WordWolf

d,

Perhaps the year was 1972? I remember seeing a picture of the Advanced Class participants when it was held in Rye that year in an old Way Magazine.

Also, I'm not sure there were enough "believers" in NY to hold an Advanced Class in 1968 (but I could be wrong about that - any of the "groovy Christians" here at GS know differently?)

I wasn't there.

Depending on the source, the Groovy Christians started with the House of Acts/Haight-Ashbury Christians

in 1967 or 1968. (TW:LiL says 1967, the official timeline says 1968, and is probably correct.)

If they arrived in early 1969 in Rye, by late 1969 there would be enough of them to justify a class.

1970 was when Life Magazine ran their article, and the Groovy Christians were already a reality by the

time they WROTE it, let alone RAN the article.

If I were to make a guess, I'd guess 1969-1970 was the class.

"What is it?"

"The sound of treachery."

"We'll be at this all day."

"Empires crumble. There are no exceptions."

"You're sweet... and you're young. Neither are traits that I hold in high regard."

Wordwolf,

Re:<B><I><font color=maroon>"The answer is something that has not been discussed yet. Member of the Trinity? No. Began existence in Mary's womb and no sooner? No.

So, what IS the answer? I wish I knew."</font></I></B>

You are a very inquistive fellow with high intelligence and good insights. I think that if you continue to ponder the evidence.. you might be very unhappy with what you have to conclude. But what do I know?

<center>sudo</center>

Some of the evidence I'm working with, you don't have access to. Therefore, our conclusions need not agree.

If I were to try to reach an agnostic or atheist position, I'd need to discard too much evidence

that can't be accounted for by either position. You, of course, may reach any position based on any

evidence you've accounted for. The most extreme position I can adopt would still fall under

a monotheist or a Deist position.

Thanks, Word Wolf - great post - makes a lot of sense to me...I've also thought of the wave/particle issue in regards to this subject.

You're putting me on.

Really?

Ever toy with the conclusion I ended up concluding?

I have heard it taught that those people who constantly claim that God is giving them moment by moment revelation on how to live life are people who are getting it wrong. As you say, Lone Wolf, direct revelation comes rarely. But God has given us a 'rule book', the Bible, which is in itself revelation from God that has been written down.

Thanks, Bolshevik, for your post. I really don't think God cares very much in this day and time what anyone has for breakfast.

I would agree with this.

I would not discount God giving revelation at any PARTICULAR moment, as sometimes

what seems like a trivial detail may later prove to have been critical

(I'm thinking of my own life here, some time ago),

but the idea that someone's "channelling" Heavy Revelation 24/7 is just plain preposterous.

God gave you a brain to use.

I mean, if something's up with the breakfast, He may say something, but otherwise,

you and your shredded wheat are on your own.

I don't think I've chimed in yet.

So, here's my current thinking,

which is likely to anger ALL positions evenly. Fair's fair. ;)

Ockham's Razor states that when seeking to select between 2 or more possible answers-

like A) Jesus is God the Son, part of God

and B) Jesus is the Son of God, a separate being

one is to examine both answers.

If both completely answer the question, then between the two, you select the most

simple, straightforward of the two as correct.

That's a rule of thumb, not an immutable "Law".

Now,

I've observed and studied for years, on and off, on this.

I've seen that both positions have answers which I find less than satisfactory

to settle specific questions that are raised to their positions.

So, I proceed to a corollary on Ockham's Razor.

I was unable to select either as COMPLETELY answering the question.

One corollary states that if NONE of the answers FULLY answers the question,

then ALL answers are WRONG and the CORRECT answer has not been raised yet.

This came up when studying light.

Is it a particle-photons? Is it a wave-lightwaves?

It has attributes of both, and either fails to account for some of the evidence.

Therefore, some people memorize answers like

"it is a particle that travels like a wave",

which, frankly, is a cop-out on admitting NEITHER answer really works COMPLETELY,

and they ARE mutually-exclusive.

