Nathan_Jr

The error of four crucified is not explained by fundamentalism. It's surprising that this actual error was invented by a man as educated as Bullinger. That he would point to an 18th century cemetery in France as supporting evidence is even more surprising for such a man, until you find out he was a fervent flat earther. Then, it's, "Ohhhhhh..."

It's surprising that a scholar as proficient in languages as Bullinger would fail so profoundly to understand how translation works and why word for word literal translations of idiomatic expressions like ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν are ineffectual. The word "one" wasn't added in the way it is suggested. It is not a corrupt interpolation motivated by some nefarious agenda. Translators add words sometimes so an expression in the source language will make sense in the target language. This is not a radical idea. 

That Bullinger pretended not to understand ἐντεῦθεν is an adverb modifying the verb crucified and answering the question "Where?" is beyond astonishing. It does not modify "two." That Bullinger defecates on all that he should know about Greek and English is suspect. Who now has the nefarious agenda? Why would he invent such deception?

Four crucified is so blatantly inaccurate and irresponsible that, for me, it calls into question everything Bullinger wrote. I'm not saying Bullinger was wrong about everything, just that everything he wrote deserves scrutiny.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

So God rested sat on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.  Did vp explain why God would need (or want) to even sit?  I understood the 7th day of creation was a model of what God would later command the Israelites to do no work on the Sabbath so they would solely focus on all God had done for them.  Another reason was the Sabbath pointed towards the Messiah's completed work of redemption at which time man would cease needing to keep the law to be right before God. 

So why would this "revered man of God" say God simply sat?  What was the spiritual significance of God sitting?  I don't get it. 

Right.

He very briefly and stupidly mentions the Hebrew radicals (the sequence of consonants forming the root of the verb) and that they are the "most difficult radicals in all of Hebrew"... yada yada bull yada shonta... but quickly trails off because he has no fcking clue what he is talking about and then changes the subject to Paul and what he says about Christ sitting at the right hand of God... yada bull yada shonta... therefore, BOOM! Shabath means to sit, not to cease working, because God doesn't need to rest, he sits, Sits, SITS!!.. See, kidz? Math! Accuracy!

Like in so many sermons or "teachings," he mentions something technical (or mundane) that he read once or heard somewhere or imagined in a fantasy but never quite understood, because stupidity, and he regurgitates it incorrectly, hoping his audience won't understand it, either, but will be impressed with the esoterica and just smugly mutter, "Mmmmph."

Short answer: E. Coli-laced word salad.

And he is a charlatan.

Here is another example of victor contradicting himself. There are hundreds of examples of this kind of error laced throughly throughout "his writings" and recorded sermons. Either he was a liar or just stupid, or both. Either way, he hoped no one would notice or question the dead rabbits pulled from his hat.

If one digs beneath the glowing, seductive, superficial word salad of his "teachings," one can find out. Now, this effort will require a sharp and sturdy tool to penetrate the thick, petrified crust of bullshonta. An infant's fingernail should suffice.

I want to know what the text says. I have no doctrinal agenda. (For a doctrinal perspective, go to WordWolf's excellent discussion of Genesis 1 he started in the Doctrinal forum.)

As far as I can tell, there is no adverb then in Genesis 1:2. There is no textual evidence supporting victor's bloody rabbit. None. NONE. To say there should be is to tip one's hand to using an eisegetical process of "private interpretation" - a method victor CONSTANTLY railed against!

To your point, like the serpent, victor added words to the text ALL THE TIME. As you know, he also deleted words, even entire paragraphs - "Cross it out!" Indeed, there are inauthentic, interpolated words and verses that made it into the Bible, but only those that didn't fit victor's glove were crossed out. And he crossed out added words because he didn't understand how translations work, as in John 19:18.

victor also frequently changed the meaning of words. Partly because he didn't understand how language works and partly as a means to force fit his voodoo into his bloody glove. Further into Genesis at chapter 2 verse 2, he changes the meaning of the Hebrew verb shabbath. He says it means SIT, not REST, and not that it should mean SIT, but that it actually means SIT, because God doesn't need to REST. A complete invention! Total bullshonta! A blatant lie from the mouth of a liar! Shabbath means to cease, to desist, to rest (from labor), to stop working. Period. It never, ever, EVER means to sit.

Right. Errancy is only a problem for inerrantists, but I don't see a contradiction among the gospels requiring linguistic gymnastics, magic tricks and glove fitting. Luke says from the very beginning he studied many accounts before writing his version. Maybe the majority of his sources had one of the bandits asking for mercy, and the simple math convinced him, so he includes it in his narrative. What's the problem?

