WordWolf

Some Wiccans believe the Christian devil was taken from the old gods of the forests and fields, the Horned Gods, Herne, Cernunos, Pan, Dispater... demonized by the church to drive peopel away and into the church. That is why he isn't in the old testament.

Actually, I've found that some more erudite Wiccans say that Cernunnos was taken from Herne and was

supposed to be the same guy.

As for Dis Pater, he and Orcus were merged into Pluto the Roman god, where they had all previously been

separate from Hades the Greek god. Is there a reference somewhere that equates him with the

Horned Gods of the fields like Pan?

A) You were thinking for yourself.

B) Someone at hq didn't like it-therefore it was "wrong."

C) It would have resulted in you handling money yourselves, making a decision as to its disposition,

and executing it. twi did NOT want you getting ANY practice at that...

It doesn't involve time travel, here's another piece of dialog from a different character earlier in the show.

This is my personal valet, Mona Lovesit...she speaks seven languages has degrees in biology, chemistry, physics can fly anything from a jet to a helicopter and makes an excellent martini, cheers.

That's got to be from when Julian Bashir is running his James Bond-like "secret agent"

holodeck progam.

I forget the title-it may be "Our Man Bashir", but I'm not absolutely certain.

My favourite character title from that one was that there's a chick named Honey Bare.

Can I join in?

Sure you can join in!

Right now, we're waiting for Raf to post, since it is his turn.

(He got the last correct answer.)

It will be your turn if you get the next correct answer,

or he forfeits it to anyone (or you specifically, I suppose) and you're the next poster,

or he doesn't post it for a week or something and we want to move the thread.

Right now, you join us by waiting for Raf's next (first) quote for this round.

Ok, here's my position, and why I maintain it.

(Judging from the previous posts, my position has already been judged capricious and provincial.

That hasn't changed my position-I believe the stronger case is for this position.)

The Dictionary of Misinformation claims that the Isaiah 14 section never refers to the devil,

because it says it's addressed to the King of Babylon.

Well, it DOES say that, and I won't pretend it doesn't.

(All quotes from the NASB.)

Isaiah 14:4

"that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,

'How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!' "

However, that is hardly the entire case.

Addressing something to someone serving satan does not mean that the message is not meant for

satan's ears after all. If that person is a mouthpiece of his, even a self-proclaimed one, the message

IS for satan.

Isaiah 14:12-14.

"How you have fallen from heaven,

O star of the morning, son of the dawn!

You have been cut down to the earth,

You who have weakened the nations!

13 But you said in your heart,

'I will ascend to heaven;

I will raise my throne above the stars of God,

And I will sit on the mount of assembly

In the recesses of the north.

14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High.'

Interesting set of attributes this guy has. He's referred to as a star. That's also been the case for

angels, and for Jesus Christ at the end of the Book of Revelation.

In fact, this is rendered nearly the same, or EXACTLY the same, as the title Jesus has at the end

of Revelation.

Revelation 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the

descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Even for a king, this guy's aspirations appear pretty lofty.

We've got that "stars" thing again, almost as if it's saying he wanted to elevate himself

above the angels. That's accurate if it's describing someone replacing God.

In fact, that's what it says he thinks he can do, in verse 14.

Is this really describing a monomaniacal king, or someone pulling his strings?

Ezekiel 28:12-17

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him,

'Thus says the Lord GOD,

"You had the seal of perfection,

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;

Every precious stone was your covering:

The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;

The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;

The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;

And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,

Was in you.

On the day that you were created

They were prepared.

14"You were the anointed cherub who covers,

And I placed you there

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

15"You were blameless in your ways

From the day you were created

Until unrighteousness was found in you.

16"By the abundance of your trade

You were internally filled with violence,

And you sinned;

Therefore I have cast you as profane

From the mountain of God.

And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the stones of fire.

17"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;

You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor

I cast you to the ground;

I put you before kings,

That they may see you.'"

Someone may of course say "this says it's about the king of Tyre. Any other possibility is precluded."

Well, it's not quite that simple.

This supposed "man" has some even MORE peculiar properties.

He was in EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD.

Only 2 humans were said to have been there, and they died.

Might this not be a description of someone who is not human?

He "walked in the midst of the stones of fire."

This might mean magma or lava, or might not. Either way, strange

for a human, no matter what it means.

Finally, he's called a "cherub."(Twice.) Maybe I missed something, but I thought the

only "cherubs" are either angels or stylistic depictions OF angels.

Is this all about the literal King of Tyre? You make up your own mind;

I think it's clear there's more to this account than just a message to an overproud king.

