WordWolf

http://www.snopes.com/college/homework/writing.asp --- Not all men are from Mars. lcm is from Uranus.

First of all, this belongs in "About The Way", or, possibly, "Doctrine". (Again.) Please keep the "Open" forum for subjects that have nothing to do with what other forums are specifically for. ======= I shall quote from the US Declaration of Independence, then explain the relevance. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience has shown, that mankind are more disposed ton suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariable the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." ------ Now, what does this have to do with this thread? Back to that in a minute. There's 2 different issues here, and neither should be confused with the other. There's the organization vpw started, and the doctrine vpw taught. Too many people here have too many horror stories-established with witnesses- as to evil and despicable acts committed in the name of the organization, and covered up by the organization, considering people disposable and seeing fit to ruin someone's life rather than admit some wrong was done to them. I trust you're not saying "why not return to the organization", but, if you really want to know, start a new thread asking that. The relevance of the Declaration? Well, that's simple. The passage in question speaks of what to do in the case of a "long train of abuses", and how people will endure some evil in order to retain "the ministry that taught you the Word", so to speak. ----- Now, as to the individual teachings and doctrines..... that's already been addressed, and answered. Few here just woke up one morning and trashed the books. (I think a few might have, after enduring despicable acts at the hands of vpw himself, but that's understandable.) This was a matter of learning that what you previously believed was WRONG, and changing your mind to reflect learning better. "God, I hope I change my mind as more accurate information comes to light for me." Further, the approach of twi, as all-or-nothing as it is, is flawed. A greater knowledge of Scriptures has value, but, to the exclusion of everything else, it hobbles the Christian at the same time. Knowledge puffs up, God's love builds up. Jesus did NOT come that we might have a greater number of verses and an indepth understanding of the Torah- he came that we might have Life.

Hm. On reflection, I think it WOULD be used primarily as a recruiting tool, if not in the first week. Nevermind.

Question. Out of the last 20-30 years, how much of that time-for you- was spent in twi, how much of that time was spent in twi offshoots/splinters, and how much of that time was spent completely away from them all, and spent among Christians who'd never "taken the class" or heard of it? This may surprise you, but those of us who've actually spent some time among other Christians have found that SOME of them are shining examples. Many of them may not be able to rattle off the Greek word for something, but they could teach the way corpse quite a lot about the love of God and the heart of God. It would be to your benefit to see what blessings God would give you by doing that rather than by locking yourself up with what one person, one group teaches. vpw certainly didn't restrict himself like that- his pfal class lifted large volumes of material from JE Stiles, EW Bullinger, EW Kenyon (the Studies in Abundant Living), and BG Leonard, down to the wording and the characters Maggie Muggins Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco, all of whom first appeared in BG Leonard's class which vpw sat thru. So, if it was good enough for HIM to expose himself to the work of other Christians, then, by golly, it should be good enough for you.

[WordWolf in boldface again.]

You are the wind beneath my wings, Radar.

I think some of it was contrived, and some of it was real. I say in my case-and in the case of MANY people-it was real. In fact, the very first time I sit'd and interpreted, the results were anything BUT what I expected, but, upon later reflection, what the people in that room needed to here right then.

Discussions of this subject almost always take place in "About the Way" or "Doctrinal". If you're discussing what they teach, it's "Doctrinal." If you're discussing the people or the influence twi had on them, it's "About the Way." (Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.) === Perhaps a better question would be, SHOULD there be a forum for that? I can argue either end of that. The current system seems to work. Would allowing side-by-side comparisons of them be of greater benefit? Would their current members try to turn it into a recruiting tool?

Depends on my goals. When trying to see if it delivers what it promises, usually, I evaluate it based on its internal testimony. When trying to see how it rates among Christian stuff, usually, I evaluate it base on external criteria. BTW, we have had many, many, MANY discussions on this subject, both general and specific. We have discussed how vpw claimed he got the thing, and how he actually got it. We discussed individual doctrines and keys taught in it. We discussed individual examples used in it. We've also come to differences of opinions on it. A minority think the whole thing is worthless, except as a sales device for an MLM (MultiLevel Marketing scheme, like Amway.) A tiny handful (at most) decided it replaced the Bible entirely. (Despite all the "this is a class on KEYS" stuff.) Most people fall somewhere closer to the middle of the spectrum, and think that it has merit in a small portion, medium portion, or in the majority of what it teaches. Take a look around. Many of the discussions predate this messageboard, some were back in the 1990s. Some of the comments are from people who felt their lives were hijacked. Some of the comments are quite insightful. Some of the comments are brilliant. (Mine are brilliant. --> ) Try and appreciate each on its own merits.

