dabobbada

How Do I Handle Reproof on Greasespot?

Ohhh god,..................

I............

can't... cope!

It,....

it devastates me. It's like some ol' devil spirit slugged me right betwixed the ol' earballs.

I crawl over to a corner, assume a sitting fetal position, grab my blankee and suck my thumb and start stroking my nose. Sometimes I like to rock back and forth too.

I lose my appetite for days at a time, the idea of food in any form absolutely repulses me. In times like this I rarely eat more than eight or nine times a day.

Self esteem, I have none. I am reduced to the four year old child who, when dad was mad at me, had to go play in the basemment of the outhouse.

I am so filled with self loathing I pull out my cat-o-nine-tails, and start flagellating my back. I try, I flail, I flail, I cry out and try harder and flail some some more, it is so hard to flagellate when your back is against the wall. I am covered in a pile of shredded wallboard dust, insulation, and framing splinters. But the fresh air from outside mixed the plaster dust both delights and chokes the soul.

Yes, I'm starting to feel better. I break out of the gloom, I break out of the spiderwebs. (Where'd these come from? How long have I been in the corner?) I put on the teakettle just so I can built up some self esteem. I boil some eggs so I can break outta the shell. I put on Rodney Dangerfield.

Oh yes, I am definitely coming out of it and now I want revenge. I want e-vile revenge, I want bloody revenge, I want sweet revenge, I want freddy kreuger revenge, I need an aspirin. God, I also need a thesaurus.

I read and re-read the offending poster. I pick apart the weaknesses in his post until my hands get tweezer spasms and I must stop. My mind boils at a thousand miles a minute as I plot out a scalding reply. I want to put the fear of Bob in him. I want to reduce him to a smoking okie, like a texan on a lambchop. I want to make him wish he'd never left the comfort of the household of the way!

MuuuHaahahaaaa.....

Feeling ready now, I turn on my beast and power on the net.

I find the GreaseSpot.

I find the post:

OH YEAH!

Lal-Lay-Yo, you are dead wrong!!!

It wasn't "Jesus said something about taking the mote out of our own eye first." it was:

Quit trying to take the moat out of your neighbors eye when you got Jim Beam in your own eye!

.......SO THERE!

:D--> :D--> :D-->

Yeah HCW,

Don't you know we were the best, the holy ones who knew it, dare I say; the superior ones. Let the plodding ordinary christians do the plodding ordinary things.

[With the music of The Impossible Dream in the background]

We the Royal Knighthood of La Mancha would be tilting at the spiritual windmills.of The Enchanter to gain the "Golden Helmet" of Mambrino. Meanwhile, The Padre and his co-conspirators are playing with Dulcinea backstage.

(Beware the Knight of the Mirrors!)

Besides, ordinary christians really couldn't understand our advanced selves anyway.

Actually, I got along with regular christians quite well, though it was good to agree to avoid certain subjects with some folks. All born again are in a spiritual brotherhood of equals that can in no wise be broken.

Through all the self concratulatory rhetoric, you sort of ended up expecting we would end up on the hill at the base of the throne of heaven. All the other christians would be out in the suburbs somewhere.

(Can you imagine that VP and The Loy'd expect to get seats near the throne, next to Paul and Peter.)

quote:

---

posted by HCW

I wanted to help people, not just OUR people, they weren't OUR people anyways...

---

Amen to that. The good that was in twi was in the good christian hearts of those 'ordinary' wayfers who kept the real truth of God's Word. We were humble enough to know it was God and not us that was special. We wanted to do good with people because God had been so good with us.

But TWI had other plans for us.

Thinking of the picture with you in it, I know I remember seeing a young black man with similiar coordinated clothing, probably at HQ. You stood out in your quietly elegant way, and were not unnoticed.

:D-->

quote:

---

Originally posted by satori001:

I dunno. Here's a hypothetical. If I were the Corps Coordinator at Emporia, and I had a young woman under my responsibility come back from LEAD with terrible injuries, and depression, and on prescription pain killers (at the very least) - I might have two choices, give or take:

1. We make every effort to nurse her back to health right here on the premises, arrange for a good doctor, and physical therapy, and surround her with the love of God in Christ, and all the longsuffering and believing of "God's best," the Way Corps, setting a great example for the entire Corps of _unconditional _love - yeah, "No one left behind!"

