What The Hay

Stated earlier: Nah.. that's not a novel idea at all. TWI/VPW came up with that kind of thinking long before you and many of us ever did.

Hmmmmmm ... I was sure Raf was gonna bring the Koolaid. :D-->

Just what did VPW do? That's the all important question everybody wants answered, isn't it? Despite his human frailties and weaknesses, VPW did his best to help people with the Word of God he knew. That is what he did. What I fail to see is how Mike is minimizing, downplaying, misrepresenting and mischaracterizing that aspect of VPW's life, and he's got the tape and written records to prove it, or so he says. Well big deal, I say. All that that has ever done is spawned some of the longest threads here in the history of GS Cafe. The only people excusing their idolatrous ends are the antagonists. Since VPW can't live up to some "god-like image of Jesus Christ" it is that fact which justifies their all important, self-righteous (and spiritually erroneous) criticism of him. Just the possibility that they may have to share a spot in heaven someday with the likes of VPW - man oh man, that alone must completely terrify them to no end! But what of the scriptures which say, "Therefore let no man glory in men" and also the scripture: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement; yea, I judge not mine own self." Well you should just forget those scriptures, huh? After all, they want you to believe it is MY job to bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make known all these evil's in the heart of VPW. But this is not what my bible says. My bible says this is the Lords job, not any of yours! "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5 That's all I'm going to say about this subject - which is the Word of God itself. Bye.

Finally somebody said something here I whole heartily agree with! The VPW I came to know would have been horribly appalled to realize his PFAL bible students were wasting all their time and energy doing nothing but frittering away their precious lives discussing him nearly 20 years after he died on some silly chat board on the Internet. He would have seen all these idiotic threads and discussions about him and his credentials (his doctorate) and whether or not his actions lived up to his words as nothing but pure B.S. And that's putting it mildly. I can't use the words I'ld like to use without this chat board xxxx'ing them out! Despite what others may have said about him, I know what the man stood for and what he gave his life for. That certainly doesn't mean I idolize him or believe he was 100% perfect in everthing he ever said or did. But I am convinced the only thing GS Cafe is to some people with an anti-TWI/anti-VPW agenda is to convince other people he was a bigger sinner after he died then when he was alive! They have done a fairly good job accomplising that with people who are pretty much like them - people with idle minds and way too much time on their hands. Speaking God's Word and the truth in love isn't possible when someone allows their mind to spiritually atrophy. But then we all got to fill our minds with sumpthin', don't we? ....

VPW received his Masters of Theology degree from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941. At that time he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford University in England, but he turned it down because he wanted to teach and serve as pastor, so he postponed his work toward his doctorate and was ordained as clergy at the First Evangelical and Reformed Church in New Knoxville on: 6/29/41. It's seems real funny to me how the VPW critics only want to make a big issue out of where he obtained his doctorate, but then always fail to mention he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford Univerisity in England. I guess the critics are hoping you will be too lazy to find out this fact for yourself and simply take their word for everything they say. When he was ready to persue his doctorate, VPW decided that attending Oxford University wasn't as important to him as studying under Dr. H. Ellis Lininger, a well known homiletician who was at that time the president of Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College in Manitou Springs (not Colorado Springs) Colorado. Manitou Springs is NW of Colorado Springs. I hope I have answered Mr Proberge's question to some degree. There is a Pikes Peak Community College located in Colorado Springs, CO. Now are you saying this is where VPW went for his doctorate?Pikes Peak Community College I highly doubt it. Pikes Peak Community College was established by a legislative act in 1968, and was then called El Paso Community College. When the college opened its doors in September, 1969, more than 800 students attended classes in rented buildings in Old Colorado City on the west side of town. VPW received received his doctorate in 1948. I'm sure there have been many changes since VPW received his doctorate at Pikes Peak Bible seminary in 1948. I don't believe this bible seminary is even still around today from what I've heard.

I believe you quoted this from Patricia Liberty's "Not an Affair" article: My understanding is in cases where the so-called "victim" initiates the affair, it's because the "victim" is looking for a balance of power and recognition in their own life. You see it happen in corporate America all the time. You mean to say you never heard of some women in corporate America "xxxxing there way to the top" before? (I mean it when I say "some women", because certainly not all women do.) Of course Liberty is correct in saying, "...it couldn't happen if he/she were your neighbor and not your pastor." The reason it couldn't happen is because there is NO power or authority to transfer or relinquish to someone who is a peer when they are: "looking for their moment in the spotlight". It doesn't matter where they happen to be on the social ladder at the time. But there is always a reason behind every act. The question that needs an honest answer and one Liberty failed to answer is: "Why would a person of lower esteem even bother to initiate a sexual liaison with someone who is not their peer? I think it is because someone wanted to believe there is this special "magic", some easy, quick, "get-rich-quick" way to success, and success in life doesn't always mean money. Of course it all depends on one's personal definition of success. For some it can mean money, but for others it can mean something entirely different. We all are influenced to some extent by the "easy road road to success" in life - little or no effort involved. After all, isn't that what TWI promised us? There's no work involved or any work to it, just BELIEVE! (Oh boy, here we are back to the "law of believing" again.) But experience has proven the "get-rich-quick" road to success has certainly left behind many, many poor and miserable people.