That's a summary of my experience. No rhyme or reason I can see, either. I've had it slow to a stop after midnite, or before dawn.

Sure. Just launder my funds into a little retirement account, and I'll go on sabbatical until we're done. (On sabbatical from my other gig-Archbishop of the First Global Church of the Werewolf.)

You'll read a couple of self-help books and give yourself a pep talk each morning, and that will be enough. And if it isn't enough, you'll spend the money and go to a counselor and you'll be grateful you did. You'll volunteer for Big Brothers, and go to the library to teach kids how to read. You'll serve lunch at the Soup Kitchen, and donate blood. You'll take up an instrument and join a rock band, an orchestra, a string ensemble. You'll write (but never finish) your first novel. You'll fall in love and raise kids and fall out of love and the kids will be grown and maybe you'll fall back in love. Or maybe not. You'll meet people. You'll make and lose friends, and the people you care about will get sick and die. You'll go on hikes and build a bird house and plant an herb garden and catch butterflies. You'll take up sky diving and white water rafting and meet up with the guys in the morning before work for a quick game of basketball at the middle school gym. Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life. You'll be just fine. This bore repeating.

Mike that's just a falsehood. You have done nothing but claim that PFAL replaces the Bible for a long, long time... puhleeze! Man, who do you think you're dealing with... a bunch of amnesiacs? Well, HE'S forgotten, so why should we prove to remember? HCW, Mike's adamantly refused to state his position in a direct fashion, relying on cryptic comments and implications, and surprise when none of us are impressed with his imagery and lack of substance shown. However, a brief summary which is "pretty close" to what Mike believes would include the following: "As of 1982, the key revelation, our True Bible, the Written Word of God, was now VPW's PFAL class collaterals. This was not an official position of TWI, but it WAS the position of God Almighty." other gems include "Recognizing that God appointed Dr as His spokesman is no moe idolatrous than recognizing that God also appointed Paul 2000 years ago to a similar status? Why is this hard for you to see?" Tom Strange has a short list of some other quotes. I think he's left out the following: "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." (So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand.) "Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once." "Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so." Re: studying the Bible to gain understanding, the technique to learn as outlined in pfal, Mike said "...your present approach has failed for all those who tried it for 2000 years." and "God's Word was LOST in the first century." He's also said the Bible -what everyone except Mike refers to as a Bible, and Mike is unable to convince us to rename because it does not suit him- is "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants". Then again, he's also called them "approximations". His position on the KJV, the critical texts, and anything called a Bible seems to change with his mood. Figured you'd like a quick update.

[WordWolf in boldface as usual.] [Having an objective party help him review his life so far and what he'll see there is NOT a goal for Mike. He might discover he needs to reinvent himself now. That's not something he wishes to face. Of course, many others have faced the same issues, and HAVE reinvented their lives. Of course, Mike's no more willing to face the prospect as are some of the Region Coordinators. Both Mike and them will just deal with things when they have no other choice. BTW, there are FREE, totally FREE, counseling services all over the country. So, price is an EXCUSE, and the real reason is something other than price.]

I haven't broken my neck scrutinizing the hagiographa and pseudiographa. However, going from cursory reads from different ones, I've eliminated a lot of them from consideration. Basically, I stay with the canon, and keep an asterisk mentally next to Enoch. Otherwise, I see more merit in reading some of the posts at the GSC than some of the books some people have claimed were divine. Just a quick look at the "gospels" alone can tell you that, other than the Big Four, they were all written over 100 years after all the eyewitnesses were dead, and they each "mysteriously" push doctrines of a particular group. Imagine that! For comedic value, "the Infancy Gospel of Thomas" is a favourite. Please remember that a name slapped on something does not mean that person WROTE the thing. I could write one tomorrow and throw, say, and slap the name "the Gospel of Thaddeus" on it....

Exactly! In MOST "Christian" organizations, running to a minister or whatever to tattle on your spouse would-initially or soon after with a repeat performance- result in YOU getting a lecture for not using HEALTHY methods to deal with conflict in your OWN marriage.

We agree this is now a Doctrinal thread. Galen accepted it becoming one. (He approved of its direction on the thread.) I say it's more sensible and easier for the moderators to just move this thread to "Doctrinal", so I'll suggest this.