Since I find neither position in this discussion to FULLY answer all objections to them

in a manner I consider intellectually satisfying (meaning they ALL work on paper),

based on the corollary to Ockham's Razor,

I have concluded BOTH answers are WRONG.

The answer is something that has not been discussed yet.

Member of the Trinity? No. Began existence in Mary's womb and no sooner? No.

So, what IS the answer?

I wish I knew.

I can perceive I'm not smart enough to find it at this time.

I'll keep trying, but I probably WON'T know until we ALL know.

.

But what about THE MIRRORS???

They can follow their own path.

I thought revisiting this for a moment might be fun.

Didn't they review the blue book last time? Or maybe that was a couple of them back.. Really seems to me they are grasping at straws on what to teach, and everyone going is just going because it's a requirement, because I don't they really get anything helpful out of them..

Oh yeah, they teach you how to "believe" better.. As if that will do any gppd. How to grit your teach and ignore the world around you while you just mentally ascent to your own belief.. Just what the world needs, more hot air!

Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 12:

"Anything worth selling is worth selling twice."

"Babe"?

George

No.

"What is it?"

"The sound of treachery."

"We'll be at this all day."

*checks*

That would be HCW's thread there,

"The L.E.A.D. accident. What happened?",

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4877

Including the closing line of the series DID make it a bit easy to bullseye....

Anybody think that the kids are coached prior to the show on the answers in order to make the show interesting by making adults look stupid?

No.

I'm watching, and they're getting a lot of things WRONG, and getting right the things

they have been seeing regularly, like the formula for calculating area and so on.

I must try out for this show....

*pokes* WASWAY, your turn...

"BIG!"

What other movie does a man cash his paycheck and ask for it in denominations that fit

into video games?

I have no idea as I am unfamiliar with the dialog.

Do have a question for Raf and WordWolf, where do you find these dialogs? (I am assuming you are not writing them from memory.)

Suda

In some cases, I HAVE gone from memory.

With DC Cab, I found NOTHING and worked hard to remember lines.

With "Stand and Deliver", I popped in the DVD and paused when I found some good lines.

With the others, I Goggled.

I put the name of the movie in quotes, I put the word "quotes" in quotes,

and then looked up the results.

In the case of Yellow Submarine, that gave me 2 pages.

In the case of the Highlander tv show, I ended up on Wikipedia pages.

Most movies, you'll find yourself on its IMDB page,

written up by fans of that movie.

In the case of the Star Trek episodes, I Google for the SCRIPT. Many episodes' scripts have been

posted entirely on webpages.

Nope.

"You've gotta get me someone who knows what she is doing. Excuse me. I'm not getting any of my mail, nothing has been filed. Ever since she got engaged, my life has been a disaster."

"You know, she came so highly recommended."

"She spent the last three months writing down her married name. "Mrs. Judy Hicks", "Mrs. Donald Hicks"; "Mrs. Judy Mitchellson Hicks", sometimes with a hyphen, sometimes without a hyphen. Sometimes, she spells the hyphen."

I remember the line about spelling the hyphen, but that didn't tell me which movie like the paycheck did.

(Yes, technically, dollar bills won't fit in a game, but in any arcade, you'll give singles to get handfuls of

quarters. And if you're on a roll, a worker there will stay nearby as you keep flagging him over

for more change. Ah, memories...Revolution X.... STUNrunner....)

The thief's name was Rasmussen.

Here's how I answered previous objections earlier in the thread, when they came up.

Same questions, from 2 different people. To save time, I'll answer them together.

twi put forth that they had not only A true understanding of Scripture, but

THE True Understanding of Scripture,

that anyone who agreed with them had the incontrovertible truth,

that anyone who disagreed with them were idjits who lived in error.

They still push this.

Among other things, they've put forth doctrines that are not allowed to be questioned-

that are unable to be supported beyond "this is what I say so believe it"-

and people questioning beyond that are told to just accept that leadership

has examined it and concluded it to be true.

(This is generally a lie-nobody "examined" it-it was declared by divine fiat.)

Among the beliefs they taught/teach are some odd teachings concerning sex.

