OldSkool

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

One of the things not often mentioned when discussing TWI local relations with people in surrounding areas is the children who were dragged along while their parents were fulfilling their “spiritual dream” of “serving at HQ”.  

Kids in schools are bullied incessantly.  Small town communities and cult compounds tend to produce that effect.  Smaller towns education is different and there are less resources for specializing- sports, trades, scholarships.  Much of the reaction to this is to rebel and turn to substance abuse.

Kids face pressures due to parents positions and the Pharisee hierarchy.  Directors kids probably are the most lonely of any.

This isn’t right.  Those kids deserve their own lives and unrestricted future.  Parents social climbing and org climbing lusts should not compromise this.  But parents are brainwashed so they trade their kids futures for their own status and advancement in the cult hierarchy.

Working PR is no more than a facade covering these problems.  The issue stems from using people and trading them like cattle for the leaders own lusts building fiefdoms and hierarchies.

Thats some really good perspective and it jarred my memory...back in 1999 on my apprentice year of my corps training I was of course at HQ. A close friend of mine had kids and lived in the unit park. My friend's daughter was in high school at the time and she filled me in quite a few things I was naive about. Mainly how rampant drugs and alcohol was amongst the staff kids and how promiscous teenaged staff kids tended to be amongst themselves really. Knowing teenagers Im sure this is still an issue, I mean really it just refutes the way internationals's own stupid boundaries that they are somehow set apart from the "world". Anywho...staff kids have it tough and you are correct, the directors kids are twice cursed. 

6 minutes ago, Oakspear said:

Popped in here after checking The Way's website. Way Ambassadors? Is that a retread of WOW Ambassadors and/or Way Disciples? 

Im thinking its an almagam of both.

1 hour ago, So_crates said:

 

On YouTube, no less...

Wow....just wow....talk about an actual WTF...I wonder if Craig and the way will start fighting in court now that hes using their copyrighted material....hold up...lemme get my popcorn..but...it speaks volumes that martindale's youtube channel has 164 followers...

2 hours ago, penworks said:

That's all that comes to mind, just now

Thanks for answering in detail, I appreciate your perspective for certain....It makes me wonder if the locals knew his reputation as a sexual predator and alcoholic, amongst other things and that was the reason for this great divide between the way international and local communities back when wierwille walked the earth....When I left in 2008 the way international had developed some pretty solid relationships amongst the community, of course this all centered around commerce...rarely did any townies come to the auditorium except for the Harvest Concerts that happened in November and we would invite folks in to enjoy the concert. Some town folks would come see what the fuss was all about and it wasnt that bad of a turnout considering the concerts didnt change much from year to year. 

So from my perspective, the relationships were strained more so when wierwille and martindale were running the show. Rosalie had us work on public relations locally, not to actually help anyone from the local area, but to lose the reputation of an isolated cult compound.....which it is...anywho...Thanks again!!!

8 hours ago, penworks said:

To keep things interesting on this thread ... here's one of my blog posts at https://charleneedge.com dated: May 10, 2018. It's a letter from a pastor in New Knoxville, OH.

Echo in New Knoxville, Ohio: Minister Reads Undertow | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

 

 

Penworks, can you explain wht the relationship between the way international and local towns such as New Knoxville? I always caught bits and pieces of various points of contention, both from the size of the ROA and basic pettiness. Don't know how much you had to deal with back in the day. When I came to HQ in 1999 we were told basically, in so many words, not to interact with locals. In retrospect I wonder what that was all about? Wierwille's reputation? anywho. Thanks for considering.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

This same idea of merging religions for unity was later taken up by the Catholic church in all their missionary work over the centuries.

That merging action was actually initiated by Constantine in the third century and his actions to develop a paganized version of Christianity set the scene for eventual emergance of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome shifted from persecuting Christians to paganizing Christians beliefs/practices in order to make Christianity palatable to Romans for political purposes. So, should the verses in question have been added or altered for those reasons, history is certainly supportive. 

I still feel there is a smallish chance that if the verses were actually added as forgeries, that Pharisees could have been the unseen hand in this case. They are cited in scripture as coming up with all kinds of schemes to hide Christ from the masses including but not limited to bribing the Romans to say that Jesus didnt rise but his disciples stole away his body in secret. So, with Christ taking his last breath it's somehwhat plausible that everyone in Judea knew or had hear of some version of what happened, such as the temple veil being ripped from top to bottom.. So, to say something totally false and unbelievable or even ridicoulous would serve to discredit the first century Church...totally my speculation, totally my opinion, Im just saying...perhaps..

