Seth R.

So much of the declaration's complaint about the King can be applied to George W. Bush. We are in trouble my friends, we have undue taxes, legislation setting up the repeal of the fourth amendment, the first and second have effectively been repealed already by other laws namely the so called patriot act, soon the 3rd amendment will be "optional" and the tenth amendment is a laughing stock! This President has Emperor-like powers, unprecedented abilities to over step the Senate and the House of representatives to order the Military about the world on his whim. The Things Emperor Bush has done would 200 years ago be treason against the people, he is an unlawful despotic tyrant that needs to made to answer for his crimes.

I for one am manning the bilge this ship isn't going down if I can help it.

Seth

Is it true women like men in uniform? ;)

Seth

None. They just take the millions they would make from the sale and it still belongs to them as far as I can tell. As long as they do not profit from it personally. Howerver according to Pat Roberge (may he rest in peace) Gunnison is a separate corpopration called Camp Gunnison, Inc. so not sure how that would come into play.

They should simplify and get rid of that huge headquarters land. It's senseless now in the modern day and times we live in. Reminds me of the Branch Davidian's 77 acre property in Texas.

All they need to do is transfer New Knoxville's assets to Camp Gunnison Inc. then the Owners of Camp Gunnison Inc. can sell the Ohio assets.

I doubt they would do that, real estate is always preferable to cash, New Knoxville sits on a natural spring I think so it's prime farming land. What's more likely is once they have milked the intellectual property of VPW's books and classes for all it's worth I think they'll drop back, retool and come out with something different. if they are smart.

Right now they are just riding it out trying to hold their ground and if they haven't burned up Uncle Harry's Gold then they have a line of credit that will hold them through the tight cash flow times. Plus there's the Credit Union...

Seth

I still don't remember hearing VP say that cancer IS a devil spirit. Caused by devil spirits, yes. Makes sense. Steal kill and destroy. Yeah, cancer does that.

In his tape THE HEALING WORD he said that at some point our believing stops and we die. He didn't say it was bad behavior on the part of the person, he said it was inevitable for everybody if the Lord tarries.

Nobody knows what "they" were believing and not believing during VPs last days. I would be willing to bet that they did whatever he told them to do and didn't do what he told them not to do.

He said it in so many words in the '79 Advanced Class, which was the class they showed us in '91 at the November AC at HQ.

I don't recall exactly either but, I'm 80% sure he said cancer was a devil spirit. I gave my notes to the dumpster years ago though.

As a cancer survivor I'll say I was totally freaked out when I got it in '97 as I still believed in TWI's garbage then.

Seth

People who decide to improve their lot often associate what they surrounded themselves with during the bad times with the bad times, i.e. an atheist turned Christian might associate atheism with their sad lot pre-conversion; a religious person turned atheist might blame religion for their previous problems, it's all in the perspective.

There is also a third perspective, those of us who were happy before someone told us there is a God to follow, we then tried to the best of our ability to follow that God. Wallowed in self-pity for a number of years because we just didn't seem to be believing strong enough, turned to another tradition that was shunned by our old god, found it agreed with our old god's world view. Then out of frustration remembered how happy we were (before we were told how unhappy we were) without God, and decided to become Atheist "again".

Something else wonderful happens, no god, then no devil, no heaven to hope for, but no hell to fear of. Ethics become less complicated, if a person does bad things they are a bad person, if a person does good things they are a good person, no more confusing ideas like if a person does good works but isn't born again then the good works don't count, or a murderer who is born again still is going to heaven. A whole bunch of logically weird and contradictory ideas just become invalid.

At least that's my perspective in a nutshell, I'm not interested in converting people, that's to much work I'd have followers then and I don't have time for that. I'm only interested in offering things for people to think about, I mean I spent so much of my time defending the faith blindly, I wonder how many others do the same.

