Mark Sanguinetti

Mike:

I have read posts on Grease Spot Cafe for many months now. I have helped a number of people here. Grease Spot Cafe is an internet community. It is a team. When I am able to help an individual I do so. However, every believer has their gift of service to the body of Christ. When I see an opportunity to help I do so. Others are able ministers also. Even people who don't call themselves Christians can be very helpful.

Mike:

Your last post is to long for me to read. I have told you politely that you should shorten them. My beliefs, unlike yours, are not set in concrete. I learn new things from the bible almost every day. When I learn new things that contradict what I have previously believed I change what I teach.

You are very fortunate that I shared my paper on the Lordship of Jesus Christ with you. Although, I worked a number of years on that one I am always open to reasonable feed back. I also wrote it with the intent that people can learn the knowledge that I have to offer in it with as little time and effort as possible. If you want me to read your posts you will have to shorten them just like everyone else. It is nothing personal. I am just to busy. However, thank you for at least addressing what you had to say to me at the beginning of your last post.

[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:57.]

Mike:

PFAL was a class. It should have been periodically reviewed. If errors were found of any kind, especially doctrinally, it should have been redone one segment at a time. TWI had the resources to do this. The reason why this was not done is that Victor Wierwille was not meek enough. The most important thing to him was maintaining his aura of teaching perfection. He was the pope of TWI. What he spoke doctrinally as president of TWI was some how perfect just like the pope in the Roman Catholic Church speaking to Roman Catholics. Later Victor passed on his religious title and prestige to the most loyal yes man that he had, Craig Martindale.

Victor, in spite of his ego, at least seemed to have some respect for the scriptures. When it comes right down to it you seem to have very little respect for the scriptures. Personally, I don't think you are a threat at all on Grease Spot Cafe. I think you are living proof that the religion of TWI and PFAL, taken to an extreme and out of the context of a class that needed to be improved and periodically revised, did not and does not work. Furthermore, everyone on Grease Spot Cafe seems to know this. Even the Victor Wierwille apologists, some of whom have posted for a number of months here know this. Everyone seems to know this except you Mike. Are you trying to con us or are you really that dense?

[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:33.]

[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:56.]

Hi Mike:

If nothing else your posts and evaluation of Victor Wierwille are entertaining. I can't help, but laugh when I read them or think about them. Thank you for the entertainment.

Now I better get back to work. My office is a mess and it needs tending to. Thanks again for the entertainment.

Sincerely,

Mark

Acts 19:21

21 When these things were accomplished, Paul purposed in the Spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."

NKJV

Strong's # 4151 - Spirit

5. universally, the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of anyone; the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, see 2 Cor 12:18

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)

The word spirit in the bible has a diversity of usages. One of these usages from Thayer's Lexicon is clearly stated above. Notice in the context of Acts 19:21 that it does not say purposed in the holy spirit which would have definitely meant that this was a message from God. Instead it says the less definite purposed in the spirit. From the context and usage it sounds like Paul determined himself to go to Jerusalem and that this was not guidance from God.

Here is another biblical version.

Acts 19:21

21 After these things had happened, Paul made up his mind to travel through Macedonia and Achaia and go on to Jerusalem. "After I go there," he said, "I must also see Rome."

TEV

Hi Mike:

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go to the Grease Spot Cafe forum thread with link posted below. It discusses some of the errors in PFAL, the bible class that you think is God-Breathed. Incidentally, I don't ever recall Victor Wierwille making that claim. Even he did not exalt his biblical writings above the scriptures.

http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=2726097291

The Snow Storm Theology

Hi Mike:

You are right about at least one thing in this discussion. I do have a lot of confidence in my ability to read and understand the scriptures. You see Mike, I believe that this ability of comprehension is a gift from God through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit which he gave. I also have confidence in other people's ability to understand God's word through the holy spirit. You on the other hand seem to have great faith in a 1942 snow storm which history seems to show never actually happened. The scriptures back my faith. The same scriptures are oppossed to yours.

You know Mike when it comes right down to it your religion is not much different that the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Muslums. All of these religions were started by the experiential signs of their founders. You have showed your true colors and honestly your conclusion does not surprise me.

Matt 16:1-4

16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

2 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

NIV

Jonah, who was in the belly of a whale and presumed to be dead, typifies Jesus Christ's death and then resurrection.

Mike, I think I need to repeat what I said in my previous post. Perhaps, you did not catch this the first time.

"Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit. You know you could have come to that conclusion without having to consult the PFAL book. Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles."

Mike, I was clearly comparing Victor's writings in PFAL with Paul's writings in the seven church epistles. Victor's writings in PFAL are for the most part copied from other Christian teachers. Paul's writings on the other hand have a great deal of original thought and original spiritual wisdom and understanding. There is a huge difference between the writings of the two. It is like comparing the writings and explanation of someone who invented the silicon chip with the writings of someone who later found his writings and learned a small amount of what the original inventor developed and learned.

Mike, PFAL was a class. Nothing more and nothing less. It was not original God breathed scripture. Jesus gave gifts unto men. There are a number of teachers in the body of Christ. You are making a serious mistake in your biblical studies by limiting yourself to the works of one man, namely Victor Wierwille.

