What The Hay

I would say you could probably find these types of businessmen just about everywere. Las Vegas likes to call them gamblers. The reality is there are smart gamblers just as plentiful as there are stupid ones. What you seem to be suggesting is Mel G. was a "stupid gambler" who didn't know what he was getting into, and basing that assumption on the fact the risks for making his movie were very high. I disagree. I am fairly confident Mr. Gibson weighed the odds very, very, carefully long before he "threw the dice" on his Passion movie. Biblically accurate, religious movies don't sell, but sensationalism certainly does. The Passion of the Christ is another epic spectical just as "The Ten Commandments" was for Cecil B. Demille. I agree neither film is a lesson in biblical accuracy, but I am fairly confident Mr. Gibson took many clue's from Cecil B. Demille - especially in regard to creating another epic spectacle.

On that I heartily concur. Institutions are nothing but prisons. The true God never wanted an institution anyway - all He wanted was a family to love Him, and for Him to love in return.

So what you are really claiming is: TWI is admitting that the Mel Gibson "Passion" movie is a great movie! The only problem I think you seem to be having here is with that "but" - forgetting it sets in contrast that which was said before.

Sounds like an entirely whole new concept to me. I was always under the impression the antagonists were accusing VPW of plagarizing other people and he copied their work exactly word for word and line by line - not that he watered it down. Oh... Oh... Now I get it! VWP plagarized other peoples work which was already watered down, and decided he would just distill a PURER version from theirs. Yeah... Yeah... that's the ticket... (as said by Jon Lovitz while playing the devil.)

Kermit the frog.

I don't specifically recall calling anybody here a whiner or a liar - unless somebody's reading something more and something else into what I stated. All I said was the VPW antagonists have embellished their sentiments and their experiences of VPW. Now are you interpreting that as me calling someone a whiner or a liar? You've got to have a pretty vivid imagination to make that stretch - a wild stretch of the imagination I'd say. Why are you (and a lot of other people here for that matter) making such a big frikken deal over that remark anyway? As far as I am concerned, the VPW apologists have done likewise. They too have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW. So by your "daffynition" or interpretation, I have to be calling the VPW apologists whiners and liars (or idiots) too! If the VPW antagonists are nothing but whiners, liars, idiots, etc. and the VPW apologists are also whiners, liars, idiots, etc., therefore the most sensible thing you could do is find the "middle ground" if you ask me - not to go about finding someone, or accusing somebody of calling you a whiner, liar, idiot or whatever. I'll even try to give you the benefit of the doubt - but I'm not sure why I should. If I am calling the antagonists a bunch of bozo's, then the apologists are equally a bunch of bozo's. Yep, that pretty much sums up what a TWI "inny" told me years ago - "We're all bozo's on this bus!" I think she pretty well nailed it back then - way back in 1990. Frankly I find the conclusion the antagonists have of VPW being nothing but an unholy, unrepent sinner is just as ludicrous as the conclusion the apologists have of him, that is, VPW is so blessed holy - he's so blessed holy that, "Jesus himself is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book"! The God of the bible I know never gave me revelation of either one. It must be because they're conclusions drawn by "bozos" who want to sit back and play as if they had the wisdom of God Almighty. Who do you think your going to fool with your antagoistic or your apologetic conclusions of VPW anyway? It's probably just yourself.