It looks like there are a few of us who happen to agree on this point. It seems Patricia Liberty's only solution is for clergy to take some: "vow of celibacy" - much like the priests in the Roman Catholic church do. I tend to view a persons professionalism and credibility in light of the solutions they present. This might explain how much crediblity and credence some of us want to give Liberty's "It's Not an Affair" article. We pretty much know where the "vow of celibacy" has already taken the RC church.

This sounds like the body of Christ to you? Nahhhh... I think it comes closer to sounding more like Spock from Startrek ... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."

Now that certainly would be what Lynn believes of himself (and CES) but the stark reality is it is highly doubtful Dr. VPW would ever be proud of anything CES is doing or has done - especially when Lynn (and CES) have thrown out much of the biblical research of PFAL. In this particular situation I heartily concur with Mike. As Mike aptly put it ... And we are all supposed to believe VPW would be proud of the work of JAL and CES - merely from the lips of JAL himself? Sounds more like the mosquitos are alive and well and buzzing around the CES-pool to me. It is doubtful CES will ever become a religious empire though - unless they only care about attracting parasites to gather with them around the stagnant pools and decaying fruit of their "religious tradition". Just how many do you think are out there?

Because it makes perfect sense and you're not looking deep enough - why it doesn't make sense to you. What do you think a metaphor is for? The last time I came in contact with Mr. Lynn was in a live chat room a couple years ago. I don't recall which board it was from - maybe Waydale? And he's gonna stick his foot out one more time - perhaps here on GS Cafe? You don't think so? Here is his remark right from the opening of this thread. Now it could have been anyone masquerading as Mr. Lynn back then for all that matter (who knows for sure) but I do know nobody got very far with him about anything. He was content (stuck) with what he had and he only wanted to toss out the stagnant water and decaying fruit of CES - not any different now. I quickly got tired of the buzzzzzzzz going on (and apparently still going on).......

A public discourse? Nahhhh.... I doubt that is what you or anybody else is looking for with Mr Lynn. But put out the stagnant water and the decaying fruit and the mosquitos will come around. They also prefer it. [Which reveals much of what I think of the work of CES.]

I always thought that was a insipid and stupid request. One should know how to pray for themselves and not need to ask anybody else to pray their prayers. What a idiotic request for someone to make in a minisitry that supposedly teaches somebody "how" to understand the bible!

Of course, like any mosquito you're only out looking for blood. So what else is new? -->

I think I was making somewhere between 3.65 - 4.00/hr. back then. But then, the price of gas was only .35-.45 a gal. too. Yep, those were the days!

There maybe some wolves in sheeps clothing around, but you'll find there are more sheep out there who like to wear wolves clothing, and they are still stuck in their wolf suit.

Those certainly are noble qualities to find in anyone, but it still boils down to what you are willing to do to educate yourself. It has been said experience is the best teacher. Sometimes you pay (and you pay dearly) for your education, but one still educates themselves regardless. The only problem is people aren't happy with what their education cost them, and all they want to do is complain to you or to someone else about it. The biggest bunch of B.S. you will ever hear is someone telling you what they believe was in VPW's (or any other leader who was involved in TWI) heart. The only way one knows what is anyone's heart is: "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matthew 12:34-37. VPW's been dead almost 20 years, and it is amazing there are plenty of people still around putting "their own words" in a dead man's mouth, but claiming they are his. Even if you lived around VPW everyday of your life you still wouldn't have a clue what was in his heart or the heart of anybody else for that matter. I only met the man on one or two occassions myself, and I certainly know VPW was not someone who went around blabbing everything that was in his heart to everybody around him. All the so called mountains of testimonies, personal revelations are just that: personal opinions - regardless if you're a VPW admirer or not. You would be a complete idiot if you believed everything you heard about VPW from a VPW antagonist as well as VPW apoligist. The only problem you keep running into is people who have no objectivity left anymore (it is mostly their own private opinion) and it only goes to prove just how uneducated some people really are.

The word the King James Version (KJV) uses is "know", when refering to having sex in the sense of producing children. Examples: Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord". Also Matthew 1:24,25. Joseph did not know Mary until she brought forth her firstborn son [Jesus]. Contrary to religious tradition, Jesus had brothers and sisters.

I think My3Cents has given you the best advice so far. It sounds like advice coming from someone who says they have been in TWI for 16 years. And I think it is wise to look at the advice from someone who has been involved in TWI for over 10 years, or perhaps 20 years (or even more than that) - not from someone who just took a few TWI classes in the past and then said, "No thanks, this is not for me." You have to understand this organization has been through many changes since the death of it's founding president. Unfortunately many of those changes have not been positive. When I first got involved in TWI, (this was the mid to late 1970's) people in TWI went out of their way to see me and I lived over 50 miles away from their fellowship at the time! Do you think something like this happens in TWI today? But in the last few years one had to prove their worthiness, that they were a disciplined follower of "The Way" (this was particularly true during the LCM years) and one would have to go out of their way to prove they were someone worthy of their time and attention. Even though LCM is no longer president and they now boast of a "kindler and gentler" TWI, I don't see things have gotten back to the way they used to be.

