dabobbada

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posted by dmiller

Wonder if there was a "designated sailor" on board? ;)-->

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:D--> :D--> :D-->

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posted by GarthP:

I was inviting constructive criticism. Heck, I was even inviting negative criticism. Whatever anybody wanted to post either positive or negative. But you ought to know that just because I invited comments, doesn't gaurentee, nor requires that the ideas/concepts given won't be challenged.

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I am feeling too poorly to give the responses tonight that I would like to. After all, while you may have met a few athiests, I was raised by one. Hopefully I'll have more energy before this thread goes the way of alll threads, but I must say this now:

It is one thing to challenge your imagined opponents, it is quite another to mock them.

Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the wisest guy of all?

Why Garth, it is you of course!

Sorry, but that is my long term impression of you ol' bud. Everybody in this life eventually picks a belief system, whether christian, redneck, buddhist, communist, businessman, hippie, blue collar, academician or athiest. He settles into his favored cult, and surrounds himself with likeminded cultists. They congratulate and pat each other on the back and say how wise are we. Misery truly does love company.

But Garth, it seems it just isn't enough to just give your belief system answers, but you always seem to have this need to punctuate it with some mockery which you desire to be percieved as humor.

I guess the mockery works pretty good, by the time I read it, I've pretty much forgotten your rather pedestrian reply.

I can respect Unca Hairy and P-Mosh, they obviously believe what they speak and reply too. You, dear Br'er Garth, seem to set up your threads to show off your brilliance against the opposing and ignorant masses, followed by a nice little coup de grace of delicious mockery with a fine whine.

You are not as impressive as you think you are, ol' Bud.

As for Harvey, I see nothing more than a typical bunch of pious athiest platitudes strung together in a nice coherant stream of thought. Pretty much like TWI did for their arguments to make them sound good.

I have read pretty much the same reasonings used by the ACLU any time they throw a lawsuit at some government unit to force christianity out. Now the ACLU is attacking the US military for supporting boy scouts and a state abstinence site because some teen girls credit God for giving them the moral strength to abstain.

Back to Harvey, he said he doesn't believe in gods or goddesses or the afterlife. Yet he prays, because of the known scientific "laws" and humanistic principals. Pychological reasons really, my dad, an athiest, didn't pray to nothing. In my book, if you're praying, your believing in something, no matter how convoluted you reason it out.

Harvey says we are lucky enough to live in a country where we have freedom of religion and from religion. This is true and I agree with it.

But then after having sat himself on the high moral ground, he then gets his digs in on catholics (must'a been raised as one) and religion in general. Then he pulls out a few more pious athiest platitudes to finish. Again, it very much reminds me of the typical well rehearsed TWI spiel.

He really said nothing new, You've heard it all before. If you spent any time in TWI at all, you learned how to set up an argument in your favor. Are there bad nuns? Yes, but what is the ratio of bad to good nuns? Are there bad Priests, what is their bad to good ratio. Are there good athiests? Yes but how many bad ones are there out there who believing in nothing, make themselves subject to no morals and set themselves no bounds for low and evil works. (See how I reset the parameters a little and get the opposite result?)

Shirley Harvey is proselytizing his un-religion just as we did our VPWeirwillisms. (And don't call me surely.)

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johniam said:

Seriously, he and others who claim not to believe in "God, gods, or godesses" may not be called religious, but they still have a belief system, and IMO their belief system is just as capable of causing wars, etc. as is any religion.

And GarthP2000 replied:

Johniam,

And history overall backs your claim up ... how?

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How about them communists, Garth?

They claim there is no god, but the state replaces god and the political system is the religion.

I guess no one expects the Stalin, Mao, or Uncle Ho inquisition either.

Russia - estimated 30 to 50 million dead

China - another 50 to 70 mil

Several million by Communists in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

Plus a dead cast of many more from various communist plagued countries around the world.

And all in the last 100 years, probably killing more people in that time than all the religions thru all history. Plus it seems in a typical communist takeover they kill a lot of the teachers, professionals, professors, politicians and landowners. (Many of whom supported the communists through the revolution.)

George,

Garth set out this topic for discussion and asks what you think, pro or con, then proceeds to rip up johniam for replying?

Hardly a way to win friends and influence folks.

:D-->

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George Aar said:

It seems a shame that what I would consider "common sense" would even have to be voiced as if it's an edgey, controversial opinion. But such is the state of our current political culture, I guess.