Decisions, decisions. Hmm, WWJD? (What would Jesus Judas do?)

---

Virtually every other christian church in the US would consider charity giving and helping people as things on their must do list. Especially so if a member of the congregation were injured while participating in some church sponsored activity.

They would do everything they could do and then help you connect with others that would help you.

Yeah, VP was pretty slick about that, He said let the others provide soup kitchens and help the poor, we are going to teach people the word. If TWI helped it's discards at all, it helped them get some sort of welfare assistance. The last few years, even HQ staff was directed to get government assistence for health problems as I recall.

Scout Finch,

I once worked with a man who recieved a head injury in a Jeep accident in Korea. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, but the accident made him a manic depressive. As long as he took his meds, he was OK.

So, Soques knows the origions of the skunkpelt then.

I guess that shows how dumb he is! :D-->

(A la, I'm just dealing with your homemade trailer here so I cut out the rest of A la's post.)

quote:

---

Originally posted by A la prochaine:

OK, the homemade trailer part intrigues me because back in the mid 80's I believe it was, my father was travelling down a highway with a load of wood in a homemade trailer.

As he was travelling, he crossed a bridge and there was a bump in the road where the abuttment was on the bridge. When the trailer hit the bump, the trailer flew off the hitch.

Anyhow, shortly after this my father had to attend a 2 day inquest and his trailer was confiscated as well as the hitch of the vehicle at the time of the accident.

My uncle also was called in as well to testify because he was the one who had built the trailer.

I do not have all the details of the accident, but I know that the hitch was tested and retested under extreme stress tests to see if it was defective. It wasn't.

Yet, I know for a fact that laws were changed after this to make sure that certain specs are enforced regarding trailers.

---

I think most trailer accidents not based on bad loading start with a bump. Either a hole, or a big rock can send one side of the trailor airborn. If you hit a hole or rock just right, it will also shove the trailor sideways. (Because they are lighter than cars.) These actions can levitate the load for a second and shift it from balanced to unbalanced, which then oscillates and fishtales on you taking you out of control.

Such bumping can also puts a lot of stress on the ball and coupler and can loosen and break them.

Just so we are using the same language, here are the proper definitions.

Hitch - the steel frame that holds the ball to the vehicle.

Ball - Bolted to hitch, attaches vehicle to the trailer coupler.

Trailer coupler/ball coupler - the coupler attaches over and locks to the ball.

Trailer tongue - the trailer frame coming out the front of the trailer, attached to the coupler.

You said the hitch was good, but didn't mention the ball. I'm assuming the ball was good too, they don't fail unless the bolt gets loose but you should notice that when you couple the trailer.

So it appears the problem was in the trailer frame or the coupler. If the frame failed, it would have to be some weld broke, which would be your uncle's fault.

For a failure of the coupler, I can only think of two things. couplers are designed to be bolted to the tongue, most are bolted but some folks will weld them in place. Both are good, but there is the rare break of the coupler/tongue hold. remember all the stress energies of vehicle/trailer dynamic are centered on the ball-coupler. Failure there would again fall on your uncle.

The most common failure is with the tightening knob on the coupler. Inside, as you crank that knob, a cog is supposed to tighten against the ball so the coupler stays put on the ball. It always seems to take way too many cranks to tighten it and if you don't check it by trying to pull the coupler off the ball, it might still be loose.

You always have to double and triple check to see if it is really cranked down tight. Then check it again, if the cog ain't tight, the coupler can bounce up and down and in and out and loosen or break the cog. At that point you are pulling a lethal weapon. The person who tightens the ball is of course guilty one for failure there.

I haven't run a trailer in 7 - 8 years, but I went shopping with my brother when he bought a new Suburban and helped him find a new ball mount. I noticed there all sorts of innovations in hitches, balls, and couplers these days. There are better adjustable ball mounts to make sure the trailer is level and more solid coupler locking systems, this is very good.

For what it is worth, said brother still has two of dad's homemade trailers. :D-->

I don't know if this helps or not, but it just about had to be something with the coupler.

Trailers are quirky, skittish things that have 100 different ways to go wrong on you under the right conditions.

Here's some history trivia, until the late '40s, the national speed limit was 35mph, towing trailers was not a problem.

Til the late '50s, the speed limit was 55, people were expert enough with trailers to use common sense.