Well Goey, it has always been my understanding this forum is a place to openly and freely share ideas for discussion and debate, be they mine, yours, or anybody elses - whether they happen to be popular or not. But apparently that is not what you want this forum to be - a place to freely and openly discuss and debate ideas. Do you think I am going to take you seriously, especailly when you come off like a "brown-noser" - maybe you're just part of the GS commumunity establishment interested only in maintaining the status-quo? What do you think you are protecting people from? Are you trying to protect them from aquiring knowledge that might damage your credibility? It pretty much sounds like it to me. First off, nobody is paying me to post here, so don't go over the edge and accuse me of plagerizing Hoffer. When people start paying me for posting my own ideas or anybody elses for that matter, I'll ensure everybody gets due credit for whatever they've said as I might be required to pay royalties or something like that, but that surely hasn't happened here yet, and it probably never likely will. The mere fact you even bothered to check out what I said only proves I have something valid to contribute to the discussion. Just how many people bother to look into and check out what you say? Probably not many, which is proabably why your "green-eye jealousy" is showing. Heck, I'm not going to complain if you or anybody else wants to check out my sources. In fact that is what VPW encouraged me and a whole lot of other people to do with his research. That is one of the reasons I don't buy into a lot of the plagarism BS leveled at him either. VPW said - "DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT - READ IT FOR YOURSELF" and he wasn't just talking about the bible. When I first came to TWI I was highly encouraged by him to check out what he said. VPW highly encouraged someone to check into what he said and for YOU to aquire the knowledge for yourself - which ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE a fact the "plagerizer accussers" fail to mention. But then, they're just a facet of the status-quo - those who want to hinder someone's learning. But no one learns anything of real value from them, except how to become idiots like they are. Why am I charging them with that? Because checking into things and doing your own research isn't something highly encouraged even in TWI now. Now they say you don't need to bother with "checking it out", because it's already been researched. Sounds like they equally want to control somebody else's learning as well. At least I didn't mis-quote Hoffer. You'd probably have a hissy-fit about that to I imagine, and single me out in one of your posts about it. But then maybe not, if your only falling into the same "maintain the status-quo" idiot trap many others have. One thing is for certain. I'm sure not going to follow whatever "maintain the status-quo" BS rules you or anybody else is trying to lay down that can only hinder somebody else's learning. I already said F*** Y** to them a long time ago.

Ironically Raf, it's the people who happen to hate VPW the most who have succumbed to believing we were supposed to revere him - just like Jesus Christ. That is the very reason they hate VPW - because he failed them miserably as their "saviour". To them, VPW was suppossed to be: "Jesus Christ - God Almighty Incarnate" and since he didn't live up to their expectations they have every cause to hate him now. Now I am not going to make light of or dismiss any hurt he caused to others. Nor am I going to make light or dismiss the good he also did just because he failed to live up to some peoples expectations as their savior, or a MOG, or however people now want to label him. Just what do these people want? An apology from me for VPW? That pretty ludiculous, as there is no apology I could ever give that would even come close to being acceptable to them. It's certainly not my responsibilty or anybody elses responsiblity for that matter, to repent for the sins of VPW. Are we blinded by our love for VPW, or by our hate of him Rascal? You might as well ask if the glass is half full or half empty - and then accuse the other person of being blind simply because they don't see the glass the exact same way you do. One of the more intelligent things Raf said - "Enough of him already!" True enough Raf, but nobody gets enough of thinking evil. That's the (sin) nature of man for you, to think evil. The only way I know out of that is simply to come back to God's Word and make the Lord Jesus Christ your saviour. It's only when you do that, that one quits making VPW their savior. When Jesus Christ is one's saviour, they no longer have a cause to demonize VPW any more than they do to idolize him. Jesus Christ is the only one I know who can take those blinders off.

No Ex, I did not say I disagreed with other's conclusions here. What I stated was "many have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW and therefore one can't rely heavily on these conclusions - either by the antagonists or by the apologists. I neither completely believe it or disbelieve it. InvisableDan stated: One thing that is certain is: History is NEVER certain. The only thing certain about history is this - and that is, there are patterns that establish themselves and at times history finds itself at a turning point - or even many turning points. Those points are what are known as points of divergence. (POD's) I believe it was Winston Churchill who said, "History is that account of the past that is acceptable to a given community at a given time." If what Churchhill said is true, then whatever accounting of the past that's currently acceptable among the GS Cafe community at this particular given time (whether of VPW or of other things) will only be seen as counterfactuals in logic by the next commununity that comes along (or by "the next generation" as I put it) when it becomes a POD. Yes Rascal, VPW hurt us. I am not going to deny that fact. But then he also helped many of us at the same time, so I am not going to deny that fact either. To deny one fact over the other is only "embellishing your sentiments and experiences" which I refuse to do, but then, apparently many here do not.