The links I provided above deal with John 19:18. It all starts in The B-Greek Forum, a very geeky place for scholars, teachers, hobbyists and students of Ancient Greek - lots of PhDs and ThDs and MDivs and grad students and language nerds. A wonderful forum of civility, humility and expertise - no doctrine, only language.

The thread I posted was started by someone who sounds like a Wayfer or a member of an offshoot or a Bullingerite. Here is the original post:

I have a two part question. The first has to do with the expression found in John 19:18, (" καὶ μετ' αὐτοῦ ἄλλους δύο ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν μέσον δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν), " and with him others two on this side and that and in the middle Jesus.".

This expression is also found in Revelation 22:2, (εν μεσω της πλατειας αυτης και του ποταμου εντευθεν και εντευθεν ξυλον ζωης ), "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life".

There is a similar expression in Ezekiel 47:7, (ἐν τῇ ἐπιστροφῇ μου καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐπὶ τοῦ χείλους τοῦ ποταμοῦ δένδρα πολλὰ σφόδρα ἔνθεν καὶ ἔνθεν), "Now when I had returned, behold, on the bank of the river there were very many trees on the one side and on the other."

Most of the translations I've read have something like this: "Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle." They all seem to take the number "duo" as a total, rather than distributing it with the expression. Why are they doing this, and why wouldn't "duo" be distribued in the expression? 

The second part of my question is with regards to the word "allos", which as I understand it, is a numerical distinction, the second of two where there may be two or more, rather than the Gr. "heteros" , or "another of a different kind, (usually denoting generic distinction)" as used in Luke 23:32, "Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed".

In the examples from Ezekiel and Revelation, the "many trees", and the "tree of life" are distributed with the expression, why isn't this the case with "duo" in John 19:18?

Thanks,
Ted Twitchell

Errors of translation abound throughout PFAL, indeed, throughout the entire corpus of victor's transcribed sermons, aka collaterals.

I've held onto these bookmarks for years. Like arguing against a flat Earth or against Geocentrism, arguing the blatant error of four crucified is just exhaustingly daunting. Black is not white and white is not black, no matter how well you think your gloves fit.

Four crucified is an actual, not an interpretive error, though it is also that.

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=950&p=33635&hilit=Niedergall#p33635
 

https://niedergall.com/an-obscure-greek-question-no-longer-waiting-for-an-answer/

5 hours ago, waysider said:

But, you know, you could have those things, too, if you just believed big enough and got a clear picture of what you wanted.

 

And factor all this with a geometric relationship to your needs…

Mmmph!

…just a tremendous kernel …a real dandy of an equation… a mathematically precise glove.

On 4/1/2024 at 11:59 PM, WordWolf said:

In order to do damage control, twi insisted on a response posted here- so all the current twi and ex-twi could read it.

 

Did they merely insist, or were they successful in getting it posted here? Link?

2 hours ago, penworks said:

FYI: I also have a PDF of that LIFE Magazine article, but it's too large to post here.

Charlene,

Is the PDF posted to your blog?

13 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

With all the money we give, we have to give more so he can have a fancy bike? i brought it up at a Junior Corps meeting and was yelled at and sent to bed. Loudly being reproved for being right is a terrible way to raise a child.      

Gaslighting is abuse. In the name of God or Truth, it is abject, reprehensible, wicked abuse.

It is born of a spiritual poverty by those who beleeeve the spiritually impoverished.

Caesar was messiah before Jesus…

…victor paul wierwille anointed himself with delusions of snow…

…then, Then, THEN vic rubbed oil (fcking OIL!) on bitch-boy Loy’s head, making him Caesar…

And here we are…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/01/us/politics/trump-2024-religion.html
 

Long live Caesar!
 

I’ve tried to find a mission statement or statement of purpose for the cafe. Though I couldn’t find one, it seems self evident, and seems to be neither religious nor anti-religious.

It seems all voices are welcome. Even designated sub forums exist to ensure space for varying voices to be heard. (Even Mike and his bloody gloves are welcome here to make murder legal in California!)

I never knew how hateful and destructive humans could be, including so-called Christians, until I unwittingly married into a family controlled by an OG Corps “grad.” This website has helped me immensely to sort out the pathology of the cult The Way International, Inc. I am grateful for all the atheists and all the Christians who are free to post here. I have learned much from both.