In the '60s, the limit went to 65, and on the new Interstate System, they allowed 75mph. Signs started limiting trailers to 45 mph.

In '74, gas cost brought the speed limit to 55 again and trailers were still 45.

In recent years we can go fast again but most cars are too small to pull a trailer. people wisely use vans. ;)-->

quote:

---

Originally posted by excathedra:

dearest howard, i humbly say to you that this accident (and i mean, accident) was not your fault and neither was rochelle's suicide in any way your fault

this poor baby had psychological problems and soul heartaches long before the lead accident

i see how things progressed and i'm sick and sorry she did not get counseling in TWI for her darling life before LEAD, before the corps program, after LEAD, etc.

and then making her leave the only family she knew was the final straw in her depression

the LEAD accident did not "cause" her depression

TWI was not equipped to handle real problems of the mind, soul. take it from one who knows.

i just want you to realize that the LEAD story and the story of this beautiful young girl are not exactly one in the same. it is a part, yes

more later

---

I was fortunate in that I was usually around men who tried to visit the sick and comfort the broken hearted. (real lucky I guess.) Though many meant well, all they could do at best was offer God's love and beg you to build your believing.

As the years rolled on, it turned more to the pious platitudes of the self-righteous perfected priesthood until we achieved the High 43rd Order of Gestapo Godliness in the '90s.

It is amazing to me to this day that they did such a good job of hiding their evil works, both to young women and to those who didn't get healed (both mentally and physically,) as TWI thought they should have. they used them up and threw them away.

And I didn't find out until WayDale and Greasespot.

Damn them to Hell.

HCW,

I'm sure the trailer was well built, anyone who would know how to do one, would now how it had to be done right.

Yes, a loosepacked load could go airborn with a bump and shift possibly to the rear. A trailer load must have a 10% or 200 lb. weight bias to the front or the trailer will fishtale badly.

With Kevin, I'll agree he was a good lead man on your say so. Only he could relate his experience with trucks and trailers. I do know he reacted properly to the situation once it came into being.

Even though you stated he was close to the edge of the road, it was the gust of wind which blew you off the road. It is very likely that no matter where he was in the lane, the wind would have blown him off the road. Having towed a number of trailers and owned several vans including two '67 VW splitwindow vans, I know what the wind can do.

With all my experience, the wind still surprises me at times.

Thank you Sunesis, for showing us some of the person that Rochelle was. I weep for her because she so deserved the better she desired and never got.

They stripped her of her dignity, her faith, and her (believed) family. They took away her reason for living and in such, her humanity and worth. She died in a stark sterile remote hotel room feeling she had been crushed to nothingness by TWI.

Satori, this is where your anger at TWI shood be focused. It wasn't the accident, because accidents happen. It is what they did with the people after the accident that is reprehensible.

HCW,

I'm behind your assessment 100%

quote:

---

Originally posted by vickles:

Sometimes the best way is to let it go...no one has to be right or wrong. No one has to have the last word.

---

I do think that is the root of the problem, vickles. ;)-->

Again, thank you HCW for your story. I think you have been quite detailed in the accounting of it, giving a number of details most people would never have noticed.

HCW said he was a city boy, well, I was born and bred a farm boy. From long before my birth, my dad used trailers for many things. His trailers were similiar to theTWI trailer in that they were made from old car rear axles and tires. You use the drive shaft as the forward frame to the trailer hitch, and weld on a couple steel angle bars to make an A frame for sturdiness.

Any competent backyard mechanic with the materials and a welder can make a good safe one in a few hours. To make it legal, you take it to a local license branch to be inspected to see it meets state laws.

Dad's trailers had about a 4x8 bed area, the sideboards were 10 or 12 inches high. he used them to haul coal, cordwood, furniture, roto tillers, anything you could imagine. He made a lot of money and saved a lot of money too with those trailers.

Trailers are useful but quirky devices that require things be done just exactly so, otherwise a hundred things can go very wrong very fast. Even when done right, things inside can shift around, and wind and road conditions can cause them to go out of control and take you with it.

From my dad's teaching and from a juvenile lifetime of feeling the sensations in the seat of my pants, I could tell exactly how a trailer was riding, but I also had a similiar experience to this story topic, I used the same corrective maneuver, and fortunately had no problems. It still put my adrenaline in overdrive though.

