WordWolf

Interesting one, UH.

You're making it sound like "leadership" was pushing an accurate reflection of the Bible in doctrine and practice on this, and that the rank-and-file were messing up and doing things in an ungodly fashion, instead of believers doing godly things in spite of self-serving leaders. Please read up around the site. I think what some of the other Bible fans have written will surprise the heck out of you. Most of us were victims of a BRILLIANT conjob during vpw's lifetime, and a blatant manipulation after that.

I'm slowly trying to link the other thread to various sites or threads where various felonies were documented. I think the ones already there contain a few examples, I will try to do better with a bit more time.

Clicking this up so Bob can compare notes...

Very nice work, Bob. ========== However, I had one or two comments. Me, I thought 1942 was for the snow on the pumps. Was the radio program the same year? I'll need to check. One objection: You said twi never defined "more abundant life". Technically true. HOWEVER, the opening chapters of the Blue Book (TBTMS) give examples. vpw was rather specific that it was something you could see with your five senses, and was connected with material prosperity in EVERY example he gave. ======================= You asked about where vpw plagiarized his material from. I'll try to cover it very briefly. Part of it was lifted directly from EW Kenyon's books. More of it was Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and a few smaller works, including one on the holy spirit field. Also on the holy spirit field was JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit". In some cases, identical sentences have been located in parallel books. Almost everyone admits this is because vpw plagiarized them from the previous books. (One or two people think God told vpw to plagiarize them.) The class you are referring to was taught by BG Leonard. vpw photocopied the bulk of his pfal class-anything not taken from Stiles, Bullinger and Kenyon- from BG Leonard's class. This includes the bulk of the pfal Advanced class. vpw's "definitions" of the manifestations/"gifts" of the spirit are long-winded paraphrases of Leonards, changed only to avoid identical sentences. Leonard's publishing company: Canadian Christian Press. vpw's publishing company: American Christian Press. Leonard's class occasionally used imaginary, hypothetical people as examples. Their names were: Maggie Muggins (a figure in Canadian children's tv), Johnny Jumpup (a plant), and Henry Belocco. vpw's class occasionally used imaginary, hypothetical people as examples. Their names were: Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco. Others who have taken BG Leonard's courses can tell you more about what was ripped off. It seems that hearing he was ripped off so blatantly did not bless Leonard, who later added elaborate copyrights to his books. He was also slower to trust strangers, which means vpw probably hampered Leonard's efforts to move The Word. Then again, does this really surprise anyone? So long as vpw got his cut, fewer people were ok to receive blessings.

I hope that means you'd get a new harddrive with more memory and a faster microprocessor... If not, they're hosing you.

Welcome, Doorleven. I hope you like the coffee here. :)-->

In hindsight....the condescending attitude was rampant throughout twi's leadership. And, vpw was the worst of the worst. I was in a corps meeting where he threw a ....y fit for 20 minutes because some corps guy, with a low blood sugar problem, dozed off during vp's teaching. Why.....you'd have thought this guy stood up and flipped ole vpw the bird, or something?? And while we are on the subject of glory-grabbing......did ya ever notice how twi's bod courted the professionals, the athletes, the doctors and such? Seemed like twi was hot on the trail for new "pfal poster people." And......I always thought it quite ironic that after Bud Morgan's film highlighting the Stauhal family, they soon up and split out. Smart. Very smart people indeed. skyrider Why, Skyrider, You almost make it sound as if vpw was NOT some sort of spiritual super-man, who bestrode the pillars of hq and shook the heavens. You make it sound as though vpw was a guy who evaluated things solely by his five senses, and only evaluated THOSE when it suited his own purposes or his own ego.

Nice lyrics. Reminds me of "My name is Sir Lanc-e-lot, I love to sing and dance-a-lot...."

You should make sure your Spybot S & D is the latest version also-I think that's 1.3... "Immunization" is on Spybot. The icon menu has an icon in the middle that looks like a corner made of bricks. Activate that and thousands of the worst programs will never be allowed in your pc. The current AdAware also has a few widgets, like one to shut off Windows Messenger, which is ALWAYS a good idea. I run both once a day. If I'm in a hurry, I use the "smart scan", otherwise, I prefer the full system scan. Of course, if you don't have a competent firewall and antivirus running and updated, you have other problems... (Hint: nothing by Microsoft.)

Depends. When he was FIRST hit with cosmic rays, the Thing had that lumpy look. It was later that he went to a rocklike look. Um, the name that some people insist on calling that supposed Catwoman movie? *clears throat* "B1tchkitten". There, I said it. Happy now?

Rascal, 10/21/04, 3:34pm. Oldiesman's proximal response, (10/21/04, 3:37pm) "In the context of this thread, they are one in the same." It took an awful long time in this thread for Oldies to admit he was playing wordgames with the rest of us. He claimed a few pages ago that what Goey considers "core" is what Oldies considers "core". However, here we have an admission that what is "core" to Oldies, what is "The Word", is "wierwilles' teachings" and "twi's teachings". Except when they aren't, like when they want 10-15% of his income.