Hi MJ412:

Yea, we are all learning. However, if you ever want to edit one of yours posts after you are logged in, you can click the pencil eraser at the bottom of one of your posts. Then your post will show up again. You can edit it and then click the Post Now button again. Pretty cool really. Don't be afraid to experiment with it. And by all means if you have a problem be sure to ask Garth. I think he might do web sites for a living. You can ask me also and I will try to figure it out.

Happy posting.

Hi MJ412:

Apparently, you are quoting Mike from a letter written to you. You should clarify this in your post. You can edit your post and click the "..." icon. Thanks.

Well Mike. Is that true? Did you tell MJ12 that "only those who master PFAL will have eternal life?"

And really Mike, for argument's sake let's say that Victor Wierwille was a good bible teacher. Don't you think there are other good bible teachers that we can also learn from? Also in all the times you were in TWI didn't you notice that Victor Wierwille did not have a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, the languages of the biblical texts? Then if he did not have a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew then why should we need his written works for textual clarifications?

One of the reasons that Paul wrote as many epistles as he did is because he was well educated. He could read and write. Yes, he also had a great heart and love for the Lord Jesus Christ, but he was also heads above the other apostles as far as education. Victor Wierwille was not very well educated regarding the biblical languages. However, he may have been a good preacher. This is possible, but he was not educated enough to make Greek textual clarifications. E.W. Bullinger on the other hand was. He even had a Greek lexicon. Through E.W. Bullinger and others Wierwille got all his best biblical material. This has been documented a number of times. Additionally, Paul said that he got his writings by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Do you see the difference?

Hi Mike:

Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit. You know you could have come to that conclusion without having to consult the PFAL book. Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles.

Mike, in past years I studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously. You should see my bible. There are a few sections of scripture in my old bible that are filled with notes like you probably have never seen before. In studying and writing these notes I found that much of the technical biblical work of VP Wierwille actually came from E.W. Bullinger.

Today, however, I try to be more well rounded in my outside study sources. I try to learn from a number of teachers rather than just a few. I think that this is biblically safer and brings me a more well rounded biblical knowledge. However, there is something to be said for Victor Wierwille's suggestion from the PFAL class that we get rid of our outside biblical reading material at times and just go to the scriptures and let them speak for themselves. Of course, if we were to really follow this we would have to include Victor Wierwille's works in this as well. Maybe you should literally follow what VPW said and put away your PFAL books for a while and just study the bible. You know he also said this in the class regarding commentaries and VPW's material would have to be considered a form of commentary as well.

You know I have done some study already in dissecting VPW's material as to what is truth and what is error. However, over the last number of years I have mainly done my own independent studies. You see I am somewhat of a Christian writer also and I have endeavered to do some godly writing that is inspired by the holy spirit as well. However, if you want the opinion of someone that has spent a lot of time working the PFAL material to determine some of what is true and not true you should get Rafael's opinion. Also a Christian man by the name of Barrax (I think that is how his name is spelled) has also done a great deal of study of the PFAL class material.

O.K. Mike. I think we all understand. You love the teachings of Victor Wierwille. However, are there any teachings of his that you find unscriptural?

I think you are right Sudo. First and foremost Victor Wierwille was a salesman. And thanks for the music. You know I still have on my computer desk top the music from the USC band that you provided.

1 Cor 1:11-13

11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

NIV

1 Cor 3:4-9

4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

NIV

It is clear from Mike's posts that he is saying we should primarily follow Victor Wierwille, specifically his teachings. The main thing I dislike about TWI doctrine is their sectarian gospel. When we follow men, or dead men as the case may be, or a particular denomination above the ministry of Jesus Christ we are walking in strife and spiritual blindness. In spite of Wierwillian reasoning Jesus Christ really does have a ministry today. He really does direct the church. Jesus does this through the holy spirit which he gave. The point I am making is that why would we ever want to exalt anyone's ministry above that of Jesus Christ's. The way that I read Mike's written work here this is primarily what he is doing in exalting the ministry of Victor Wierwille.

Well that is O.K. Mike. Craig Martindale did not mention Jesus Christ in his Athletes of the Spirit production either. After all who needs Jesus when you are Rainbow man?

You know I like you guys, but I disagree with your last point. I have not read all of Mike's posts. No offense Mike, but they are very long and there is just not enough time in the day. However, Mike to me is clearly talking about the importance of Christian doctrine and he is singing the praises of Victor Wierwille. He is not talking about sporting events or a new business venture here. What is the point in Christian doctrine if Jesus Christ is not exalted? Do we pray in the name of Jesus or not? When one of us has a problem whose name do we invoke for help?

Hi Mike:

Rafael, myself and others have made good points here that you can not possibly all address. You have purposely and deliberately placed blinders over your eyes regarding your devotion to Victor Wierwille. Many of us have checked Wierwille's teachings and have founded them to have a number of errors. Even more of us have seen the grave practical errors in his personal life and realize that this was influential in the corruption of the Christian doctrine that he taught.