I remember one day deciding to look up the biblical references to the red-thread you know what Jesus was suppose to be in each book of the bible. To my frustration I couldn't find all the references either in the Strong's or the Young's so the books I didn't see an obvious reference I began reading to see if there was a theme, I couldn't find one. This was the beginning of my dissolution, and that was 12-15 years ago. There were also many other topics I found near impossible to find that VPW taught. In my opinion there is a great amount of cognitive dissonance in the fundamentalist Christian mind because there is in my experience an overwhelming amount of internalized tension between what I as a Christian felt should be and the way things really are, it was maddening. I know I'm not unique, so in some sense I'm speaking to those who feel it, but are having trouble putting a finger on it. My message is "it's OK to question authority, even God's authority".

BTW, I actually developed a problem with alcohol while I was in TWI, go figure.

Thanks,

Seth

A little thought provoking media: http://www.truthbeknown.com/Zeitgeist-Rense.mp3

Seth

I was in a Barnes and Noble store with my (15 year old) son last June and we were both browsing. He came over to me and said, “Mom, look, there’s the Atheist’s Bible on a table labeled “Gifts for grads””.

I said something like, “What a great graduation gift for some young person just starting out on the road to where?, Here’s something to help you along. By the way, there’s no God, nothing to live for, no absolutes to help you make decisions about what’s right and wrong, no hope for the world. Oh yeah, “Have a nice life.” What a great gift.”

Not trying to put anyone down here, I’m just thankful that I have something better than that to give to my son.

Hi, I wonder if you ever *really* thought about how you would live your life if you found out irrefutable proof there is no god. O.K. now think, this a hypothetical scenario, there are no right or wrong answers, you just have to answer for yourself not any one else. Would you change how you live today? Some of us have changed our attitudes about what we think really is important, and found comfort in what we can experience today, rather then the promise of future rewards.

The picture painted by fundamentalists of Atheists is worse then the one they paint for Muslims, Jews and even satan worshipers. The mind boggles over the facts of the matter, but for most fundies facts never matter, it's only how they feel, and a lot of the time the hair on the back of their neck stands up when confronted by people who don't believe in god.

Seth

Thanks for the lively discussion, I'd love to continue to talk off this board with those who are free-thinkers, I'll be in touch.

You maybe interested in www.ted.com an awesome site. Also "What the *bleep* do we know?" is a great DVD worth buying.

Here's an interesting interview.

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/acharayas.html

Seth

I am a non-trinitarian Jesus believing God fearing sinner. I won't go into all of my sins. That would amuse some and probably bore most of you I'm sure. I have my stupid biases, prejudices, hang-ups. And gee. My names Rottie, I'm a.........fill in the blank.

Does that make everyone here happy? Thought not. I couldn't care less, and I doubt you do either.

Thanks for your lack of interest.

Sheesh! <_<

Oh, cool, good luck.

Seth

Well, at least you recognize some of your comments were inflammatory. I don't see any reason why you should recant having said them, especially if you're just being honest with yourself and those who question you. Nor do I see where Out There should have deleted the contents of his posts. Both are just opinions.

Stimulating conversation is always welcomed -- at least for me. That's probably why I've spent most of my time on atheist's boards. Not that you can't get them on theist's boards but my experience on them has usually been that theists will try to get atheists banned when they don't know how to counter their arguments.

Now you make sure you study that manual I gave you real hard. ;)

So are you inviting me to play nice with the religious people? Well I certainly think on this big giant list where all types of things are discussed my little post about being an Atheist shouldn't upset the apple cart. In the interest of balance I think I could have said it better. Instead of lies I could have said insufficient evidence, um on the point religious people being cattle fat dumb and happy grazers I should have just said consumers. Oh, and about believing the bible is the will of god, instead of stupid I should have said a dubious claim.

IF the religious people are right I'll probably end up as Rick's house servant for all of eternity, which I would do gladly if once in a while he'd let me drive his gold plated Caddi.

I get passionate about things, sometimes I shoot from the hip,

But when I get down and dirty, I might forget to bite my lip.

Seth

P.S. got the manual love it bookmarked it.

