exousia

I am amazed that most of us who claim to be ex-way people yet we absolutely WILL NOT let go of the JC is Not God doctrine of the Way. Dr. W said that the difficult verses need to be understood in light of the clear verses. Well, obviously what we called the "difficult verses" are the "clear verses" to the trinitarians. e.g. Col. 1:16-18 John 17:5 John 1:1, for example. Can we read English? What do these verses say? Re-read VPW's explanation in the JC is Not God book and HONESTLY see if his explanations make any sense to you at all NOW. Are these verses unclear? Many of the explanations seem unclear to me now. I exhort you to read the Gospel of John straight thru as if you have never read it before. It may be hard to do, but try it. Try not to hear VPW as you read it. If you still can hear VPW in your head, well, YOU are not reading it. There is much more to Jesus Christ than we ever were taught in the Way. We were taught the epistles but honestly, did we ever really read and study the Gospels? We may never truly know if JC is God or Not God on this side of eternity. All I know is that many TWI followers still think disparangingly of trinitarians. Just think...we MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG. What makes us think we are/were so right? I truly think God has to reveal many of these truths to us. He will if we ask Him. And don't be surprised if His answers contradict what we have been taught. I myself went thru hell and back with this issue and have made peace with it. Each man and woman needs to come to grips with this issue. Nothing I write here or anything anyone else can write here will settle this in the hearts of all of us. I am sad that ex-TWI people make this a bone of contention in the Christian world. Some will not even consider going to church because of this. How sad since Hebrews 10:25 tells us to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together. The Christan walk is not a "lone ranger" deal. We all need eachother! Let me tell you, I have found many wonderful men and women in the churches in my area of the map who love God and His people and who are doing great things for God and His kingdom. I belong to such a church and thank God for these wonderful people I have the privilege to help lead. I truly pray I have commuicated this with love. It is a hard topic and one that I have struggled with for many years. May God help us all in our quest for truth regarding this devisive issue. May it cease to be devisive soon. exousia

Ted, you have been a beloved brother in Christ for so many of us since we first saw and heard you no matter what ROA or fellowship we saw/heard you. You never professed to be anything but a man who loves God. You never flaunted yourself, and have always been an inspiration to me (I cannot speak for anyone else but I am SURE it is true for countless others). I thank God I had the pleasure of seeing you so many times at TWI events, and I thank God that by the miracle of technology that I can voice my love as a brother in Christ to you. exousia

HI Ted, God bless you. I am still "Ready to Go" whenever He decides to come get me and all of us! exousia

Let's see...what other sin can we sing about? NOt sure if God, even though He may hate sin, would want us to sing about it and make fun of it. I think the Homo song and Tinitarian song were out of line. I have read Romans 1 too as well as John 17 where it says Jesus Christ was going to return to His Father and share in the glory He had with Himbeforehand....hmmm....seems to me that I was taught that if ONE verse contradicted a clear verse, we had to understand it in light of the many other verses about the same subject.

Lots of comments about "Beautiful Ohio." I always felt sorry for the gal who had to sing it at the ROA's and Corps Weeks. I do not remember her name but my condolences are with her even today. I always sang, "Beautiful Ohio where the skies are blue, Who would think that people in the Way would screw?" It kinda got me through the agony of that song and it got a chuckle out of the people I sang it around whenever it happened to be playing. exousia

By far the WORST OF THE WORST is "Mama, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Homos." I always found this song to be offensive and hurtful. Anything that makes fun of anyone, whether it be fat people (LCM loved to tell fat jokes...this ....ed me off, too, since I know many people who were offended but never would say anything since "the man of God" told them...) alcoholics, etc. is not showing the love of God. I recall not laughing at gay jokes in the Corps (LCM loved these too) and was asked why I did not laugh. I disliked it then and still dislike those kind of jokes that put down people who struggle. It is easy to laugh at things you have no problem with. The next worst song, "Whose Kidding Who?" Yuck. exousia

His son is in Lima, Ohio...is in an up and coming Christian Rock band that is about to make it to the big time. Last I heard they are in Texas. exousia