I have also seen right in front of my face, one of those 20 plus foot trailers like landscape teams use, swerve for no reason that I saw, go vertical standing on it's nose, and then roll itself and the truck towing it three times into the median. This was in steady easy traffic on a brand new very smooth road.

Does anyone recall, it used to say on many a highway sign:

Vehicles towing trailers

Speed limit 45 mph.

There was a reason for that.

What I am saying is you can know all the rules and be well experienced with trailers and can still have an accident a dozen different ways. I don't know how much experience Kevin had with trucks and trailers, but in my opinion when everything went wrong, he did everything right. There were just too many things working against him, both man made and natural.

As to Kevin being distracted with the paperwork? How many times have I seen women driving down the interstate putting on their makeup? How many times have I seen men doing the same while reading a book or newpaper? Or how many times have I seen both men and women doing 70 with a phone glued to their ears, or eating a gooey cheeseburger? And there are many other examples.

Distractions while driving is a common problem that seems to get worse all the time. I'm not making excuses, I am saying just about everyone does it at times.

One person here has asked a couple times, "wasn't it against the law to haul those people in the pickup bed?" Back in the early '80s, probably half the states had such laws, and half not. High population citified states likely would have had the law by then.

The rural population states would tend to resist it until forced by insurance or the feds. Country folks, many times teach a child of 8 or 10 to drive a tractor or truck on the farm for needful things. They also teach kids how to be safe with said tractors, trucks, trailers and various dangerous machineries.

A thing I've noticed here is that most of the judgements are being made from our twenty something plus additional years of hindsight, opinions and prejudices. Have we forgotten what it was like when we were young, full of energy and indestructible?

In our youths, we tended to do many things that would make us shudder today. Those of us who became hippies did even more and those of who were adventurous did some really totally stupid things. Also in those days, there were a lot less rules and regulations simply because america was the land of the free.

Note:

To those of you who have never been pecked by a duck, believe me, they can hurt. :D-->

quote:

---

Originally posted by rascal:

Your point is well taken Satori, (I don`t want to fight with you, you can think circles around me)

Fear not rascal, Satori has no more intelligence than anyone here. He is simply over educated, and way too imaginative. Like a lawyer, he has learned to be good with words. Like a lawyer, he dazzles with seemingly brilliant bullcrap, and distracts by diverting to side issues. He uses obscure and contrarian imaginings to confound good and wise things simply to prove his own superiorty.

If there is one thing I have learned in this life, it is that some men can say great and wonderful words that persuade men to follow any viewpoint even unto death.

With all their great imaginings and words, they are still dead wrong.

Do not fear their vain words, they only mean they have more to answer to God for. ;)-->

I would rather see the messenger welcomed and made to feel comfortable, rather than feeling under attack.

The guy is trying to tell a very difficult story, he is trying to tell about a woman who placed her faith and trust in an organization, who was hurt, and then cast out when she was persieved as a burden.

A life tossed away, that is the big picture....but it can`t be told because you are so busy trying to make hcw see culpabiliy....there is plenty to go around....

He is not ready for that, you are not going to make him see that.....in your effort to be *right* the tragic story degenerated into forum wars, and in the end.....the *truth* has once again been lost.....

Neither your purpose nor his has been served, and something important was lost, that, imo is the bigger picture.

Amen to that Rascal

---

To my dearest Krysilis for those dangerous ducks. ;)-->

Get the Duck, Before they get you

quote:

---

Oh yeah and my birthday is Adar I 30, 5727.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

---

5727 eh,...

Abi, it sounds like you are a woman many years ahead of your time. :)-->

To every man his own Rosanna and his own Banana-nana within.

Thanks HCW,

When this is finished, someone ought to edit out all the non HCW, non accident stuff and place it in the My Story Forum.

Dang Pat, y'all get better now!

You don't want Craig or Rosy-Lie smiling and ruining their perfect Holier-than-Thou-Scowls, do you.

Why it would mess up their whole day, have to call in the make-up people from the VPW VIP Sanctified Holier Conquerors of The Weird Opium Ova The World Auditorium to patch up their faces.

Prayin'for Ya Bud! :D-->

Will.... nowww.........

fer a first date?

Go over to a puddle an' rinse yer shoes clean, if ya really want to impress 'er, kick off yer shoes an' rinse yer socks too.

