dabobbada

HCW, I'm behind your assessment 100%

I do think that is the root of the problem, vickles. ;)-->

Again, thank you HCW for your story. I think you have been quite detailed in the accounting of it, giving a number of details most people would never have noticed. HCW said he was a city boy, well, I was born and bred a farm boy. From long before my birth, my dad used trailers for many things. His trailers were similiar to theTWI trailer in that they were made from old car rear axles and tires. You use the drive shaft as the forward frame to the trailer hitch, and weld on a couple steel angle bars to make an A frame for sturdiness. Any competent backyard mechanic with the materials and a welder can make a good safe one in a few hours. To make it legal, you take it to a local license branch to be inspected to see it meets state laws. Dad's trailers had about a 4x8 bed area, the sideboards were 10 or 12 inches high. he used them to haul coal, cordwood, furniture, roto tillers, anything you could imagine. He made a lot of money and saved a lot of money too with those trailers. Trailers are useful but quirky devices that require things be done just exactly so, otherwise a hundred things can go very wrong very fast. Even when done right, things inside can shift around, and wind and road conditions can cause them to go out of control and take you with it. From my dad's teaching and from a juvenile lifetime of feeling the sensations in the seat of my pants, I could tell exactly how a trailer was riding, but I also had a similiar experience to this story topic, I used the same corrective maneuver, and fortunately had no problems. It still put my adrenaline in overdrive though. I have also seen right in front of my face, one of those 20 plus foot trailers like landscape teams use, swerve for no reason that I saw, go vertical standing on it's nose, and then roll itself and the truck towing it three times into the median. This was in steady easy traffic on a brand new very smooth road. Does anyone recall, it used to say on many a highway sign: Vehicles towing trailers Speed limit 45 mph. There was a reason for that. What I am saying is you can know all the rules and be well experienced with trailers and can still have an accident a dozen different ways. I don't know how much experience Kevin had with trucks and trailers, but in my opinion when everything went wrong, he did everything right. There were just too many things working against him, both man made and natural. As to Kevin being distracted with the paperwork? How many times have I seen women driving down the interstate putting on their makeup? How many times have I seen men doing the same while reading a book or newpaper? Or how many times have I seen both men and women doing 70 with a phone glued to their ears, or eating a gooey cheeseburger? And there are many other examples. Distractions while driving is a common problem that seems to get worse all the time. I'm not making excuses, I am saying just about everyone does it at times. One person here has asked a couple times, "wasn't it against the law to haul those people in the pickup bed?" Back in the early '80s, probably half the states had such laws, and half not. High population citified states likely would have had the law by then. The rural population states would tend to resist it until forced by insurance or the feds. Country folks, many times teach a child of 8 or 10 to drive a tractor or truck on the farm for needful things. They also teach kids how to be safe with said tractors, trucks, trailers and various dangerous machineries. A thing I've noticed here is that most of the judgements are being made from our twenty something plus additional years of hindsight, opinions and prejudices. Have we forgotten what it was like when we were young, full of energy and indestructible? In our youths, we tended to do many things that would make us shudder today. Those of us who became hippies did even more and those of who were adventurous did some really totally stupid things. Also in those days, there were a lot less rules and regulations simply because america was the land of the free.

Note: To those of you who have never been pecked by a duck, believe me, they can hurt. :D-->

To my dearest Krysilis for those dangerous ducks. ;)--> Get the Duck, Before they get you

5727 eh,... Abi, it sounds like you are a woman many years ahead of your time. :)--> To every man his own Rosanna and his own Banana-nana within.

Thanks HCW, When this is finished, someone ought to edit out all the non HCW, non accident stuff and place it in the My Story Forum.