Kinda reminds me of the paranoid, conformist '50s.

And then there was the over-reaction to that period in the '60s. I wonder what the reaction is going to be to the self-righteous, religious right's hegemony in another 6 or 8 years?

geo.

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Some of the stuff he said was indeed common sense. But it was used also as cover to promote his own bigotries.

I wonder what the reaction is going to be to the self-righteous, religious right's hegemony in another 6 or 8 years?

From those who hate them, it will be pretty much the same reaction they had in the late '80s and '90s when the "self-righteous, religious right" first realized they actually had some power as a group.

:D-->

Yes and no.

A lot of times it is the same promise repeated over again, a reaffirmation. But a lot of times the promise is focused at different subjects and contexts.

The Way isn't the only ministry that says there are 900 promises of God. Years back when TWI was promoting it, I noticed in a couple christian bookstores that they had 7-8 and 900 promise type books for sale.

I have somewhere in a dark place, a copy of a research weekend in the mid '70s, when the ladies of The Way of Indiana did on 800+ promises. (It's in the dark because they copied them on a photo sensitive copy paper that darkens when they are exposed to more light.)

The promises are the simple ones that we as wayfers tend to take for granted, like: my peace I give to you, and walk in my love. There might be say 15 peace verses and 22 love verses, that would account for 37 promises of God.

The ladies did a really good peace of work and I've thought I'd like to copy it but I'm afraid the copy machine lights will destroy the origionals.

You might try looking in Christian bookstores, I'm sure they must still have such books.

:D--> :D--> :D-->

WOW = Worried of Where.....

Perfect! ;)-->

Yes, laugther is good for the soul.

(Very cleansing and healing.)

Enjoy

More Classes;

Witless Undersheperding

Twig Bleedership

Dealing in Adversity

An updated class taught by Rev. RosyLie Rivenbawk

Christian Feminine Sex

Tapping The Way Tree

Basic Keys To .... ?

The Spurtual Contest,

Attributes of Serpents Seed

By the man, oh gawd who knows more about the Debbil and spurtual seeding than anybody else, the Revved Loy Craig Martindale

New Books;

Receeding The Holy Spirit Today

The BOD'L Tell me So

Lusting Sanctified

The New Disfunctional Church

Our Words Way

God's Minimized Word

Order My Steps In My Word

Life Slimes

Christians Should Be Preposterous

The Thirteenth Diatribe

A Harmonizing of the Gospel Quartet

Living Vicariously

Fun Demento's of Biblical Research

Rise And Spandex

(Sorry, It was a slow night. :D--> :D--> )

Doling out the Adversary

The Way of Abundant Paupers Crass

Jesus Christ is not Feared

Jesus Christ our Premised Seed

The FundTheWaytional Class

The We'reyourIntermediary Crass

The Advanced Crass Class

Join The Way Cops II Today

(FrankenCops?)

We'll rebuild you into:

Apostates, Profits, Evilangleists, Treacheries and Plaster'ems

The Preponderous Word Over The World

The Preposterous Word is um,..

Already Over The World

The Decade of Verbal Abuse and Spitshowers

The Way Living in Lust

Rascal,

Your post shows a unique and loving relationship with a wonderful and smart horse there. Please remember all the good times you had with Lady. There certainly were many fond memories for all your family to rejoice in.

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My grief isn`t just that I gave her the feed that killed her....but also that I let the vet hurt her...I feel so bad that I didn`t bring her home...like she asked...

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Grieving is a necessary part of the loss of anyone or anything loved, and you need to let it play out in your soul. But what you said in the quoted part is guilt. Guilt is an evil worm that will tear at your heart and can cause physical and emotional illness, please guard your heart against that.

I am certain you did not know the feed you fed Lady was contaminated.

Having been raised on farms and in rural communties, I do know that feed contamination sometimes happens, and you usually find out when animals die. You are not at fault or guilty of it, because you didn't know, bad things happen in life.

(Not trying to belittle your loss, but it seems to me I recall the digestive systems of horses, compared to other animals, are very sensitive to bad foreign factors to begin with, and it can easily go mortal with them.)

You took Lady to the Vet because Veterinarians are the best bet to save her. And I am sure he did the best he could. In spite of the great help Vets have been to the health and well being of many animals, I have yet ever to see or hear of an animal that didn't want to get out of the office and get back to home sweet home.