Then brush th' dried mud from yore cuffs an' knees.

Take off yore PeterBilt belt buckle and replace it with somethin' more romantic like a huntin' buckle, unless of course you know she likes them big-rig trucks.

Mosey on over to th' hamper an dig thru it 'til you find a t-shirt without too much mustard, relish or beer drippings on it. If'n it don't smell too ripe, it'l do.

Take off that greasy "I'm Your Sex Machine" cap, an' put on a less greasy Budweiser cap. If'n yuh really wanna impress her, reach way back 'n' pullout yore prized black Dale Earnhart #3 racing cap. (Make sure yew warshed yer hair maybe this week if'n yuh gonna wear Dale's cap, may God bless 'im.)

Now go outta th' trailer an' look at yore available transportation so's yew kin be Prince Charmin to yer Cindyreller. Thuh Gremlin is up on blocks 'cuz th' tires are way past bald. Th' '69 Dodge Dart, though a purdy dulled dayglow orange, don't hold it's water too good these days. Th' '57 Chevy dump truck don't run good unless ya keep th' speed up above 78 miles per hour, thet might make her nervous on th' twisty dirt back roads. Danged wimmens got weak stomaches on them whoop-de-doo roads.

I guess that brings it on down to th' '47Jeep with no top an' th' springs stickin'out of th' seat, ... naw. Thuh '71 Ford pick-em-up, nope, it's th' work truck, don't wanna move all those lunch wrappers, beer cans an' chicken bones outta the passenger footwell and seat.

Well... that leaves my hillbilly limo, the '61 Corvair Deluxe Greenbriar Van:

Kick out th' 11 cats thet live in it an' untape th' plastic windows to air it out some... run th' win'shield washer soz I kin see out front. yeah, this'l impress her, shucks, I might git lucky in th' back seat tonite......(Glad I wore th Dale Earnhart cap, even though i ain't warshed this month.)

Hmmmm.. cain't see the Jeep or Gremlin, oughta mow th' grass sometime soon.....

Yepper, startin tuh git ex-cited, its'a gonna be a good nite. Now should we go to Couzin Tyrone's Lard Fried BBQ Soul Food Shack or...

Cowboy Fred's Hillbilly Heaven Bar with the free peanuts and pickles. God I love them Red Hotz Weiners and Pickled Pigs Feet.

I gotta go with ex10 and Radar on that they believed what they said. I watched VP up close and very closely too many times in the early '70s, when he was teaching in the BRC. The intensity when he was really into teaching some great point, and the frustration when he didn't think he was getting the greatness of the idea across like he wanted too.

He believed what he was teaching.

The problem was he rationalised that the grace of God so covered the sin nature that he could go ahead and sin that grace may abound. -->

Remember the those passionate statements VP would say like: "Oh people, if you would only believe the greatness of the grace that God has given you!"

Well, that was his license to use and abuse young women. Just push grace a little here and healing a little there. Grace will cover your sin, God will forgive you, again and again and again. Here a little and there a little on the promises of God.

Rationalise it enough and you start to believe it, then it becomes doctrine.

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh, why it was the weakness that man had and it placed good ol' Godly Paul at the level of VP.

But VP knew his freedom in Christ to have free sex would anger and repulse ordinary believers, so he taught them a form of standard theology to keep them happy and reserved the great freedom revelations for his "spiritually mature," initiated ones, his inner circle of true believers.

The outer circle, fed pablum to keep them happy, the inner circle with the deeper secret truths, why it's :

The Waybylon Mystery Religion.

That's hypocracy.

I'm sure there was times when he was stretching things to fit his rationalizations that he knew he was wrong. But by the time I came along in '73, I believe VP believed all of it. From the milk and pablum he fed us babes in the word to spiritually mature secrets he taught the initiated ones of his inner orgy circle.

When I was looking at WayDale and GreaseSpot, I met a lady who had been on staff at HQ. One day she told me about a conversation she with a member of the extended Weirwille family while on staff. this woman had been the last person to visit VP on the bus just before he died.

VP was frustrated. He couldn't figure out what was that he had done in his life that allowed the cancer spirits to come in which were killing him.

That meant he couldn't figure out what he had done wrong. In other words he had been completely godly in his own eyes.

Paul covered abusing grace in several ways in several places in the epistles, but most notably in Romans,

Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid

If they did so, who says it necessarily happened in Ohio, or even the US?