Will.... nowww......... fer a first date? Go over to a puddle an' rinse yer shoes clean, if ya really want to impress 'er, kick off yer shoes an' rinse yer socks too. Then brush th' dried mud from yore cuffs an' knees. Take off yore PeterBilt belt buckle and replace it with somethin' more romantic like a huntin' buckle, unless of course you know she likes them big-rig trucks. Mosey on over to th' hamper an dig thru it 'til you find a t-shirt without too much mustard, relish or beer drippings on it. If'n it don't smell too ripe, it'l do. Take off that greasy "I'm Your Sex Machine" cap, an' put on a less greasy Budweiser cap. If'n yuh really wanna impress her, reach way back 'n' pullout yore prized black Dale Earnhart #3 racing cap. (Make sure yew warshed yer hair maybe this week if'n yuh gonna wear Dale's cap, may God bless 'im.) Now go outta th' trailer an' look at yore available transportation so's yew kin be Prince Charmin to yer Cindyreller. Thuh Gremlin is up on blocks 'cuz th' tires are way past bald. Th' '69 Dodge Dart, though a purdy dulled dayglow orange, don't hold it's water too good these days. Th' '57 Chevy dump truck don't run good unless ya keep th' speed up above 78 miles per hour, thet might make her nervous on th' twisty dirt back roads. Danged wimmens got weak stomaches on them whoop-de-doo roads. I guess that brings it on down to th' '47Jeep with no top an' th' springs stickin'out of th' seat, ... naw. Thuh '71 Ford pick-em-up, nope, it's th' work truck, don't wanna move all those lunch wrappers, beer cans an' chicken bones outta the passenger footwell and seat. Well... that leaves my hillbilly limo, the '61 Corvair Deluxe Greenbriar Van: Kick out th' 11 cats thet live in it an' untape th' plastic windows to air it out some... run th' win'shield washer soz I kin see out front. yeah, this'l impress her, shucks, I might git lucky in th' back seat tonite......(Glad I wore th Dale Earnhart cap, even though i ain't warshed this month.) Hmmmm.. cain't see the Jeep or Gremlin, oughta mow th' grass sometime soon..... Yepper, startin tuh git ex-cited, its'a gonna be a good nite. Now should we go to Couzin Tyrone's Lard Fried BBQ Soul Food Shack or... Cowboy Fred's Hillbilly Heaven Bar with the free peanuts and pickles. God I love them Red Hotz Weiners and Pickled Pigs Feet.

I gotta go with ex10 and Radar on that they believed what they said. I watched VP up close and very closely too many times in the early '70s, when he was teaching in the BRC. The intensity when he was really into teaching some great point, and the frustration when he didn't think he was getting the greatness of the idea across like he wanted too. He believed what he was teaching. The problem was he rationalised that the grace of God so covered the sin nature that he could go ahead and sin that grace may abound. --> Remember the those passionate statements VP would say like: "Oh people, if you would only believe the greatness of the grace that God has given you!" Well, that was his license to use and abuse young women. Just push grace a little here and healing a little there. Grace will cover your sin, God will forgive you, again and again and again. Here a little and there a little on the promises of God. Rationalise it enough and you start to believe it, then it becomes doctrine. What was Paul's thorn in the flesh, why it was the weakness that man had and it placed good ol' Godly Paul at the level of VP. But VP knew his freedom in Christ to have free sex would anger and repulse ordinary believers, so he taught them a form of standard theology to keep them happy and reserved the great freedom revelations for his "spiritually mature," initiated ones, his inner circle of true believers. The outer circle, fed pablum to keep them happy, the inner circle with the deeper secret truths, why it's : The Waybylon Mystery Religion. That's hypocracy. I'm sure there was times when he was stretching things to fit his rationalizations that he knew he was wrong. But by the time I came along in '73, I believe VP believed all of it. From the milk and pablum he fed us babes in the word to spiritually mature secrets he taught the initiated ones of his inner orgy circle. When I was looking at WayDale and GreaseSpot, I met a lady who had been on staff at HQ. One day she told me about a conversation she with a member of the extended Weirwille family while on staff. this woman had been the last person to visit VP on the bus just before he died. VP was frustrated. He couldn't figure out what was that he had done in his life that allowed the cancer spirits to come in which were killing him. That meant he couldn't figure out what he had done wrong. In other words he had been completely godly in his own eyes. Paul covered abusing grace in several ways in several places in the epistles, but most notably in Romans, Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid

If they did so, who says it necessarily happened in Ohio, or even the US? They are after all, a sly and sneaky group of evildoers.

