Vertical Limit

Hebrews 9:8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Chapter 10 1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)--> 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Here we see (along with a lot of other good info) it talks about being not conscience of sin. Which can happen as long as we do not sin. But if we sin then there is a "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" that's being conscience of sin.

Steve L.- "On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available" Forgiveness of sin has always been available. Luke 5:24a But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, Even further back then that. Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. -- Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. 30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. When his blood was shed is when remission of sins came to pass, if you want to pick a time.

Yes, search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, they are they which testify of Jesus Christ. It is God that gives the understanding, not word study books. Not that there is anything wrong with knowing word studies and scripture. Being strong in it is good, but a stronger than that will come and spoil the goods, therefore be ready to understand the understanding that only the Lord can give. 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. And walk in Love, if there is no love there is no true God. Did not the scribes and pharisees know the scriptures? Yet they were far from understanding and knowing God and his Son.

TheEvan I've never said there was a grace administration. What do you want me to present as convincing and believable.

Knock, Knock, Knock!!!! Hello!? This is what we are to be good stewards of! Hebrews8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. "for all shall know me from the least to the greatest" 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jeremiah31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Doctrinal debates are somewhat profitable, but it is God who opens the eyes of understanding. How did Peter know that Jesus Had the Word of Life? What did John mean when he said that God has given us an understanding? Hebrews8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. "for all shall know me from the least to the greatest" 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jeremiah31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. There's a little bible for ya concerning the new testament.

"To apply the vulgar meaning of the acromyn "BFD" to our fellow posters and their views is pointless, demeaning and inflammatory, and does NOT advance the cause of open discourse or the truth." Ok Steve L, just poken a little fun, no ill intent meant.

The only one I remember BFD addressing is when the new testament began. He may have addressed others but I don't remember. I get lost and uninterested in extremely long posts. Hey! BFD, sorry no offense ;)--> Ya want to talk or preach. Several posters are trying to converse with you. Are you willing to talk?

I don't think I'm coddling him. Or that anyone is too hard on him. But it could get that way quick. Then it's just another big fight instead of a discussion.

Before you go jumping down Biblefandave's throat too badly, remember where we once were. In the same boat you know?! I see where he is thinking and considering what has been said.

Hebrews sheds a lot of light on the new testament as well as the gospels. I think what we once thought what Jesus was saying was prophetic or talking about future events was actually happening then when he spoke them. Of course there are some places where he was talking about future events. But like I said before if you think of things on a more personal level they make more sense. I also think that it is a progresive thing, being born again and the new testament. I believe the 12 if not more where already being born again before the day of pentecost. Beliefs differ on subjects but that is ok. Brothers in Christ can disagree and still be brothers. This likemindedness that twi promoted was not true, where everyone has to believe and think the same way. Paul was likeminded with a few people but not all. One accord does not mean likeminded. One accord is more in line with having the same purpose which does not require thinking the same way about everything.

I think if I had to pick a start time for the new testament (which I don't have to) I'd pick the place where Jesus said this cup is the new testament that is in my blood, or even Jesus' birth or maybe his death where his blood was shed.

If you think of the word stewardship on a more personal level it makes a lot more sense. Wierwille took the word dispensation (which is really stewardship) and changed it to administration and used it to divide the bible into time periods. The only time periods I see are the old and new testament. Even Jesus talked about being a good steward over what God has given us personaly. GeorgeStGeorge, I don't understand what you mean by "the application of that belief was different for Adam, the patriarchs, Israel, and the Christian church." Christ united both the old and new testament people. Eliminating everything that stood in the way of that oneness. Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (for each one of us-(added by me)) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: And if you think about the bride and body. A marriage unites the two into one. And we as the body are to be one with Christ.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. I'd say the grace "administration" (if you want to call it that) started when Jesus the Christ was here in the flesh! I also believe that the old testament people have reaped the benefits of this grace as well as those during Jesus' time on earth. The day of pentecost has no bearing on a time period end or begining as far as I can tell. They were filled with the holy spirit. The new testament is in the blood of Jesus. You can be saved and not be filled (overflowing with or speaking by the holy spirit) with the holy spirit, it comes and goes as the wind. A persons body would be hard pressed to maintain this state of constantly being filled with holy spirit. But that doesn't mean that they are not saved and still have that spirit. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Numerous examples of Jesus' followers doing great works by the spirit and knowing things by the spirit revealing it, while Jesus was with them. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. I'd say the new testament was happening here.

