Vertical Limit

I haven't been following this thread much. I just read the first page when it started. But I'll put in my 2 cents worth. I think Mrs. Wierwille might have seen a lot of the bad about her husband and twi. She just never said anything about it, for one reason or another, and it hurt her. Much like Mary the mother of Jesus, except what Mary should have done was speak the truth. Don't hold it inside! Speak up with wisdom. Luke 2:51b but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. Jesus gave the charge to his disciples to take care of his mother. And I'll bet they did too! JPW is speaking up!! Thank God!! It's time to speak up without fear! Ask Questions for God's sake! Demand Answers! Don't Hold Back! There is wrong upon wrong happening at TWI still. People are still being hurt and not speaking up because of the fear that TWI teaches and has taught for decades. Even after we got away from it, it still lingers like a nightmare. Give 'em Hell JPW!

Trefor- One thing I don't agree with you on is that Jesus or David and Jonathan might have been gay. They were not. The rest of your opinions I do not want to give my opinion on concerning this subject.

Nope no heated fight from me. I said what I thought. I'm probably done with this subject.

Good points JerryB-I agree. And a good way to communicate your opinion. Johniam-it just seems like you want to drum up a very heated fight over this particular subject. It's not necessary. I'll bet trefor knows the verses that you mentioned. Hell we all know 'em.

Sheesh - johniam. Trefor will be gay as long as he wants to be gay or forever if he wants to. He is gay wether you like it or not. I haven't seen him trying a campaign to convert anyone here. Unless i missed it. He's offering his opinion like everyone else from his point of view. I just don't see any good coming from beating someone up with the bible. You cetainly are not changing his mind! You don't beleive from the bible being gay is right - well ok we got it.

aaahh excathedra I was just lighting up the blow torch too! :D--> I like you rare though as in one of a kind. good post

Well said Dot. Even before the edit.

Heck just say it WhiteDove, Was it the blackdove thing? Or what?

And right there it is. Again. Wierwille was a liar to put it lightly.

Yeah...or a christian family

Something about someone who says one thing and does another can make anyone sick. "a parable in the mouth of a fool" Something like that. The words in this class were worthless because of the one speaking them. Maybe if someone else with integrity and honour had spoken them they would be worth remembering.

I don't like sounding too religous but--- Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all Isaiah 53:10a Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him It's not our fault at all! Doing stuff out of guilt isn't what God wants I think.

Yeah! That 2 Peter 1:20 thing certainly worked to Wierwielle's advantage. And thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Not trying to close it (like that works) but just because I don't comment on the comments doesn't mean I don't like 'em. You all knew that anyway.

galen- Even after I left twi i thought pfal was right but then some things started to be very clear. I don't mean to attack you. My apologies if it came across like that. sirguessalot- Were we among those who spazzed out? Maybe to some degree huh.

There are some parts of pfal that aren't too bad but as a whole I reject it's teachings and it's message. And I reject it's teacher. A loveless bastard who only promoted himself and his selfish greeds. You like pfal. OK I do not. The only way anything good happened in twi was because of other people who truly loved God or at least actually cared about the well being of others. [This message was edited by Vertical Limit on July 30, 2003 at 2:06.]

At least with amway you knew what you were getting. The goals of pfal were never attainable if you used it's system of thinking. Always a class or program away. The elusive "walk with God" only got further away. Funny - life is a whole lot simpler with out all that stuff to remember.

We were told and told the new students that each session of pfal builds on the previous one. Yep-you got that right. Thats why if a session was missed you had to retake the entire class from the beginning. Other wise your thinking would not be where it's supposed to be. There are patterns in the class that got us to logically conclude that Wierwille was the man of god of the world and a bunch of other garbage. Just because it makes sense or logical that don't mean it's right.

hey ex! Yeah... hooked for some reason. Finding the reasons slowly.

The blue book seems to put all the responsibility for God doing anything onto the person. The first 5 chapters anyway. One thing that helped me was seeing how some of the other high control groups or cults operated. Patterns of how to control people began to be evident. Pfal promoted a lot of the thinking that kept us following Wierwielle and then Martindale. Originally we left the way mostly because we saw that they were teaching that if you don't give 10% of your money to the way then God won't protect you. And if you didn't give more you wouldn't have any spiritual understanding. I don't know...It finally dawned on me that that was bullsh!t.

When we first quit twi, I thought the problem was local leadership. Then I found waydale and a few other websites. Learning of all the adultery and the "all the women of the kingdom belong to the king" statement was the first clue for me. Yeah-I read all the threads about errors in the class and the books. The pfal review can still be found at; http://ourworld.cs.com/PFALREVIEW/

What are some of the things you have seen or learned that helped you to see that pfal isn't or wasn't all it claimed to be? I see it as a self-centered type of doctrine where God is set aside in favor of how great men are when they "operate the principles".

while LarryP2 continues in soap definition of soap opera; Umbrella storylines and long arc storylines. Storylines woven in and around various characters, lives intersecting and colliding in a dizzying display of story and purpose – This is the definition of soap opera and what keeps us tuning in for more. Rafael is on Bats! For one thing the definition of BATs is wide open to interpretation, making it highly probable that national and local authorities in the member countries will draw different conclusions. The very fact of BATs being in the plural shows the possibilities, and suggests that this was intentional. copied from; http://www.acidrain.org/AN2-98.htm

Plotinus-Good Point Adding emotions to people in the bible is no problem for me, and shouldn't be for anyone, as long as it does not change what the scripture clearly says. I guess I should add - reasonable emotions. Having emotions is not a sin :)--> [This message was edited by Vertical Limit on January 26, 2003 at 11:39.]

That formula in my previous post also gave leadership the right to dictate and analyze our thoughts. The results of pfal are wrong pfal is wrong

Adding up all the errors taught and looking at the structure of pfal begins to reveal how exactly wierwille pulled it off. The results of pfal; 1. Wierwille is the man of God of the World 2. pfal has defined who God is 3. pfal has defined how God communicates to men 4. pfal has defined what fellowship with God is 5. pfal has defined the structure of the bible 6. pfal has defined the structure of the church today (in favor of wierwille and twi) Methods used---MATH Formulas A=B=C=D=E=F = RESULT wrong thinking or believing as defined by pfal equals out of alignment and harmony equals out of fellowship equals sin equals You are against God and any term used in the bible that describes someone who is against God can be used against you to get you back to what wierwille and pfal has defined as right believing and thinking. How pfal came up with what is right believing can be found with some of the same Math. I suspect Bullingers influence had a lot to do with it. And that Wierwille may have even thought he was right. But just looking at the results should be a giant red flag! If a scripture did not fit into Wierwilles formulas then it was twisted or changed or "held in abeyance". Same with the holy spirit field. pfal is the root and base of wrong application and interpretation of scripture. By the end of the class Wierwille had us by the nuts (sorry ladies). pfal is in error [This message was edited by Vertical Limit on January 24, 2003 at 23:09.]