(Ok, that's not everyting, but that's a beginning.)

Your quote is not what I said.

“So, you're saying in one place that we have ONE Creator-The Almighty,

who's "Elohim" in Genesis 1:1,

and in another place that Elohim means Spirit Angels, and THEY created man.

Oh, and WE'RE Elohim also“.

I never said Elohim was the creator in Genesis 1:1, and the original Hebrew does not say that either. Here is a more accurate translation from a more accurate Hebrew text and Greek text.

Jehovah declared the ending from the beginning.

"More accurate" defined, of course, in a practical sense as "it matches my theology."

(But hey, you can consider that "more accurate" if you want.

I checked and I disagree.)

I find the alternate translation you're working with-a variant rendering of the phrasing of Genesis 1:1-

to be a rather thin reed to use to weave an entire boat of a theology concerning different people

every time the term changes.

But that's your privilege. I won't be joining you on your journey.

OK. ANYONE who has seen this episode will get it from this quote:

"I see FOUR lights!"

George

"THERE ARE...FOUR LIGHTS!"

Technically, Chain of Command PART TWO,

but Raf still beat me to it.

What I meant was that just like Jesus Christ as the 'red thread' throughout the Bible, Lucifer, Satan is (for want of a better description) the 'loose thread' or 'black thread' throughout the Bible. As such, one has to look at Satan in the context of the whole Bible. No reference to 'illiteracy' et al was intended, my apologies in advance to Lindyhopper if 'how' I opened up may offend !!

You may well be right. However, you'll need to support your case.

Find a few examples that most clearly support it, and run through them for the studio audience.

You may find support, you may even convince a few people.

God knows I've learned things in discussions on this board, and reversed my opinions

based on them at times. Try to let the verses-and direct conclusions FROM the verses-

carry your posts, and they'll carry more weight.

And no, you don't have to find them this second-you may not have the time now either.

:)

....contradicts many of the clear verses that say that there are Gods, but one is our Creator, and is the Father of our Lord Jesus.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

'God' in that verse is 'Elohim'.

Here is a clue that can be verified by many Hebrew scriptures, Jehovah our Creator created Elohim as Spirit Angels, and as a shadow of Prophecy of his uniquely begotten Son, Elohim made man in their image, male and female, you are Elohim too.

So, you're saying in one place that we have ONE Creator-The Almighty,

who's "Elohim" in Genesis 1:1,

and in another place that Elohim means Spirit Angels, and THEY created man.

Oh, and WE'RE Elohim also.

So, "Elohim" SPECIFICALLY means God Himself in Genesis 1:1,

who created angels AND us,

and "Elohim" SPECIFICALLY means angels who created us,

and "Elohim" SPECIFICALLY means us.

"Elohim" seems to be a very flexible word!

===========

Or,

I can believe that the Bible was written primarily to enlighten the understanding

of the simple, and was never intended to be the tool of small cabals of people

off scrutinizing the precise placement of the orders of Greek and Hebrew

words, seeking for the difference between where the verb fits in the sentence,

or the differences, say, between "krima" and "krisis".

This would mean that "Elohim" can refer to God Almighty in one place completely,

and to a human or humans in another place with another connotation-

just as a human can be a judge, but God is THE JUDGE, and so on.

Sorry,

I can't get behind you on this system.

If you enjoy it, though, be my guest, have a blast.

Every minute that passes bring us closer to "the end times".

If Jesus is to be believed, no man knows the hour.

I like to say that this means the longest warning we could get would be 59 minutes,

since that would mean a man knew in LESS than an hour.

Now, soon, or far in the future, I am confident there WILL be such a time.

Others are confident there will not. Some aren't sure.

Somebody's right.

No matter how you slice it, none of the positions affect how I live my life.

Maybe I should just cut and paste the WHOLE Bible ?

Maybe you should find the verses that you believe support your position, post them,

then say "this is why I believe this verse supports my position..."

vpw dashed thru this stuff at high speed in pfal, and never supported his case.

(I've gone over the verses since then, and have engaged in dialogues concerning their

meanings, but vpw didn't.)

You have the chance to explain why YOU believe what you believe, and this is one

time you might have others on your side. This is NOT strengthened by starting with

an attitude of "well, my esteemed opponent is obviously illiterate, else he'd agree

with me..."

The Bible mentions at least the INITIAL 'goodliness' of Lucifer. (perfect in the day he was CREATED) Ezekiel 28:15 , yes I believe it is a reference to satan, no man is ever called a 'cherub'.