I thought this post had some good points, Danny, so forgive me for editing. I mostly added punctuation and some spaces, and fixed typos. Now more people can get more out of it.

I think there are two views of the motives behind the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwille (if you believe he did half of what he has been accused of): 1.) When he was good, he was very, very good; when he was bad, he was horrid. 2.) When he was good, he was doing it for his own selfish reasons. I have a problem with Viewpoint #1. For a man to be that cruel, uncaring, and selfish on the one hand, and yet to be as generous, caring, and unselfish as he portrayed himself to be, he would have to be psychotic. Are you arguing that he was? One minute he was one of the most loving and loved of God, the next he was motivated to evil deeds beyond the desires of most unbelievers, and back and forth, often on the same day? In Viewpoint #2, Wierwille spoke the truth at times, but only because he wanted to be _seen_ as an altruistic man. It gave him access to the things he wanted: power, adulation, privileges, sex. It also served to bolster Wierwille's need to be special. He could justify needing more than the average man, and of being above the average man, because of the burdens of his special calling of God. If people got born again or delivered, it only served to bolster his ego. Go ahead, oldies, be thankful that good things happened to you while you were in TWI. In fact, be very grateful that the things that happened to others did not happen to you. As for me, I will go with Catcup's response. Throw it all out, then go back if you want and examine the Bible point by point, and live by those things that make sense. I don't think God would mind. Shaz Shaz, are you suggesting the cognitive dissonance of trying to reconcile doing very godly, altruistic things at one hour, and committing criminal acts and sexual violations the next hour, would make it impossible, in the long run, to function in a healthy, godly fashion? I agree. Any psychologist worth his salt could tell anyone that, albeit in more technical, nonreligious terms.

Those who WANT deliverance, Catcup, can do this. Those who DON'T want deliverance, Catcup, won't do this. They'd rather just block out the more evil events, and pretend the rest of us didnt notice events that looked totally virtuous and innocent.

Granted, he still wants to say it was ok for vpw to be a part-time sinner and a part-time holder of a tremendous spiritual responsibility to God and for His people, but this was an admission that there were "secret evil things" and sexual transgressions". The next time these are denied, I can bring this back.

There's no doubt in my mind that Wierwille's evil works caused some folks to get hurt. ... There's no doubt in my mind that Wierwille's good works caused some folks to get help. ... I just wanted a record that Oldies admitted that vpw did "evil works." Even though it's such a bland term for rape molestation fraud greed hubris indulging vices on God's dime

Hm. I was about to e-mail you about having frequent problems accessing the forum.....

Oh, he's been checking in. Who do you think e-mailed WTH and told him to start posting again?

*snickers*

I counted them among the people who reached retirement age. I'm guesstimating as HIGH a retention rate as I can. You can guesstimate 75% retention every 4 years under exactly the same conditions I guesstimated 85% retention every 4 years. ================ Of course, your lowest figure (75%), if correct, would mean that the membership rate in one year would be cut by 1/4 its CURRENT rate every 4 years (roughly, every presidential election.)

Anyone ever hear this one used by someone who was run over by a truck or something? I know they used it on women in abusive relationships where their husband beat them, so long as the husband was in twi, and ESPECIALLY if he had "juice" in twi.

I'd say it approached a TIE. With such a mismatch between opponents- one man against a corporation with lawyers and things- that a TIE resulted is an UPSET. It's about the same as a game between a Little League Baseball team playing the NY Yankees in a fair match (nobody holding back) at Yankee Stadium (for charity, of course), and the game being won by the Yankees- after it went into OVERTIME and a TENTH and ELEVENTH inning. The next day, around every watercooler, everyone would be raving about how good that Little League team was, even the Yankees diehard fans. So, in English, the big, buff organization was unable to crush the one guy in its path. After trying its best to do that.

