASI is simply "President" the point is that I am the president of the International Nazarene Beit Din which governs the Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim since we reorganized the Beit Din in 1996 as a successor to the one of which Ya'akov HaTzadim (James the Just) was the first president.

This is a matter of our beliefs, and outside the academic realm.

Well, at least he finally admits he is operating outside the academic realm, despite his frequent claims otherwise. He likewise admits HE (and his two buddies) decided they were the successors. Gee. . . . if I decide to appoint myself as the successor of the Apostles, does it make it so?

Also, I think the date is interesting. 1996 was when he and his buddies "reorganized" the Beit Din. That just so happens to be the same year the previous Beit Din he built got sick of him and disfellowshipped him.

See James, I can do research too. :D

Abigail,

I concur. Is there anything I can help with?

Bob

Well, I'm good thanks. I just didn't want you to take it too personally if some of the skepticism bled over onto you. If my memory is correct you have been around the cafe off and on for some time now. Some people may not know that and may assume you are trying to help James with his con job.

First issue of G'MIRA: A Journal of Semitic New Testament Studies

G'MIRA: is a non-sectarian electronic journal dedicated to the study of the Semitic origin of the New Testament. Articles may cover any of the any aspect of Semitic New Testament origins of all or parts of the NT including Hebrew or Aramaic NT Textual Criticism and Hebrew or Aramaic NT Source Criticism. G'MIRA will publish academic scholarly articles (full-length articles or shorter notes are both welcome), project reports, and book reviews in a web based electronic journal. G'MIRA will be published quarterly on the Web in .pdf format.

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8959000/8959636/1/print/GMIRA_2.pdf

Gmira-list is a non-sectarian e-mail discussion group devoted to the academic field of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament studies. The list is associated with the electronic journal.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gmira-list

G’mira—An Aramaic word meaning “perfect, full-grown, mature”

Submissions to G'MIRA

All submissions of articles and project reports, as well as general inquiries, should be sent to the General Editor in electronic form (Word format). Submissions may be sent directly to the General Editor or they may be mailed on CD rom to the following address:

James S. Trimm

G'MIRA

P.O. Box 471

Hurst, TX 76053

USA

Paper copies of articles may also be submitted, providing that they accompany an electronic copy of the same article.

Or emailed as an attached file to cleartruth@yahoo.com with the Subject G'MIRA SUBMISSION.

The following fonts should be used:

For English and Latin use the Times New Roman font

For Hebrew use the SPTiberian font

For Syriac use the SPEdessa font

For Greek use the SPIonic font

All submissions are subject to a peer-review process by the G'MIRA Editorial Board.

I would just like to point out, for those who don't generally go to the 'About the Way' section, that James has now acknowledged that his "academic journal" has not been peer reviewed. If you want more information on that, go read his thread on his "G'MIR" in the About the Way section.

I am clearly the editor and there is no deception there. I have already said, if you do not want to read the Journal, than do not read it.

Nice bait and switch there James. I never said you denied being the editor. What I said is that you said your journal is peer reviewed and clearly it is NOT. I also referenced your begging for money, which you attempted to deny by saying the website wasn't yours.

I have intentionally sought out some of the most serious scholars who were once part of TWI's research team, and sent them PDF copies of my book The Hebrew and Aramaic Origin of the New Testament, as well as the Issue of G'MIRA seeking their feedback (and perhaps even future participation in the Journal).

Is that supposed to lend you credibility? Well, maybe it will for those who were in TWI back in the early days, maybe it won't. I strongly suspect a large number of us here have little respect for TWI's so-called research team.

So far none of these persons have criticized the content (or even me personally) Certainly none of them has emailed back anything remotely suggesting that I have no idea what I am talking about.

Have any of them even responded to you at all???? If so, why not invite them to post here and tell us what they think of your work?

In this thread, along with James Trimm's thread about his thoughts on VPW, one can get some interesting insights into the mind of a cult leader (or at least a wannabe cult leader). You can see the lies and manipulation, as well as the self-justification and rationalization. James says below:

I did no such thing. They are directed by me, but they are for religious purposes.

As for "peer review" his Journal is less than a week old. I hope to expand the peer review process, perhaps before the next issue. But you must start building a house with one brick, when that first brick is ;aid everyone could stand around and jest saying "you can't have a house with just one brick". Geezzz.. give me a chance to build something before you start trying to tear it down.

I noticed a lot of criticism... but no criticism for the actual content....

That tells me a lot, and it speaks volumes.

In the first paragraph, he is responding to my statement that HIS website promoting his G'MIRA journal has a place where he is begging for money. He responds by claiming that the website is "directed" by him but is for religious purposes. More lies, manipulation, justification and rationalization. Here is the information I found on the editorial board for his "academic journal" CLICK HERE

Here is a link to the same website, where it lists who is in charge CLICK HERE

Notice the website is run by James and two of his buddies.

