WordWolf

Nice program. For my purposes, though, the GIMP is more than sufficient. http://gimp.org/

Let's see... 70-something-year-old man takes the hand of a woman in her 30s, "placed it on his pants where an erection was". (Says "Ain't had one of these in 20 years.") Johniam calls that "beautiful" I call it INAPPROPRIATE and OPPORTUNISTIC and WRONG. Would it have been JUST as "beautiful" if he'd demonstrated it was there by opening his pants and whipping it out? By this kind of thinking, that's just fine too. Most of us (possibly John, as well) would say "That's wrong no matter what! There's no place and time that this would be appropriate to do to her!" But it's fundamentally the same issue as what was "beautiful" as explained by John. A man took the hand of a woman not his wife (and, presumably, not even in some sort of similar intimate relationship of fornication), and placed it on his pants over his erect penis. No matter WHAT he said after that, before that, or during that, it's WRONG. (Apparently in public, too- since John knew it happened.) However, that which is wrong, inappropriate, lewd or lascivious is EXCUSED in a twi atmosphere if it's endorsed. There, being appropriate in conduct is wrong, it's prudish, it's "teaching the human body is evil", and doing things all other Christians everywhere would call inappropriate, lewd or lascivious is "BEAUTIFUL." Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! That's what we were told, which is why parents and CHILDREN took this class.However, the claims don't match up- neither to the exaggerations of what was taught to kids AND ADULTS outside of twi- nor to what other Christians learned in other formats- nor in what was taught in the CFS. This is the kind of dysfunctional "black and white" thinking that characterizes the damaged processes inside of places like twi. "Either it's ok to show porn to teens, or you're teaching that the human body is evil!!!!!111111!!!" How about there being some APPROACHES that are good, and some APPROACHES that are not? Outside of twi and ex-twi, this is NOT hard to see. At certain ages, some things can be taught. At the same ages, some things should NOT be taught. === Since we're discussing vpw, perversion and what's "beautiful", one of our posters was in the corps and sat through when vpw HIMSELF was going into detail concerning some imaginary African tribe where the fathers teach the pre-teen daughters about sex, and went into some specifics about something they did which involved putting their hands on their daughters. (No I'm not retyping it.) vpw called THAT "beautiful" after bringing it up. Still consider that "educational" as well, or do you think it was inappropriate to discuss that with the corps at all? Was it "beautiful" that some fathers of vpw's invention put their hands on their preteen daughters to teach then about sex? vpw said it was so- is claiming otherwise "thinking evil?"

O RLY? Actually, I just picked up "the Dawkins Delusion" by Alister Mc Grath and Jonanna Collicutt Mc Grath. It's got some wheels spinning.

In fairness, I do agree with some of what you said without qualification. My thinking is, if twi's reality matched its claims, we wouldn't be here sharing behind-the-scenes stories. We'd be here, still in, largely agreeing with doctrine and policies. (Most of us-I imagine some would have moved on regardless, and there would be some faces we don't have now as well.) I think that sharing the ugly truths about twi is necessary, albeit somewhat distasteful. Growing PAST twi is a goal for almost everyone here.(The rest want to replicate their twi experience, and since they are adults, they're entitled to try even if I disagree strongly.) As a Christian, I believe some of what was taught- and some of what was practiced, both locally and corporately- was on the mark. As a Christian, I believe some of it was not- and both practice and doctrine in some cases made the entire experience harmful. Not for nothing were we warned "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (I Corinthians 5 AND Galatians 5.) God wanted to let us know that perfectly godly stuff-with a small amount of adulteration- can be degraded so it's no longer what He wanted. (If one is to believe I Corinthians 5 and Galatians 5, anyway- I've seen someone argue against it while claiming they believe the whole Bible.) I say the same. That's largely why I'm here.(My time on the game threads notwithstanding.) Still growing and still alive, hey, that's fine. You've gotten farther than some people-not that we're in a race or anything... Those of us still Christians, we all say that. One organization that shrank into obscurity inside of 50 years, that's an eyeblink in God's story.

Ha! I clicked on the link using Anonymouser, and I got vague results and the wrong IP. (I clicked on it normally a minute before, and all my usual info came up.)

Nobody said the sole-or even most likely purpose- for a 50-year-old to show teens and early 20s videos of young women having sex with animals was specifically to PROMOTE BESTIALITY. However, pretending the only choices are "he was trying to get people into bestiality" and "he had some other purpose, which was noble" makes it a lot easier to pretend that there WERE sane reasons to show bestiality pornographic videos to young people.