Well that is the part you got right Shaz. The reason you are struggling with the other parts (like a lot of people are) is because you haven't learned that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself. [WTF has taken it upon himself to analyze Shaz' entire life based on a few posts. Amazing. Shaz KNOWS she can't change other people. That's clear from previous posts of hers, or if you speak to her for a few minutes face-to-face. She has learned many lessons in life. ] The Japanese are aware of these three powers - the power of the sword, the power of the jewel, and the power of the mirror. The sword symbolizes the power of weapons (fighting). The jewel symbolizes the power of money. There is a degree of truth to the saying, "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules." The mirror symbolizes the power of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, according to Japanese legend is the most treasured of the three. But when it comes to life pushing you around, most people rely on one or both of the first two powers. But if they used the "power of the mirror" (the knowlege of self) they would ask, "Does this make sense?" All to often instead of trusting their inner wisdom most people go along with the crowd. They reason they do things is because everybody else does it. They conform rather than question. The reason they don't question is because the fear of being ostracised, the fear of standing out, the fear of criticism, the fear of ridicule, the fear of being an outcast. [ Technically true of many people. ] It is that same fear, the fear of ostracism that causes people to conform to the crowd and not question commonly accepted opinions or popular trends. I see it here all the time. _ [ Technically INcorrect of the majority of the posters here. To post here at all is to buck an establishment. Further, the amount of bickering seen on some relatively minor points demonstrates the rather individualistic nature of posters here, MOST of whom openly question authority ALL THE TIME. That was a necessary part of their growth after leaving twi, you see. Of course, limiting your exposure to a few threads defending vpw is HARDLY the best way to get an INFORMED OPINION on posters. We had brief arrivals with less strident agendas than you who learned a lot more in less time, because they did not limit themselves so. ] And it is the fear of being different that prevents most people from seeking new ways to solve their problems._ That is why the Japanese value the power of the mirror the most, for it is only when we humans look into the mirror do we find the truth. But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self. [ If you think that issuing warnings about evil is useless, you have NO purpose at the GSC. If YOU are correct, then NOBODY's life was EVER changed from the information offered here, NOBODY avoided twi because of a wealth of information here and all over the internet, warning about them. It would not surprise me to hear you believe this, but it's an untenable belief for most of us. That requires a very large "leap of faith". ] Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe". [Warning others about bad people is considered a necessary part of any HEALTHY society. That's why GOD instituted a practice where certain people are delegated to perform EXACTLY THAT FUNCTION. If you think it's such a futile exercise, take it to GOD ALMIGHTY and tell him that you find the appointment of PROPHETS to have been a wasteful exercise for well over 20 centuries, thru the entire Old and New Testament time periods. You HAVE been reading your Bible, right? There's prophets ALL OVER IT. ] The reason people say that is out of fear. ["How long halt you between two opinions? If the LORD is God, then follow Him, if Baal is God, then follow him." (I Kings 17.) According to you, Elijah the Tishbite must have been a coward. Interestingly enough, vpw taught that one of the most important traits FOR a prophet to have, one that is REQUIRED for prophets to have, is COURAGE. Prophets face up to the rest of the people as a WHOLE, and must disagree with them, telling them bad news. So, vpw would disagree with your statement about people who issue warnings. As you also see, I'm not afraid to learn from anything he taught, which disproves the blind labels you seek to slap on me. ] You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us. [ "Don't get involved with that Jim Jones guy. He's not a true servant of God. Don't get involved with that 'Heaven's Gate' group, they're not in line with God." For the people who heeded those warnings, they got to live. For the people who "bucked the crowd" and went to Jonestown or the Heaven's Gate compound, "standing out from the crowd" meant ingesting poison and dying. ] The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships. [ Some people are afraid of stepping out from behind the twi framework and seeing if God really does bless people more outside that framework. I agree that refusal to change, for reasons of fear, is NOT healthy and can waste a life.] [Of course, some respond to a soft word of reproof, and some to a thousand stripes. That is their own choice. ]

-or- (snip) (Scroll up the page for the full post.) As almost everyone here has no difficulty seeing, Goey's "baby" and Oldies' "baby" are NOT the same. The difference can be seen in ONE thing. Goey considers the SOURCE of QUALITY education on God's Word (THE BIBLE) to be insignificant. If he's learning QUALITY, he doesn't care about the source. If there's adulterations and error that reduce the efficacy of what he's being taught, or the teachers are utilizing a suspect framework designed from deceptive practices and hiding a secret agenda, Goey will split. Goey considers the minimum requirements set out in the BIBLE as to what a teacher of God is expected to say, do and teach as a REQUIREMENT, and a PREREQUISITE before the teacher opens his mouth. ============ Oldies, on the other hand, will view those same teachings as "suspect" or "inferior" if offered completely independently of a framework containing vpw, twi or pfal. That's his privilege, and he's free to be prejudiced against any other type of teaching all he wants. It is NOT, however, the same thing Goey believes. This is NOT news to Goey. This is NOT news to WordWolf. By now, this either IS or is NOT news to Oldiesman. If it IS news to Oldiesman, his posts and reading here have reflected a divorce from content and deliberations contained here. He's retained NOTHING of substance from years of posting. (Compare that to JustThinking, who arrived within the past year and has claimed considerable benefits from the things Oldies has not.) That means Oldiesman has been intellectually dishonest and disrespectful in most or all of his dealings here. If it is NOT news to Oldiesman, then Oldies knows full well there is a difference, and Oldies is engaging in deliberate deceptions and lies in his posts. What possible motive could there be for such a thing? Oh, there's possibilities like deceiving the new arrivals who come here for truth and help in healing, and things like that. There's other possibilities involving a psychoanalysis of Oldies worldview. Of course, they are possibilities, not a guarantee. They seem the more likely explanations, at any rate. =================== In comparing the posting history of Oldiesman and JustThinking (who didn't ask me to drag him or her in this and I apologize if this offends), I am reminded of a saying I heard once. It is said that, no matter how smooth the road, some lag behind, and no matter how stony the path, some march to the front. We all determine the rate at which we heal from our exposure to twi. Some determine a zero rate, or a negative rate. That is their right and privelege (in the US, anyway.) They do NOT have the right to determine that others not heal, however. =========== Intellectual dishonesty is NOT a good thing. Deliberate deception is even WORSE. ===========