Mark Sanguinetti

God and Jesus Christ give people the free will to believe what they want to believe. As an example of free will for humanity, Thomas, one of the 12 original disciples, later to be called apostles, did not believe that Jesus was risen from dead until he saw Jesus in his resurrected body, while even needing to touch Jesus Christ where He had been nailed to a cross.

John 20:25
25 ….So he (Thomas) said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." (NKJV)

Finally when Thomas saw Jesus, while even needing to touch Jesus Christ, he fully believed in Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior.  

John 20:26-28
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!"  27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"  (NKJV)

Maybe Raf, when sometimes reading his posts sounds like Thomas. 

4 hours ago, Raf said:

Paul also did not write I Timothy or II Timothy, since we're having fun.

1 Timothy 1:1-2

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,  2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.  (NKJV)

What ever people want to believe is up to the individual  person. Paul also called Saul with his other Jewish name. When Jesus Christ appeared to him, made a major change from a hateful Pharisee, to a peaceful and humble person. When Saul or Paul was a Pharisee, he was even involved in a religious murder of a Christian.

Regarding Paul, who wrote the most New Testament scriptures. At least Paul showed humility in comparing himself to the original apostles.

1 Corinthians 15:9-10

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.  (NKJV)
 

In addition, Paul was a friend of Luke, the medical physician, who perhaps wrote the second most amount of scriptures. 

2 Timothy 4:11
11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry.  (NKJV)
Colossians 4:14
14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.  (NKJV)
 

On 2/9/2024 at 11:46 PM, WordWolf said:

Silver was seen as a "pure" metal, and God was said to purify silver.    Here we also see soap mentioned as a purifying agent. If it's not clear how soap cleanses, I can't help

Since soap is used for physical cleaning. Soap could figuratively represent spiritual cleaning or purification through God and his Son Jesus Christ. The book of Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, looks prophetic for Jesus Christ.

The word "fire" from the New Testament was translated from the Greek word beginning with "pur" and "puros" as a part of speech. The first part of the definition of this Greek word from VINE'S EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY is the following:  

(a) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Hebrews 10:27; 12:29; cf. Revelation 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12; similarly of the holy angels as His ministers Hebrews 1:7 in Revelation 3:18 it is symbolic of that which tries the faith of saints, producing what will glorify the Lord:

(b) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ 1 Corinthians 3:13 and 15:
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Since "pur" begins with the same letters as "purgatory". This could be why the Roman Catholic Church came up with the word "purgatory".
 

1 hour ago, cman said:

So you are having pain when you urinate?

I think you're stuck in a twi doctrine loop. Snap out of it. Sheesh

At least 100% FALSENESS. 

cman simply wants to type the last message when ever he types on a Grease Spat Cafe forum. As an example of falseness. In the biblical teaching book that I wrote, as I was leaving TWI in the last years of the 1980s, I began the writing of the chapter, "Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". Then I handed to TWI people paper copies of this article. The main doctrine that I opposed was their hierarchy structure. In quoting from the current revised book chapter is the following:

"Today we have false doctrines such as the pope being the Vicar of Christ, or that by our minds renewed to God’s word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the Christian organization I used to associate with."

Revelation 21:4

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."   New King James Version

In the new heaven and new earth things will be MUCH BETTER than it is now with even no wars. There will be MUCH MORE PEACE than we have now, especially between nations. Especially when Jesus Christ returns to earth and has MUCH more earthly or worldly authority than He has now in this age or period of time with the devil and demons able to whisper into people's ears for deception. I figuratively call the demons and devil, spiritual pixss ants or gnats. Miss spelling because I was not able to spell the word for when we go to the bathroom and do what we often need to do to remove liquid from our physical bodies.   

16 minutes ago, sirguessalot said:

If I may ask...what are you thinking won't help us have no pain? Those Bible verses? or...?

In the new heaven and new earth. The bible says, we will have no pain.

Revelation 21:1-4

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."   New King James Version
 

I wonder if in the current age or period of time that we live now in the current earth. Will this help us have no pain?  I do not think this will help us have no pain.

It is OK and good to not be fearful of death with two future resurrections of the dead. The resurrection of the dead before the new heaven and new earth is quoted again from the New King James version with judgement. I consider this future judgment to be truthful.

Quote

Revelation 20:11-15

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. 
NKJV

6 hours ago, cman said:

I'm still not surprised about all the fear being promoted with the lake of fire deal. Like we are supposed to be afraid of the wrath of God. It's just sad.