There were so many, many red flags that went up but I was so indoctrinated that I ignored that "still small voice" and even the LOUD SCREAMING VOICE of God because I failed to discern them. And we were supposed to do "all 9 all of the time." Oh pullleeeaasse! I may have received a word of knowledge I was a nerd of wisdom. Hindsight is 20/20. I used to regret the wasted years, but am realizing that God does restore the years that the locusts have devoured. Years in the wilderness after leaving TWI...I am beginning to cross the Jordan into the Promised Land. There is life with the one true God after TWI. He will reveal it to us. It takes time but if you desire it, He will show it to you. Mike, master the Word of God, not the blasted collaterals for God's sake! Read it like you never read it before. If you still hear VPW's voice when you read it you are reading it with a veil over your eyes. Let it all GO and start it from Genesis like you never read it before. Watch what God will reveal to you. It will be a new book. exousia exousia

The End exousia

My head is spinning. exousia

So I guess my question of a couple of pages ago is a "NO," loud and resounding. This sure is a hot topic and an issue we may never see resolved in our lifetimes. I believe homosexuality will never be accepted by the majority of people. Christ will come back before it happens and then and only then will we know his take on all of this. It will be interesting to see if same sex relationships will be allowed during his 1,000 year reign on earth (if you happen to believe there will even BE a 1,000 year reign). I know that hetero men generally like lesbian stuff in porno flicks (I do not, never have). However, male affection, even non-sexual, is not acceptable in the USA as a rule. People just do not like to see it. In Europe and other continents male affection is much more acceptable. It was quite common in the USA before Freud's psycology changed everything. Oh well. exousia

My goodness...this topic may be the #1 topic ever as far as responses. My question is: Has anyone ever known or heard of a homosexual that has TRULY been delivered? I mean REALLY TRULY ULTIMATELY delivered? We were taught in twi that it is a demon (devil spirit). Ok...say that it is. It TRAINS your mind and you have that orientation of preferring a man or a women (whatever you happen to be). Can this be changed? If it IS NOT a demon and is truly a SEXUAL ORIENTATION, is deliverance necessary? Mel White, author of STRANGER AT THE GATE, said that his homosexuality is a "gift from God." I cannot agree with that, but can we truly say that it is NOT something people are born with? Also, if one CAN be delivered, why is is so damn hard for those who truly DO NOT WANT to be homosexual to change? I know people who love God and the things of God but HATE themselves for being gay; they so want to change but CANNOT. These people have great compassion for God's people, and many gifts that God has blessed them with. It is tough. Is this like alcoholism, or any other difficult social sin? No one seems to have the answers. Can anyone here help? All I can say is that it is easy to criticize someone for something that THEY THEMSELVES have no problem with or struggle with. Trefor is a brave man to be so open about what he believes. TWI was evil and cruel to gay people, especially in the mid 90's witch hunt that LCM started. All he needed to do is look in his own backyard and he would have found 2 witches. exousia

Great post dot! Love you bunches. My question is, as a man who thinks he knows a little about who is attractive and who is not, WHY did anyone even consider messing with VPW or LCM? This is somethng I cannot even comprehend. Was it an infatuation? Was it rape, or forced? Were women thinking it was love? I want to understand this. I hurt for all of you. I hate when people are used. exousia

Wow. The emotions are running high on this thread. Mike is really in need of some serious deliverance. Sounds like a conscience seared with a hot iron. As much as we may hate to admit it, twi was and is a CULT. Classes such as CF & S were devilish because even something that God said "was very good" was perverted. Just look at the hurt it has caused for just the few people who have posted on this thread. The reason sex offenses leave a scar is because not only is it mental abuse but it involves a bodily function that makes an IMPACT on one's mind. Our very soul is affected! To justify any sexual offense is off the Word...hetero or homo. This thread should end soon. It is painful to see all the hurt, and Mike you need prayer. I hope it is not too late for you to get deliverance. exousia exousia

To answer the question about when the CF & S class was offered until, our last CF & S class was run in about 1986. After that not too many classes such as the Way Tree, etc., were offered anymore. Just a BIG push on PFAL classes. We need to realize that the orig. CF & S class was taped in the 1970's, 30 years ago!! The attitudes and thinking were much different than today. Today someone is offended if a person sneezes the wrong way. It was not that way back in the 70's. Gays dared not stand up for themselves, divorced people had a stigma to them, etc. Lots has changed since then. Dr. W would never be able to say what he did in that class if it was made for the post modern culture of today. We've come a long way, baby, or have we? exousia

