Vertical Limit

We need to ask questions. Question all of it. But dmiller you sound like you may have the answers to your questions. If so, speak on. "Define those two statements, and you wouldn't be needing to ask the question!" Is that the answer to the subject of this thread? Do you have the definitions or is this an honest question. God's thoughts are a heart beat away, a breath away. The mind of Christ....it's there...closer than we think. The house of the Lord - where is it? To make our thoughts his thoughts and his ways our ways was done by Jesus Christ. Bind the strong MAN in order to follow the Spirit. God is Spirit....yup. Never separated from man as we were taught. But a veil between us, ripped from top to bottom by Jesus Christ. The holy of holies door is open. Threading the needle....the eye of the needle...you must make yourself small to enter. So then God's thoughts are his and not ours, His ways are his and not ours. Should be a good ego killer right! John 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. John 5:30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Does that help?

Let's say you were standing next to some one that you want to be close to. What would it take to do that?

illusion, perception, A matter of how we see things. A reality none the less. For in it lies our belief and faith.

WWCIYHYD I agree. Jesus would have been just another Jew on the block without the Christ. And wwjesuslaughat. I think he laughed at things. Nice handle.

I promised myself to take a break from greasespot for a while but this thread got me interested. I understandand where you are coming from polar bear. I like to think of it as what did Jesus say, as well as what would he do. John 14:25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. "and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." If what Jesus said and did, did not apply today then why would he say this? I think what he said and did does apply today, but not all at once-that would be a lot to handle. Whatsoever Jesus said does apply today and the Holy Spirit will bring it to our remembrance, as we continue our journey and walk with the Spirit. Ok- back to taking a break from greasespot...love to all!

Blind obedience is not what God wants. As things come together in your mind you will know what to do and what not to do. Yet, still it helps to have help from others. We have seen the false prophets and apostles first hand and know what to avoid.

"And perhaps that is exactly what the tree is. The choosing of what one wanted instead of what one was ordered to do. "you may not eat", "but I want to eat". Previously, they followed orders, then they made a choice. The act of choosing something instead of blindly following could be seen as an evolutionary step forward. Satan, likewise, does not have to be literal, but simply the thought processes that occured in the decision making" Good points Abigail, but I don't think they were blindly following what God said. The choice they made had a devasting effect on man. Fixed by the second Adam. An interesting side note is this... Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Live for ever.... The way of the tree of life is there for those looking for it.

"It was sort of an evolutionary step forward which made humans able to think on levels far above what your typical animal can do (beyond basic instinct, etc.) But man had to make the free will choice to take this step forward with full understanding of the benefits and consequences." Abigail- I have to respectfully disagree with you on this because adam did name all the animals before his disobedience. So I think they were thinking far above the animals already. Cuz after all "satan" didn't try to deceive the animals.... But I do understand that you are taking this from judaism too. The problem is not in knowing good but in knowing evil. They already knew good but perhaps didn't recognize it as such, not having a knowledge of evil. They were in a sense, spoiled :D-->.

I will say a little more, not to .... anyone off or draw attention to myself, but to consider the scriptures. The day of Pentecost is the first time recorded specificly that anyone spoke in toungues as promised from Mark. "they shall speak with new tougues" On that day of pentecost many understood what these 12 were saying (possibly interpretation of tounges) while others thought they were drunk. But consider Jesus when he said my sheep hear my voice and follow me and when he said why do you not understand my speech. John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Of course he also said to those that couldn't understand his speech that they were of their father the devil. But I don't think that's true in every case. The parables had many scratching their heads and wondering what the heck he was talking about. At one point many quit following Jesus because of what he was saying. So possibly Jesus was speaking in toungues and the 12 and more eventually began to understand what he was talking about even before Pentecost. Does that stir the pot of dispensational thinking? Or is it off onto another subject.

Or should I say man is now ready to deal with God as Adam could. hmmm, both are true I think...

Nice summation and post Raf. Here's another summation... Romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. God is now ready to "deal" with man as he did with Adam.