Just so you know........ I had spent several hours making a long reply to Garths stuff and when I went to log onto the net, something crashed and it went the way of lost sox and car keys. Damn this crap sometimes! I'm feeling poorly at the moment, my health sux and I never know when I will have a good day or not, so I can't at this moment say when I can reply. It may be a day, a week, even a month unfortunately, I never know. (I'm still pretty tired from the pre-election political fights. ) I always have to watch my energy levels, and consider carefully how I spend them. :(--> I am very tired and my eyes can't focus now, I hope to reply more soon. :D--> :D--> :D--> Sorry Garth, we could have had fun with it. :D-->

I'll be making my replies in boldtype to differentiate them from the person being quoted. George Aar, I am pretty much in agreement with you, the states became the religions. The communists outlawed, persecuted, imprisoned and "liquidated" people from all religions under their control, and Marxist/Leninist communism was proclaimed the state and the religion. The nazis did the same thing with national socialism. They also had a peculiar form of superhuman ancester worship many of them played with. A nice little mystical wetdream of Vikings, voluptuous Valkyries, and Valhalla for the slain heros to go to. Between them they have killed maybe 120 to 150 million people. Mr. Aar said... Anytime "faith" trumps reason, I get jumpy. Whether it's to an invisible Holy Thunderer, or to a benevolent, vague, but all powerful "State", rest assured, trouble is brewing. Somewhere, there is a balance of reason, state, faith and whatever else figures into the equation. I know, I've swung past the center so damn many times. ;)--> I read your link to the humanist scientist., Richard Dawkins, thanks, it was an enjoyable read. Didn' t VP once say something to the effect of the supreme court had declared humanism to be a religion? I remembered that when I saw "Published in the Humanist" So be careful ol' boy, I have it on VP's authority you're reading a religious document. :D--> From the early '60s junior high on, I have loved reading Science Digest and similiar science mags. The universe is a fascinating place and when science works it correctly, there are amazingly awesome things to be learned. One of the things I liked about TWI was that in the PFAL sections on Guinness chapters 1 and 2 where they...Just kidding, Genesis 1 and 2 where you could blend bible and science without contradiction. I was able to enjoy both the Bible and Science Digest, both Orientalisms of the Bible and Discovery Magazine. Ol'DocVP said, I think in PFAL that a true scientist could not beleive in god. Spirit could not be measured, so you go by by the five senses and rational reasoning. Mr. Dawkins fits this to a "T." The first and last parts of his paper not only make that point, but screams in his frustration that his science is not a faith. Dawkins says... and one that I often encounter as both a scientist and a rationalist — is an accusation of zealotry and bigotry in scientists themselves as great as that found in religious people. Reading his stuff, he really is a zealous bigot, obviously as enthused of his science as we were of "the word" in our time. Whether he likes it or not, science really is his faith. I don't have a problem with it, I would encourage him to enjoy it to the utmost, have a ball. He himself though doesn't like the association of the terminology. I enjoyed his attempts at describing the awe of science: Dawkins said... Uplift, however, is where science really comes into its own. All the great religions have a place for awe, for ecstatic transport at the wonder and beauty of creation. And it's exactly this feeling of spine-shivering, breath-catching awe — almost worship — this flooding of the chest with ecstatic wonder, that modern science can provide. And it does so beyond the wildest dreams of saints and mystics. The best of words, however well strung together and inspired, can seem dreadfully lacking to the greatness of what you have seen with your own eyes and felt in your own heart. As I read Dawkins words above, I pictured him in his head, seeing a magical mind picture of a full color Hubble telescope image of the Horsehead Nebula or the heavenly glowing gasses at the center of a nearby galaxy. You're entranced and words just aren't enough. The love of science in me, mindmelds with the love of science in him, and for a moment, we are of one soul. Unfortunately, shortly after that: Dawkins said... I do feel very strongly about the way children are brought up... Which brings me to my point about mental child abuse.... There are opinions about the cosmos and the world that children, once grown, will presumably be in a position to evaluate for themselves. Religion is the one field in our culture about which it is absolutely accepted, without question — without even noticing how bizarre it is — that parents have a total and absolute say in what their children are going to be, how their children are going to be raised, what opinions their children are going to have about the cosmos, about life, about existence. Do you see what I mean about mental child abuse? Here Mr. Dawkins is showing major bigotry and socialist mindset, but he goes farther. He talks of forcing evolution into religious education classes Dawkins said... The children would look at the spellbinding wonders of the living kingdoms and would consider Darwinism alongside the creationist alternatives and make up their own minds. What worries me is not the question of equal time but that, as far as I can see, children in the United Kingdom and the United States are essentially given no time with evolution yet are taught creationism (whether at school, in church, or at home). Mr. Dawkins is looking at a british view of forcing darwinism into apparently country wide religious classes. In the US, some school may have optional religious classes available. But his point is he doesn't think enough evolution is taught in school so force more on, even in special religious classes. (That's too close to Orwell's 1984 think/speak to me. If you are a democrat and Clinton is in, the doublespeak may be just fine with you, but what happens when Bush comes in with his own version of doublespeak? It's funy that Orwell wrote 1984 as a warning, but many look on it as a guidebook.) Mr. Dawkins scares me here, in the great middle section of the paper, he slams on religion, he slams on parents, he slams on educators, and on the children and calls it mental child abuse. He clearly wants rip kids away from all the vile bad stuff and stuff their little noggins with what he decides is truth. Doesn't that chill you? Send a chill up your spine? It's pure socialist elitism. He has all the answers. Your mind is ruined, but he can save your children. Sorry, buddy, I ain't going to church with you. Something I have seen in little snippets here and there is more scientists claiming the grand marvels of science they are discovering are helping them to see the infinite mind of God as the great architect of the universe. More of our scientists are willing to admit they believe in God. For the kids that Mr. Dawkins is so concerned about. not having the "proper indoctrination"? In my own youth, my friends growing up with me, and the kids I've known since then, both in and out of TWI. They have a good basic understanding but casual believing attitude of their parents religion. By high school, they have a good basic understanding of evolution with a casual believing attitude toward it too. And anyone who goes to college gets a strong belief of Darwinism, thinks socialism will cure all the world's ills, and thinks that homosexuals are ok... At least until I get a little gay and make a pass at him, Then he jumps back 25 feet... and shivers while turning green. :D--> :D--> :D--> (Sorry Trefor) ;)--> Mr. Dawkins has his good points but is an elitist, socialist, zealot, bigot. Both science and the Bible are wonderful, and can work together. Our kids are doing just fine in spite of everything. :)-->