I have Ex10. The conclusion I have drawn from posters here are many have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW - both the antagonists and the apologists, and therefore one can't rely heavily on either. I neither completely beleive or disbelieve it all. For example, one poster wants us to believe VPW is nothing but an unrepentent sinner. If that were so, why then did VPW even bother to write the following: ...for to the very depth of my being I love him [Jesus Christ] with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. It is he who sought me out from darkness. It is he who gave me access to God; even now he is my mediator. It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin. It is he who gave me the new birth of God's eternal life - which is Christ in me, the hope of glory. It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins. It is he who filled me to capacity by God's presence in Christ in all the fullness of God's gift of holy spirit. It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies. It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love. It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God's accurate Word; may I be found faithful in that calling. It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him. It is he how is God's only begotten Son. May I as a son of God live always to glorify the God whom men can only know from God's written Word, the Bible, and from the declared Word, God's Son, Jesus Christ. In spite of all my human frailties and shortcomings, I endeavor to love him with all my being... [VPW - page 8,9 of JCING] Perhaps you want to believe the testimony of a GS poster that these words were written by the "unrepentant sinner, VPW"? Truthfully, I have never heard any unrepentent sinner say such things like this. Therefore my conclusion regarding this poster testimony is - they have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to making judgments regarding the life of VPW, regardless of whatever their "shared experience and sentement" among the posters of VPW at GS Cafe happen to be. This is but one example from practically a million others. What exactly am I looking for Ex10? I am looking whether or not people have any credibility in their assessment regarding the life and work of VPW. My conclusion is most people do not, even among those who were closest to him. Why do I say that? The reason I say this is, because, humans are both creatures of habit and predictable emotions that preside over logic. Logic most often always takes a back seat. Therefore we find trends in history that both follow and parallel the trends from religious history, where many a genius has been destroyed by people of far lesser talent defending the status quo. Before you begin to judge a "biblical innovator" like VPW, it is necessary for you to put him in historical perspective so his views are not clouded by the biased authoritarian religious antagonisitic establishment - whose own track record leaves a heck of a lot to be desired BTW.

Initially I was not going to comment or post on this tread as I initailly saw it at somebody else's (Brady in particular) repeated effort to go about demonizing the life and work of VPW. Like that topic hasn't already been over-done on other threads by GS Cafe posters? Brady stated: It is my consensus the majority of people who post here are not the authorities on the life and work of VPW. Many of the people who post on GS Cafe are people who have "axes to grind" because of some injustice they experienced at the hand of VPW. GS Cafe is merely their soapbox for letting off steam at VPW, because they never had the chance to "get even with him", OH but now they can! Oh whoopee - like there's some thrill to be had in digging up the bones of a dead man to crucify him? Well, I guess some people get their "jollies" that way. Brady obviously knows it. This thread has provided more entertainment than any sitcom rerun. I was not implying he watches sitcoms, but he certainly recognizes a higher entertainment value at pitting the VPW antagonists against the VPW apologists. I only decided to post on this tread because of Brady's statement of: "history already beginning to tell his [VPW's] story" which is his own presumptious and weak arguement - a remark that's well received by the VPW antagonists who have distorted assessments regarding the life and work of VPW - just like the apologists have. "In all fairness he will be remembered as a well intentioned person etc..." is a remark that is basically downright dishonest. Brady surely isn't speaking for me, or for many of the other people who happend to know VPW firsthand. His conclusion of VPW failing because he never kept grounded with what he built is also erroneous. If that were so, by the same measure the apostle Paul could be considered a failure because the first century church he built also failed to keep ground. It's just a blanket statement by Brady that has no bearing in truth. I'll still take the Word of God as being the truth - regardless of what some numbskulls conclusions about it are. Brady presents a one-sided, antagonistic view of VPW as being the "ulitmate authority" of the life and work of VPW. And to that I say - BULL....!. A well intentioned person who is honestly looking for the truth regarding VPW's life and work certainly won't find it here! They will only be wading through a lot of highly opinionated BS. I have already concluded they won't get to the truth of VPW's life and work by listening to the antagonists anymore than by listening to the VPW apologists here - like Mike. That's right. The VPW apologists have distorted conclusions regarding VPW's life and work, just as equally as the VPW antagonists have. Frankly, both conclusions make me want to barf! Unlike Mike though, I am not here to get you to admire VPW, or to win you back to PFAL, or to talk you into "mastering the PFAL materials" and to throw out your bible in favor of the "PFAL Writtings". (Mike's already working pretty hard on that thread.) It's that I find the antagonistic conclusions regarding VPW to be as absurd as Mike's apologetic conclusions. One of his conclusions would lead someone to the point of believing Jesus is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book instead of the Word of God to judge people by! My consensus is the next generation will be smarter than either the VPW antagonists or the VPW apologists regardless of how "enlightened" and wise each group considers themselves. The next generation will draw their own conclusions regarding the life and work of VPW. The only conclusion they'll draw from the posters at GS Cafe will be - both views of VPW are a bunch of "BS"! I came to that conclusion a long time ago, and on this I am practically ahead of everybody else. I'm sorry if that bugs any of you. It certainly doesn't bug me.