Satan would not have been 'perfect' if there was ANY residual evil in him initially.

The 'evil' had to develop like a cancer.

Lucifer could have stopped and repented at any time, I'm sure Gods' mercy would even have extended to him. (Even in the 'midst' of hell God is there) Psalm 139:8

Pride and envy got in the way. Ezekiel 28:17

LCM was given as an example by me because (as I said) on a human level, he was/is someone who went from making godly good decisions to PROGRESSIVELY evil and unrighteous decisions.

This was a start-but if you want to make a case from this, you'll need to put in a little time.

I'll get back to this when I HAVE the time this warrants, myself.

I think that God gave us brains he expects us to use.

To procreate when there are irreversible genetic factors at play or there is clearly no way that children can be supported by their parents with all the needful things for a child life is just wrong.

That's poor stewardship of the family.

It's no more different than buying farmland and ignoring 1/2 of it and letting it grow weeds.

(And not intentionally as a "nature reserve.) It's poor management.

I think it is important to remember that most of the birth control "rules" came out of eras that had far more agrarian societies. More children meant more hands to tend the fields, milk the cows, hunt, fish, fix the house the barn, etc. so large families were self supporting in the areas of food and shelter. The society we have today, especially in the industrialized parts of the world, lacks this advantage. Ten kids when you grow all your own food, do your own repairs, make what you need, sew your own clothes, and the doctor takes chickens in payment is far different than 10 kids that have to live in a house with a mortgage , food from the grocery, clothes form the mall, doctors visits at $150.00 a pop.

Let us not forget HIGH INFANT MORTALITY RATES.

In centuries of old, they had lots of kids, and some of them even survived childhood.

In modern, high-tech societies, it is always a surprise, a shock, and a blow when we hear

of children dying for any reason. It's not expected.

DMiller mentioned in another thread how much better he likes Firefox than Internet Explorer, and I've heard Firefox mentioned by others.

I am not that crazy about changing from one software or technology to another, but it sounds like there might be benefits to doing so in this case.

Keep Internet Explorer, but only use it when "needed" (Microsoft websites and a few other places.)

So my questions are: Why do you like it so much? (Be specific, please.) And, how big a pain is it to switch? (Keep in mind that we're not all computer geniuses!)

Why do I like it so much? The basic program is cleaner and leaner than any Internet Explorer.

Any time a problem is discovered, exploits are patched in an an average of

"just-under-a-day". IE, the average is "about-3-days", and THAT only since the US Federal Govt

announced that a delay of over a month meant they were going to recommend consumers switch OFF

of IE---then the month's delay was over in 18 hours!

So long as you follow the instructions, it is VERY EASY to "switch."

FF will import all your Bookmarks/Favourite Sites when you install, if you tell it to.

(And you can organize them better.)

FireFox "Extensions" (add-ons) can be added for just about anything you can imagine.

Like to increase the security of your browsing experience, like I do?

There's hundreds, if not thousands, of Extensions you can add to the thing to make

it safer. With one click, I can have a virus-scan done on any link before I even surf to it.

Want to skip redirects and jump straight to the target-site? There's an Extension for that too.

Want to always see the local IP of the site you're on? Etc. etc.

The only reason IE ever added a pop-up blocker was because people were saying

that FF with its DEFAULT pop-up blocker, and adding ONLY "AdBlock" made for a superior

browsing experience, with fewer ads.

And, yes, the option to use the Tabbed browsing and open a new page in a tab OR a new

window is very handy. (I use both for different things, and the tabs are in the basic FF program.)

I believe I can see the actor saying it, but the episode is escaping me...

Last year hubby Dave dressed like the High Plains Drifter in oversized brown duster, cowboy boots, hat, and riding gloves....

Seated behind the table, slunk down in an old chair, with both gloved hands flat on the table and head hanging down as if dead, sat hubby, the High Plains Drifter, deathly still. I was hiding in the yard to watch the reactions...

The whole thing was just really easy to setup, and the costume was just some of Daves normal clothes put on in the right combination, no makeup or anything. But boy, was it ever effective.

Kudos to him for being able to SIT STILL that long. I tried that once and got bored after the first 1/2 hour.

The SIMPLE concepts are often the most effective ones. One year I put that into practice, too.

I put up a HUGE sign that said "Beware of the werewolf", which was big enough to read from many steps

away, but small enough that you'd have to read it as you approached-unless you were smart enough to stop

your ENTIRE group and read. And who can stop a handful of kids when they see an obvious indicator free

candy is imminent?

As they approached the door, I sprang out of plain sight in a werewolf outfit.