Isn't it a terrible shame that what you were sold wasn't the reality? You're still a Christian, you're still the person you were- only moreso. You're no longer shackled to THEIR version of anything, no longer limited to THEIR limitations.

It was VERY convenient- for the MOG, of course.

Man, I wish we ALL had been in the twi you two were in. It sounds like such a great place. I mean, I was spared all the REAL damage, and it still sounds like the twi I was in sucked eggs compared to the one you guys were in.

Then again, there WERE events every once in a while that "shook people out of the magnolias", crystallizing what they'd already been seeing, or that got their attention so they started looking around, and in each case, led to exits from twi one way or another. twi had its first surge of membership at the end of the 60s, when the hippies were hijacked. Some of them left when around 73- the "no rules and lots of God's love" of the Jesus People was kicked out in favour of twi-endorsed and twi-trained leaders. After 1976, I expect there was a mini-burp as well. The Watchtower Society ("Jehovah's Witnesses") has learned through their own history that the end-of-the-world-crisis means LOTS of people join up as the apocalypse approaches- and then LOTS of people leave as it passes and the world is still here. twi in 1976 had their first (AFAIK) end-of-the-world-crisis, so I expect they had the same thing happen in 1977, where some people walked out. In 1979, twi was at its apex, member-size-wise. It was also around the time there were enough corps (twi-trained leaders) to spare to run all the territories, placing them at the top from the trunk, region, limb, and territory levels. (Which meant the branch coordinators best cooperate...) In the early 1980s, vpw put lcm- who was poorly-trained and poorly-educated for the task- in charge of twi, from being in charge of the corps (which he was poorly-trained and poorly-educated for as well.) The rules and regulations multiplied, and this came to a head in 1985. In 1985, vpw died, which shocked some people expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime, and cg wrote the pop paper, which was then read to large numbers of them, and the top leadership rolled over. (For those who never read it, it's in its entirety here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydal...-patriarch.html ) In 1989, lcm drew his line in the sand, and demanded an oath of loyalty from all leaders, and fired all the ones that refused to do exactly that. ("I respect you but my sworn loyalty is to God and your demand is unScriptural" meant "you're fired".) In 1994, lcm cancelled the ROA, and finished making his draconian corps measures the standard for all of twi. In 1999-2000, twi admitted in court that they knew about lcm using his office to have sex with women. Each of those seems to have resulted in posters here saying "That's when I got fed up, realized things were not going to get better, and left twi." (I'm not so certain about 1977.)

Within a cycle of 3-5 years (for some people, less) interactions in twi degraded drastically.. Stage 1: Honeymoon stage. Everyone loves you, you are precious in God's sight, and therefore in twi's sight. The classes will explain everything once you take them. Stage 2:Sunset stage. You're loved, but there's expectations of performance-with social sanctions in place for conformity. The classes you took answered a few questions, but your REAL questions will be answered further up- in the Advanced class, or once you enter the wow program (you'll see it in action) or it's reserved for the corps. Since you're expected to know better, the "everyone loves you" thing has faded, unless of course it's from family members in the way (and even then there are no guarantees....) Stage 3:Hard lessons stage. Reality has kicked in. The classes offered more questions than answers- even if specific answers were claimed to be in classes. You're expected to be a top performer, so you don't "feel the love" unless you're performing- witnessing, and otherwise spouting the company line at the drop of a hat. You have SOME answers, but not all the important ones, and you wonder where the love went. (Unless of course you have family members in the way-which is still no guarantee...) You've now seen things at twi locations, and found some never matched the hype. However, speaking of that incurs social sanctions (you're "speaking negatives" and so on), since inconvenient truths are never to be spoken of in twi. Unofficial (and sometimes designated) thought police will clamp down ruthlessly on any dissent they find. The organization you saw in Stage 1 in no way resembles the organization you saw in Stage 3. Responses to Stage 3 vary, and can include convincing yourself that what you saw was all incorrect and twi doctrine WAS correct, and can also include getting fed up and leaving. That's why there were cycles of people leaving- there were cycles of people ENTERING. When they reached Stage 3- or Stage 3 reached them like in the pop letter being read, or lcm drawing his line in the sand in 89- they often left. Most of them complained the organization was a lot worse than a few years ago, when they arrived. In some cases, that was true- but usually, it just meant they knew a LOT more about things than they once did. =========== Then again, from 1969-1973, things DID change. In 1969-1970, the rank-and-file were the Jesus People and the Groovy Christians, whom H33fn3r and D00p spoke Christ to, and they responded in a major way. Around 1973 was when vpw kicked out H33fn3r and D00p, and declared all the local money and local loyalty were to be shipped entirely to hq. (This is when he finished "hijacking the hippies.") So, rules and regulations DID suddenly replace God's love and no earthly regulations. Often, in other timeframes, that was secondary to the PERCEPTION of that changing.