No - NO - NOOO!!! I am not claiming how Godly a man VPW was. Obviously you didn't read my last post too well Garth, or anybody else for that matter. I believe I made the distinction between a man of faith and a man of purity and virtue, and how they don't keep pace with each other. Goey - I never claimed the quote by Hoeffer to be my words, but it ended up among my words. I wrote the statement down of something that impressed me but I didn't recall who the author was. It was written among other quotes of people who said things that impressed me, like Koestler, but I knew it wasn't Koestler who said it. I just didn't recall who. At least I didn't give credit to Koestler for Hoeffer's statement - which I probably would have done. I was going to post the author of the quote, but you beat me to the punch finding out who made the statement. I have been off-line the past 24 hrs. with computer problems and recently got back on line, so I wasn't able to do a Google search on it. But how would you know Hoeffer's words apply more to the likes of VPW and LCM rather than former followers of TWI? I've heard the personal testimonies of many TWI followers while they were in, and I can say with certainty many of their testimonies aren't filled with how THEY were pillars of purity and morality. In fact, many of their testimonys are far more appalling as they were trying to "win you to the Lord" (or to get you to take PFAL) by impressing you with how BAAAAAD they were, and how the Lord, [via PFAL - by the way] changed them!!! Seems more to me like they were the ones that had the "passionate persuit" with "questionable motives" Hoeffer talks about to me. I recall a Rock I attended a number of years ago where some young lady (while I was sitting in the BRC) was relaying to me and to others in the room of what "she did with her body" just to get money to pay for drugs before she took PFAL. The worse part of her personal testimony was, I knew it wasn't something she really wanted to share with me or with anybody else in that room - but somebody CERTAINLY put her up to it. Maybe she had some passionate reason for getting a PFAL class together herself? But perhaps your own resentment of VPW has caused you to forget these facts, just like it has for many others. Certainly we all have our faults, but hatred, malice, rudness, intolerance, etc., only makes you the weaker person, not the individual of whom you believe you were treated by unjustly. Hoeffer got it right, so don't you get it backwards just because you may have your own personal issues and personal reasons for "demonizing" the big, bad, VP Werewolf. As Hoeffer aptly said, I can not win the weak by sharing the wealth with them. They will only feel it as oppression. [This message was edited by What The Hay on February 08, 2004 at 22:53.]

Garth - I thought I was being clear in stating hatred, malice, intolerance and suspicions sprout up and are the result of people's sense of inadequacy and impotence. People's sense of inadequcy and impotence goes far beyond any of the injustices they experienced at the hands of VPW - which is why the hatred, malice, resentment of VPW would continue, even if justice were severed.

Who'll make his mark The Captain cried To the Devil drink a toast We'll glut the hold With cups of gold And we'll feed the sea with ghosts I see your hunger for a fortune Could be better Served beneath my flag If you've the stomach For a broadside Come aboard my pretty boys I will take you and make you Everything you've ever dreamed ... [From: Pirates - Greg Lake (of ELP)]

You can always try increasing your monitors screen resolution - provided your using a 17" or better monitor.