The two subjects mentioned here were interrelated in their explanations-

they propounded ONE odd belief to justify the OTHER odd belief,

NEITHER of which seems to have a shred of BIBLICAL support.

Mind you,

even discussing or entertaining the notion that they might be wrong

was forbidden in twi/IS STILL FORBIDDEN IN TWI.

Even the messageboards of members face "sanctions" if anyone dares to

initiate even a well-mannered discussion of same.

So, this discussion has never taken place before.

Furthermore,

twi, AFAIK, STILL teaches this, and there are other people who teach

this- since "if it was good enough for wierwille, it's good enough

for me".

So, the discussing of doctrines I find to be a healthy thing.

The actual investigations, as we saw, were NEVER conducted in twi,

and-I gather-were never done until now by ex-twi, either.

So, this is technically new ground.

Thus, I consider this unfinished business.

Furthermore, sooner or later,

someone's going to come in and claim these are true.

(It happened with the other subject-about the oath-before.)

Therefore, I'm saving time in refutation of it when it happens.

I think the odd grouping of a number of teachings-

unique to twi-all centering around sex or body parts-

is suspicious and indicative of something.

Up to you to conclude WHAT it is indicative OF.

Let's face it-

vpw set out, from the beginning, to be obyed without question, and to never have disagreements.

That's why he dissolved the Board of Directors and set up a trio that he could control.

That's why he put forth he was the sole Christian in 2000 years to hear the voice of God and

teach God's Word like it hadn't been known in that time-while taking all his teachings from

material already in existence.

That's why the corps was set up to FOLLOW ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION NO MATTER WHAT.

(We're still hearing horror stories about that.)

That's why he was "The Teacher"- even long before he ever taught a pfal/rthst class.

That's why "the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command."

etc. etc.

vpw wanted people who were-in terms of judgement and free will- HELPLESS.

That way, he could tell them what to believe and what to do-

and they'd believe it and do it.

Was he successful?

There's still people believing everything he said and he's been dead for 20 years.

How's that for a successful salesman and conman?

To work on staff was to be subject to his rants when he felt like ranting-without warning,

without pattern and without good cause,

and to be paid less than minimum wage AND not contribute to a Social Security fund,

thus ensuring you would NEED to "work until you die."

(That's only been corrected for the last year or two.)

To be a corps grad was to follow any orders that came down,

to work on your own, send in 10% of your salary,

to take 2 weeks off work, travel on your own money to hq,

then spend 2 weeks of manual labour setting up and putting on the ROA-

or earn vpw's wrath for having a life.

To be a corps student was to spend 4 years paying tuition, live in a walk-in closet,

eat disgusting food I've never HEARD of because it's cheap,

perform manual labour while paying for the privilege,

and risk life and limb hitchhiking to sell pfal

or climb mountains under unsafe directions and unsafe instructors.

How many people do you know came out of the way corps looking malnourished

and wearing cast-off clothing and second-hand suits?

For which they paid tuition for....

To be a wow was to pay them for the privilege of going wow,

be sent somewhere with no say on the location,

travel on your own expense (carpooling with wows in cars),

work fulltime and sell pfal,

run pfal classes on your own time and at your own expense,

then return at the end at your own expense,

having brought in pfal class tuitions and new people expected to pay 10%

of their salaries,

for which you received a lapel pin.

To be none of the above was to be told what to do by those who WERE

in the above categories (except wows), and to be told to give 10% of your

income and believe whatever vpw said-

and encourage others to do the same.

All levels of involvement in twi were constructed to benefit vpw,

accomplish his goals, and to do whatever he said and soak up whatever punishment

he sought to dish out.

And those closest to him were hardly immune to this-

cg admitted in pop that he (cg) and ha put up with a lot of abuse

from vpw.

A read-thru of "vp and me" shows lcm put up with abuse from vpw when they

were in contact.

God only knows what Mrs W lived through.

I think that disconnect was always there... can anyone think of a time when Wierwille was truly about serving others?

BUT, they always taught just what you are saying: it should be "Here am I, send me." Not "Here am I, serve me."