Oh my goodness...we KNEW this would come out eventually. Incest, homosexuality...It wasn't incest until when? Does anyone have a clue? (Perhaps sometime during the 400 years between Genesis and Exodus when the earth was pretty well populated). By the time of the Law of Moses there were enough people to go around. The jury is still out on the homosex issue. Too hot a topic as we have seen in other forums here. exousia

u r welcome Rottie!!! Smooch. exousia

I took CF & S in 1975 shortly after I took the PFAL class. I thought it was a riot that the penis example he first showed was a black man's. Guess he wanted to make sure there was something there for everyone to see!! LOL. The masturbation thing was interesting. I can vividly recall that in the manifestations directly before the "BIG M" segment the guy who spoke in tongues and interpreted said that the things we were hearing were "the rightly divided Word of God." I, a relatively new believer, was excited that I was being so enlightened to be in such a spiritual enviornment with people who REALLY knew the Word. I see now how that was not the case. I was put in the front row of the class (we had assigned seats then). Guess they really wanted me to get the full force of this class. Rottie, women SHOULD enjoy sex as much as men do without being called anything derogatory. I am so sorry that VPW exalted the man but made women seem less than the wonderful blessings they are to man. Shmae on him. He will be judged harshly for this. exousia

It is nice to see that people we may have known in the past are still around. I am amazed at the many different opinions people now have about most everything we have ever learnd in twi. It seems that we have thrown out the "law of believing" (the needs and wants parallel thing always slew me...never ever understood it even though so many, many people tried to explain it all to no avail), but as I have mentioned once before, we may have left twi, but has twi left us? I have to say "no" to the latter. We all (well most of us, myself included), still have residual crap that needs to be sifted through. GS helps us see various viewpoints and as there is safety in the multitude of counsellors, we are in good company here. exousia

lima, oh here. exousia

We all need to reevaluate EVERYTHING we learned in twi, even the trinity. If we read the Bible as if Jesus is God, it really has a different flavor, and may clarify some things. Lots of the so called "difficult verses" may still be difficult but let me tell you, it sure makes life interesting. Col. 1:16 and 17 has ALWAYS baffled me. John 3 still baffles me, John 1:1 still baffles me. I am baffled. So is everyone else, if they are honest. To quote a very dear friend of mine "Some of you still won't associate with anyone who believes in the trinity!" How sad! I have taken the time to read some "systematic theology" books (very difficult & tedious reading, I assure you, but written by some brilliant theologians) to see some other views regarding this hot topic. It is not fair to just hinge everything we believe on one man's views. (VPW's) Wouldn't it be honest to read other people's views and then make an educated decision? I have the ONE LORD AND ONE GOD book and am reading that also. However, I am trying to allow the holy spirit (whose ministry is to teach "all things" as Jesus said, and to exhort, by the way) to show me the truth in this matter. I WANT TO KNOW ONCE AND FOR ALL! I believe I am receiving "snippits of truth" from God in this area. I have not put it all together yet, but it is a good study. I believe I am learning more about the Godhead (the Father, Son and holy spirit, whether capitalized or not...who the hell cares?) and that it takes all three to complete the Godhead. If anything we should call it the Godhead instead of the trinity, but again, is this important? This issue may never be resolved this side of eternity. We may never understand it all, but then again, God is infinite, we are not. Who says we have to figure Him out anyway? We HAD to be right in the Way. I am realizing that we do not always need to be right, but we do need to be humble. Write down what the Bible says Jesus Christ is sometime. The Word in the flesh, etc. etc. etc. This may startle you. Remember the Red Thread? If the whole Bible is about Jesus Christ, we need to rethink all we learned. Have fun! exousia [This message was edited by exousia on August 23, 2003 at 20:12.]

We had some great people in the 12th Corps. I trust many of them are still teaching and preaching Jesus Christ. I, too, am married and have 4 great kids and a terrific wife. Have moved on and at times I regret being in the Way, but God is sovereign. I am influencing more people now at church than I ever did at TWI. God will make a place for you when you desire to serve Him and Him alone. There is life, and A LOT OF IT, after the Way. exousia

is LCM back at hq? does anybody know for sure? exousia