I stated earlier that VPW would eventually end up in the annals of history being known as a great man of faith. I said this knowing the statement would cause a stir, but it was most likely construed as though I meant VPW would end up being canonized a saint for all his great acts of moral purity and virtue. That is certainly not what I said, nor is it what I am suggesting or claiming about VPW. I am sure this is what many DO consider a great man of faith to be, and how one could therefore misconstrue what I said. If their logic were correct, then they must have little to none themselves, as to acquire great moral purity and virtue you would have to be a great man of faith before you acquire it! There's no question we'd all like to see volumes of moral purity and virtue in men who claim to be men of God, but unfortunately, a man's knowledge of God does not keep pace with his faith. That is why I don't believe men like Luther, Wesley, Calvin and others became known as men of great faith based on the merits of acquiring some "sinless-ness and God-like" character for themselves. That is not the testimony of history of how these men became great men of faith. Why would it be any different for VPW? For all I know, Martin Luther may still be regarded a heretic in die-hard Roman Catholic circles by those who still believe salvation is of works; even though those circles are few and far out of step with the modern day Roman Catholic church. I believe if one is impartial and unbiased, they will discover many of VPW’s faults are interrelated with people's hatred, malice, intolerance and suspicions of him more than anything else. If VPW has only become worse over the years to you, - then welcome aboard the propaganda wagon that’s been rolling down the same old road over the years – except you can now do it over the Internet rather than over the old gossip bar. Truthfully enough, a persons love and praise of him won't improve his character one iota anymore than a person's hatred and criticism can worsen it. Praise won't make him any better the man now, anymore than hatred can make him any less the man he was - except perhaps, for each person in their own mind and how each one chooses to be persuaded. As I stated earlier, the resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them, but rather from their own sense of inadequacy and impotence. I am not denying people have not been dealt with unjustly. It’s that I’ve come to realize many people’s resentment of VPW has sprouted mainly from their own sense of inadequacy and impotence, far more than any injustice(s) they experienced at the hands of VPW. I am not going to jam "praises for VPW" down anyone's throat - especially around those who are content with holding onto their resentment and hatred for him right up until the day they die. They would feel the slightest generosity I shared as oppression. But why fall into the trap of adding to the condemnation of VPW? Why feed the monster? All it does is turn and backfire on you, and ends up feeding your own sense of inadequacy and impotence - while you continue struggling to obtain the justice you believe you were denied. It doesn’t bring about the justice you think it does. People are here only to feed the monster. The mean, old, evil, demon, “V.P Werewolf” has grown in proportion as has the inadequacy and impotence somebody has due to the frustration of not being able to obtain the justice they believe they deserve. Since they haven’t succeeded at obtaining it, they are forced to feed the monster. It gets comical watching people tear off the halo and the harp and put devil horns and a pitchfork on someone’s religious hero, while someone like Mike goes around breaking off the devil horns and sprinkles angel powder on the big ol’ evil VP Werewolf! I think people like Brady are only here to watch the entertainment, as the reruns and sitcoms on TV have gotten pretty boring. People's praise or criticism didn't change VPW any when he was alive. If a person's praise or criticism didn't change him when he was alive (and I can't really say that with certainty since I wasn't always around him when he was alive) how would either praise or criticism change him now that he's dead? (Which anyone can say with complete certainty.) If VPW has only gotten worse over the years since he's been dead, suffice it to say it is because people's hatred, malice, and suspicions of him have increased and gotten worse – certainly not VPW! HOW COULD HE OR ANYBODY ELSE GET ANY BETTER OR ANY WORSE AFTER THEY’RE DEAD!. The next generation will look back and will judge how logical and intelligent (ahem...) we are in our reasoning. Most won't consider either your praise or your condemnation of VPW worth a ****! Anyone with half a brain would see through it. Like an old high school friend said to me a very long time ago, “Opinions are like a**holes. Everybody’s got one and they all stink!” BTW - At which university did Jesus Christ obtain his doctorate? The record shows he completely stumped all the highly educated Harvard and Princeton professors of his day. That has been the dilemma of the religious bureaucratic establishment since day one. They are quick to point out the “splinter” in the eye of some group they disapprove of while failing to notice the “beam” in their own. If one examines their track record closely, more often, it’s even more dismal than the group they’re apposing! Aruther Koestler accurately stated, “Innovation is a twofold threat to the scientific hierarchy. First it threatens their oracle authority. Secondly it evokes the deeper fear that their whole laboriously constructed authoritarian edifice may collapse.” To that one may add, it’s not just of the scientific or medical hierarchy of which this is true, but the religious hierarchy as well. History has shown that if the establishment thinks enough of you to label you a maverick or a quack or snake oil salesman they are admitting you are being classified in the same category as: Dalton, Einstein, Boverie, etc. My conclusion is, if VPW is being criticized, shunned and belitted with name-calling by the religious establishment as was Luther, Wesley, etc., then more than likely he is merely following in the same footsteps of history’s most famous and respected people. But if that upsets you, fine. Rest assured, you probably won’t be alive to see it happen to him anyway.

Why should someones conclusions about VPW bother me Shaz? It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them, but from their sense of inadequacy and impotence. You cannot win the weak by sharing your wealth with them. They will feel your generosity as oppression. [This message was edited by What The Hay on February 04, 2004 at 0:40.]

For the record Zix, I was quoting from Arthur Koestler's The Age of Velikovsky, - not from Immanuel Velikovsky's - Worlds In Collision. Please get your facts straight before you post.

