OldSkool

Makes wierwille sound increibly inept on all counts. Why didnt the MOGFODAT heal his buddy? Drinking buddy at that. Howard is one of the biggest creeps out there. Ive heard from countless people where Howard had made crude remarks to married women, sexually harassing them. He was into adultery the same as wierwille and it was common knowledge back in 2008 when I was still at HQ. But wierwille loved talking about how special his believing was, and how much he labored for us all and how his believing basically held the world together from descending into chaos. Bullshonta at its finest.

Man, those yokels talked more about "the adversary" at times than they did God. Especially during martindale's reign of terror. God was small in comparison to they way they used to talk about the adversary and everything we had to do to not get caught by that guy. As for wierwille "operating" healing and all that...yah...fat chance. I dont think any of the directors actually believe what they teach. I never saw not one miracoulous healing when I was at the way international. When I used to ask the old timers about how things used to be they all said the same things: Back in Dr wierwilles day miracales were plentous. Yet, not one person ever had anything verifiable just a lot of talk and hear say.

Or...not only I'd the analogy off base but the analogy is attempting to justify lies and make believe.

Yes they were. Watching the entire time, tying us in knots with fear of a negative confession. I am so thankful I am free of that garbage..knowing that out thoughts dont somehow influence reality of their own power is deliverance.

No, its no consolation what that false prophet said. Master his materials...what a waste of life.

I dotn try to sort out their errors. I use scripture to avoid it all together.

It helps to be able to identify error so one doesnt waste a long trip riding shotgun with error driving. But go straight around the curve and take the first right on the left.

Pick an analogy based in reality

So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. So, Mike, does Jesus also open the doors to let the enemy in to harm God's people?

Theres seldom a miracle in TWI because its an abusive cult loaded with doctrinal error. That'll do it.

Pure, speculative, conjecture. And Im not expecting you to exhume the apostle Paul, but my Lord, do you ever just read what's written without reading PFLAP into scripture? You have no idea what happened in the first century, except a few verses stating that people had turned away from Paul. And he was a convict so that shouldve been expected, no? The problem you have with that bullshonta 1942 promise is you guys act like Christianity stalled from those few verses that state folks had turned away from Paul and then nothin much of note happened for a couple thousand years until wierwille came along and straightened it all out. That's nuts.

Now you are asking the impossible because how can anyone find verses which contradict a concept that's not in scripture to begin with. You put the double door analogy in there to support your point of view in holding up wierwilles doctrines and pflap.

I mean, your POV is fine and it's not that Im in disagreement. Ive seen a lot from God and my life is a testimony and it would be easy enough to just plant my banner on the other side of Raf's position, and on one hand there would be nothing wrong with that (Im not even saying youve done that). But then we just wind up in opposite camps when we could try to understand how and why each other's positions developed. I do agree that is important not to give up on answers to the supernatural, etc. That grain of mustard seed kind of faith is what eventually kindled a relationship with Jesus Christ that I had been missing my entire life. However, I do fully understand how one get's fooled by false doctrines and Church hurt to the point of saying it's all Bologna. Empathy can rule the day because it's by understanding how someone arrives at the place they currently "reside" that allows me to be touched by their feelings and position(s). Yes, I want Raf and anyone else out there to have Jesus Christ in their lives as their Lord and these sort of issues come into focus.

Nah, it's not even cut and dried like that. By all accounts until the ressurection of Jesus Christ it wouldve appeared that satan had indeed won the war. For the most part in the Old Testament he carried what appeared to be the upper hand. I mean at times it came down to a very thin margin between God and satans victory. Our point of view is vastly different from what's found in the Old Testament. Its not now, and never had been some formulaic functioning of God limiting himself for the benefit of the devil and then allowing satan equal access. There is nothing anywhere that supports that point of view, except all the letting loose we grew accustomed to in the way international. We were taught to make the Bible fit around what wierwille insisted was the truth. We were lied to, God nor his Word bends to wierwille.

Double doors? No, your just picking verses that show that there is a spiritual war raging between God and satan. Not only that but you are reading a concept into scripture where said concept does not exist: double doors.