Did you get your manual in the mail yet? Make sure you study it diligently (to be approved before your fellow atheists). :)

I'm just curious Seth. Why did you feel compelled to announce your "coming out of the closet" on GS? Were you looking for support or an argument or both?

Hi Larry, LOL! I was looking for stimulating conversation, and boy did I get it. It's hard to capture my motives, but maybe to clear the air as to who I am now, why I post the opinions I do. I suppose if people read my posts assuming I'm a Christian they might be confused and think that's not very Christian of him. Of course the last 6 years I've been non-Christian here, I still think of myself as Buddhist because Buddhists don't need to believe in a god.

I'm not surprised that people came out in force, especially after I said a few inflammatory things, but I'm not going to recant. The reason is because I just said in a very blunt way what I would have said in more diplomatic terms, except I made my point allot quicker, and people did get it.

Seth

Be an insulting a$$ all you like. I won't stoop to your level and insult athiest's for not believing the same as I do.

See, I think it is the most insulting thing in the world to belittle someone for what they belive or don't believe when it comes to spiritual matters. YOU on the other hand think it's perfectly all right to do so.

Still wanna talk about character?

Rick

I'm glad you get my point, I absolutely think it's OK to belittle someone for what they believe especially on spiritual matters, because eventually the truth may come out. If it's true then no amount of belittling will matter. Why should it matter what I say? If I'm wrong then so be it I am willing to take that risk.

So many people have taken advantage of others in the name of Christianity, it boggles the mind when you see it for what it is, not what it should be. This is the essence of the problem, the followers are taught this is how it should be, the leaders do what ever they want, and the few that complain are silenced. So it perpetuates itself because the followers talk about how it should be and everyone agrees, yes it should be this way, but it isn't so we need to work towards it being that way. A couple millenniums go by and it's still not the way it should be, but let's keep working at it, after all he's watching and is coming back soon, so you know just in case we better keep trying to make it the way it should be. All the while the leaders are still doing what ever they want to do, which by now is so mysterious nobody questions it, and if they do they are excommunicated.

I guess if nobody wants me to talk about the emperors clothes or that large Pachyderm in the living room I won't, nah forget that I'll still talk about it. I'm not a lemming I don't need to blindly follow a leader over a cliff, who made that guy the leader any way? I'm not saying I'm sorry for what I said or even how I said it.

Seth

Seth, I think it's great you made such a decision for yourself, however I don't share your belief thats fine.

I don't know if you have noticed but not only is GS a group of ex-TWIers and a few others, but most importantly it is a group of Christians. Everybody who posts here posts as a Christian. We are pretty comfortable talking and even reproving one another (ie., Jonny and Cowgirl) because we are all part of one big family of Christians. I'm glad you are comfortable without hope and without God in this world. The rest of us here are not, And we found that the "little Baby Jesus" brought us hope and gave us a way to get back to God.

If you are not a Christian I don't believe you have any reason to post here any longer except to attempt to harass or to attempt to provoke us.

Seth, do us all a favor and sign off. go find a GS that is for athiest, you'll be much happier there. Don't come back here. People don't need to discuss such idiotic ideas. You are not doing anyone any service by posting here on this Christian site (same goes for any other Athiest who posts here)

Seth

Bluz and Sudo - When did I ever say 'BAN'? A gentleman would have came out and then seen that he doesn't really have anything in common with us here and would have left. and Sudo your how dare they bit shows what a lack of a thinker you must be. Are you an athiest. lets use percentages. if we used a poll with a two simple questions 1. is this a christian forum yes or no and 2. are you a christian yes or no. what do you think the results would be

Aahh I can't believe I am replying to the such stupid remarks you made. Hey have you visited the what church do you go to thread. there is a cannabis smokin, anglo-lovin, black person hatin, mushroom poppin guy over there. I wonder how many people have died as a result of his "christian beliefs".

BMan, I am insulted by his promotion of his non-belief here and the defense thereof, what are you going to do about it?