In contrast you plainly want us to believe that he wrote and spoke Christian doctrine perfectly. Honestly, your devotion is so extreme, with the vast evidence to the contrary, that you (Mike) make Victor Wierwille look like a crack pot. I really don't want to see that happen, but if you feel you must, post on.

About a week ago I watched on educational TV a historical documentary on the Muslum religion. In the segment that I watched many of the historians that they interviewed or the historic people that they quoted from would constantly quote Mohammed as being God's prophet. In fact, they could scarcely invoke the name of God, who they refered to as Allah, without tacking on and invoking Mohammed as his prophet. Your devotion to Wierwille reminds me of them Mike. And to think you have a saviour that died for you and you rarely even mention his name.

[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on December 29, 2002 at 21:45.]

Hey Sirguessalot:

You should have heard the out loud laugh you just got out of me. Please pass the popcorn.

Mike:

One request please. If you care to comment further on this subject would you please condense and shorten your posts a bit. I think you can say the same thing with a lot less words. I read your first couple of posts in their entirety, but if you have any more long ones I may not have time to read them all. I am a busy guy. Thanks

Hi Mike:

Thanks for posting your material. I have never seen such a text book example of preaching one thing, yet actually doing the complete opposite of that which is taught. I never read or heard Victor Wierwille's last teaching until now. However, I am very familiar with some of the scriptures that were quoted. It was pretty obvious even back then that true Christian service was lacking in TWI. You only needed to see the people parading around with their name tags, Way Corps, College Division, Reverend ,etc, at TWI functions to see that the Way Ministry had lost sight of what it is to not be a respector of persons. Instead religious title and prestige was held in high esteem with TWI. What is really amazing about Victor’s last teaching specifically is the scriptures quoted Mark 10:35-45. The companion scriptures are Matthew 20:20-28 and Luke 22:20-30. Certainly these are wonderful scriptures describing and teaching about true service. However, is this what the Way denomination actually applied in their ministry?

Looking at the scriptures beginning in verse 37 we can clearly see the potential for a power struggle between the 12 disciples, specifically from James and John the sons of Zebedee. This clearly angered the other 10 in verse 40 and Jesus put out the flames of this potential for religious in fighting by saying the following in Mark 10:42-45.

42"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.

45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

NIV

Jesus clearly says that they were not to have a system of lords over God’s heritage like the Gentiles with one class above another and a hierarchy of religious power. In contrast, they were to serve one another in love. Nice words for Victor to quote, but did he actually do anything to stop the up coming power struggle within his own denomination which clearly was on the horizon? Actually, Victor Wierwille instead clearly faned the flames of this strife. He did this by first and foremost setting up a religious hierarchy of lords over God’s heritage just like Jesus warned against and said not to do. He set up a virtual smorgasborg of minions one over another. He had twig coordinators over leaves. Then he had branch leaders over twig coordinators. In some areas he had area and territory leaders over the branch leaders. Then he had limb leaders over the branch, area and territory leaders. Then he had region leaders over the limb leaders. Finally he had a trunk leader over the region and limb leaders with all the above leaders subordinate to him and his board of trustees. As time passed this religous hierarchy got more controlling with every passing year. Finally, when it was time to pass on the figurative mantle of TWI leadership he passed it on to someone that used his religious authority to persecute God’s people and squelch the spirit of God and the individual ministries of others.

Clearly, Victor Wierwille may have talked a good game, but by his actions he figuratively threw charcoal and poured lighter fluid on the flames of discord, indignation, strife and power hoarding within his own denomination. He more than any man is responsible for the sorry state that his denomination is in now.

Was it Christian Family and Sex? It is well know that Victor was not a good example of purity in a marriage relationship.

Romans 12:14-21

14 Ask God to bless those who persecute you--yes, ask him to bless, not to curse. 15 Be happy with those who are happy, weep with those who weep. 16 Have the same concern for everyone. Do not be proud, but accept humble duties. Do not think of yourselves as wise.

17 If someone has done you wrong, do not repay him with a wrong. Try to do what everyone considers to be good. 18 Do everything possible on your part to live in peace with everybody. 19 Never take revenge, my friends, but instead let God's anger do it. For the scripture says, "I will take revenge, I will pay back, says the Lord." 20 Instead, as the scripture says: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for by doing this you will make him burn with shame." 21 Do not let evil defeat you; instead, conquer evil with good.

TEV

God bless you WayGB. I hope you get healed. May you realize what true service is. It is not self promotion. It is not vaunting yourselves above your brothers and sisters in Christ. My prayer in the name of Jesus Christ is that you will learn what real service to God's people is this coming year.

Sounds like the TWI leadership that I knew. The top leaders screw as many women as possible, while preaching abstinance to the rank and file Joe and Mary Believer. I just love hypocrisy. I hope you can be both best friends and lovers with your next woman. Monogamos relationships are good. The next time you have one you will know the sex is between you and her and to keep third parties and their opinions out of it. You learned a valuable lesson. Never listen to a religious hierarchy. Instead try to grow and be strong in your relationship with your woman and with God.

I put my name and E-mail address on their site a couple of years ago. It was no big deal. I did not get any weird responses from anyone. Actually, only a few people contacted me from it.

Happy Birthday my friend. I hope you are doing well.