Also notice that although he promotes this academic journal as one that is peer reviewed, he has also admitted that he doesn't actually have any "peers" reviewing it. In other words, he lied. He promoted something as peer reviewed that has never actually been peer reviewed. Once again, James answering to no one but James, despite his claims to the contrary.

And you are correct James, I have no criticized the content. I haven't read the content. I have no interest in reading the content. The way I see it, if you had something genuine to offer, you wouldn't have to lie and manipulate to promote it.

Love,

What is your interest in these matters?

Just askin'.

Bob

And who are you, BTW?

Bob, please forgive us if some of us are a bit skeptical. But Mr. Trimm has given us good cause to be skeptical on this particular topic. One would think if he had something genuine to offer, he himself would have more honesty and integrity.

"and obviously those websites also solicit tithes and offerings."

Geez and I almost missed this. You snuck that in, right in the middle of those two pieces of honesty. James, don't pretend like that website isn't yours, like you aren't the one asking for tithes and offerings and donations. We all know better. That is dishonst and manipulative.

Well I'll say this James, your honesty in this regard is appreciated. However, you mislead people with your talk of 'academic journals" and "peer review" and with false titles of "Dr." and "Rabbi" etc. So, while I do appreciate this moment of honesty, true integrity would include knocking off the word games. You know, if you want people to read your stuff and decide whether they buy into it or not, you'd problably get a lot further if you'd quit trying to sound like something you aren't.

There are a number of people here at the cafe who are well studied in the Bible. And by that I mean people who have studied well beyond just what TWI taught. You could learn some things from them and perhaps even teach some things to them, if you would simply change your approach.

Coming at people like you have the answer, like you know a thing that no one has heard since the first century church is a big mistake around this place. We've all heard that garbage before.

I notice a simple google search of the g'mira editorial board takes us right to your website and at the bottom of the page you are once again begging for money.

I am very interested in receiving the old GMIRA articles and remain so.

G'MIRA is free and non-Sectarian... if you don't want to read G'MIRA then don't read it...

I am not out anything if you don't and I do not gain anything of you do. It is simply an academic journal.

What qualifies it as an academic journal? Your "doctorate" degree from a non-accredited seminary (if you truly even have one)? Your time in a Jewish Seminary (thus your use of the title Rabbi)?

Didn't you also say somewhere that it was peer reviewed? Who are the "peers" who reviewed it? Are these articles written by the Rabbi that cite James Trimm or are these written by James Trimm citing the "rabbi"? Or are the "Peers" more of your hand picked friends?

Believing to research, their would be a line crossed their; I can of think of Abraham, the dude just crossed that desert, I wonder if the word believing was in his mind, guts and trust kept one foot moving in front of the other. Believing to research, this seems to be one of those one liners; what do you think wisdom said about?

I didn't say believing to research, I said research isn't believing. In other words, you don't have to believe or agree with everything you read or come across in your research. If you are researching a particular topic, say angels, you can read many many books. It doesn't mean you have to accept any one of them as being accurate. But, even the stuff you reject you benefit from learning about. If nothing else, it gives you more information about the beliefs of some of the people who share this world with you.

I had panic attacks for a while after I first left, mostly because a part of me was afraid that what they had said was true. After while, nothing bad happened and I knew I made the right decision to leave. Then the panic attacks stopped. Life has been much, much better since I left. I found an inner strength I didn't know I had until I got out.

In the legal field when one is researching a topic, you keep going until you find yourself back at the beginning again. In other words, you read everything until you reach that place where you are once again reading what you have already read. It takes a great deal of patience sometimes. So, how far is too far? Well, for me far enough is when I have found what I was searching for and I am ready to move on to a new topic. I guess too far would be when I have grown so uninterested in the topic that I have lost motivation/curiosity.

Edited to add, researching does not equal believing. ;) You read it, you weigh it and decide if it sits peacefully or not. If it doesn't sit peacefully, toss it aside at least for now.

I sure hope Robert reads the VPW thread started by James in the About the Way forum before he sends the Mr/Dr/Rabbi any cash. ;)

I have a slightly different take on this. I think all of us (or at least many of us) made them the expert by allowing them to tell us how to live our lives. I am not condoning the terrible things perpetrated by some of the leaders in TWI, but we did give allegiance. So, when I was processing out of TWI one of the things I spent a lot of time working on, was understanding what it was about me that made it so easy for them. In doing so, I gained a better understanding of myself and that part of my life.

And here I thought she was winking at ME!

If it had been one of my grandmothers you would have gotten a pinch in the behind to go with the wink!

the entire concept of receiving revelations could likely be traced back as well. Except of course, in TWI, it was only true revelation if your leadership agreed with it.

Speaking in Tongues as taught be TWI for private prayer can be equated with meditation.