They are after all, a sly and sneaky group of evildoers.

Just so you know........

I had spent several hours making a long reply to Garths stuff and when I went to log onto the net, something crashed and it went the way of lost sox and car keys.

Damn this crap sometimes!

I'm feeling poorly at the moment, my health sux and I never know when I will have a good day or not, so I can't at this moment say when I can reply. It may be a day, a week, even a month unfortunately, I never know. (I'm still pretty tired from the pre-election political fights. ) I always have to watch my energy levels, and consider carefully how I spend them. :(-->

I am very tired and my eyes can't focus now, I hope to reply more soon.

quote:

---

Garth bragged:

:D--> If being a pain in the a$$ is an art form, then I'm Michelangelo. ;)-->

---

Sorry Garth, we could have had fun with it. :D-->

I'll be making my replies in boldtype to differentiate them from the person being quoted.

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Aar:

Dabob,

I have a little different take on the whole Communist/religion thingy than Garth.

I'm quite sure that Communism _did_ replace religion in the Soviet Union and China. And that National Socialism performed the same function in Germany. It _was_ their religion. The state became the provider for all of life's needs, just as ALMIGHTY GOD had earlier. They changed the script a little, but the bottom line remained the same "Pay your obeisance to God, or suffer the consequences". They just had a little different form of theology. The coersion and brutality remained pretty regular for religious zealotry, albeit horrendously more efficient, due to modern technology.

Anytime "faith" trumps reason, I get jumpy. Whether it's to an invisible Holy Thunderer, or to a benevolent, vague, but all powerful "State", rest assured, trouble is brewing.

And just "for fun" (ala Roy), here's a snippet from Richard Dawkins to chew on:

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html

---

George Aar,

I am pretty much in agreement with you, the states became the religions. The communists outlawed, persecuted, imprisoned and "liquidated" people from all religions under their control, and Marxist/Leninist communism was proclaimed the state and the religion.

The nazis did the same thing with national socialism. They also had a peculiar form of superhuman ancester worship many of them played with. A nice little mystical wetdream of Vikings, voluptuous Valkyries, and Valhalla for the slain heros to go to.

Between them they have killed maybe 120 to 150 million people.

Mr. Aar said...

Anytime "faith" trumps reason, I get jumpy. Whether it's to an invisible Holy Thunderer, or to a benevolent, vague, but all powerful "State", rest assured, trouble is brewing.

Somewhere, there is a balance of reason, state, faith and whatever else figures into the equation. I know, I've swung past the center so damn many times. ;)-->

I read your link to the humanist scientist., Richard Dawkins, thanks, it was an enjoyable read. Didn' t VP once say something to the effect of the supreme court had declared humanism to be a religion? I remembered that when I saw "Published in the Humanist" So be careful ol' boy, I have it on VP's authority you're reading a religious document. :D-->

From the early '60s junior high on, I have loved reading Science Digest and similiar science mags. The universe is a fascinating place and when science works it correctly, there are amazingly awesome things to be learned. One of the things I liked about TWI was that in the PFAL sections on Guinness chapters 1 and 2 where they...Just kidding, Genesis 1 and 2 where you could blend bible and science without contradiction.

I was able to enjoy both the Bible and Science Digest, both Orientalisms of the Bible and Discovery Magazine.

Ol'DocVP said, I think in PFAL that a true scientist could not beleive in god. Spirit could not be measured, so you go by by the five senses and rational reasoning. Mr. Dawkins fits this to a "T." The first and last parts of his paper not only make that point, but screams in his frustration that his science is not a faith.

Dawkins says...

and one that I often encounter as both a scientist and a rationalist — is an accusation of zealotry and bigotry in scientists themselves as great as that found in religious people.

Reading his stuff, he really is a zealous bigot, obviously as enthused of his science as we were of "the word" in our time. Whether he likes it or not, science really is his faith. I don't have a problem with it, I would encourage him to enjoy it to the utmost, have a ball. He himself though doesn't like the association of the terminology.

I enjoyed his attempts at describing the awe of science:

Dawkins said...

Uplift, however, is where science really comes into its own. All the great religions have a place for awe, for ecstatic transport at the wonder and beauty of creation. And it's exactly this feeling of spine-shivering, breath-catching awe — almost worship — this flooding of the chest with ecstatic wonder, that modern science can provide. And it does so beyond the wildest dreams of saints and mystics.

