Oakspear

A coupla' observations: John J does a pretty good job of putting TWI beliefs and teachings out there, but doesn't always get it 100% right, and he has a definite "orthodox" Christian POV. However I think that he does an excellent job of presenting the main points. On the subject of Wierwille promoting himself as the sole representative of God on earth and the only purveyer of the truth, it's my opinion that Wierwille was not always consistant in how he presented himself. Those contradictions are presented elsewhere in this thread. We can split hairs and argue over shades of meaning all day, but does anyone really believe that once TWI doctrine was solidified with the filming of PFAL TWI was presented by Wierwille and his supporters as anything less than "the Word as it hadn't been taught since the First Century"? Sure people were brought in to talk to the Corps and at Sunday Services, but were they brought in because Wierwille humbly saw that someone knew more than he did and was publically correcting his error? Or just bringing in another voice to substantiate his own teachings? I think that if we accept Mr. & Mrs. Wierwille's accounts of the early days of bringing in speakers, Wierwille's travelling to hear different teachers, reading a variety of opinions etc, than at one time he was upfront about not knowing it "all", and was a seeker. However at some point, probably either when PFAL was filmed or when he first started seeing numerical growth, there was no place available that taught the truth like TWI (i.e. Wierwille) did. If there was other "truth" out there, it was irrelevant, because whatever was out there, he had it too, and more. So, "the most" truth, and all the other weasel words are just a smokescreen to obfuscate the point that Wierwille was claiming to be the "Teacher" par excellance, and that his "ministry" was the only place to get the complete package of truth.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was using your quote (in agreement with it) to engage other postesr who disagreed with it. Do you have a ministry that I can send some money to?

Socks' point bears repeating IMHO: IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?

WD: Perhaps his loyalty was debatable, his committment, but not his affiliation. John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory. By the 70's, when most of us got involved. TWI was, according to Wierwille, the only show in town.

Holy crap...let me sharpen my razor so I can get these hairs split a little better. the MOST truth = no one had any more of the truth than he did. Here's how I'm using the terms "whole truth" and "whole package of truth": I agree that it would be "ridiculous" to say that anyone could claim to have the WHOLE truth if "whole truth" was defined as, say, everything that God knew, or some other equally unattainable (by man) standard. Do you really think that that's what I'm saying? Wierwille promoted his teachings as having been taught to him by God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century, and that no one else was "accurate" on every one of his major points. Wierwille was very clear that getting your doctrine from other denominations would guarantee that you would be taught error in one or more categories.

You're right, the staement that you quoted does not, but this one does:"I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth. I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. "

Oldies, it appears to me that you are splitting hairs. I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth. I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. Intentional or not this is a strawman argument and a logical fallacy.

I don't think that Wierwille never acknowledged that he could learn from others. I think it's clear that he did seek out others' teachings in his early days. However, there came a point when that stopped. Was it when he left the church? When he filmed PFAL? When the money started rolling in? I don't know, but most of us were told that we were involved in a TWI where "the Word was taught like it hadn't been since the First Century".

In later years Wierwille said the gas pump incident took place in 1942. The Spiritual 40 Club took place somewhere between then and when he left his denomination.

This was so long ago and with no notes, but I don't remember that. In fact I do remember wondering just who the heck had left and who we should be avoiding.

The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor, not when he was fronting TWI.

happy B'day to my southern neighbor

Happy Birthday to my Weenie Roast roommate...did that sound weird? <_<

Happy Birthday LU...first GSer that I met face-to-face

I heard both sets of tapes and was never Way Corps. It's times like these when I wished I'd have kept my notes. The main subjects that I recall where: Explanation of why the word "Patriarch" did not accurately describe Wierwille Justification for the "loyalty letters" and firings Railing on people who left and accusing the former leaders of stealing people and abundant sharing Claims that PFAL could not legally be run outside of TWI List of deaths and suicides of "copouts" List of devil-spirits supposedly posessing Chris Geer Long exposition on the Book of Job and miserable comforters There's probably more, but that's what I can dredge out of my memory

IIRC I posted my full name on the "My Story" forum a few years ago, and occassionally I mention my name, but I'm comfortable using "Oakspear". In fact, in my wedding business I used the name Th0mas 0akspear J0yce (it's a code to snag the occassional pagan couple ) but my full name is Th0mas James J0yce, Jr. (Mom isn't too happy with my using "Oakspear" as a middle name. Grease Spotters tend to call me oakspear or Oak, even when they knowmy name.

This person was a very vocal concerning the state of affairs in the way, Before he left he stated his mission was to counter the claims presented. He came back a different person. Yes I do believe he was brainwashed or spiritually influenced. And yes I decided that it was not worth the price to satisfy my curiosity. When I sat through these tapes I was on the fence. I had been inactive in TWI fellowships for several years and came back to TWI just before these tapes became available (although I understand that Way Corps had heard them earlier). When I was done with these tapes I was firmly in the Martindale camp, so maybe there is something to it being brainwashing.

I am talking about the Leadership Tapes. WD brought up a point about them that I find interesting: that they were used as a brainwashing tool for those who were against Martindale. I'm interested in his opinion on this.

Again I think we disagree here Oldies. CSBP was written before the TWI heyday, possibly when Wierwille was still involved in the E&R Church. The whole time that I was involved 1978-2001 it was abundantly clear that tithing to groups outside TWI was not considered "laying it at the apostles' feet". TWI teachings involved much more than what was in his pamphlets and books. If you believed that Wierwille was okay with TWI people tithing to other organizations, I have no choice but to accept that, but that wasn't what I experienced.

That's what you called it. What do you mean by this? Who do you think was the force behind it?

So TWI was capable of and practiced brainwashing. In your opinion.

I disagree. The other Trustees were rubber stamp Trustees IMHO and never would have voted against Wierwille, so the "Trustees" controlling the cash equalled Wierwille controlling the cash. And who determined what constituted "the outreach of the Word of God"? Wierwille did. I wouldn't suggest that your heart for what the money was for was tainted, but i do suggest that Wierwille's was. Like the WOWs living on mac & cheese but still giving 10%. Who didn't benefit were the many "slaves" who were not apid for their work. Wierwille taught that it was okay to tithe/abundantly share to groups other than TWI? Where was this?

I recall several folks who were attending fellowships that not affiliated with TWI attending some of these sessions. I don't recall if any rejoined the fold. Do you believe that this person was literally brainwashed? Were you concerned that you might be brainwashed into changing your opinion against your will?

Was this money that "went to the branch" abundant sharing? Or was it a separate fund? I was under the impression that any money from abundant sharing, class fees, sales of bookstore materials etc was to go directly to New Knoxville. I believe that this policy went into effect in the very early 70's.