I'll be making my replies in boldtype to differentiate them from the person being quoted. You may fire at will... :D--> :D--> :D--> I only do that to folks who are looking for a fight. ;)--> If you ask a halfway honest question, I'll do my best to give a halfassed honest answer. :D--> When I was young, growing up in rural Indiana, the government, the legal system, and the church, all would gang up to defend The Bill of Rights. Old codgers would argue politics so vehemently they'd turn purple and and you'd swear they'd come to blows any second. But when they were done, they'd agree they disagreed, and swear to defend to the death each other's right to their opinion. That was the old america. Sadly it is no longer that way, everyone is so polarized it is their way or the highway and.. die M-F'er. I'm not intirely against the ACLU, they do a lot of good work for folks who need certain help, and who often can't afford it too. A wayfer friend of mine was with the ACLU back in the '70s. Many ACLU lawyers really want to help people. At least they did back then. I don't follow the ACLU these days but a couple of my friends who do, have noted to me they in no wise defend all the bill of rights. They have never protected the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, and there are a couple more they are notably infrequent on. I think the 4th and 10th but don't quote me on it. Trouble is there is a group within them who want to push things well past the reasonable to the ridiculous and the sublime. It is a good thing to make sure a church and state don't get in cahoots together, it is not a bad thing to prevent a state from wrapping itself in God's cloak, but it is rather absurd to attempt to totally seperate god from government. It is not in the nature or traditions, or the deep soul of most people to go to such extremes. Most people have a sense of god kinship and they feel they are being pushed too far. There is a backlash coming. A headline I saw today is proclaiming Micheal Moore and the Hollywood and media elites, by pushing so hard against Bush and for Kerry, actually helped Bush get elected. The source was liberal. Here are some recent ACLU directed headlines: Florida senator swears he'll help Scouts TheArticle The American Legion blasts Pentagon for giving in to ACLU TheArticle Congress gets into ACLU cross brouhaha TheArticle 700 lawyers ready to fight ACLU TheArticle Is the Declaration of Independence unconstitutional? TheArticle If you read the articles, you would see they are about minor things: A beloved cross in a park. The Declaration of Independence mentions God so you can't show it in class. Boy Scouts on a military base. Whether Christmas things are OK or not in schools. Little things, but deeply embeded in the american heritage and soul. Many americans are fed up over the continued attacks on their traditions and values and are saying enough is enough. The ACLU needs to realize they've done quite a bit of what they wanted to accomplish. Thru fear of ACLU reprisal, government employees make it a religion to be antichrist in government today. But they aren't satisfied, they keep looking for more and smaller points to tackle, offending more and more people to please a few and fewer, or even one. The cross in the park for example, one man is offended at it, and a whole city and area are furious at him and signing all sorts of petitions against it's removal. It would be wise of the ACLU to back off of the extremeism or the backlash will come after them like an avalance down the slopes of Mt. Everest. Consider those ten or so states with the gay marriage issues. They all voted no by margins of 67% to 90% against them. Even nice little guaranteed liberal blue states like my Michigan. George, you and I both love the orient. (I spent one year in Thailand and two years in Okinawa in the early '70s.) I love and respect the people, the culture, and had a long time interest in their religions. If the ACLU were in Japan or Thailand right now, what do you think they would be doing all to the public shrines, buddhas, prayer wheels and the like? How would that affect their heritage, traditions and culture. How would the locals react to them and their court backed preachy ways? Many americans are so fed up with the smug extremism of the one way, that they are being made extremists the other way.