Yes, any fear should NOT be from the phrase "lake of fire". Any fear should instead be from Revelation 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."  NKJV

The next verse can be viewed favorably with people who did not see Jesus Christ in a favorable way during their life being written in the "Book of Life". Using common godly spiritual sense and even my brain, these will be peaceful and helpful people who did not commit crimes, such as murder. Clearly, Revelation 20:11-15 involves the judgement of God and Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:15  "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."  NKJV

The next verse, John got a vision of a new heaven and a new earth.

 Revelation 21:1

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
NKJV
 

The phrase "no more sea", could be only purified water in the new heaven and new earth.

I attended and graduated from a Roman Catholic high school. The religious belief of so called "purgatory" is much better than the ERRANT belief that people do not really die. When people breathe their last breath, most of humanity goes to so called hell for eternal torment with only a few people, perhaps because they were part of their denomination, going to heaven with eternal life. That ERRANT belief has a mindset of the 1st century Pharisees and their religious beliefs. For information on the history of the religious belief of purgatory, I recommend going to this web site. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_purgatory

12 hours ago, cman said:

Lake? Fire! huh huh what the hell!

Only John, the author of the book of Revelation, uses the phrase "lake of fire". Combining a lake which has water used for putting out physical fires can show us that the phrase "lake of fire" is spiritual and not physical. Another example that "fire" used in the bible is often spiritual instead of physical, was the original receiving of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost historically from Acts chapter 2. 

Quote

Acts 2:1-4

2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
NKJV
 

The word fire from Acts 2:3 is from the exact same Greek word "puros" in the phrase "lake of fire". Again, that should clearly show followers of Jesus Christ, that the word "fire" often represents spiritual from our heavenly Father, God.  As long as we have brains and even want to use our brains.

As Wordwolf points out, there is no word "purgatory" in any version of the bible. If someone thinks there is, please quote from that bible version, the verse that has "purgatory". Using the actual bible, this involves the phrase "lake of fire" as listed using the New Kings James version in Revelation 19:20, 20:10, 20:14 and 20:15. The word for "fire", is from the Greek word "puros". This Greek word simply represents God and the holiness of God. Quoting from the New King James Version from Revelation 20:11-15:

Quote

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. 
NKJV

This involves the judgement of God and Jesus Christ God's Son at the second resurrection for people who did not believe in Jesus Christ. For people who will be judged favorably, they will be listed in the "Book of Life". The following chapter is Revelation 21 and the new heaven and new earth.

15 hours ago, cman said:

why do you keep bringing up the same accusations against me?

heaven and hell are the same thing, same fire

Regarding accusations, cman looks like the only accusations genius on this forum. For example, when he typed "I guess you boys are the beginning and end of all knowledge and wisdom. You know, there might be more than you think." It looks like he does not know or wants to ignore that there is more than he thinks also. If I had a question asked to me like I asked to cman. I would have answered it by even quoting from the bible the following verses.

Quote

Revelation 20:11-15

The Great White Throne Judgement

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.  (NKJV)

This judgement could be considered a supreme court. God and his Son Jesus Christ are the only geniuses for this type of judgement before the new heaven and new earth as read in Revelation chapters 21 and 22.

On 7/29/2023 at 5:31 AM, cman said:

the resurrection is an ongoing perpetual now never stopping, world without end

I wonder with regard to bad people who committed crimes such as murder with the thievery of money and other bad crimes with out being arrested and charged for their crimes. Right after their death, perhaps for 1 second, does cman think they are resurrected to go to heaven with eternal life? Or go to so called hell with eternal torment?  Or something else? 

5 hours ago, cman said:

claiming to be a follower of Christ yet denying the power of the resurrection 

If these followers of Christ, called Saints, were literally dead that were in graves, why did a number of Saints die in only a few years or the length of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ?? Since this miracle was only written by a follower of Christ, who previously was perhaps a tax collector (Matthew 9:9-11) while working with the Romans. I wonder did only tax collectors have enough faith to see the power of the resurrection????? Using sarcasm! 

8 hours ago, cman said:

The common belief was and is in many beliefs that upon Christ's ascension all the people that died would ascend with him. Leading captivity captive, as it is written. Daniel 12:2 as well as saying throughout the epistles that we were raised with him.

Not sure if this is the reason for this text but this is what I think of.

Does cman also think that people who persecuted followers of Christ, for example religious 1st century Pharisees are also in heaven now???  In addition, people who committed crimes of theft and murder so that they could make much money. Does cman think they are in heaven now or in hell with punishment?? Honestly, I do not think either one. Instead I believe, like many people here, that they are in the grave or dead, awaiting a future resurrection of judgment as read in Revelation 20:11-15.