Sirg... Send me an email-the one I have will not work And thanks

Even Jesus received John's baptism. Luke 3:21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Acts 1:5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Immersed into what they already had-Holy Spirit.

Also consider what it means to be baptized. Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Immersed into Jesus Christ, his name, who he is, what the scriptures say of him. I'd say the 12 and more were immersed into what Jesus was teaching and showing them. John's baptism-immersed into repentence-by water washing away sin.

Let's look at it for a second. Consider the 12. For them the new testament began for them when Jesus said it did and before that even when that spirit began to build in their hearts. There are a few times where Jesus told Peter that he was receiving info from God. It's the same for every one, it starts when they start being born again. Like I said earlier, if you think of it on a more personal level, things make more sense.

"Did Jesus die for all or just for those after his death?" Jesus DID die for all, but the complete outworking of his sacrifice will not be manifest in time until he executes the judgment. The salvation we have received will not be complete before the resurrection/gathering together. Even John says so, quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world ["kosmos"] knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. I John 3:1-3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "but the complete outworking of his sacrifice will not be manifest in time until he executes the judgment." Yes there are different beliefs concerning this "time". After you are born again does time really matter? It's all been done. Passed from death to Life. Everlasting Life.

Here's a little more on forgiveness then receiving the Holy Spirit. Matthew 3:1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Repent to prepare the way of the Lord. Where? In the mind. Repent and receive that remission of sins and then receive the Holy Spirit. John came to prepare the way for the Lord. So that being born again could happen.

"I take it from what you wrote there that you would also disagree with Wierwille's statements to the effect that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church, and that the "new birth" was not available till the the Day of Pentecost. Can I take it that you would also disagree with Wierwille when he taught that Pentecost was the beginning of some previously secret "administration of grace"?" Correct.... posting from work....I better do some more of it.... I certainly do believe in Grace though...agreed?

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins-there is the forgiveness-then ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the 12 were born again before Pentecost, they had already received the gift of Holy Spirit-new testament style-perhaps when Jesus breathed in and said receive the holy Spirit. John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost Forgiveness of sin is a complete remission of sins as was John's baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit is part of the new testament promise also. So that we can live without remembering sin that has held us back from walking after the Spirit. So what happened on Pentecost came from within those 12 men, from the Spirit that was already there. The greatest outpouring of Spirit since Moses received the law next to Paul of whom God brought to pass special miracles by his hands, Pauls hands, from within Paul. Next to Noah who receved detailed plans for the ark. Now it's off to work again for me, day shift today.

What does it say about us when Jesus died and was ressurected (sp)? Didn't we die with him? weren't we raised with him? It's a done deal. All that's left is our journey through it. What happened on Pentecost is like Joel said, like you said. An out pouring of the Spirit big time from people like you and me. Those 12 didn't just stumble into it. Jesus led them by the hand untill they were ready.

I thought those verses spelled it out pretty good. But maybe not. I gotta go to work here shortly, so I may not answer soon. I'll answer when I know how to, and have the time to do it. We aren't in any hurry are we? Peace!

Here's some questions for you Steve... What is Time to God? Wouldn't the bride of Christ be spotless? Did Jesus die for all or just for those after his death?

Oh and BTW the spelling error is because that's how it's spelled in my bible on the computer. I copied and pasted it in the post. In my comment on it too.

let me add this If you sin wilfully and do not do as 1 John says to do then you are walking in darkness. And you can't just keep sinning the same sins and just keep doing 1 John from the heart. The heart will become hardened against God and what he says. I also think of Romans 7 and 8. But not the way TWI used it.

I didn't put wierwielle's spin on it. I agree with this- A special forgiveness of sins was part of the promised New Testament, quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "...I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more..." Jeremiah 31:34b "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all you idols I will cleanse you." Ezekiel 36:25 "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not agree with this- The forgiveness part of the New Testament became available AFTER the cricifixion, and was embodied in baptism with holy spirit, first available on the Day of Pentecost. This part-"embodied in baptism with holy spirit" The old testament people also benefited from Jesus' death.