It's not so much "backpedaling" as "reinterpreting things so you weren't REALLY wrong, or saying the false prophecy "prevented itself from coming true." vpw was fond of the latter. It was the believing of twi people that saved the US in 1976. (Amazingly, we're still hearing that from some posters, so this tactic WORKS.) On the other hand, if it was some sort of psychic, vpw was vocal about them being a FALSE PROPHET if what they said didn't come to pass. At ROA '79, he made a big deal about some supposed predictions made for the first 1/2 of 1979, where someone predicted a major earthquake "in some city-I think it was Oklahoma City." He used BOTH answers to their failure to predict. He said he wished he had contact information for the person who made that prediction. "I'd let them know we have some people called The Way in that state and city and county.... *pause for applause* then I'd take them to that place in Deuteronomy that says that if a prophet says something and it doesn't come to pass, then they are FALSE PROPHETS." For those of you wondering, he was talking about Deuteronomy 18:20-22. (KJV) "20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (NASB) " 20'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' 21"You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

A handful of wayfers have reported they knew. They were either right on grounds, or in direct contact with people on grounds, or had rare coordinators who believed in full disclosure. The overwhelming majority of posters-including myself- were all told that he "got tired of the fight", or "stopped believing", as if either was something that's written on a death certificate.

BINGO.

Can this be the Mr Magoo Christmas Carol? :blink:

Through the Advanced class, there was no WIDESPREAD teaching of anything other than life being what was between "first breath" and "last breath"- which itself was straight out of pfal Foundational. If someone somewhere said otherwise, that's interesting, but that means little when the entire organization was expected to spit back the pfal answers to anything. If you wanted to even TAKE the Advanced class, you needed to be able to regurgitate sufficient amounts of the pfal class. I'm sure there were a FEW people who saw this interesting article, but overwrite the answer from the pfal class? Sorry, I was IN twi once, and that NEVER happened, and was suppressed if it was suggested with anything.

So, Larry.... What WAS the relevance of bringing the late Mrs W into the discussion about the legitimacy of vpw? I presume you meant to add to the discussion by bringing her up, but I missed the relevance. For the benefit of those of us who did, please explain it outright.

Ok, if we're being specific, this is "Scrooge", and if I have to go with a version, I'll say the one with Alastair Sims.

Is this the latest in the endless "twi is only slightly broken- WE can fix it!!!!!" attempts that so many of US attempted over the decades? Someone didn't learn the lessons of the past?

"Nash"- slang shorthand for "national", and in this case, referring specifically to TWI Headquarters, the national (or international) headquarters. Meaning, the physical locale there, as opposed to, say the WayCofE, or the Way Family Ranch. Just doing my part to help. :)

Here's where a few of the quotes were from.... "It just goes to show, do not grab the third rail with both hands and p1$$ on it from 3 inches away!" Myth tested- can you get electrocuted by whizzing on the third rail? Well, yes, but the conditions have to be extremely specific..... "The police officer said you need to drink more." "You know, my Doctor was also telling me that I'm not getting enough tar…so, I need to start smoking again!" Myth tested- can you do something to fool a breath-alyzer test? Step 1 had to be, obviously, get drunk first... "Quack, damn you!" "Don't mess with me, duck." Myth tested- do ducks' quacks actually not echo? Step 1-record ducks quacking- if you can GET them to quack.... "I can't help but notice that IT'S NOT ON FIRE YET!" "Our death ray doesn't seem to be working right. I'm standing right in it, and I'm not dead yet." Myth tested- did ancient Greeks set ships on fire with a solar-reflecting death ray? No- even modern mirrors couldn't light a raft wet with gasoline... "That means the first stop is a hay store." "Uh, otherwise known as a farm." "Ah, the hay store." Myth: can you find a needle in a haystack? Step 1: get haystacks... "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!" Show's catchphrase. "Hi, we're here to buy a trombone." "Sure, for a student?" "Well no, actually we want to blow it up." "You want to blow it up? We have some used ones." Semi-typical response when these guys are shopping for necessary tools. "And then suddenly...nothing happened." Often the result when using Plan A. They've said usually Plan D works, and A-C didn't. "Let's get on our knees and pray. I don't know to whom. Is there a patron saint of ballistics gel?" Ballistics gel is used in a LOT of tests, where they fill a dummy with it to simulate a human body. "Breaking big things for science, every day." Another typical line for the show. Your turn, moose!