Mike, page 11, 3/1/05, 2:15am eastern. I thought this was too extra-special a post to let people miss it. A) This is such a fantastic comment that it just HAS to be seen. 'You're unreliable as an authority as to whether a man's writings were directly from God because you were there when they were developed, written, edited and distributed, and were one of the main people directly involved in the process! Since you were there, your ability to speak as an eyewitness is invalidated because you saw it all, and were a direct participant! Instead, only someone who was completely divorced from the processes-several states away- can speak with authority on what happened where you were at but they weren't! Their lack of ability to recount the events, since they were not present for them, is the very reason they are qualified to speak as an eyewitness to what they didn't see!' You tell ME if you get something different from that passage. B) Presenting counterarguments, evidence, and eyewitness testimony that refutes Mike's doctrine is now known as "filibustering". All that pesky data just gets in the way. Apparently, also, Mike still objects to this being a DISCUSSION FORUM rather than a doctrinal platform for Mikean pfal. Also, (Bullinger) Mike suggested he might actually fund his own website or board, rather than leech Paw's bandwidth and threads at the GSC. We'll see. It's with no sense of surprise that Mike is shown considering himself a teacher, one of unique doctrines, as in "The Teacher". This has been expected for years around here, and predicted in various forms. C) Mike's still trying to compliment with one hand and insult with the other. Since HCW already caught him doing it, you think he'd not try it on HCW anymore....

Mike, 2/28/05, 12:14am. Wrong, Mike, I answered it, twice, and the second time, I went out of my way to make the answer crystal clear. WordWolf, 2/28/05, 5:37am. BTW, the original post lays out WHY this should be obvious to any reader of pfal, but I didn't feel the need to repeat it entirely here. It's cited by date and time, so it's easy to find. I didn't simply give a "yes/no" answer because the answer was far too deep for a simple "yes/no" answer to be CORRECT. Most people are aware that requiring "yes/no" answers to all questions is wrong, and cite the famous question "have you stopped beating your wife?" as an example of a question where the answer needs to be more detailed than "yes/no". But, I definitely answered your question in detail, without evasion, and in plain English. Further, your response was illustrative on its own.

This thread, page 9, 2/28/05, 1:47am Eastern. Mike: This thread, page 10, 2/28/05, 9:04pm, eastern. Mike: In the first post, dmiller has fear of Mike-just a smaller amount. In the second post, dmiller does not have a smaller amount of fear of Mike. To quote vpw: "Now, SOMEONE's got to be a liar!" Is it Mike, when he says others have fear of him and dmiller has less? (2/28/05, 1:47am) Or Is it Mike, when he says that's a "misreading" of what he said? (2/28/05, 9:04pm) They can't BOTH be right! Let the reader judge.

[WordWolf in boldface again...]

A) Fine. As soon as opportunity permits, I shall be posting quotes from books "written by vpw" where he uses the two terms interchangeably. With your supposed years "mastering" them, one would think these would be familiar to you. Well, apparently not. I also expect you will go out of your way to pretend the direct quotes from them do not run contrary to your special Mikean doctrine. (My favourite dodge was "wasn't that list of quotes great?" when I posted over a page contradicting you.) Everyone ELSE will be able to see how transparent the dodge will be, however. B) I was in a hurry when I answered your other question. So, I forgot there was another question you lobbed. Re: vpw's "final instructions to us"..... neither you nor I spent time with vpw in the final few weeks of his life. You're making the following assumptions: 1) the instructions you have are the very last instructions 2) "mastering" a book that claims to be a book of KEYS means treating it not as the KEYS to UNDERSTANDING the Bible, but as a REPLACEMENT for the Bible 3) vpw's "final instruction" to "master" was directly from God I understand you are unwilling, at this time, to see that you've piled assumption on top of assumption, and ANY of them being proven wrong (which has been done here before) means the whole contents are error. Everyone else, however, IS able to see the contrast when our posts can be seen side-by-side. 'When he told us to master The Word, he didn't mean to master the Bible.' Oh, that's rich. That's as good as something I heard someone say about the day of Pentecost, 'They weren't speaking in tongues-they were speaking in LANGUAGES.' === C) "Filibuster". Seems you lack an understanding of what a 'filibuster' is as well. Per Dictionary.com, "the use of obstructionist tactics, especially prolonged speechmaking, for the purpose of delaying legislative action". Per C-Span Congressional glossary, "the term used for an extended debate in the Senate which has the effect of preventing a vote." I suppose that you're misusing the term "filibuster" to refer to my extensive comments. Since you're known for lengthier posts than me (not counting the part of my posts that quote yours to provide the context more easily), that would be "the pot calling the kettle black." However, everyone ELSE notices that my posts remain mostly devoid of jargon and fast-talk, clear to the reader and easy to understand. Yours have been noted to contain more words, and often they contain obfuscations that inspire replies that ask you for a plainer version, or a direct refutation. So, I post shorter than you, with more content and in clearer English. If one of us "filibusters", it's not me. For someone who supposedly believes precise use of language is important, you demonstrate a distinct lack of concern for being precise yourself.