Lady would probably have died on the way back or shortly after you got her back home. Maybe you would have felt better if you had done that, maybe not. Life if full of responsibilities, many more than you can ever get done. It is necessary to set priorities and pick and choose. Really it is giving your best guess as what is most important. Sometimes you guess well, sometimes not.

Being human, we many times make mistakes and end up feeling guilty and regret. We make our decisions for the day having guessed our best guesses and then setting the priorities according to those guesses.

Unfortunately, we don't see the results of our decisions until after the results have happened. You couldn't know and now it is not good, even wrong to guilt yourself for it.

Back in '78, my mother was cooking the evening meal, and my dad went out for his daily walk. When he came back, my mom had died of a heart attack. My dad always felt bad he was not there when she died, but he could have done nothing about it or for it. Understand?

Please greive all you need to but be careful and guard your heart to not let guilt come in and cause your soul any destruction. You have more than enough to do taking care of your wonderful family.

I love you and I am praying for you and yours.

So sorry to hear about that. :(--> I grieve with you and your family. There is a unique bond people have with a horse.

You're in my prayers.

Well... you already know how to duck if you have too, ;)--> I'll pray you don't have to.

You have a great time and get tons of good pix. :D--> :)-->

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Cherished child said:

It's telling in the extreme that not one of Dr. Wierwille's children is willing anymore to "stand" with the ministry their Father founded.

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Does anyone remember back around '89 -'90, when Loyboy sent those 'Leadership' tapes out. The ones where he ascribed dozens of devil spirits to Chris Geer.

Loy said many great volumns of things in those tapes. One was a major way to prove that his way was right and Geer was wrong. It was Loy's claim that VP had said one of the proofs the ministry would stand and survive, was if the Weirwille family stood with the ministry. If they didn't stand with the ministry, it would fall.

Another way to say it is if the family stood with TWI, then TWI was right with God. If the family left TWI then TWI had turned away from God after false idols.

Of course, at the time, all the kids were still with TWI. When I heard the tape, I recalled I had heard the statement a few years before, and I think I heard it from VP.

And now, a few years later. Don has passed on, all the other kids have long left, and Mom has been deported.

IF TWI really believes VP was the man of God and spoke by revelation, they ought to be feeling really bad about the paths they are following these days.

:D-->

Now would that be according to;

Snow pump dating,

Vesper Chimes dating,

or

Actual Incorporation dating?

;)--> :D--> :D-->

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Originally posted by skyrider:

But to forfeit one's righteous living and spiritual integrity for a pittance of twi perks is folly.

God's justice will prevail.

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Therein lies the crux of the whole matter, and of all life.

Oldiesman and others,

I was talking to one of the Weirwille kids at a CFF get together 5 or 6 years back. I will not name who for their privacy, and I think what I am about to say is fairly general but gets the point across.

I asked what the kid thought about GS cafe. This person said they checked in at GSC on occasions to find out what new things were going on. It was kind of tough to do so because of the many bad things being said about VPW.

To this person, VPW was first and foremost Dad, with all the fine and deep things that dad means. Also VP had taught his children the Word and to love God, and for that the child was thankful. The kid also said they were never aware of any of the behind the scenes things which later were exposed on the net.

It hurt the child to read about VP's evildoings because to the kid, VP was dad. One should think for a minute what it would feel like to have others accuse your dad of the things VP has been accused of, then you might begin to understand what it is like to be one of his kids and why they may remain silent or anonymous at a site like this.

It's been a long while since I've seen any because of my health problems, but all the Weirwille kids I've met have been good people and totally undeserving of their father's legacy.

I agree, leave them alone and let them live in peace.

Leaders who leave twi were possessed?

Well,.. actually, they were dispossessed.

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He is known by many as.......DANCES WITH DEVIL SPIRITS (in tights) :D-->

skyrider

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:D--> :D--> :D-->

Thanks pjroberge,

Nice charts, they showed a minor dip for the lean years, roughly 10% of their assets. They easily brought it back up with a few property sales. And now it is inincreasing again. (For some reason. I couldn't raise the pdf files for 2003.) Again thanks for your efforts. :)-->

Hey there oldiesman,

I'm afraid I'm "forcibly" retired due to chronic health problems. I'm getting some compensation from the Veterans Administration and working on getting SS Disability. I'll be ok after I get that started.

Too bad too, my former company is making big time bucks right now. Oh well.