Correct. I was counting on that often-quoted line to do it.

"I just had one of those "what the hell are we doing" moments!" "If I had any dignity, that would have been humiliating." "Come, Silent Walrus, let us storm the castle! I will don my safety gear." "Frank, why are you standing so far away?" "Because I wanna continue to live." "So then the next question is, why am I standing so close?" "How hard can it be to blow up a room full of gasoline?" "We made something blow up!" "Any day we create that much shrapnel is a good day." "It just goes to show, do not grab the third rail with both hands and p1$$ on it from 3 inches away!" "The police officer said you need to drink more." "You know, my Doctor was also telling me that I'm not getting enough tar…so, I need to start smoking again!" "Quack, damn you!" "Don't mess with me, duck." "I can't help but notice that IT'S NOT ON FIRE YET!" "Our death ray doesn't seem to be working right. I'm standing right in it, and I'm not dead yet." "This is the show. It's like four minutes of science and then ten minutes of me hurting myself." "I just did the math. I need him to weigh 25 pounds." "So you're saying that he needs to be built out of depleted uranium." "Do you have some? Is it under 'D' or 'U' over here?" "That means the first stop is a hay store." "Uh, otherwise known as a farm." "Ah, the hay store." "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!" "Hi, we're here to buy a trombone." "Sure, for a student?" "Well no, actually we want to blow it up." "You want to blow it up? We have some used ones." "And then suddenly...nothing happened." "Let's get on our knees and pray. I don't know to whom. Is there a patron saint of ballistics gel?" "In Monterey Bay, Ping-Pong ball plus sea otter equals jail time for at least some member of the crew, I think we'll have to draw straws to figure out who." "Breaking big things for science, every day."

For those of you that forgot about the Tulsa snow job, here's what vpw said about it in TW:LiL: pg-198. So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened- there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time."' ===== Meanwhile, "The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees [Farenheit], and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma' show only 5/10 an inch of snow in Dec 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec 20. NEITHER date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSSES AND TRAINS. Way Corps graduate Barries Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by 'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.) Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do NOT record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called the airport, train station and bus station. (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!)" ========== For those curious about what was conjecture and what was fact, here's the score: Blizzard in Tulsa: proven lie vpw lied about blizzard in Tulsa: fact (unless one is prepared to accept "angels lied to me" as "evidence") angels covered up all evidence the city was not having any SNOW, let alone a blizzard: unsupported conjecture offered by vpw. (This would require them intercepting phonecalls to bus, train and plane lines, as well as deceiving the people at the convention and deceiving vpw so he saw people entering the building covered in snow.) Most logical conclusion: vpw lied about the snowstorm. Alternate conclusion: angels lied to vpw, who truthfully passed on their lies in ignorance Those of you playing along have the choice of which conclusion you think is correct. Then of course, there's the non-committal conclusion: "I do not wish to think about this at all or form any opinion on this." Of course, that raises the question of what one is avoiding. but anyone can choose this...

For the curious, here's the difference we were discussing. Here's how one paragraph ORIGINALLY read in the 2nd edition, (pg-8): "The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had been taught and start anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. It took me seven years to find a man of God schooled in the Holy Spirit, a man who knew the Scripture on the Holy Spirit, and could fit it together so that I dod not have to omit, deny or change any one passage. He made the Scripture fit like a hand fits into a glove, and when you can do that, you can be assured of having truth." Here's the corresponding paragraph in the 7th Edition, the one most of us got to read: ====== "The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all that I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. I did not want to omit, deny, or change any passage for, the Word of God being the will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove." ====== In "the Way:Living in Love", vpw has a chance to set the record straight concerning the White Book. Here's what he says about Stiles' book with Bullinger's stuff and a little Leonard attached to it: "TW:LIL, pg-209. "Somewhere in there I wrote the first holy spirit book. I can't remember exactly what year. I'd been working those 385 scriptures and they began to all fall into place." "We're having the sixth edition printed now of that book: Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. It's a great piece of research." == He was speaking of the year 1954. Also the "385 scriptures" is a number he got specifically from Bullinger's book "the Giver and His Gifts" (now known as "Word Studies in the Holy Spirit"), which is devoted entirely to listing all 385 instances. No mention of that, either.