Hey Garth, How's the mutual admiration society today? :D--> Got an energy spell and been replying to posts all night. (sigh! I wish I had more of them.) I'm kinda posting in an order so I'll have some fun for you too in a while if I keep 'er up. :)-->

I'll be making my replies in boldtype to differentiate them from the person being quoted. Showing respect is nodding your regard for other peoples humanity and customs. My dad always taught me to respect others. Whupped my butt if I didn't. To this day I enjoy meeting folks and learning of their cultures. Harvey is a peculiar duck all right, praying is believing even if it is to yourself. Most people worship the dollar, personal comfort, and sex from what I've seen lately, and not necessarily in that order either. :)--> Do you still do the computer work for that church? I still remember the site you posted once, it's a very well thought out and beautful church. You say you bow your head, do you attend services, or is that when a prayer happens near you?

:D--> :D--> :D-->

I am feeling too poorly to give the responses tonight that I would like to. After all, while you may have met a few athiests, I was raised by one. Hopefully I'll have more energy before this thread goes the way of alll threads, but I must say this now: It is one thing to challenge your imagined opponents, it is quite another to mock them. Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the wisest guy of all? Why Garth, it is you of course! Sorry, but that is my long term impression of you ol' bud. Everybody in this life eventually picks a belief system, whether christian, redneck, buddhist, communist, businessman, hippie, blue collar, academician or athiest. He settles into his favored cult, and surrounds himself with likeminded cultists. They congratulate and pat each other on the back and say how wise are we. Misery truly does love company. But Garth, it seems it just isn't enough to just give your belief system answers, but you always seem to have this need to punctuate it with some mockery which you desire to be percieved as humor. I guess the mockery works pretty good, by the time I read it, I've pretty much forgotten your rather pedestrian reply. I can respect Unca Hairy and P-Mosh, they obviously believe what they speak and reply too. You, dear Br'er Garth, seem to set up your threads to show off your brilliance against the opposing and ignorant masses, followed by a nice little coup de grace of delicious mockery with a fine whine. You are not as impressive as you think you are, ol' Bud.