The best of words, however well strung together and inspired, can seem dreadfully lacking to the greatness of what you have seen with your own eyes and felt in your own heart. As I read Dawkins words above, I pictured him in his head, seeing a magical mind picture of a full color Hubble telescope image of the Horsehead Nebula or the heavenly glowing gasses at the center of a nearby galaxy.

You're entranced and words just aren't enough. The love of science in me, mindmelds with the love of science in him, and for a moment, we are of one soul.

Unfortunately, shortly after that:

Dawkins said...

I do feel very strongly about the way children are brought up...

Which brings me to my point about mental child abuse....

There are opinions about the cosmos and the world that children, once grown, will presumably be in a position to evaluate for themselves. Religion is the one field in our culture about which it is absolutely accepted, without question — without even noticing how bizarre it is — that parents have a total and absolute say in what their children are going to be, how their children are going to be raised, what opinions their children are going to have about the cosmos, about life, about existence. Do you see what I mean about mental child abuse?

Here Mr. Dawkins is showing major bigotry and socialist mindset, but he goes farther. He talks of forcing evolution into religious education classes

Dawkins said...

The children would look at the spellbinding wonders of the living kingdoms and would consider Darwinism alongside the creationist alternatives and make up their own minds.

What worries me is not the question of equal time but that, as far as I can see, children in the United Kingdom and the United States are essentially given no time with evolution yet are taught creationism (whether at school, in church, or at home).

Mr. Dawkins is looking at a british view of forcing darwinism into apparently country wide religious classes. In the US, some school may have optional religious classes available. But his point is he doesn't think enough evolution is taught in school so force more on, even in special religious classes.

(That's too close to Orwell's 1984 think/speak to me. If you are a democrat and Clinton is in, the doublespeak may be just fine with you, but what happens when Bush comes in with his own version of doublespeak? It's funy that Orwell wrote 1984 as a warning, but many look on it as a guidebook.)

Mr. Dawkins scares me here, in the great middle section of the paper, he slams on religion, he slams on parents, he slams on educators, and on the children and calls it mental child abuse. He clearly wants rip kids away from all the vile bad stuff and stuff their little noggins with what he decides is truth.

Doesn't that chill you? Send a chill up your spine?

It's pure socialist elitism.

He has all the answers.

Your mind is ruined, but he can save your children.

Sorry, buddy, I ain't going to church with you.

Something I have seen in little snippets here and there is more scientists claiming the grand marvels of science they are discovering are helping them to see the infinite mind of God as the great architect of the universe. More of our scientists are willing to admit they believe in God.

For the kids that Mr. Dawkins is so concerned about. not having the "proper indoctrination"? In my own youth, my friends growing up with me, and the kids I've known since then, both in and out of TWI. They have a good basic understanding but casual believing attitude of their parents religion. By high school, they have a good basic understanding of evolution with a casual believing attitude toward it too.

And anyone who goes to college gets a strong belief of Darwinism, thinks socialism will cure all the world's ills, and thinks that homosexuals are ok...

At least until I get a little gay and make a pass at him,

Then he jumps back 25 feet...

and shivers while turning green.

:D--> :D--> :D-->

(Sorry Trefor) ;)-->

Mr. Dawkins has his good points but is an elitist, socialist, zealot, bigot.

Both science and the Bible are wonderful, and can work together.

Our kids are doing just fine in spite of everything.

:)-->

I'll be making my replies in boldtype to differentiate them from the person being quoted.

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Aar:

Oh, and BTW,

If the ACLU wasn't around, who would be out there defending The Bill of Rights? The government? The legal system? The church?

For all their faults and excesses (which there may be), I'm glad somebody cares enough about the constitution to do something to make sure it's enforced.

You may fire at will...

---

You may fire at will...

:D--> :D--> :D-->

I only do that to folks who are looking for a fight. ;)-->

If you ask a halfway honest question, I'll do my best to give a halfassed honest answer. :D-->

When I was young, growing up in rural Indiana, the government, the legal system, and the church, all would gang up to defend The Bill of Rights. Old codgers would argue politics so vehemently they'd turn purple and and you'd swear they'd come to blows any second. But when they were done, they'd agree they disagreed, and swear to defend to the death each other's right to their opinion. That was the old america.