Maybe I should sue TWI too. :D--> :D--> :D-->

I trust you and yours are doing well?

Good seeing you again, love you too. :)-->

"Servant-style leadership," eeeh?

Boy is that loaded. Absolute abject doulos slaves to RosyLie. And in TWI's 1984 doublespeak, absolute masters over anyone who would be put under them, who's every sneaky suspicion is direct revelation from god against the household.

I feel sorry for them that their minds have been molded, programed and hardened at HQ. But I feel sorrier for those that will be manipulated, mistreated and abused by them.

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Originally posted by Trefor Heywood:

Such little choice in the marriage field if corps are to marry corps as was the case!

Would this necessitate a same-sex marriage? :D-->

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Tsk, tsk, Trefor. You should be ashamed of yourself. ;)-->

Uncle Hairy and all y'all,

Check with proberge's site. He has gotten religious organization state disclosure records from Arizona I think. They require a religious org. registered in their state to fully disclose their assets to the state. These are public records so proberge got copies for about 1997 to 2001 if I remember right.

The essense of it is during all that time TWI's assets were around $44 million. Half was in properties and the other half was cash.

One of the things the early reports showed was that the so called lean years ('96 -'98?) where they bemoaned they were out of money and couldn't pay all those salaried way corps never happened. That was when they sold all the limb homes, the campuses, the planes and busses, and cut back on staff and way corps salaries.

Remember, if the almighty TWI was paying your salary, you better not spend it on tobacco or pets or getting pregnant. Yep, that would get you ostrasized, demoted and fired in an instant.

The $44 mil at the end was about the same as it was before the going broke propaganda. The interest off the $22 mil in cash assets could easily keep TWI running for many years.

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"you have eternal life and will spend a significant amount of it answering for every moment of broken fellowship"

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I can't believe they had the unmitigated gaul to say that!!! That statement is diametrically opposed to one of God's greatest promises in Revelation 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

(KJV)

Talk about somebody who is going to have to "significantly answer" to God. Those boys are ina heap o' trouble. -->

Hi Georgio,

I lived near them in northeast Columbus Ohio during the early mid eighties. I liked them, they were good folks. Dawn was a real cutie, about 10 to 12 years old then.

I'm sorry I don't remember many details any more. But Brenda was having a rough time of it from the Corps types because she hadn't finished the program. I guess they thought they had to toughen her up to go back in, it just made things a lot harder. Finally, she got kind of bitter about it and wanted out.

Somebody was moving to Florida and invited them to come along. Brenda jumped at the chance to get out of the situation as it was in Columbus. Dawn of course wasn't too happy because of her friends she'd made there.

Thru mutual friends, I heard they were doing better down there, but not strong with TWI. Then heard she was dating an unbeliever, and in time married him. The last I heard, Brenda was out of TWI but was happy.

This was all 15 to 20 years ago. Dawn would be about 30 now. As I recall Brenda was from the Indianapolis Indiana area, my home state.:D-->

For your internet searches, I think the last name was Decker, not Decher. They were good people and I hope they are doing well. Dawn was a complete sweetie, tell her (and Brenda) I said hi if you ever find her.

Having gotten in TWI in '73 and generally being in close proximity, (under 100 miles,) to HQ most of the '70s and '80s, I spent a fair amount of time there and knew some staff folks.

A common complaint in the '70s was how some of the locals hassled HQ. They would drive by shouting and honking horns and doing general mischief. When the OSC was being put up and on a number of occasons after it was built, someone driving by also took potshots at it. A friend of mine on staff showed me a couple bullet holes in the front of the OSC, saying there were several more from the last drive-by. And yes there was a real frustration amoung the staff over the situation.

Calls to the Sherrifs Dept. generally took 20 minutes or more before they got to HQ. Of course that was way too late to curtail bad behavior. Someone in the legal dept. found the old law mentioned above and found it still to be valid. So they did the proceedures and did the training and there came to be a legal and proper police unit at HQ. Once the word went out, the hassling dropped to near zero.

Of course, once the word got out that a cult in Ohio had it's own police force, then every anti-way newspaper article written after that included the ol' "what does a church need a police force for?" question amoungst its accusations.

Eventually, some Ohio politicians picked up on the issue and sponsored an amendment to the police laws that nullified the religeous police allowance. Way Safety then had to become security guards instead and gave up their guns.

I am surprised to hear they are carrying guns again.