So then, are you claiming to be a member of the ignorant masses Koestler talks about, rather than a professional who has a vested interest in tradition and thereby keeping a monopoly on learning? Is this what you are claiming Shaz? Frankly I really don't think so. I also think most GS'ers would be put off by the remark of someone lumping them in right along with the ignorant masses. Koestler stated restistance to innovation was not caused by the ignorant masses, but rather it came by way of professionals - or "the establishment" as I have put it. The tragedy of the system (the establishment) resistance to change is that it slows down innovation - for example, it slows down scientific and medical advancement which only translates into supporting human pain and suffering. There's not much difference in the biblical field I venture to say either. History teaches us the individual MUST PARTICIAPATE or else the individual ends up an ignorant victim or a captive of the system. Likewise, the general public also participates as ignorant victims of the system. For example, many (the general public) still think of the medical profession very much in God-like terms. The diagnoisis from their doctor might as well be the voice of God to them. How the highly educated, intelligent, well trained doctors and scientists of today find themselves in this same head-in-the-sand ostrich position that has always been adopted by their regulators is not difficult to understand. Both of their professions are extremely regulated and controlled by the system, with fatal threats for disobedience - as doctors without their licenses and scientists without their research funds find their professions are terminated. Thus they sucuumb to total control by their regulators who, because they have not learned the lessons of history, truly believe that they are doing the right thing. How is that any different in the biblical field? I venture to say it's not any different at all. Although the regulators of the medical and scientific system enjoy the perks, the power, the money, the prestige, the regulators did not create the situation but many were born into it. Furthermore, the more they espouse their position, for which many have large sums of money, the more they believe in it and because they are human the less they know about a subject, the more sure they are about the position they are taking on it. Sounds very much like the biblical field to me as well. These men of position and prestige all have good intentions I am sure. However they refuse to look at any facts - especially facts they perceive threatens their authority. The higher religious echelon is no different. I am sure I upset the status quo of many of the VPW antagonists by claiming VPW will ultimately end up in the annals of history as a man of great faith. It is said one of the important reasons for learning history is because history repeats itself, and therefore, to know history is to know the future. If it is any consolation to the VPW antagonists, don't fret yourself over my remark of VPW going down in the annals of history as a great man of faith. I'm sure both you and I will be long dead and gone before we'll ever see it happen! [This message was edited by What The Hay on February 03, 2004 at 22:45.]

Ahh ... the almighty hypothethical "What if" question comes right back to the surface once again. But who here dare asks, "Mike - What if you're correct?" Well that would be a real mind provoking question for someone to ask here. But then, neither hypothetical question is relevant, because ... Human nature remains the same as history continues to repeat itself. The cycle is only broken when there is a major change in the attitude of the public brought on by education and a recognition and understanding of past events. This is an area where I think Mike excels (at least for himself if not for anybody else) because the written record is more weighty than the opinions of the anatagonists which tend to be vague and incomplete. Their opinions are never harmonious nor tend to agree among themselves. They are typically fraught with "name-calling" when they can't get anyone to agree with their opinion(s). This is why I made the statement - it won't happen until his antagonists die off. All the grass root practical innovators in the fields of medicine and science were rarely found in the stifling status quo of the establishment-oriented institutions. Likewise with those from religious institutions. Those who made history were always found toiling on a shoe-string with private support from the dreamers of the world, while at the same time enduring the establishments resistance to change. Resistance to innovation is clearly demonstrated, not by the ignorant masses, but by professionals with a vested interest in tradition and the monopoly of learning. Arthur Koestler, The Age of Velikovsky. I am simply waking people to the fact if you are critized, shunned, and belittled along with name calling by any establishment, (and what I am specifically refering to are the biblical, scientific and medical establishments) then you are probably someone following in the footsteps of many of history's most famous and respected people, who made significant contributions to the betterment of human life. Since opinions are what "the establishment" regulates best, essentially one ends up becoming indoctrinated and hence they are easy to control. I recognize the "unseen establishment" here at GS Cafe - comes from people who wish to control the opinions of others. If they can't control your opinion you will end up belittled, critized, shunned, etc. But then that is one of the things that happened lately in TWI and what eventually lead to it's collapse. I am certain it's not the only thing, but it was certainly a major contributor. Will history likewise repeat itself here? The bottom line is, the situation does not provide anyone the freedom that is required for them to experiment - for them to be innovative, and therefore, to discover. That is what drew me to TWI from the beginning - the freedom to research the bible on my own, without some religious or some political leader breathing down my neck telling me what I had to research, what I had to teach, etc., etc., etc. If us reasearchers, innovators, and dreamers are not provided the freedoms we need to experiment, to be innovative, and therefore to discover, we will simply pack up and go elsewhere - somewhere where we will are allowed and granted those precious freedoms. I refuse to participate as an ignorant victim - as a slave of the system of some religious establishment. I'd say you would be an idiot if you didn't recognize this as well - that there are people here at GS Cafe who equally have a vested interest in maintaining the religious status quo - just like there are back in TWI. What happens as a result is nobody goes any further nor do they progresses any further in their learning. You would only be falling back into the same old trap if you allow someone to monopolize on your learning - whether it be through fear or whatever technique they employ - it comes in many facades, forms and disguises, whether it happens here at GS Cafe or in TWI, or anyplace else for that matter. My sentiments are simply this: Don't let any of 'em bug ya!!! Just recognize them for who they are - The governing bureuacractic establishment that wishes to protect their own prestigious status quo empire.