How close I let them get, or how much I moved, depended on the size of the kids.

(The smallest, I stayed where I was. The teenagers were treated to a leaping werewolf as they got

CLOSE to him.) Naturally, NOBODY (3 people all night) saw me coming because they were all focused

on the sign and figured I'd spring out from behind the door, and they were safe until they rang the

doorbell. (The sign was to HIDE the werewolf, not WARN them. )

After I sprang out, I immediately said-sounding annoyed-

"Can't you read?

It SAYS *pointing* 'Beware of the werewolf!' " and handed out candy.

A lot of the parents and all of the teenagers got a big laugh out of that one.

Yeah, they WERE warned well in advance....

Well, the main laugh for the parents is some relief from the fairly monotonous door-to-door,

and the teenagers didn't have a real Halloween without ONE decent "boo" incident.

Frankly, the disappointment that year was the little effort spent on costumes by the families &

kids and stuff.

Does anyone remember The Coneheads on SNL? They would hand out beer and eggs on Halloween. I remember they called the eggs chicken embryos, but I forget what they called beer. Does anyone remember?

"We will cease dispensing the canned consumables. It is permissable to dispense fried chicken embryos?"

That's all THEY called the beer. (Besides "beer" when handing it out once.)

The other parents ("We LOVE your costumes!") called it "liquor" and

"six-packs of brewski."

I'm trying to come up with a scary costume to wear while giving out candy to the trick-or-treaters.

How about a white costume with rainbow trim and headband, and a big, big forehead?

(Will need a "bald" headpiece)

Some people still wake up sweating if that flashes in their dreams....

I LOVE Halloween but don't do much in the way of decorations. I do put a pumpkin in the window, though.

I'll dress up, put Vixen's Halloween bandana on her and we'll pass out candy to the kiddos who come by. Usually they say, "Hi, Vixen" before they say "trick or treat"

There are a lot of children on my street and in the surrounding neighborhoods so we always get a bunch of visitors. I just love it!! Especially the little ones who are so excited. It's just a great night for me since I don't have any kids of my own.

Well, you have a cute dog, in a costume, which adds cuteness.

And you give out candy.

Of course the kids are going to remember to stop by.

:)

Any thoughts to trying a different costume for her once in a while?

Just asking.

"Uncle" Harry gave some interesting biographical details that help

fill in some of the blanks, especially about the youngest son in

the family, vp.

page 77

quote:

"I didn't see much of him when he was growing up. When I was

seventeen, I started to work, was away from home most of the time.

That's near about when he started school. We all walked a mile to the

same red schoolhouse. We all had chores to do: milking, feeding the

cows, horses, hogs and sheep."

quote:

"When VP was in high school, Dad wanted him to take over the

farm later. You see, that was the tradition-that the youngest son take

over the farm, just as he had done. But VP emphatically said no.

He'd always liked to study and said he wanted to study for the

ministry.

Our Dad said 'You haven't even learned to work well on the farm.

You'll never make a good preacher.'

But VP used to practice by preaching to the trees." Uncle Harry

chuckles at the recollection. "He'd go out to the woods for hours.

Dad thought he was loafing, but I knew what was going on. He was

preaching to the trees."

Really, Harry? You admitted you didn't SEE him most of the time.

Why wasn't he doing his chores in sight and preaching to the

animals on the farm, or, you know, the other kids, people who might

actually hear something of use? Maybe Dad was on to something.

David was a good shepherd FIRST, then a good man of God....

Later, we'll see what vpw has to say about kids and their work

ethic.

pg-78, Harry again.

quote:

"Our mother encouraged Dad to send the boy to seminary. He was

always full of pep and vinegar. But he never hurt a soul. He did a few

boy's tricks, though, I guess. He played basketball, was always very

energetic. That drive and desire for an education VP had is inherited.

It came from his grandmother on our father's side. Even three years

before he was ordained, he was preaching. In 1941, when he headed the

church in Payne, Ohio, Dad and I went to hear his trial sermons.

That was his first church- Payne, Ohio."

I thought he'd been preaching for years, Harry-to the trees.

Also, Lamarckianism has been thoroughly discredited. You can not

inherit an interest in learning. You can ENCOURAGE it, but not pass it

along from birth. Finally, Dad seems to think vpw lacked drive, but

you said he DID, at least about preaching. Hm.

Maybe he had drive for preaching, but neglected his chores.

