Taxidev

On 7/4/2018 at 7:05 AM, skyrider said:

And, to this day......there are dozens of splinter groups that still idolize wierwille as the grand wizard........er, great one.  Deceived and deceiving others. What a delusional way to live.

This is definitely the R&R group.  I have given them time and space to show themselves, and they certainly have.  Rocky, DWBH, and I can't remember everyone else, you are all correct.  They have proved themselves to be idolaters of VPW, rather than restorers of true Christianity. 

I brought up a question, and all they did was parrot back VPW's stance on the topic.  As if that answered my question.  It was just a call for  blind obedience, like the roman church does.  They are more interested in defending his position than getting to the truth.

13 minutes ago, chockfull said:

"I have to go make a phone call to my earthly family".  It leads to so many questions:

1. Why?  Were you abducted by aliens and they adopted you?  Do they have shared custody?
2. Will you get sufficient reception for the call on your tinfoil hat or do you need to use a cell phone?
3. Do you think the alien spaceship commander will approve the long distance minutes for your call to earth?

LOL.

Double LOL!!!!

On 7/5/2017 at 2:50 PM, rrobs said:

Jesus plainly said we would do the works he did and then some

There is a huge difference between works and abilities.  Having the ability to discern a devil spirit is vastly different than casting that devil spirit out.  

On 7/5/2017 at 8:04 PM, WordWolf said:

it refers to having the pleasure of leading people into "The New Birth." 

I'm inclined to agree.  This would absolutely be one of the "greater works".  I have been pondering on what the others would or could be.

On 7/5/2017 at 8:16 PM, Infoabsorption said:

Without a doubt speaking in tongues TWI style was the most phony aspect of TWI I've ever experienced.

I have also found this.  After a while I realized people were babbling the same 8 or 10 sounds, with a vastly different message each time.  How could that be?

I think Infoabsorption hit it on the head with this one:

On 7/5/2017 at 7:34 PM, Infoabsorption said:

To receive these spiritual gifts maybe we need to clean our act up and get close to the Lord.

On 7/11/2017 at 5:52 AM, Twinky said:

To start with, "all nine all the time" is such nonsense.  "All the time"?

Agreed, Twinky.  Just another catch phrase to lock us in.

And this brings me to my big question: in 1 Cor 12 I am unsure of this section -

1Co 12:4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 
1Co 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 
1Co 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 
1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 

Often I can look at Thayer and Strong for the Greek, but this section isn't as clear as others I've looked at.  The direction and the operator of these verbs is what I'm having issue with, probably because of years of TWI teachings.  But I'm leaning toward not everyone has all of them, at least not at first.

Any ideas?

10 hours ago, Twinky said:

So thankful for the outstanding Christians that I have encountered in my church, the parent church, the local abbey (traditional main city church). and the very many people I've encountered through Christian organisations I'm involved with.

You are very fortunate.  I live in a very selfish part of the country, so finding true Christians that actually care about people is proving to be a challenge.  In my area, they mostly seem to be pretend Christians - "(and preaching in church is only a small part of it)" - going through the show on Sundays.  But I won't give up.

A while back, Louisiana had been devastated by a hurricane - Katrina, I think - and TWI did absolutely nothing.  I remember thinking how odd it was that other Christian organizations, albeit larger, were contributing money, supplies, and people to aid in the rescue and rebuilding operations.  Apparently, enough people voiced their disappointment and HQ sent a token to them, but only after being pressured.  How sad that it took being pressured.

29 minutes ago, chockfull said:

THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD DISTINCT FROM THE BODY OF CHRIST

Perfect!  I didn't even need to read more.  Now I completely agree with you.

OMG!!!  What an EVIL POS!!!

On 6/23/2018 at 2:06 PM, chockfull said:

THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD.

The point you are making is very interesting, so much so that I had to look this up in my bible.  And here is what I found:

Gal_6:10  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Eph_2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

So, according to Paul, there certainly is a household of God.  However, in the context of the verses, and looking at the Greek for faith and God, there isn't any limitation on where that household actually is.  In other words, in the bible there is no stipulation as to actions one would be taking, or location, or manner of fellowship, or obedience to anyone other than God.

So, while I completely agree with the basic point you made, I absolutely disagree with this quoted statement.

Nothing was announced in my area.  All I knew was he wasn't on the BOD anymore.

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

So just for fun I put waysider's last post through a "Shakespearean translator".

Interesting that the secondary title is "A mostly innaccurate Shakespearean translator"

1 hour ago, TLC said:

God-breathed

Yes, I believe Paul had real authority when it came to preaching and teaching the truth of God and Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean what he wrote was God-breathed.  Or maybe it just depends on what your understanding of God-breathed really is.

1 hour ago, waysider said:

Paul's epistles must be God-Breathed because it says so right in the epistles.

I wonder if that is referring only to the Torah.  It doesn't actually say "my epistles are God-breathed", or some such.

9 hours ago, skyrider said:

WARNING:  Every splinter group starts out friendly and teaches on love and giving.

This is my first "experience" with one.  Quoted because my involvement is minimal.

I don't doubt that you are correct.  Time will tell.

16 hours ago, WordWolf said:

E-sword

Yup.  That's what I start with.

3 hours ago, Twinky said:

Frankly, now, I find it impossible to read, or hear read, the AV (what you call KJV), for a variety of reasons, one of which is the mindset I find myself being dragged back into, and dubious teaching brought back.  There are other threads here about what Bible versions people prefer, and why.