How did that happen?

We were taught that "true" service came in the form of "teaching a man to fish". (You know the old proverb, give a man a fish and he'll eat today, but teach him to fish and he'll be fed a lifetime.) So, everything leadership was taught to do was supposed to be to that aim: teaching people how to live their lives in order to have better lives. That was supposed to be our service.

But I have found it so often to be the case that twi taught EXACTLY what the Bible said, and still practiced completely the opposite, and somehow reconciled the two in their/our minds.

Another example of this is in Craig's WAP foundational class. He teaches about how the miserable comforters blamed Job for his misfortunes, and said that if someone is grieving over the death of a loved one, or trying to get healed up from a horrible sickness, that is NOT the time to criticize and critique them. In fact, in the class he was pretty adamant about it. That is the time to love them. There will be time enough for reproof and correction later he said. HUH???????? Then what the heck was Martindale doing all those times he reamed people out because a spouse died, or they had a sickness in the family? Reamed them out within days, even HOURS of the tragedy occurring! ---- Why, he was LOVING them up, dontcha know... by showing them the truth of the Word, you see. Teaching them how to fish. Uh-huh. Saving them from some continuation of the tragedy by helping them get back on track spiritually.... <_<

Bingo.

twi taught EXACTLY what the Bible said, still practiced completely the opposite, and somehow reconciled

the two in their/our minds.

That's why some people STILL claim that all their dealings were completely above-board and fair-

because they were fair ON PAPER,

and can't conceive of the idea that they'd WRITE ONE THING and PRACTICE ANOTHER.

Actually,

I'm just one poster with one opinion.

Others have their own.

The staff makes their own decisions and carries them out,

partly in accordance with the policies they've enacted.

If you think you can sway them, go ahead and contact them.

If you object to a specific post, you can click on that post's "Report" button.

If you think you can sway the opinions of most posters, go ahead, post

your "argument", and see if it moves anyone.

Your posts objecting are as welcome here as posts that you perceive as

tasteless but are not illegal.

The internet-and the GSC- are sorts of "free market economies" of ideas.

Of course, you can always just let this particular one go- I do that all the

time, choosing what to respond to and what to leave alone when I don't

think I can add to the discussion.

That's not the episode I have in mind, but the "conscious or not" line might have been used there, as well.

George

Then I'm probably mistaken. I doubt they'd reuse it.

I'm not sure if anything can be proven from scripture but then again there is ALOT of scripture that we don't have access to. I've wondered if they didn't do sexual preversions to Jesus. If they would beat him so that his visage was marred more than any man then why wouldn't they do other kinds of atrocities to him too. It wouldn't surprise me if we found out they did - just what we know is pretty hlorrific.

Scourging alone produces some horrific damage.

It won't KILL you as fast as it MUTILATES you, because it's designed primarily to

TEAR SKIN and not PENETRATE FLESH so much.

But being horribly beaten, at the time, was not as isolated as some people think

or portray. (Not COMMON, but not unknown.)

I came across some references a number of years back concerning their

gladiator games. Some of them were man to man, weaponless combat,

which is no less brutal for using fists rather than swords.

Leather caps were instituted later to preserve ears from being bitten off.

Anyway, one poet wrote of a fighter who came home so brutally beaten up

that his own dog didn't recognize him.

Whether literally true or not, the concept was at least feasible to them at the time.

Does anyone know if CM gets paid by the ministry each month or quarterly or get severance pay or anything? I find it hard to believe that he left with nothing. Just wondering.

Last I heard,

twi owns the house where he lives, and he either lived with or currently lives with a

twi doctor, who could keep an eye on him if needed.

If they're laundering some cash and handing it to him in an envelope,

we haven't seen proof of it.

Perhaps some GSCer can get some video of it and put it on YouTube or something.

THEN we'd have something on the subject.

I've been waiting until I had something to add before responding.

All I can say is,

Every time I think I've read the WORST thing vpw or twi people have ever done,

someone else posts something WORSE that they were an eyewitness to.

The name Kivas Fajo is coming to mind here....