Oakspear

I don't remember names other than Geer, Townsend and Caballero (the latter two having been on the BOT for a while) being mentioned, but it's been almost 18 years since I've heard them. Martindale made this all about one man: Geer. I had been away from active participation for several years when Wierwille died, the PoP hit the fan etc. When I came back the only side of the story that I heard was the official Martindale side. I did not know about the "loyalty" letter, the letter from the Lynns, Dubofsky and the others whose names I can't recall, Finnegan & the whole state of New York and all the others.

τάράσσω (tarassō) was translated "trouble" in the KJV Strong's Definition is: 1. to agitate, trouble (a thing, by the movement of its parts to and fro) 2. to cause one inward commotion, take away his calmness of mind, disturb his equanimity 3. to disquiet, make restless 4. to stir up 5. to trouble 6 1. to strike one's spirit with fear and dread 7. to render anxious or distressed 8. to perplex the mind of one by suggesting scruples or doubts the second set of tapes was about the "miserable comforters" of Job and became in an expanded form the Defeating the Adversary class

RG: I definitely understand that some folks weren't faking it and had genuine love for those around them. The point of my initial post was that although the fakery was rampant, no one is seriously saying that those who claim real camraderie and love didn't really happen. In other words, I haven't seen anyone challneging anyone else's personal experience.

I think the perception that there are a lot of moderators might be valid if they were all full-time, moderating 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (with a full day off from work and witnessing ) and regularly patrolled all the forums. I doubt any of them are putting a tremendous amount of time into it. In fact, it seems like most of the edits, even with the influx of new mods, comes from just two or three. Even if there are as many as 8 moderators, they would have to be "on duty" 3 hours every day, 7 days a week in order for there to be "full" coverage. I seriously doubt that's happening.

What is the right number of moderators? You know, a number that isn't ridiculous.

I saw the movie at "twig" in the 90's in pseudo-camraderie with all the people who pretended to love me <_<

Interesting that the segment on the Devil masquerading as a lesbian isn't in the new version of WayAP. I'd bet that they never came out and said that this isn't accurate, just pretended that it never existed, like they do with Martindale. "The Tithe Doth Still Provide" and the other article on Abundant Sharing that are appendixes were written by Martindale, but it does not appear that he is credited.

In another thread a poster said In an effort not to derail the Jonny Lingo love fest in that thread, I ask, Who says that what anyone experienced is fake? I've seen many folks minimize the "love and camraderie", or state that it did not outweigh the bad things, but I can't think of anyone who said that another person's experiences were "fake". In my experience, some of it did turn out to be fake, because I was dropped like a hot potato by all these people who "loved" me when I was kicked out. But does anyone want to step up and say that perceptions of love and camraderie that others felt was "fake"?

I think you misunderstood, or perhaps I wasn't clear: if what TWI (The Ministry) said differed from what The Lord said, they went with what "The Ministry" said, reinterpreting what The Lord said so that it would appear to agree with what the ministry said. Obviously, from a Christian perspective, the Lord doesn't lose.

Well doojable, I'll discuss "truth" with you. I think that belief that there is one "TRUTH" is a feature of so many religious and other belief systems, many uncultlike IMHO, that it doesn't really define waybrain.

Looks on topic to me, dooj, you were discussing the reason why you believed that certain attitudes defined waybrain, WhiteDove was disagreeing.

Buffalo Bills...New York's only pro football team

I just reviewed this thread and only found two posters who used the word "mindless", Groucho & myself. Actually I used the terms unthinkingly and reflexively, but "mindless" is not far off from what I meant.However neither of us said that TWI doctrine or those who believed TWI doctrine were mindless, or mindlessly believed it, but that Waybrain described those who did mindlessly, unthinkingly, reflexively believe it. Saying that TWI doctrines or beliefs were being called mindless is the logical fallacy of the strawman argument; i.e. arguing against a position that the other side is not actually taking.