Seth

Trust me, you don't want to go toe to toe with me. Would be the biggest mistake of your life.

And yeah, I got you beat on IQ's.

Too bad you didn't have enough class to just apologize for being offensive, but this post of yours tells a lot about your (lack of) character.

Rick

First I didn't say I wanted to go toe to toe with you I said if you and I did you'd have your Christian friends to back you up.

Second I didn't say what my IQ was now, just that back in 2nd grade it was 130.

Third I don't have to apologize for what was in your opinion "offensive" I think lies and myths are offensive, especially when dressed up like the truth. OK I offend you, on a topic by characterizing religion as lies and that I think the bible being the will of god is stupid, why? Why does this offend you? Why go for the flank, can't you attack from the front, instead of going for the "you offended me" tactic, why not counter my argument? Bring up your proof as to why I'm wrong about my statements. Then maybe we can have a discussion about character.

Seth

Chimpanzees also conduct a form of warfare. Seeking out and killing those outside their group, and even eating their victims.

That certainly proves another point, so why do we need religion to justify going to war? Let's just be honest, we want their oil, or land or gold or women, what ever, just let's not lie about it and say we are trying to get the evil doers.

Seth

OK I want to state right from the get-go that I have NO problem with anything that anyone chooses to believe, or not believe. There are at least 2 self-proclaimed "infidels" here that I consider good acquaintences (I don't use the term "friend" lightly, and haven't met either one of them in "real" life, that is why I did not use the term friend).

That being said, I don't care if Seth is an athiest. Guess Buddhism wasn't working out for him.

However I will say this. Seth do you think you could be MORE insulting to those of us who ARE Christians?

Aside from that I find your avatar to be highly offensive also.

Now see not ONE person has taken Seth to task for being offensive to Christians. But God forbid that a Christian be offensive to an athiest.

OK, flame away. I really couldn't care less.

Rick

Oops! I guess I got carried away, but ask all those who were killed because they were *not* Christian if my words were offensive. Ask the millions of people today who are in fear of saying they are Atheist because it may cost them their job, or worse. Get off your high horse, you are in the majority, that makes you a bully because if we were going toe to toe you could hide behind your Christian friends. And as far as IQ's go please, do tell? Mine was 130 in 2nd grade, I'm a little bit smarter now.

Seth

How right you are, glad I have the sky giant to help me in life so I don't need to spend my time and money on one. That leaves more for other things in life, being in bondage to pay a therapist is sorta like being in bondage to tithe every month isn't it?

LOL who says I pay for it? I'm a veteran I get it for free. Shhhh, don't tell Uncle Sam, He might think I'm un-'Merican for not believing in little baby Jesus.

Seth

Abso-frikkin'-lutely amazing how Jonny takes Oakspear's comment about "one could grab for all the gusto now, make life worth living now, cram as much living as can be crammed into the years one has now!" and totally *distort* it into something immoral, unethical, and abusive -- a rendering that is totally in line with how a lot of Christians are *blindly* indoctrinated (almost tempted to say 'brainwashed' ;) ) that atheists are without morals and ethics, and simply because said atheists don't believe in a god.

Ie, Jonny, dispite your 100+% dedication to your religious beliefs (or maybe I should say because of such dedication <_< ), you have NO idea of what you're talking about when you speak about atheists and how they view things.

NO idea whatsoever. ((shakes head)) ... and I oughtta know, as I used to have the same distorted viewpoints regarding atheists.

Garth makes a great point here, there was someone who studied primate behavior and they said chimps and gorilla's exhibit moral behavior, now these are animals who for all we know don't worship a god. Could someone explain this to me? Morality must be programmed into us, as a process of evolution, it's only when man goes against his genetic imperative that we have crime and immoral behavior and need to make up stories about good and evil, to justify man's sick behavior.

Who is Bonzo's sky giant? Ronald Reagan?