9 hours ago, OldSkool said:

- confused and inaccurate Koine Greek definitions that give a false sense of whats actually written

- There's books that should be included in the Bible that aren't that are hidden amongst the garbage texts that WordWolf mentioned. Book of Jubilees, Jasher, and 1 Enoch come to mind. I cite them since they are all heavily quoted in scripture or cross referenced in scripture. Jude directly quotes the first chapter of The Book of Enoch verbatim and the phrase Son of Man used by Jesus Christ himself is from Enoch. Jubilees and Jasher are also cross referenced in the Old Testament...yet they are stashed amongst the so called Pseudepigrapha, or falsely attributed works.

- Altered concepts that do not mean what scripture actually teaches but are altered to suit someone's specific agenda and/or narrative.

With regard to the definitions of Koine Greek words for the New Testament. I use references to the actual definitions of Koine Greek words often in my biblical book. especially in two chapters named:

Chapter 6: Page 65
Age and the Greek Words That Begin with Aioon

Chapter 14: Page 171
The Mythology of Hell That Contradicts Scriptures       

The basics of this chapter is that the word hell should be translated "the grave or the place of the dead", instead of hell which involves torment with pain, especially eternally. This belief began with Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods.

Yes, other books should also be considered, if they are quoted from in the bible. Yes, bible text could be altered, especially if they contradict other scriptures. Regarding Matthew 27:52-53 "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."  (NKJV). This would obviously be a miracle. Why was this miracle only mentioned in two verses and not the other gospels and other New Testament scriptures? 

3 hours ago, cman said:

not very smart are you Mark

I was going to say that you are an idiot, but didn't

Thank you very much for helping me laugh.   With regard to the subject of Matthew 27:52-53. Instead of calling someone that this is the author of a biblical teaching book "not very smart" or "an idiot". I recommend that we address this subject, instead of criticizing a follower of Jesus Christ. Using my biblical study software program, here is a commentary on these two verses with legitimate copy right information at the end of this quote.

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[And the graves were opened] By the earthquake; and many bodies of saints which slept, i.e. were dead, sleep being a common expression for death in the Scriptures. 

Matthew 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[And came out of the graves after his resurrection] Not BEFORE, as some have thought, for Christ was himself the FIRST FRUITS of them who slept, 1 Corinthians 15:20. The graves were opened at his death, by the earthquake, and the bodies came out at his resurrection.
[And appeared unto many.] Thus establishing the truth of our Lord's resurrection in particular, and of the resurrection of the body in general, by many witnesses. Quesnel's reflections on these passages may be very useful:
1. The veil being rent shows that his death is to put an end to the figurative worship, and to establish the true religion.
2. The earthquake, that this dispensation of the Gospel is to make known through the earth the judgments of God against sin and sinners.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
 

25 minutes ago, cman said:

you have to die to find out

WOW, it reads like you are promoting death, perhaps even as a cheer leader for death.  Sorry, but I am not a cheer leader for death or the grave.

29 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Mark, what would happen if a proclaimed follower Jesus Christ did NOT do as you say they SHOULD do?

That shows that people that call themselves Christian perhaps do not really need Jesus Christ to have eternal life. Simply implying that Jesus Christ was NOT the first of humanity to be raised from the dead to live eternally, shows an errant and deceptive mindset. 

Here is a web site link which is a commentary regarding controversial scriptures from Matthew 27:52-53. Every follower of Jesus Christ should see and understand that Jesus Christ was the first human to be raised from the dead to live eternally.

https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Matthew/chapter27/53 

11 hours ago, cman said:

I guess you boys are the beginning and end of all knowledge and wisdom.

You know, there might be more than you think.

Thank you very much for calling old or older men, boys.   Regarding learning from other people. Should we learn from people who believe that the word "hell", as sometimes read in the bible, is eternal torment for most of humanity after we breath our last physical breath? Perhaps only if we view biblical words like this.  I am sorry for typing my views to you, but I do not think "hell" is eternal torment. I instead think the word "hell" represents the grave or the place of the dead. 

Yes, I learn from other people. For example, the Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary with regard to subjects of the bible. I also have learned the definitions of the Greek words that the New Testament was originally written from, from the Thayer's Greek Lexicon and the Vine's Expository Dictionary. I also learn on other subjects by watching YouTube videos. For example, I primarily learned how to use the Adobe InDesign software program to layout my biblical teaching book and get it ready for printing by watching YouTube videos with one specific video that covered book layout with the most detail.

I wonder if we had an earthquake or a firestorm, would we believe we had a new heaven and a new earth? Especially a new earth. Perhaps only if we wanted to do this to our physical heads. 

I wonder should we adapt this perspective of knowing when humanity will have a new heaven and a new earth? 

Honestly, I do not think we now have a new heaven and a new earth and I do NOT know when humanity will have a new heaven and a new earth. Is it OK to think this way or should I apologize for my perspective and thoughts?  Have a good day and night.