As for Harvey, I see nothing more than a typical bunch of pious athiest platitudes strung together in a nice coherant stream of thought. Pretty much like TWI did for their arguments to make them sound good. I have read pretty much the same reasonings used by the ACLU any time they throw a lawsuit at some government unit to force christianity out. Now the ACLU is attacking the US military for supporting boy scouts and a state abstinence site because some teen girls credit God for giving them the moral strength to abstain. Back to Harvey, he said he doesn't believe in gods or goddesses or the afterlife. Yet he prays, because of the known scientific "laws" and humanistic principals. Pychological reasons really, my dad, an athiest, didn't pray to nothing. In my book, if you're praying, your believing in something, no matter how convoluted you reason it out. Harvey says we are lucky enough to live in a country where we have freedom of religion and from religion. This is true and I agree with it. But then after having sat himself on the high moral ground, he then gets his digs in on catholics (must'a been raised as one) and religion in general. Then he pulls out a few more pious athiest platitudes to finish. Again, it very much reminds me of the typical well rehearsed TWI spiel. He really said nothing new, You've heard it all before. If you spent any time in TWI at all, you learned how to set up an argument in your favor. Are there bad nuns? Yes, but what is the ratio of bad to good nuns? Are there bad Priests, what is their bad to good ratio. Are there good athiests? Yes but how many bad ones are there out there who believing in nothing, make themselves subject to no morals and set themselves no bounds for low and evil works. (See how I reset the parameters a little and get the opposite result?) Shirley Harvey is proselytizing his un-religion just as we did our VPWeirwillisms. (And don't call me surely.) How about them communists, Garth? They claim there is no god, but the state replaces god and the political system is the religion. I guess no one expects the Stalin, Mao, or Uncle Ho inquisition either. Russia - estimated 30 to 50 million dead China - another 50 to 70 mil Several million by Communists in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Plus a dead cast of many more from various communist plagued countries around the world. And all in the last 100 years, probably killing more people in that time than all the religions thru all history. Plus it seems in a typical communist takeover they kill a lot of the teachers, professionals, professors, politicians and landowners. (Many of whom supported the communists through the revolution.)

George, Garth set out this topic for discussion and asks what you think, pro or con, then proceeds to rip up johniam for replying? Hardly a way to win friends and influence folks. :D--> Some of the stuff he said was indeed common sense. But it was used also as cover to promote his own bigotries. I wonder what the reaction is going to be to the self-righteous, religious right's hegemony in another 6 or 8 years? From those who hate them, it will be pretty much the same reaction they had in the late '80s and '90s when the "self-righteous, religious right" first realized they actually had some power as a group. :D-->

Yes and no. A lot of times it is the same promise repeated over again, a reaffirmation. But a lot of times the promise is focused at different subjects and contexts.

The Way isn't the only ministry that says there are 900 promises of God. Years back when TWI was promoting it, I noticed in a couple christian bookstores that they had 7-8 and 900 promise type books for sale. I have somewhere in a dark place, a copy of a research weekend in the mid '70s, when the ladies of The Way of Indiana did on 800+ promises. (It's in the dark because they copied them on a photo sensitive copy paper that darkens when they are exposed to more light.) The promises are the simple ones that we as wayfers tend to take for granted, like: my peace I give to you, and walk in my love. There might be say 15 peace verses and 22 love verses, that would account for 37 promises of God. The ladies did a really good peace of work and I've thought I'd like to copy it but I'm afraid the copy machine lights will destroy the origionals. You might try looking in Christian bookstores, I'm sure they must still have such books.

:D--> :D--> :D--> WOW = Worried of Where..... Perfect! ;)--> Yes, laugther is good for the soul. (Very cleansing and healing.) Enjoy

More Classes; Witless Undersheperding Twig Bleedership Dealing in Adversity An updated class taught by Rev. RosyLie Rivenbawk Christian Feminine Sex Tapping The Way Tree Basic Keys To .... ? The Spurtual Contest, Attributes of Serpents Seed By the man, oh gawd who knows more about the Debbil and spurtual seeding than anybody else, the Revved Loy Craig Martindale New Books; Receeding The Holy Spirit Today The BOD'L Tell me So Lusting Sanctified The New Disfunctional Church Our Words Way God's Minimized Word Order My Steps In My Word Life Slimes Christians Should Be Preposterous The Thirteenth Diatribe A Harmonizing of the Gospel Quartet Living Vicariously Fun Demento's of Biblical Research Rise And Spandex (Sorry, It was a slow night. :D--> :D--> )

Doling out the Adversary The Way of Abundant Paupers Crass Jesus Christ is not Feared Jesus Christ our Premised Seed The FundTheWaytional Class The We'reyourIntermediary Crass The Advanced Crass Class Join The Way Cops II Today (FrankenCops?) We'll rebuild you into: Apostates, Profits, Evilangleists, Treacheries and Plaster'ems The Preponderous Word Over The World The Preposterous Word is um,.. Already Over The World The Decade of Verbal Abuse and Spitshowers

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