Oakspear

Gahagan ran for federal office...U.S. Senator from Maine

Yeah, but I didn't hit him

Oldies, Rand was an unapologetic atheist. Her points generally cannot be argued within the context of Christianity, or metaphysics of any kind. But let me make my point using your book:

In discussions that I have had, at Grease Spot Cafe, and in person, I have tried to discern why people have decided to be Christians. Some folks cite the bible, which in my opinion, just moves the question back a step: why believe the bible? My observation has been that it boils down to personal experience...for example: I did what the bible said and got the result I expected I prayed and got an answer I prayed and didn't get an answer, but I feel God's love (or sumpin') I talk to God and He talks back I have a personal relationship with Jesus you get the picture, I'm sure So, my point is, if it all comes down to a subjective experience, feelings, trust, faith, all that; why is that any more correct, or more superior than a Muslim's relationship with Allah, or a witch's metaphysical experiences, or a Hindu's worship of his pantheon? I'm not picking a fight, I just want to know. When I left TWI I remained a Christian for a short time, but just couldn't see any reason to pick Christianity over the host of other choices.

There is a John Galt Blvd. up in Omaha. The studios of a major FM radio station are located there; occassionally one of the morning guys will go off on a "Who Is John Galt?" rant. I haven't yet gotten to the point in the book where John Galt appears, but I did skip ahead and saw that he does :D--> ...and Oldiesman, you don't get the quote, if I may be so bold. Giving to one's "brothers" is slavery when it is under compulsion. Rand's characters can be giving, but resist when it is forced upon them.

Anthem is short by anyone's standards. The copy I had was 50% taken up by notes and revisions. Despite the investment of time, I've enjoyed The Fountainhead and We the Living and am currently slogging through Atlas Shrugged

Is Wierwille Road technically a street?

Unc' H: When I was "in" three years ago, there was no "firm" policy. When I was put on probation in 1999 they put my wife on probation with me, even though the "offenses" were purely mine. Two years later they threw me out and allowed her to stay. If I was an "innie", I wouldn't neccessarily want Donna out of TWI, but out of the "chalet"? Yes.

You can run, but you can't hide!

Good point Grizzy, I guess I saw similar stuff, but had forgotten. I helped in several moves where one room mate got booted and the other didn't.

Thanks all!

I was a senior in high school at the time, working part-time at a gas station. I was making $2.00 or $2.50 an hour for about twenty hours a week. $2600.00 per year.

The last ones I knew about in Nebraska were in existance the year after the WOW program ended, I think 1995-96. We had two in Lincoln and maybe one or two in Omaha. After that there were a few instances of two or three wayfers rooming together, but no Way Homes after that. Part of the reson around here was not enough single people to make a go of it.

I don't know about you, Oldies(I'd go to a TWI fellowship today if there was one conveniently close by)man, but I could seek out and enjoy "fellowship with people" without having to sit through a boring repetitive meeting. I could have lunch them, play soccer with them, go bowling with them, have a beer at the blues bar with them, get together so our kids could play together, or any number of things. I could and did all of these things, speaking the Word with them, as well as more earthly things like how I loathed the Cornhuskers. If you had to go to a meeting to get some "like-minded" human contact, well, you really ought to get out more :P--> And since your mentioned listeneing to a tape, did you understand that I live in Nebraska, and Kansas City is 3 1/2 hours drive away? Not much "fellowship" involved in leaving at 10:30 am, driving until 1:00 pm, changing clothes and wolfing down a McDonald's lunch, sitting in a meeting room for two hours, slurping down some tepid coffee, and hitting the road back to the land of Big Red by 8 pm so I could tuck my kids into bed.

Wait 'till the Weenie Roast dmiller, when ya get the privelege of meeting me in person ;)--> I couldn't resist...but I knew you wouldn't get offended

he didn't say that Schoenheit uttered those exact words, but that his brush off put him in mind of VPW's line from PFAL...and by the way, it's "pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall" ;)--> (Proverbs 16:18)

Did anybody ever hear anything that they could use or apply at a Way meeting? I'm not talking about your initial exposure, PFAL class, or first fellowship, or the first time you were "witnessed to". And I'm not suggesting that there wasn't anything useful or applicable in Way teachings. What I'm talking about is the week after week Twig fellowships. How many friggin' times did you hear the same basic thing taught? Or those drives to HQ or the home of the Region coordinator; anything new and exciting there? Or was it a rehash of what you had heard before? I remember the incredulous look on a "leader's" face when I told him that I didn't see the point of driving 3 1/2 hours one way to Kansas City to hear a teaching via phone hookup when I would be receiving the tape at my home a few days later. How about those times during classes when we had to "share what blessed us" about a teaching? I never did have the guts to say "Nope, nothing blessed me, not a thing, wished I'd stayed home"

oh boy...more of John Lynn's heart -->

Hey! How did we all get on the same side of this discussion? --> Youse guys is alright :D-->