Dalton's contribution to history was the Atomic Theory. Einstein's contribution was the theory of relativity. Max Planck's was modern physics. Dr. Robert Becker (a research orthopedic surgeon) was how negative current allows children under the age of puberty to regenerate chopped off fingers and toes - that is, when the skin is not sutured over the stump and as long as the severance is below the last joint. Amazingly, these men too were labeled as "blasphemers" by the establishment. ---AND --- WPW's contribution was simply: The Word of God is The Will of God, and that the bible is the revealed Word and Will of God. I believe his contribution will be carried into history by those in whose lives it made a real positive difference. Whether or not it made a positive difference in your life or not I can't say, only you can.

Well history never kids around. But then, you and I are just a part of the current generation here Ex, just like everyone else is. Each generation believes they know so much more than the previous generation, and believes the previous generation had been extremely backward and handicapped in both their knowledge and capabilities. I think even Mike here recognizes this to some extent, but his position is more that people are simply relying on their "faulty memories" of what happen rather than the written record of what transpired. But all this only brings up the dilemma that the current generation of which you and I are a part of now (which of course, we will only be the previous generation for the next generation) must, therefore, also be backward and handicapped in both our knowledge and capabilities. Let me take a break from putting this forth merely from a biblical perspective and put this in medical terms and from a medical perspective which I think you might identify with more readily. Imagine taking a time trip back in time to visit the office of the modern doctor of the last century, who was also the product of the prestigious governing establishment. To your horror, a scruffy doctor who had just finished an autopsy would enter the room and begin to treat you with dirty unwashed hands. Painless surgery was becoming popular due to the advent of anesthesia. An abdominal complaint could result in a go-in-blind-and-find procedure being recommended, but only after a little blood letting which was also popular at the time. Then if you bled too much during the surgery, any un-typed blood could be administered to you. But if you bled too much during surgery, you just might feel like screaming at the ruling establishment to change their archaic medical procedures. But this type of blasphemy, however, may have gotten you thrown in jail where you would most certainly have been humiliated and vilified for daring to criticize the medical authorities of the day. VPW was just someone we knew who happened to end up screaming at the ruling religious establishment because of what he happened to see in the bibilical field - and he also helped many of us to see the same things he saw. The ruling religious establishment was very quick to label him a "blasphemer", (and many of us ended up wearing the same labels he did - a blasphemer, cult follower, etc.) but all that accomplished was simply remove the focus from their own mistakes (which also resulted in many people being hurt and in much human suffering) to his mistakes. We are all capable of making mistakes. The result is people end up getting hurt. Unfortunately human nature is more apt and quick and at shifting the blame and the focus off my mistake to your mistake, rather than simply fix the mistake itself. Why? Because this usually takes more energy, resources, time, money etc. of which nobody apparently seems to ever have enough of, regardless of whatever field of endeavor you may be involved it - be it biblical, scientific, or medical.