I like to start with the KJV, then look at others for more depth.  I have multiple versions available, so it's very easy.  I do that because God led me, some 40 years ago, to purchase a KJV, my very first bible.  That was quite an experience, and it was many years before meeting TWI.  And because I so enjoyed Shakespeare as a teen, it was no challenge for me to understand that old language.

15 minutes ago, Twinky said:

My question is: these teachers - are they doers of what they say? even more, are they doers of what the Bible commands them to do? and do they lead others into doing by example?

I find it truly fascinating to watch transformation.  I have had the benefit of watching 2 boys grow and transform (actually, one is still in process), increasing in their understanding of themselves and the world around them.  This is pretty much the same.  How so?, you ask?  Well, I'll elaborate.

The homeowners were in the way corps, but they have been branch coordinators only.  They stepped down for personal reasons, some being the micromanagement from HQ.  As fellowship coordinators, they cooperated only minimally.  I was speaking with the husband a while back about quite a few topics, both of us realizing that our understanding wasn't quite in line with TWI.  It led to many interesting discussions into the Word, looking at it in so many different ways.

And, he has been quite vocal about the bogus rules propounded by TWI.

However, they were in the way corps, and for a good number of years.  So, after departing ways with the way - haha - they have been cleaning out, and I have been able to watch it happen.  So, while they haven't yet begun to reach out to people in the community - I think having to move recently may have hindered that - they do seem to be heading in that direction.  They have expressed concern for people in general, and they emphasized multiple times that this is the form of giving we should be doing, to local people in need.

13 minutes ago, skyrider said:

Knowing the history of these corps coordinators and all those corps teachings on spiritual vigilance,

I'm sorry, I should have qualified that the first teacher wasn't one of the original founders of the group, for "love as our motivation", but the second was.

That might not make a difference for you, but I felt you should know.

I'm sure I mentioned this somewhere here, I enjoy listening to many teachers from different organizations.  And it's so easy to do that now with the internet, youtube, their own web sites, and yes, even TV.  So I'm really not looking for more than that from them.  I have my local fellowship, and we have some very good teachers.  We aren't truly associated with R&R, but we do have a connection with them, of a sort.

18 minutes ago, skyrider said:

all the ridiculous gyrations we went thru to mimic like we were actually there.   Ugh.

I remember those, they WERE ridiculous.  I avoided those, especially clapping.  I figured, they can't hear me, so what's the point.

3 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

So carry on 

Beer it is, then!

On 6/23/2018 at 8:03 AM, skyrider said:

Will the new R&R group be one that teaches or indoctrinates?

Well, I was on the call for "love as our motivation" and "genuine giving".  Not surprisingly, at least for me, these were done with the view toward how we live in the world, how we relate to other people; all people.  There was no subtle message about preferring the body of believers/household/fellowship at all. 

Living with love toward all others.  Giving - in any manner, not focused on money - with a pure heart, not looking for payback, but with the understanding that the best payback will come from God.

2 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

In Kittel's Theological Dictionary entry under pistis there's a fairly good amount of tracing it's meaning throughout history and written occurrences, and trust seems to be a much better English word to define "pistis".

My understanding of this word has always been, "A complete confidence in or of", which ran across what was propounded by TWI.  But every research tool I used that didn't come out of TWI NEVER defined it the way they did.  I think one of them came a little close, but that was it.

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Yes I WAS a broken wineskin - but have moved on from that...

I am genuinely thrilled for you.  Consider yourself toasted to, with beer or wine, whichever you prefer.

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

the reciprocal cause and effect of using wierwille’s “wine” and patched up wineskins (cultic mindset) and it will eventually aggravate and intensify their blindness, callousness and egotism...

As chockful pointed out in here , "They have accepted no learning centers outside of TWI based doctrine.  They interact with no other Biblical scholars.  They take input from no other Christians, except those that agree to go to their fellowships."  Seems you are both in agreement, and it makes perfect sense to me.

As I responded to him, I hadn't even considered that until moments ago.  The disappointments are beginning to accumulate.

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

They have accepted no learning centers outside of TWI based doctrine.  They interact with no other Biblical scholars.  They take input from no other Christians, except those that agree to go to their fellowships.  

I don't wonder at all.

You know, I think you are 100% correct.  I hadn't given it much thought until I saw this.  There's no indication anywhere that they are looking to any other viewpoints than VPW and Steven Longley's recent research.

Wow!

22 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

I'm curious how long it will be before the first higher-up from RnR leaves to do his own personal thing,  claiming the others don't listen.  Past experience with twi splinters suggest it won't be much longer....

Well, I will be watching.

1 hour ago, skyrider said:

Just because they have not asked for money............does not mean that they are not deceiving or being deceived.

Fair enough.  And that's why I was only referring to the money.

30 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Tell me, what does that prove? 

"Apparently" appears to mean you don't really know. What DO you know about that?

I do know many of them work.  At one point, a few of them were looking for work and/or had interviews setup and asked for others to pray for them.  Those people did get work.  Others I had already known were working because they weren't at HQ in Ohio, they were on the field and working already.  "Apparently" is regarding the remainder.

32 minutes ago, Rocky said:

To understand beyond the surface intent may require you to learn key concepts outside the realm of TWIness. I would ask them AND ask you to consider how on God's green Earth they could do anything different from what they've practiced for 40 and 50 years if they can't give thought to any knowledge (teaching) from any source other than the cult they've become fossilized in already.

That's an excellent point - hence my wariness.