Harry spoke about their father's will.

quote:

In the transaction of the legal settlement of the estate in

January, 1957, VP and I paid cash to Reuben and Charles for their

shares. The we, VP and I, bypassed ownership and put the deed directly

in the name of The Way, Incorporated. We took the name from the book of

Acts where people who believed were called followers of 'that way.'

===============================

I just found out something interesting.

Just like he stole everything else, I think vpw stole the

"I was preaching to the trees" thing Uncle Harry believes happened

when he himself was far away and could not confirm this.

Billy Graham did this.

This is from Rick Warren's Ministry Toolbox:

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=7650

"He transferred in January of 1937 to Florida Bible Institute (now Trinity College) from which he graduated in 1940 with a bachelor of theology degree.

Graham's mother and younger brother Melvin had gone to visit him there and found him talking to the trees, Melvin Graham said.

"When we arrived, someone at the Bible Institute told us Billy was out in the woods practicing his preaching," he said. "We walked out into the woods and there he was doing an altar call to the trees." "

Seems like Billy Graham had EYEWITNESSES to this.

And Graham's story, I'd bet my life, was common in ecclesiastic circles by 1970,

so there was plenty of time for vpw to read this, and start a viral campaign that this

was HIS story as well.

As for Graham, the reason, I heard earlier today, was that he felt shy at the

pulpit and clumsy (my words), so he was out there PRACTICING.

============

Does anyone actually believe vpw really was preaching to the trees with no witnesses

rather than just slacking off on his chores?

Did the man ever have an original thought in his life?

How quickly you guys forget "your history."

September 1942 was "the 1942 promise", aka "the snow on the pumps".

October 3, 1942 was vpw's first radio broadcast. Supposedly, the name

"the way" was in the documentation of that from 1942.

However, Uncle Harry claimed they incorporated under "the way" in

1957, when they took control of the wierwille farm and bought out the

other 2 brothers.

Trelane -aka "The Squire of Gothos"

'It's time to come in now, Trelane'

'but I don't WANNA'

Correct!

Trelayne was the inspiration for Q in the series premiere of ST:TNG.

One of the novels later said that Trelayne was actually a Q child.

==========

I didn't recognize the officers from Temporal Investigations, George.

Meanwhile, it's hiway29's turn.

"But where's the sport in a simple hanging?"

"The sport?"

"Yes... the terror of murder; the suspense – the fun!"

What's that saying, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" or something like that?

IMO, I give thanks once the bird is in the hand not while it's still in the bush. I may be perfectly confident that I'm going to get those two birds, but until they're in my hand, I'm still just asking for them. Same thing with prayers, imo.

How many times in TWI did we "thank" God for something that didn't come to pass? Just as many, if not more, than when it did come to pass, most likely. I prefer to respectfully ask for things and enthusiastically be thankful for them after I actually receive/see it come to pass.

Right.

See, this is called "Argument by Selective Observation,"

or "Cherry-Picking",

or "counting the hits and ignoring the misses."

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic...html#selective#

"Argument By Selective Observation:

also called cherry picking, the enumeration of favorable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses. For example, a state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent about its serial killers. Or, the claim "Technology brings happiness". (Now, there's something with hits and misses.)

Casinos encourage this human tendency. There are bells and whistles to announce slot machine jackpots, but losing happens silently. This makes it much easier to think that the odds of winning are good. "

Saying "thanking God for stuff gets results" and ignoring all the times "thanking God for stuff DIDN'T get

results" is "counting the hits and forgetting the misses."

It's supposing this works as a principle when it utterly FAILS as a principle.

Who would count as trustworthy a safety system that saved your life "at least 1/2 the time"?

A principle or guiding rule has to work almost all the time,

and a supposed LAW has to work 100% of the time, no exceptions.

Further, anecdotes are hardly scientific.

Thanking God in advance for a good parking space, then finding a good parking space,

is hardly "confirmation" that the "thanking" did ANYTHING.

To those of you who use Thunderbird,

is there any way she can get all the functionality she wanted in an open-source

("I'll install it wherever I want") format?

I think most of us agree "OpenOffice" is at least the equal of "Office."

(And FireFox is at least the equal of IE.)

"We do not discuss it with outsiders."

That's "Trials and Tribble-ations",

DS9's tribute to "the Trouble with Tribbles."

"Do they still sing songs of the Great Tribble Hunt?"

Matthew 5:15-16.

"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

=========

Of course, the twi excuse is that the Gospels don't really count anymore.

Jesus' injunctions-which were written after Pentecost- were inapplicable

from the time they were written down!

So,

here's a quick look at an Epistle.

James 1:22-27.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Sounds like God really wants us to do stuff.