5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

IF there was such an interpolator, it would do us well to consider who he was trying to convince, and what he was trying to convince them OF.  

AFAIK, this addition would do NOTHING to convince a Jew to believe Jesus was the Son of God/the Christ/ etc.

In the first few centuries following Pentecost, we don't see Christianity continuing to expand primarily as a Jewish group. Initially, it was seen as so by the Roman empire, but Judaism as a whole was only so big. When Christianity increased by sizeable numbers (after Pentecost itself and a few years thereafter), it was generally among Gentile nations, among those who were NOT Jews or converts to Judaism.  Among the Roman empire, the obstacles were different than among the Jews. With the Jews, the idea of A Son of God was shocking.  Among the Romans, the idea of a god having a mortal son, and the son becoming immortal/some sort of god was COMMON.  One of the criticisms of the early church has been that they adopted pagan beliefs all too readily and interpolated them into Christianity (an underworld of the dead, a son of god becoming a god, the mother of a god becoming a god and receiving prayers, etc.)  You're quite familiar with any number of those.

So, for someone who saw Christianity as another religion competing in the Roman marketplace among all the others, he might see ANYTHING as some sort of "competition" of religions, and try to "OUTDO" the other religions.   Remember, we aren't talking someone who said "We have actual miracles every week, the others do not, so that's plenty of proof," we are talking about someone whose ideas of Divine Intervention are secular- not in power, not with angels, etc.  So, if he's going to try to outdo the Roman pantheon, he will have to do it on paper, and by outdoing their accounts.  With Julius Caesar a dead emperor and thus an object of worship, the interpolator would see direct competition with Jesus, especially as a man who died and became some sort of god.  So, if they claimed Caesar's death was accompanied by the dead rising and walking among the streets, then he'd at least claim the same was true of Jesus, whose death was FAR more important and supernatural. 

 

This would have been nonsense to Jews, as it would be to me, but he wasn't trying to advertise to Jews nor to me.  He was advertising to the average Roman who was used to a temple to Julius Caesar, and so on.

Perhaps the verses were added/inserted into scriptural narrative to discredit the event surrounding Christ's death. There were certainly enough Pharisees around at the time to pull that one off. In the epistles we frequently read of false brethren and such...

6 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Why was this miracle only mentioned in two verses and not the other gospels and other New Testament scriptures?

Thats the million dollar question...had it actually occured I feel it wouldve been mentioned in other places...

19 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Thank you very much for helping me laugh.   With regard to the subject of Matthew 27:52-53. Instead of calling someone that this is the author of a biblical teaching book "not very smart" or "an idiot". I recommend that we address this subject, instead of criticizing a follower of Jesus Christ. Using my biblical study software program, here is a commentary on these two verses with legitimate copy right information at the end of this quote.

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[And the graves were opened] By the earthquake; and many bodies of saints which slept, i.e. were dead, sleep being a common expression for death in the Scriptures. 

Matthew 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[And came out of the graves after his resurrection] Not BEFORE, as some have thought, for Christ was himself the FIRST FRUITS of them who slept, 1 Corinthians 15:20. The graves were opened at his death, by the earthquake, and the bodies came out at his resurrection.
[And appeared unto many.] Thus establishing the truth of our Lord's resurrection in particular, and of the resurrection of the body in general, by many witnesses. Quesnel's reflections on these passages may be very useful:
1. The veil being rent shows that his death is to put an end to the figurative worship, and to establish the true religion.
2. The earthquake, that this dispensation of the Gospel is to make known through the earth the judgments of God against sin and sinners.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
 

Hi Mark, I may be reading ambiguity into your post that isnt there...do you feel that the verses in question are true? And if so why...not trying to pick a fight either...Im on board with the GMIR article that Mike posted by Daniel L. McConaughy, however, I am interested in considering reasons why the verses may also be accurate...thanks!

16 hours ago, WordWolf said:

In fact, this dovetails nicely with that OldSchool pointed out about Gnostic influences and Gnostics adding their own writings and trying to get them included in Scripture- largely to advance some obscure doctrinal position of their own. 

 

So, the writer would mean well, and would think it was the right thing to do - it certainly was common enough that he wouldn't think it was UNUSUAL. 