I don't believe that believing what TWI taught necessarily indicates Waybrain. After all, many people here, after thoughtful and/or prayerful consideration have come to similar conclusions on some issues as Wierwille did. Surely we don't believe that every non-Trinitarian Christian, or Christian who believes that the dead are not consciously alive is suffering from Waybrain, do we? Sure Waybrain is a made-up word. All words are at one time or another. Think about all the technical terms, industry jargon, government-speak, etc that have been coined in the last 20-30 years. Apparently we don't all agree with what Waybrain is. My definition is the condition where one unthinkingly and reflexively thinks or says or thinks TWI dogma. Sometimes Waybrain is obvious, more often it is not. If someone voulteers to string the chairs while setting up for a PTA meeting, did they think that through, deciding after careful consideration that it was the most efficient way to set up the room, or did it float up to the forebrain unbidden due to years of indoctrination setting up rooms? The situations in which it is easier to correctly identify Waybrain is when a doctrinal point is questioned and the response is a quote from PFAL or Wierwille that doesn't really answer the question.

I just noticed the new title: and no VPs or Secetary-Treasurer either.

Some of these might be common to Christianity in general, or at least extremely dogmatic versions of Christianity (and other religions too for that matter. ) A grand sense of spiritual superiority (maybe political parties too) One verse answers to life. Immediate acquiescence to anyone in authority, regardless of the rightness or wrongness of their request. A heightened sense of entitlement stemming from supposed higher knowledge of the Bible. A willingness to argue that Granola really does taste better with apple juice instead of milk. (Now that one's just funny ) In my opinion, Waybrain is characterized by an unthinking reflex to do something, or say something only because it was learned in TWI, without having independently verified whether somethiong was indeed true. An example of Waybrain in myself is that I consistantly arrive 10 - 15 minutes early for things, not because I think it's a good idea, (and it often isa good idea) but because I've had it drilled into me for several decades.

TWI, despite its slogans about studying "The Word", has always been about putting the organization and its leaders first. In any situation where a wayfer believes that what "The Lord" says is different than what TWI leadership says, "The Lord" loses.

In theory a "ministry" could be served simultaneously with The Lord, if the goals and actions of "the ministry" were identical with those of The Lord. I believe that "the ministry" attempted to define what serving the Lord meant in terms of what was best for "the ministry", putting "the ministry" first and The Lord second.

God can't use synonyms? Who says that God "would have" done what you say? Not saying these three words, or even soul and spirit are synonymous, but it seems to me terms like "the spirit of man" refers to what we usually refer to as soul. Not arguing the doctrinal point so much as the logic behind your example.

People can & do choose, but in my opinion, that's not the issue. The way I see it, the problem is that men & women claiming to be Christian leaders demanded that their followers overrule scripture. Whether anyone actually obeyed them is beside the point. Another issue is that seldom was it that clear cut. I can't remember any time when a leader overtly told anyone to do anything that contradicted the bible. Can you imagine the conversation? Leader: Joe Believer, the bible says XYZ, I want you to ignore that, because I know more than God, so please do ABC, which is in direct opposition to XYZ. It was usually more like: Leader: Joe Believer, I know that you think that they bible says XYZ, but your thinking is faulty, it really means ABC...look, it says so in the Blue Book, and check out this Greek word here, and 'Y' is a forgery by those Trinitarians. So if you really want to do the Word you'll abandon your rebellious thinking and do ABC.

Good points Lifted. If you know someone is lying, that's one thing, if you don't know either way, that's another.

Now that is a great story! I'll bet she tells that story for years

Good one

I went back and looked at the Christian Soldiers thread that this was supposed to be a spinoff of. Jeff makes the point that "leadership" should never have been even asking people to obey man rather than God, he doesn't even address whether anyone was forced to do anything, or whether anyone actually took actions that they knew were against God's will. Once again the strawman is thrown out so it can be shot down.