I think the two are linked. The Word and the Spirit. As the Word is sown in the heart so the Spirit begins to grow until birth. When and how long it takes for each person is a question mark. Sink the plow deep in the mind to uproot the stones and thorns so that the Word can be received in good ground and bring forth fruit. The Word is Spirit and power. The words of the Word are spiritual. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

what's incorruptible is that Word of God sown in the hearts of men, even David, who forsook the Word in the Uriah incident and asked that holy spirit be not taken from him. But now we are talking about when Jesus was here on earth bringing everlasting life with him. I wouldn't say "the Word is the Incorruptible Seed, (rather than the new birth)". But hand in hand that Word will spring forth and birth will happen in time. Unless like in Luke the devil steals it or the cares of this world or thorns choke it to death and stuff like that.

TheEvan... "Is it running off topic to say that Wierwille's born again=baptized in the Holy spirit=filled with the Holy spirit=baptized in the name of Jesus Christ doesn't wash and is shot though with contradictions?" Perhaps the equals part doesn't work. I think it doesn't all have to happen at the same time. After the 70 returned and said Lord even the devils are subject to us. Jesus said rejoice rather that your names are written in the book of life. Sounds permanent to me.

"being born again" Is certainly an accurate phrase. If the Word is the seed then it must act like seed and take time to grow. Jesus gave them the Word as it says in John and they kept it and it grew as God gave the increase. Laying aside twi's administration teaching for a moment puts a different light on what Jesus was doing. And what was happening in his disciples.

It doesn't phase me one bit when people say this has been "added to the text". This does not mean it's not written by men moved by the holy spirit. If you think about it all scripture was added to the text. Moses, Solomon, David, and others all wrote things, now known as scripture. Many things written here at greasespot are written by men and women as they are moved by the holy spirit. In the name of these biblical keys, many scriptures were ignored or written off as a forgery. Time to reevaluate some I believe.

well said, ex

Geek... I am a bit surprised that you would write off what Jesus said, if that is what you are doing. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Now legally, I know that we are not held to that rule for our forgiveness since Jesus died and rose again (I John 1:9)," The rule is to walk in love. And then we will know forgiveness and when to avoid a brother. What Jesus said does apply today. Ehesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. "forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you" And how and when did this happen-when God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. When we were born again? And how do we know when and if that has happened. I don't buy the SIT rap twi style. Or is it Jesus' death and resurrection followed by the day of Pentecost, and then a blanket of forgiveness for everyone? Whether or not they are born again or not? Our sins were nailed to the cross-when do we receive the benefits of this event. Consider this from vpw's own mouth. "The only alternative to twi is spiritualism" What was he talking about here? What did he not want us to know about? Now just like christianity, spiritualism has good people and bad people involved. Good apples and bad apples. The spiritualism that vp was talking about was the bad ones I suppose. But there is something to looking beyond the well defined boundaries of christian doctrine and taking a look at just what the rest of the spiritual people are doing. And I'm not saying to sink your teeth deep into their religions, but just skim the the top of them and you might have a different perspective on what Jesus was talking about.

Geek's original post; "Hi folks, I wonder what Jesus would say if he read our posts on Greasespot. That's an interesting question, isn't it? We're a mixed lot: some oldster greasespotters who check out the forums once in a while, but have mostly moved past their prolific posting days, some regulars who still get something out of posting every day, many lurkers who come here to witness this menagerie, and some newbies who really need this forum to air their emotions and seek reinforcement and validation for their feelings and experiences. I come here once in a while to test the wind. I'd like to float this idea to see what you all think. Maybe, for some it will be the appropriate time to consider this, for others not, I know this, so if you are not ready for this yet, OK, maybe later... One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness. It undeniably is one of the most difficult teachings of Jesus to attain, but also is undeniably one of the most healing in its effects. We all have been hurt by lcm and his henchmen, or by other people connected with twi. Some of the offenders are no longer affiliated with twi, some are dead, others are still sitting pretty in that outfit. Meanwhile we are trying to get on with our lives after suffering various levels of abuse by the hands of these aforementioned twi representatives. My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness? What you say, shall I let them off the hook? They are impenitent still so they do not deserve it! But consider who gets the most benefits from forgiveness. Does the forgiver or the offender benefit the most? From what I have witnessed on Greasespot, there are many of us who still harbor negative feelings for those who abused us. These negative feelings range from minor irritation all the way to vehement revenge. But consider this before you direct a salvo my way... Oftentimes the offender is oblivious, yet we steam, so who is affected more? We are. And undoubtedly these negaitve felings hurt us far more than those they are directed against. So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you. Does anyone want to talk about this?" Clearly Geek is pointing his finger at everyone and singled out specificaly who to forgive. Yet he will not answer any questions, not even his own. "Does anyone want to talk about this?" Geek doesn't want to talk. Maybe he just enjoys the fights, I don't know. He won't answer anyone's questions apparently.

ex... you don't have to say what you learned in pfal. My last post might have been miss interpreted.

Pfal was the launching pad for the abuse. I don't separate pfal from the abuse.

The thing is that there is not one blanket answer for every situation and individual. All that the bible says about forgiveness is true.