Seth

Ya know, it really amuses me seeing how some people try to describe atheism or atheists. Especialy when they use that old canard that VPW himself once used: "An atheist is one who doesn't believe in anything, and everybody believes in something. Therefore you can't really be an atheist."

Basically put, an atheist is one who doesn't believe in a god or supernatural being(s). ... Period. ... That's all she wrote. Simple.

See how easy that was? :)

Eagle and Garth,

The Definition "Believe in nothing" is for Nihilists. Atheists believe in something just not a single all-powerful invisible something that says it's the boss and to follow the rules or else, but doesn't enforce the rules and let's people think their imaginations are god talking to them.

Seth

One could look at it as bleak, or one could grab for all the gusto now, make life worth living now, cram as much living as can be crammed into the years one has now!

BINGO!

Seth

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pulling Seth aside: I sure hope you checked with your leadership first, before doing something like this].

Thanks! [Actually my leadership suggested it 12 years ago when I was asked not to come back to twig, I'm a really bad procrastinator, LOL!]

Seth

Yeah, "brights"? Ugh, what a bogus, self-serving term that was. Fortunately, I don't think it caught on.

Welcome to the club Seth. The superstition and intellectual dishonesty gets to ya after awhile, don't it?

I'm not sure life is all that much rosier on the unbelieving side (well, except for being and to rape and murder without the slightest twinge of conscience - that comes in handy) but at least we don't have to do all the goddam mental gymnastics anymore. I was getting a brain cramp...

Right I had my conscience removed when I became Atheist... WTF? LOL! My conscience and moral center are firmly intact and even more so now that I don't have confusing lies telling me why I should act so. Morality is an evolutionary feature of all primates, we don't need a god or religion to tell us how to act we are hardwired by evolution for it.

There is much confusion over what an Atheist is, I just don't believe there is an all powerful single guiding intelligence that runs the universe. I do believe something powers this universe I just don't think it's all powerful or intelligent, it could be explained by quantum theory or string theory.

Some people think Atheists are against religion, not really, but if you push me I might push back. It's religion that is against Atheism, because religion aims at population control, and the powers that be don't care what brand you use, just so long as you consume their product and think how they want you to think, basically they want cattle, fat dumb and happy grazers. Ask no questions, and they will tell you no lies.

Is it so much to ask people to seriously look at what they believe and investigate the facts of the origins of their religion? I mean the real origins not what the bible says about itself, (it's so stupid people really think this tiny little book is god's will.) of course the book's author is going to tell you how great the book is, hello!

Seth

I've been wanting to post this for a while now, but I was busy and I was still adjusting to it. It's been about a year since I dumped the dogma, I feel cleaner and more free then I ever have, my friends even like me better!

I'm also now a humanist, a realist, and a better adjusted guy then I used to be.

I'd like to say more about it but I need to get to bed I have my therapist in the morning.

Seth

P.S. google zeitgeist movie, watch it, it will blow your mind.

First according to other sources the River Dolphin is not quite dead yet. The official report was based on only one survey, you can't make an ultimate statement on one survey, it's statistically and scientifically shallow.

Second we have more to be concerned with over the next 45 years then CO₂ and ozone depletion, and that is population. Food water and land are going to be even more valuable then they are today.

The simple thing we can do is use carbon neutral fuels, buy locally grown food support small local vender's, use pedal-power to get back and forth to work and school, and when visiting friends.

The population problem is only going to get worse when the HIV vaccine is made widely available, and once the new cancer treatments come out.

I think however there maybe a disaster looming with the out of control consumption going on in this country, we saw a glimpse of it with the pet food recall, the corporate greed in this country is going to kill more consumers if we keep allowing China's inferior food across our borders onto our tables.

Seth

John Thanks for the hard research and work at making public what I would say many TWI followers would have a hard time even thinking about looking for. Like VPW's death cert, talk about a cold shower!

Seth

I believe if I flip this light switch the lights will go on, big Efing deal. What would impress me is if the bill wasn't paid for 6 mos and the lights still came on. Idiots.

S