[WordWolf replies in boldface. ] [You choose to participate in discussions of your choice. If you choose too many, that is your choice. You can always choose to post on fewer. It's not fair of you to expect us to come to you for your views on the various threads. You don't get "elite status". ]

Ok, let's see, I responded to Mike's question as follows: Yes-I'll answer this one. IN PFAL, vpw stated outright something that is a mathematical truth, which is that things that are congruent to something else are congruent to each other. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. IN PFAL, vpw makes it clear (to everyone but Mike) that when he's talking about "the Bible" and when he's talking about "the Word of God", he's talking about the same thing. He makes this crystal clear, in fact. "The greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God." So, when he said "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing BUT the Word, people!" it is congruent to him saying "It's the Bible, the Bible, and nothing BUT the Bible, people!" or "It's God's Will, God's Will, and nothing BUT God's Will, people!" Do you really need me to post some examples from the Orange Book where he used them interchangeably, to refer to the Bible as God's Word or The Word? BTW, BEFORE you claim it, "The Word" is short for "The Word of God", which is another way of saying "God's Word". That was ALWAYS interchangeable in twi lingo- to say "The Word" was to say "God's Word", and vice versa. So, save yourself seeking a secret, elite, cabalistic meaning of the term, trying to outline the differences. Mike's response to that answer.... ==== "Please answer these two questions with a simple "yes" or "no". Did he ever say the following EXACT WORDS? "It's the Bible, it's the Bible...and nothing BUT the Bible!" Were the EXACT words in his final instructions to us to master the "Bible" or the "collateral readings?" ====== Now, Mike's insistence on a yes/no answer AFTER I ALREADY answered him means one of a few things. The possibilities are: A) Mike did not read my reply. B) Mike felt my reply was unclear and ambiguous. C) Mike felt I did not address the question sufficiently. D) Mike did not understand my reply. E) Mike did not hear the answer he wished to hear. So, then, I shall hope the answer was not "WordWolf was clear but Mike didn't like the answer" and will attempt to address the question once again. Mike, In pfal, the phrases "The Word of God" and "the Bible" were used interchangeably by its teacher. That means that its teacher considered the two interchangeable. Let me know if you need some quotes from the Orange Book on this-they ARE there, and if your "7 years of study" haven't revealed them, that's a little embarassing. An entire session of PFAL was named "The Greatest Secret in the World" and was directed specifically to have us think this very thing. The first "Listening with a Purpose" question for that session was "What is the greatest secret in the world today?" complete with a chart to shove this down our throats. When I sat in that session, usually, that answer was chanted by the group in harmony. I bet you've seen that happen, too. Know why? VPW went out of his way to enforce the idea that "The Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God" all over that session. ====== So, when he spoke of one, he spoke of the other. So, the many, many, many times he said "It's The Word, The Word, and nothing BUT The Word", based on his coverage in PFAL-the tapes, syllabus AND collaterals, what he said was functionally equivalent (based on rules ALSO stated in PFAL) to "It's the Bible, the Bible, and nothing BUT the Bible!" So, IF one were to discard the logic used IN PFAL, and the usages of terms as used IN PFAL, then one would say "no, that's not the same thing." If one is to claim that pfal has some intrinsic value and claim to accuracy, however, one is either forced to agree that this is functionally what he said, or that pfal does NOT have a claim to accuracy, or that the speaker is a hypocrite, discarding some contents and lauding others selectively. Mind you, the speaker also has the option of ignoring this and refusing to declare one position or another. In doing so, of course, one demonstrates to his audience that one is voluntarily assuming the office of hypocrite while attempting to draw attention away from it due to shame associated with the term. So, your choice how you respond from here.

I dont know if Dmiller is following this thread, so I'll chime in. Nobody cares how many threads you post in. They care how many threads you hijack and turn into commercials for your doctrine. Do I think it was wrong and evil for David to have sinned in each of the steps of the aforementioned incident? (Adultery, murder...) Absolutely. NO ONE has claimed to read anyone's mind here. You're the one who keeps invoking that strawman, and spinning that straw from your own fiction. They've pointed to behavior, and actions TAKEN and NOT TAKEN. Conclusions can be drawn from them. Nobody's claimed to read minds. Saying you "reject all such claims" makes you sound sooo pious-but nobody's made such claims. You might as well take a principled stand against claims the Apollo Moon Landings were faked-nobody here claimed they WERE. Is David's "transgression" (sins connected with the Bathsheba-Uriah incident) the same as a career involving molestation, rape and drugging different women of the congregation over a period of years? Someone already answered this one. They answered it here.