Just for the record most of the critisims leveled at VPW during his lifetime came right from the religious establishment that he, you and I all grew up in. Frankly I could care less what peoples personal opinions are about VPW - whether they are negative or positive. CRITICISMS usually start and are directed at the few by the upper echelon of any governing bureucratic establisment (regardless if we happen to be talking about biblical, medical, or scientific establishments) who rigidly regulate the innovation of doctors, researchers and scientists while maintaining and vigorously protecting their own prestigious status quo. Even the criticisms leveled at the elite and most respected men throughout history was often met with the blind and defensive cry of "blasphemy" thereby providing encouragement for the bereaucratic establishment to only perpetrate their own mistakes at the cost of human lives and further human suffering. I'm sure this may sound like an exaggeration to many of you, but history teaches us it is not. Fear of blasphemy only protects the religious establishment from being critizied itself, as "blasphemy" is the disrespect for persons or things regarded as sacred. This implies that such men are holy and therefore incapable of making mistakes, but even the establishment knows this is not true. It is only hoped by pointing out their mistakes, you and they may once again be alerted to the fact that history may once again be repeating itself. Luther, Calvin, Wesley were likewise labeled blasphemers by the "protective" religious establishment in their day by those who were embarrased by "something" they did not fully understand themselves, who reacted by only vilifying and ostracizing what many now recognize to be great men of faith. If history repeats itself, I have little doubt VPW will ultimately be elevated into the same class - like that of Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. I'm sure you may be wondering if it will happen any time soon. I dare say it will only happen to VPW much like it happened historically to all the other great men of faith - and that only happened to them after all their antagonists died off.

Ahhh yes... sayin' goodbye to the yellow brick road! Goodbye Yellow Brick Road When are you gonna come down When are you going to land I should have stayed on the farm I should have listened to my old man You know you can't hold me forever I didn't sign up with you I'm not a present for your friends to open This boy's too young to be singing the blues So goodbye yellow brick road Where the dogs of society howl You can't plant me in your penthouse I'm going back to my plough Back to the howling old owl in the woods Hunting the horny back toad Oh I've finally decided my future lies Beyond the yellow brick road What do you think you'll do then I bet that'll shoot down your plane It'll take you a couple of vodka and tonics To set you on your feet again Maybe you'll get a replacement There's plenty like me to be found Mongrels who ain't got a penny Sniffing for tidbits like you on the ground

Sorry Steve, I did not mean any insult to you. I am sorry if I offended you in any way. But very often what is said at GS Cafe is only intended and meant to make VPW look unlearned, foolish, and ignorant - and that is the impression I got right from start of this thread. What really rubs me raw are people who take a crack at topics where there is a lot of credibility and truth behind what he taught. I guess the fact he never won a Nobel Prize for what he taught certainly can't be held against him - huh? Even the concept of magnetics affecting human health still brings out cries of "quakery". But with a world of evidence and experts supporting the concepts, it is absolutely amazing it can be suppressed so long from the American public. The suppressing and twisting of information just doesn't happen in the biblical field, it also happens in the medical and scientific fields. Albert Einstein who was unquestionably the most famous scientist of the 20th century had to withstand more efforts by the scientific establishment attempting to disprove his "theory of relativity" than have ever been made to disprove any theory in the history of science. This was vividly demonstrated by an opponents publication entitled: "One Hundred Against Einstein". Einstein responded, "If they were correct, one would be enough". The scientific establishment at the beginning of the 20th century fought against a theory the scientific establishment later in the 20th century now knows to be one of the important basic truths of life. In 1808, Dalton the father of modern chemistry proposed the Atomic Theory - that atoms were the basic components of all substances. Today every kid in school is taught and believes the atomic theory to be a basic truth as they use it to predict and measure chemical reactions, yet the scientific establishment in Dalton's day only reacted by throwing scorn on his theory. Even after 100 years elapsed, prominent scientists of the day such as the renowned Professor Ostwald were publically administering scathing condemnations of Dalton's theories, while attempting to show that the theory of chemistry was independent of the theory of atoms. Even though the establishment was rigid in its negative opinion, one hundred years of debate had created supporters of the theory. Why am I bringing all this up? Because for the most part all the rigid and negative debate against TWI, VPW, LCM etc. I believe does very little to establish the truth. Those who really care about the truth will still seek it out and find it. As much negative stuff is exponded on here, the truth still remains that not everything about TWI/VPW/LCM et al was bad, evil, etc. The challenge I think we all are really facing is: Are we always being correct in our staunch and rigid and negative opinions of TWI/VPW/LCM etc? I think 100 years of debate at GS Cafe could go by and there would still be people who would only care to bring up the questionable sex life of a dead minister. But my sentiments are becoming much more like that of Albert Einstein's - "If we are so correct, one would be enough".