Sadly it is no longer that way, everyone is so polarized it is their way or the highway and.. die M-F'er.

I'm not intirely against the ACLU, they do a lot of good work for folks who need certain help, and who often can't afford it too. A wayfer friend of mine was with the ACLU back in the '70s. Many ACLU lawyers really want to help people. At least they did back then.

I don't follow the ACLU these days but a couple of my friends who do, have noted to me they in no wise defend all the bill of rights. They have never protected the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, and there are a couple more they are notably infrequent on. I think the 4th and 10th but don't quote me on it.

Trouble is there is a group within them who want to push things well past the reasonable to the ridiculous and the sublime. It is a good thing to make sure a church and state don't get in cahoots together, it is not a bad thing to prevent a state from wrapping itself in God's cloak, but it is rather absurd to attempt to totally seperate god from government.

It is not in the nature or traditions, or the deep soul of most people to go to such extremes. Most people have a sense of god kinship and they feel they are being pushed too far. There is a backlash coming.

A headline I saw today is proclaiming Micheal Moore and the Hollywood and media elites, by pushing so hard against Bush and for Kerry, actually helped Bush get elected. The source was liberal. Here are some recent ACLU directed headlines:

Florida senator swears he'll help Scouts

TheArticle

The American Legion blasts Pentagon for giving in to ACLU

TheArticle

Congress gets into ACLU cross brouhaha

TheArticle

700 lawyers ready to fight ACLU

TheArticle

Is the Declaration of Independence unconstitutional?

TheArticle

If you read the articles, you would see they are about minor things: A beloved cross in a park. The Declaration of Independence mentions God so you can't show it in class. Boy Scouts on a military base. Whether Christmas things are OK or not in schools.

Little things, but deeply embeded in the american heritage and soul. Many americans are fed up over the continued attacks on their traditions and values and are saying enough is enough.

The ACLU needs to realize they've done quite a bit of what they wanted to accomplish. Thru fear of ACLU reprisal, government employees make it a religion to be antichrist in government today. But they aren't satisfied, they keep looking for more and smaller points to tackle, offending more and more people to please a few and fewer, or even one. The cross in the park for example, one man is offended at it, and a whole city and area are furious at him and signing all sorts of petitions against it's removal.

It would be wise of the ACLU to back off of the extremeism or the backlash will come after them like an avalance down the slopes of Mt. Everest. Consider those ten or so states with the gay marriage issues. They all voted no by margins of 67% to 90% against them. Even nice little guaranteed liberal blue states like my Michigan.

George, you and I both love the orient. (I spent one year in Thailand and two years in Okinawa in the early '70s.) I love and respect the people, the culture, and had a long time interest in their religions. If the ACLU were in Japan or Thailand right now, what do you think they would be doing all to the public shrines, buddhas, prayer wheels and the like?

How would that affect their heritage, traditions and culture. How would the locals react to them and their court backed preachy ways?

Many americans are so fed up with the smug extremism of the one way, that they are being made extremists the other way.

Hey Garth,

How's the mutual admiration society today? :D-->

Got an energy spell and been replying to posts all night. (sigh! I wish I had more of them.)

I'm kinda posting in an order so I'll have some fun for you too in a while if I keep 'er up. :)-->

I'll be making my replies in boldtype to differentiate them from the person being quoted.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sudo:

Bob,

ReL__"Back to Harvey, he said he doesn't believe in gods or goddesses or the afterlife. Yet he prays, because of the known scientific "laws" and humanistic principals....In my book, if you're praying, your believing in something, no matter how convoluted you reason it out."__

I have to agree with you! That didn't make any sense to me either. But still.. if that's what _HE_ feels comfortable with, that's OK with me. I bow my head for instance while people are praying. It's showing respect.

sudo

---

Showing respect is nodding your regard for other peoples humanity and customs. My dad always taught me to respect others. Whupped my butt if I didn't.

To this day I enjoy meeting folks and learning of their cultures.

Harvey is a peculiar duck all right, praying is believing even if it is to yourself. Most people worship the dollar, personal comfort, and sex from what I've seen lately, and not necessarily in that order either. :)-->

Do you still do the computer work for that church? I still remember the site you posted once, it's a very well thought out and beautful church. You say you bow your head, do you attend services, or is that when a prayer happens near you?