George: When I got involved in TWI, there were very few Corps in our area, even though it was huge (Long Island, NY). None of the nine or ten Branch Leaders were in the Corps, the Area Coordinator and Limb Coordinator you hardly saw, so you just didn't hear all that much about Craig. To me, the TWI "celebrities" were Ralph D, Vince F (the worldwide outreach coordinator),John Lynn, Walter, Don Wierwille & Howard Allen. Those were the big shots that you saw all the time if you didn't spend any time at Emporia or HQ. It wasn't until my WOW year (1980-81) that I started hearing about Craig...from my interim Corps WOW family coordinator. When they announced in December 1980 (may be off a few months on the date) that Craig was to be the next Prez, I was pretty surprised. "Who the f*** is Craig Martindale?" Maybe you just ran in more elite circles than i did George :D-->

I can't speak for def, dmiller, but a miracle (according to most definitions) goes outside or beyond the normal rules of nature, so that a proof that uses five-senses criteria could not, by definition, prove that a miracle took place. Just for the record, I believe that miracles do take place, but like the agnostic that I am, I don't feel that I can define when they have taken place and under what circumstances. For example, let's take your example: I disagree that the absence of the medical problem indicates a miracle. It could be a remission, a spontaneous natural recovery, the effect of some treatment or environmental condition that was not known to have the indicated healing affect...or...it was a miracle: God did it. I do not believe, despite the large number of people who "know" that God did such-and-such, that you can every be 100% sure. That being said, I don't think it really matters all that much. Obviously you don't get a miracle whenever you think you need one, or get the answer to prayer that you wanted every time. No matter what your religous outlook, that's inarguable. I believe the key is to be thankful when the good stuff does come along, whether it's God, or New Age healing, or just the way our bodies were designed (or evolved).

For all of you who think we're too angry and bitter at Grease Spot: TWI still exists H*ll, I'm not angry enough

No George, you didn't misread him One of the things that I always thought ironic was that in many cases TWI gave us the tools to get out. I mean that they really did teach us keys to interpreting the bible, but anyone who honestly used them would find out the many inconsistancies and errors in TWI doctrine. Back then I didn't know or believe the worst of the abuses of Martindale and even Wierwille and was willing to stick with "the ministry that taught me the Word" even if some of it's leaders were abusive. It was a systematic "working the Word" as it applied to various TWI classes and books that opened my eyes to the house of cards that was TWI.

(It will be August 1st in an hour, but I need to go to bed before then) In August of 2001, Central Region Coordinator, Missouri-Nebraska Limb Coordinator, and Kansas City Branch Coordinator Tom H was coming to visit us in Lincoln, Nebraska. I thought it was odd, since he had just been here a few days earlier, and he was bringing his wife with him. Our fellowship coordinator called me at home to ask if I could stay afterwards, since Tom wanted to talk to me. (Aha! That's why he's here again!) Earlier I had a conversation with Tom H regarding some of my concerns about TWI doctrine, in particular several parts of the WayAP class. I had previously spoken by phone to John Reynolds, then Secretary-Treasurer of TWI,who had urged me to discuss my converns with Tom, since Tom "had worked the Word in preparation for teaching WayAP live. Tom's reply was that he didn't need to work the Word since the Trustees stood behind the class, and that was good enough for him. At the time I was posting on GS as Twyril, and the WayGB (possibly Tom H himself) had figured out that I was Twyril. I was confronted with printouts of posts that I had made, as well as information that I had shared by email with only a few individuals. I would not admit to be "Twyril" to them, but freely admitted to being convinced that much of what TWI was teaching was wrong. Just before the meeting ended I told my inquisitors that regarding the suspect doctrines "either someone is going to have to convince me that I am wrong, or the Trustees are going to have to change what they are teaching and promoting". They were aghast! Four days later I received a phone call from Tom H informing me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships since I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction." Tom H then began to give me instructions on how I was to communicate this information to my family (who were still welcome). I laughed and told him that he had abdicated any shred of authority he may have had over me; I hung up. Although it's been a rocky road, and my spouse didn't go with me, as Hope & John left together, things are so much better now. Thanks to all of you, in the forums & chat room, over the phone, by email, and in person, who have made the ride a little less bumpy.

I too will be there. I have volunteered to be the paper & plastic goods czar and am rooming with "The Cheery Dentist" Dr. Sudo