Oakspear

There is not one thing, not one, that I learned in TWI that I couldn't have learned somewhere else, "awesome" or not. That's not to say that there was not some things that I learned and applied. There were, just that TWI's claim to be the only place teaching the whole truth was not true.

Agreed...note the "winK'

...so, since, according to the title of this thread, you believe that the Red Sea crossing has been proved, and that if it can be proved it's not a miracle, according to your last post, then you don't believe that the Red Sea crossing was a miracle ;)-->

Nice commercial, John. At least you're honest about what you will and won't do. I understand that you don't have the time nor the inclination to read, let alone answer, a bunch of posts; but I don't have the desire, nor the inclination to get on the phone with you or any other ex-Way "leader" to listen to your spiel, because what I want is not your spin on how to get closer to God, or Jesus, or Joe Namath, nor do I seek an apology, since I can't think of any way in which you directly hurt me. (Other than a real boring afternoon sitting across from you in your Latham office watching you work --> and your pitiful attempts to mock the New York accent ;)-->) What I would like to know, not just from you, but from every ex-Way "leader" who left for "godly" or so-called biblical reasons, is: How did you miss this stuff when you where in? Why did the doctrinal errors slip under your radar while VP was still alive, but become oh-so-clear when Okie-boy was in charge? How long did you shovel the .... at us before you got out? Did you do your job in TWI knowing things were wrong? Oh well...you don't have time...congrats on your full life, chief. (btw...the name's Tom Joyce...since you like to know who you're dealin with :D-->)

I dunno Zix, Michael Clark Duncan played a believable Kingpin in DareDevil, but they didn't have to bleach his skin ;)-->

George: I guess it depends on whether you think that Martindale's "reign of terror" began when he became prez.

Happy 4th Anniversary Hope & John! John's letters to a Trustee were an inspiration for me to do the same, and set me on the path that resulted in me leaving TWI; his encouragement over the phone helped make the carp that followed a bit more bearable. Thanks guys! :D-->

...or an abacus

bump

Bible thumping word warrior smarty pants? What do you have against competance? Someone knows the bible, some can form an articulate sentence, and you somehow don't like that? Ignorance showing contempt for knowledge: too common these days, no more valid for all it's frequency.

Sky4it: The research paper did more than "state the obvious". It put in black and white an issue that TWI leaders had been avoiding for years. It refuted the scripture twisting and rationalizations that had been passed around.

MJ: I disagree with your assessment of the JS research paper on adultery. Most businesses are set up to do one thing: make money However TWI, whatever its true reasons for existing, was presented to people as a ministry, not merely a business. Despite Wierwille's, and later Martindale's, autocratic ways, most people thought of it as God's ministry, and therefore answerable to God through his Word. Most wayfers further thought of it as their ministry, and therefore fully competant to express their opinions or try to affect change. While I do not know JAL's or JS's mindsets, comparing them to an insubordinate employee in a for-profit business misses the point. Even with TWI paying the bills, JS and other were TWI, just as much as the trustees were.

He's... . . . . . . . . Simply Irresistable -->

ya got a point there Dorothy?

Of course Satori is "calling as it is" as well. Satori's "fish size" really has nothing to do with the relative validity of his statement.

Sometimes you'll hear a non-Christian (especially one who's never been involved in a church) ask "Saved from what?" In TWI we were taught that being "saved" means being "made whole", since that is what the Greek word translated "saved" allegedly means, alluding to receiving the spirit, which makes us a whole: body, soul & spirit. We were also taught that saved = born again = become a son of God. We were further taught that benefits of this was that we were "going to heaven and all hell can't stop us" and that we reaped the benefits of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, including access to physical and mental wholeness (by his stripes we were healed) We were further taught that we got saved by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead. Are there other versions in Christianity about what exactly "being saved" is? There are plenty of you GSers who have moved onto other Christian groups and churches. What say ye?

Chas: regarding the so-called stages of reproof - 1. Confront the individual. 2. If they don't change or have a second offence, confront them with someone in the household. 3. If they don't change or have a third offence, confront them with the household fellowship (twig). I often heard it taught this way, but very, very seldom saw it in action either, at least not when "leaders" were involved. Person-to-person it usually got resolved at stage 2. When a "leader" was "reproving" you at stage one, it was often just his opinion or interpretation of what the bible said. Stage two was supposed to be take a witness or two, which was usually the "leader's" spouse. When it came to stage three, it was never the whole fellowship, but a handpicked group who could be counted on to back up the "leader", no matter what he said. By this time, the "sin" was not only what was originally confronted, but "disobedience" as well. The only time I was ever brought "before the church" was when I was put on probation for six months. The decision had already been made, but we were dragged in front of our whole fellowship to be made an example of.

Here's the link: http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=5301 Why? Because you don't like it? This thread is not "silly" in the sense that "Why I Reject Alice" and other like threads are, but covers an issue that the poster wants to make public. Oh, like thoughts about GS weren't posted at JWO. Where's your vaunted respect for free speech? Maybe because the folks at JWO, ex-GSers and ex-JW's alike, aren't really interested in a discussion, but in indiscriminate cussing and name-calling. Take your spoon and stir your .... somewhere else

It's not rocket science, but it's not theology either :P--> Your theory, Rachel, might be correct if God was reproducing like a human or animal does. God didn't have sex with Mary in order to produce a God-man hybrid. Something else to keep in mind: God is spirit, so, according to your "after his seed" logic, then Jesus shouild be spirit too, right? Or at least half spirit, since Mary was human. But isn't it true that he did not receive the spirit until his 30th year?

The Arthur that we see in movies, books, etc is fictional, but may have been loosely based on an historical character. There's lots of theories, but apparently there was a warrior in the years just after Rome left Britain who united the various Celtic British tribes as a war leader in the effort to drive out the Saxons. The story changed with each retelling.

dmiller: I'm almost up to 3000 myself, and I'm not leaving either. This was a place that I could come to when I was at the lowest point of my life. A place where I could hammer out where I stood on God and religion and my old cult. There's always going to be folks who want to stir up the carp, who want to attack others, or who just plain insist on being stupid. Welcome to life. I've had the privelege of meeting almost thirty of you guys and gals over the last several years, and have made some good friends. I was sorry to see some people leave due to the recent cyber-brawling, I'll miss them here. I've registered and post some over at Raf's place, but it's a Christian forum, and I'll never really be able to give my honest, unvarnished opinion about some things over there. I'm sorry to see some GSers trashing other GSers at another site. But anyway, I'm sticking it out over here with dmiller!

Not me :D-->

Thanks, I'm flying next Saturday :(-->

I was on Bless Patrol at a couple of ROA's. I stopped a car with Howard Allen in the back seat. We had been instructed that only cars with passes of certain colors could go down the road I was "guarding". A black limo with darkened windows pulled up, with NO PASS. The driver, who spoke with a German (or maybe Dutch) accent insisted that he didn't need a pass, wasn't going to show me a pass, and that didn't I know that he was driving The Way's only limo? He chose not to mention that he had Howard Allen in the back. As I argued with Fritz, my partner blocked the path of the car with her body...until Howard Allen rolled down the back window, smiled, and said that they forgot their pass, could they please go in, he was very sorry about Fritz :D--> My3cents: According to Karl Kahler in The Cult that Snapped the law was changed (due in part to the Way having its own Police) and they had to downgrade to a safety patrol.

Did you wake up and see Bobby Ewing in your shower?