6 hours ago, Twinky said:

In the FAQs section of its website,

This Bible also features a copy of:

• Handwritten chorus to “God Bless The USA” by Lee Greenwood
• The US Constitution
• The Bill of Rights
• The Declaration of Independence
• The Pledge of Allegiance

*Hello, Irony.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

What I found in TWI is that so much was governed by unspoken rules so that people had to know these unspoken rules or face consequences.  The politics side of that is one of those scenarios.  You have little lemmings pulling up to little voting boxes and all pulling the same levers because that’s what good lemmings do.  There was no diversity of opinion or thought.  This is the biggest travesty - environments for producing Stepford robots with no propensity for freedom of thought or opinion.

“I’ll tell you what to think.” - L. Craig Martindale

@Charity@Twinky  

*Wowzerz, this slope is slippery! A fun topic, but dangerous. Trying to mind my Ps and Qs, but damn these sans serifs!!*

To Raf's earlier point about long-standing intertwining of church and state, two of the most powerful and influential lobbies in Washington are religious, the Family and AIPAC. (One might argue AIPAC is merely pro-Israel, not pro-Jew/Judaism, but Netanyahu is on record saying there is no difference.)

Also, we have a presidential candidate presently selling Bibles for personal  profit, as you may be aware. (I can imagine wierwille taking credit for this idea, as he did for the hook shot.)

I'm not sure which came first, the political grifter of the pseudo-religious huckster, either way, sometimes they are indistinguishable.

“…question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.”

This is not difficult to imagine at all. To presume this isn’t already going on is, well, presumptuous and a failure of imagination.

And we already have multi-party elections. 

4 hours ago, RevRyan24 said:

 

Does anyone know anywhere on-line to access either the original Leonard or copied (?) teachings on the gifts of the Spirit?

Thanks, all!

Did you try contacting his ministry directly?

https://ctcoftexas.com/about/

21 hours ago, Rocky said:

Please explain. 

I’m inclined to invoke Louis Armstrong here, but you said please.

It’s an additional upvote, an ironic one. 

Mmmph

Gaslighting is among the most devastating darts in the thief’s quiver. Manipulation by gaslighting steals, kills and destroys sanity.

(I shudder to consider the abject wickedness you endured… to blame a father’s “believing” for the physical condition with which his precious child is born… no words, only vomit…)

The insanity persists only until that moment of clarity, that awakening, which you have had.

I don’t think you are crazy at all. I am grateful for all the insight and facts you have recorded here. And for the laughs. Thank you, OldSkool.

To your point about consensus, I think the scholarly consensus these days is Moses did not exist as a historical figure. The opposite position was consensus not too long ago.

Concerning the author of that book on Jesus’ “lost years” in India,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holger_Kersten
 

Considerations on other frauds and forgeries at the bedrock of that theory are here, https://ehrmanblog.org/did-jesus-go-to-india-a-modern-gospel-forgery/

3 hours ago, Raf said:

IF Acts is correct about Paul and the apostles

We don't have the apostles' side of the story, only Paul's and whoever wrote Acts to make Paul's claims fit just right. It seems to me Acts is fan fiction.

Does the chronology of Paul's travels in Acts even line up with what Paul himself chronicles in his own letters?

I know, I know. There's a glove for that.

Don't forget about Tacitus.

I suspect those talking badly of Paul were in the minority, limited to a few orthodox sects of Judaism. Maybe even those who received the secret teachings directly from Jesus himself did, also. Or maybe they ignored him as they ignored all the other apocalyptic preachers who just knew that they knew that they knew God’s timeline.

I might say, poor Paul…

….But Paul won!

Even among the various Christian sects, later called heretics like the Marcionites and gnostics, Paul was championed.

So, I won’t say, poor Paul. He got what I suspect he always wanted: the last word. 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Saul of Tarsus could become the linchpin in someone’s faith I guess.

I mean if you just compare surface stories it might show similarities between Saul of Tarsus, Joseph of Utah, and Victor of Ohio.

Should we do a harmony of the meeting Jesus stories?

 

Or we could compare victor’s letters to “his corps” with those Paul wrote to his more problematic ekklesiae.

A tone of whiny passive-aggression pervades both. 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

The essence is questioning the reliability of Josephus given nobody claims divine inspiration for his writings but many want to squeeze that last bit of profit making juice out of scriptural writing.

If Josephus or anyone else claimed his writings to be divinely inspired, I would be even more skeptical.

I've said many times here on GSC: The one who claims to speak for God is surely the one who does not.

I apply that to victor and to any charlatan wearing that glove and also to those with misapprehensions and mental illnesses. And it is one of many reasons why I question Saul of Taurus.