Raf, I gotta say you have a great point in comparing The Dragon in my Garage in relation to medern day Churchianity, such as the way international. The way Sagan describes those moved goal posts in his anaolgy is quite apt. There are many groups guilty of moving the goal (Christian or otherwise) and it's been my experience that Christian cults tend to excel at this maneuver. I can empathisize with how you have come to your position. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage#Overview_of_the_analogy

little more info: https://news.yahoo.com/neo-nazi-curriculum-condemned-ohio-130100539.html

I think you may be assuming a lot of those that came before that may or may not be true. For example: miracles ... How do we know they didn't verify miracles? And find them miraculous? I think we assume that people in the past tended to be less...less learned..less intelligent...yet modern day technology still cannot replicate the pyramids, or even the architecture of some of our more archaic buildings. Our ancestors were advanced in ways we no longer comprehend. I don't buy history's view that everybody before the last few decades were primitive and ignorant. Fact of the matter is we assume what they called miracles weren't verifiable as miracles from our modern point of view, but at best it's conjecture because none us were actually there. Who is to say that man hasn't become less learned and capable over the past few centuries even. History is only reliable to a degree because it's biased in favor of which ever culture was victorious so they could write history.

I followed all the links because I wanted to see an actual sample of the curriculum to see what was neoNazi about it. I'm gonna check it out when I'm home. There's a rabbit hole to be followed I'm not sure what I'll find though...part of the fun I guess.

Maybe I missed some details but it seems the article was calling for more oversight and not just oversight. There is oversight as it is now, but the jack@$$ neo-nazis sidestepped requirements. So enforce the requirements on those who sidestep instead of adding more layers on those who comply already, which is the vast majority.

Ive yet to see government regulation accomplish much in this regard, Im thinking deal with the outliers and the fact that they didnt register with the superintendant. Before I take this off topic further...I guess my point is you wont stop neo-nazi parents from raising neo-nazi kids and making it more difficult on homeshoolers who actually abide by the rules won't stop those who intend to break the rules.

In spite of these idiots, and in spite of the fact that I don't homeshchool, I do know many parents who home-school and have had a great experience, not to mention they are closer with their kids than they have ever been.

Unfortunately, mainstream Christianity tends to go deep with the bullshonta. Whether, its the fake megachurches that basically have actors and performers on stage to the fundmentalist ideals and attitudes that are so freaking narrow minded and out to lunch that I just cant. So you make a valid point that the community of faith tends to play whack-a-mole with how God can pop-up here and there and the rest you have to take by blind faith. That's hucksterism 101. So, perhaps its more of a blend. On one hand you have ridicalousness in the Churches with fake miracles and various non-sensical doctrines and then you have the straigh secular side of things that allows nothing spititual because spirit cannot be physically verified. I mean, really, theres no easy pat answer to any of this and Im not trying to give one. For me, a grain of mustard seed type faith made the difference.

Agreed. My boy is 16 and by all accounts a good, level headed teenager. Im very very fortunate to have a child that is academically inclined and who actually really wants to do whats right. While, I was accelerated gifted/advanced learning and all that, I was nothing like him, so thankfully there have been a few cycles broken in his life that tend to run in my family. He's going to a Waldorf school which has been a really good fit for him and they have small class sizes and it's very interactive, not really lecture-test centric though those come into play but not the focus. I guess, really, no matter the school it comes down to parental relationships with their kids and keeping things honest and real. I dont sugar coat anything for him. He witnessed me have my utter and complete breakdown, and on the other side of it all, I have been 100% honest about everything: including some rather uncomfortable topics like my addiction and other failures as well as the whys and wherefores of my rebound and recovery. We are really close and becuase I don't sugarcoat anything he tends to lock in and listen when were going over various and sundry life related issues. So, I think its really a combination of teaching him at home and also supporting his education, because with Waldorf they do endeavor to teach critical thinking...just not really to the degree I feel is necessary to navigate the world of Christian cults and other ponzi/MLM schemes that are so abundant out there. If he was still going to public schools then I could honestly forget any notion of him learning critical thinking because they simply didnt teach it to the point the kids could utilize the lessons.

For me, I no longer expect our educational system to teach critical thinking and I have my son enrolled in a non-religous private school, which has proven a better experience than public shools but still kinda lacking in the critical thinking department. Im going to watch this video with him and a few others and Im very honest about my time in the way international and very persistent in my efforts to teach him critical thinking skills, skills I only learned after being leadership in an abusive cult.