Its interesting to consider these points because it's histrorically accurate to say that almost as soon as an authentic epistle from the Apostles was circulated it was also rewritten. Paul addresses this in part with everybody has a psalm and everybody has a doctrice. So there's the point that WordWolf makes that I do agree with. 

And to add to the equation there are people who purposefully rewrite and change scripture to further satans designs to obscure the gospel. 

Romans 1:18 - AV1611

For the wrath of God is reueiled from heauen against all vngodlinesse, and vnrighteousnesse of men, who hold the trueth in vnrighteousnesse.

Hold can also be stated as supress. So there are those who purposfully supress scripture as well. It's accomplished in many baby steps...boil the frog slowly as they say...for example there are:

- deletions

- insertions

- changed pronouns

- changed nouns

- confused and inaccurate Koine Greek definitions that give a false sense of whats actually written

- There's books that should be included in the Bible that aren't that are hidden amongst the garbage texts that WordWolf mentioned. Book of Jubilees, Jasher, and 1 Enoch come to mind. I cite them since they are all heavily quoted in scripture or cross referenced in scripture. Jude directly quotes the first chapter of The Book of Enoch verbatim and the phrase Son of Man used by Jesus Christ himself is from Enoch. Jubilees and Jasher are also cross referenced in the Old Testament...yet they are stashed amongst the so called Pseudepigrapha, or falsely attributed works.

- Altered concepts that do not mean what scripture actually teaches but are altered to suit someone's specific agenda and/or narrative.

I could continue but figured this is enough for you guys to start poking holes in my Pinata, as I expect and desire. Peace!

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

In geometry, parallel lines are coplanar infinite lines that do not intersect at any point.

Because the Word works with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision in the law of believing then we can safely produce the following mathematical corollary regarding needs and wants:

If you want it you’ll never need it.

If you need it you’ll never want it.

 

 

Dude...that could be the sixth way corps principle....sure beats believe abundantly to live on a genuine need basis...and all that jazz..

1 hour ago, Twinky said:

Are you off on some parallel track now, OS?

No just a lame attempt at humor...

6 hours ago, WordWolf said:

We ARE having an intelligent discussion on those. 

However, the GSC has always had problems of such discussions being interrupted by impertinence.

It's hardly unique in that respect-  on the day of Pentecost, there were scoffers saying the men were drunk on "new wine" (arguably not alcoholic.)   

I once was trying to have a discussion on a subject specifically omitting what vpw and twi taught- just what we saw from the verses or found from OTHER sources.  I requested that specifically, a few times. I gave up because one of the busier posters on the thread (nobody who's posting on this thread, but I forget who it was)  kept replying by consistently invoking vpw and generally disagreeing with him- in each and every post.  Eventually, I just got tired of making the effort.  (Not that I minded someone disagreeing with vpw, but that was specifically off-topic for the thread.) 

Fair enough, and thanks, and Ive certainly derailed a ton of threads my self so not trying to point fingers with three pointing back at me. Ill post later today after work.

Not directed specifically at anyone, but I actually thought we were gonna have an intelligint discussion based on GMIR and the topic at hand. Is this all GSC is anymore? 

1996-2008

6 hours ago, Mike said:

The posted article above seems to have been stimulated by magazine activity 2 months prior.  In the Mar/Apr 1982 issue, the following Q&A was printed, calling attention to the previous work on the Matt.27 graves issue, in a small footnote in JCOP.

 

*/*/*/*/*

 

Q Someone recently asked me about Matthew 27:52 and 53:

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

He wanted to know why the dead got up when Jesus Christ was crucified. How do I best answer this question?

 

A That question is handled in Jesus Christ Our Passover in the footnote on pages 257-58.  Let me quote it here:

“Matthew 27:52 and 53 are clearly added by scribes. Manuscript 354 in Venice, Italy, omits these verses. Though other textual documentation for this has not yet been found, it must be realized that the earliest manuscript including this section of Matthew 27 dates from the fourth century A.D. These verses must be an addition since they are contradictory to other scriptures which teach us that the dead are dead and will remain so until Christ returns. Until that time, only Christ has been raised bodily from death unto everlasting life. Textual critics as well as marginal notes in other old manuscripts have recognized these verses as later interpolations. The phrase ‘after his resurrection’ in Matthew 27:53 demonstrates the passage is totally out of context, obviously a scribal addition.”

Im inclined to agree with the article for the following reasons:

1) There is no other reference to an otherwise significant event, had it occured.

2) The concept does not fit from the point of view that Jesus Christ is the first fruits to rise from the dead. Jesus Christ is pre-eminant in all things because that's the way God ordained it.

3) While there are clear records in scripture of Jesus, et. al. raising people from the dead who died prematurely, there are three distinct events where the dead shall be made alive a) Gathering together, b) resurection of the just, c) resurection of the unjust. 

4) What happened to them after they supposedly rose? They go back and die again? (Illustrating common sense that doesnt fit with the narrative presented in scripture.)

5) Church history, Fathers, and writings as quoted in the GMIR article are all incongruent. Such a significant event surely would not be contradictory from a historical perspective.

One thing I will note though, the oldest manuscripts are not the best manuscripts. If one manuscript, or text as the case may be, omits a verse that in itself should cause alarm on account of the omission which leads to the question why was it omitted? In this case perhaps the omission is valid. However, as a rule of thumb, oldest does not equal better. The Westcott/Hort greek text was supposedly older and supposedly more authoritative due to it's age. But God appearantly did not choose one text to rule them all, but many texts in agreement to safeguard what was written. I leave you guys with tables showing deletions and omissions by Westcott and Hort texts (Codex Vaticanus, and Codex Sinaticus) from the Textus receptus or Received Texts. Westcott and Hort utilized Alexandrian texts whereas theTextus Receptus is from the Byzantine line of texts. The Textus Receptus agrees with the majority of the 5000 odd texts in existance today. Alexandria was a hotbed of Gnostiscism, where the Byzantine texts trace to Antioch of Syria and ultimately the first century Church who were careful to steward the scriptures they received.

https://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

16 hours ago, Rusty Duck said:

Thanks for the warm welcome everybody. I wish I had more time to putz around the cafe but life hasn't slowed down much. Summer is glorious and I am here for it!

Hi! Welcome to GSC...guess Im a bit slow on the draw to see your thread, so here is a very warm, yet belated welcome!!

1 hour ago, Mike said:

sorry for the delay.

I'll find a way to post the rest

 

 

Thanks for your troubles Mike.

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

Tell me if this is readable.
I didn't have time to do an OCR.

Thanks Mike....I can read it on fine zoomed in....when you get a chance can you post the rest of the article? Personally, of the old way magazines, GMIR was one of the best contributions.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

For us it is no longer a life or death kind of struggle, but for others it still is a very desperate situation... a war of epic proportions!

But if you look at 1 John (ashamed) and 1 Cor 3 (suffer loss) you will see that even for us, the loss of rewards can be a very devastating thing.  The Word compares it to having your house burn to the ground.

We are in a competition FOR KEEPS, and there is no blowing it off.

 

We are not, and never have been, in a spriritual competition. Error. 

58 minutes ago, Mike said:

It sounds to me like you, as a victim, are totally unaware of the spiritual war going on all around us. 

But wait...I thought it was the spiritual competition...?

On 7/8/2023 at 5:12 PM, Mike said:

I'm trying to use actual scriptures as anchors for what I think.

It doesnt work that way Mike....we take ourselves up to what scripture says to live God's ways not wrest scriptures to support your opinion....but hey...your fader in da verd did the same...so have fun..

See ya here, there, or in the air....oops...I mean Godspeed, sir!!

On 7/8/2023 at 3:34 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

 

 

 

…mmmph

Ima be leaving now

4 hours ago, Mike said:

At the beginning of this thread and several times through it I have said that I have NOT YET gone through the PFAL steps for this one idea of budget and double doors.

This idea is not yet ready for that kind of study.

I did this same thing with the Canon idea, but that idea was much more developed, and I was turning the PFAL crank on that.

On the Determinism versus Free Will thread, my developing of a set of minFW ideas had very little PFAL cranking in it, but lots of science cranking. 

I think it has been rare here that I bring up undeveloped new ideas. 

Long ago I was working the area of spiritual versus senses knowledge in the Ubiquitous thread circa 2003, but it got too complicated for me to finish, so I backed off of that undeveloped idea.

The mirror reversal puzzle I presented here was totally developed and nailed down, but I had to practice my presentation. Later I wrote it up for a different audience in finished form.

Other than those minor exceptions, HERE I try to present PFAL cranked ideas most of the time.