"Sex does not exist in Russia!" That was the answer a very shy Russian woman gave to a foreign counterpart who was sitting in a TV studio many years ago after being asked what sex was like in Russia. It was only during the late 1980's when the Russian people got their first opportunity to talk with people from countries other than the Soviet block, and Television "bridge-shows" were extremely popular. It was a very unusual and revolutionary show, and millions of Russians sat in front of their TV sets and paid a great deal of attention to the questions and answers between the Russians in the TV studio and their foreign counterparts. Of course this Russian woman's reply created a rather large outburst, not only the foreigners who were hundreds of miles away in another TV studio, but her own compatriots sitting in the studio with her. This woman had misunderstood the question and interpreted the word "sex" as meaning "pornography". Pornography was illegal in the former USSR. The remarkable thing is it was a mistake that so touched the Russians psyche, that even today Russians still humourously repeat the answer as an anecdote, an expression or just sarcastically. Why did this silly phrase become so popular in Russia? After Perestroika the government relinquished control of property and only then began allowing the Russian citizenry the opportunity of owning their own apartments (flats). Unfortunately nothing changed for the majority of the population, as many still live with their parents because to purchase even the smallest apartment could cost between $20,000 - $30,000 or more, and in cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg the prices soar to as much as $100,000. Also that amount must be paid in cash as Russia has no credit system like we do in the US. So how many Russian people do you think can afford these sums, especially when highly paid professionals like doctors in Russia are fortunate to make anything over $100 US dollars a month? Very few, so the situation with apartment living has gone on from one generation to the next. What does that have to do with a Russians sexual life? Pretty much. Most Russian families and often their extended families have to share a tiny 2 room flat. This is not a 2 bedroom flat, but it is just that - only a 2 room flat! Most contain one bedroom and a combination living room, kitchen and one bathroom. The child usually gets the bedroom and the parents the living room. So now you can see how difficult it would be for two people to become intimate, knowing your grown child sleeps in the next room just a couple meters from your bed. So most Russian women who grow up in this situation have a habit of keeping their emotions bottled up inside, especially when showing affection among family members. Imagine two generations living in the same small apartment having being sexually repressed in the then Soviet Union. Living in this little flat gave Russians the habit of always looking for ways to compromise. You had to or you simply couldn't survive. So now you see why the phrase, 'sex doesn't exist in the USSR' is so popular in Russia. However todays generation of new Russians do not have to experience the same repressions their parents did, and therefore they are able to show more affection to their peers and loved ones. But for parents it is a different matter, and both they and past generations are still stuck to concealing any loving emotions in public. Of course you cannont escape from your sexual instincts, and if there is something missing in your sexual life in one manner you try to express it in another. This is one reason why many Russian women try to look extremely sexy and they like to flirt. But if you think a Russian woman is "easy" because of their provocative dress or appearance and have casual sex, you would be sadly mistaken! Most often the most sexual looking woman who dresses in a teasingly tight dress will turn into a cold beauty if you try to approach her and strike up a conversation. Very often she won't even give you a smile. So don't think the provocative sensual appearance of a Russian woman means something that is more promising for you men. Russian people still have a habit of keeping their affections suppressed, even in the presence of their parents, children or in public. Russia for more than 70 years was a repressed nation, so you can not expect them to break that habit in one minute or a day. The thought of free speech, religion, self rule and the showing of affection n a private or public setting were all strongly repressed. Even movies that displayed any type of affection or any written material expressing any affection was forbidden. That affected all the Russian people born before the era of Perestroika, and it is still very difficult to break the taboos that have been instilled into a people for so many generations. (Any you think you've got it bad?)

Sounds a whole lot like someone with a passion and on a very specific mission to me. But in an earlier post you had written: But you're not the only one who is in the same boat I see. There is the reason I don't take much of anything you (or much of what anybody else for that matter) has to say about VPW with any credibilty - whether it be good or bad - especially if you're one of those people who changes their tune whenever it suits them. Even more ludicrous is the remark - That's also the reason your understanding of Galatians 5 is jaded. Galatians 5 talks about standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free and not being entagled again with the yoke of bondage. But there's always someone willing to raise the dead VPW and his sins. Sounds like someone becoming entagled with the yoke of bondage again, and the Word of God says we're not supposed to be entagled with it. If we are therefore called to liberty, our mission is not one of using our liberty to serve the flesh, (there's no better way of doing it than bringing up the past, recalling your sins or someone elses for that matter) but by love serving one another. (v13) Anything other than that is someone on a mission to cause trouble; and the previous verse says, "I would they were even cut off which trouble you." (v12) So have I troubled you rascal or anybody else for that matter? Likely I have if you're someone who believes VPW is the savior of mankind or something like that, as a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, but that persuasion cometh not of him [Jesus Christ] that calleth you. P.S. What makes you think I was excusing VPW, especially when I also stated: Don't take what I said out of context.

So what you are really saying is you have nothing at all in your life you are truly passionate about? Frankly I don't believe you; not for one iota of one second. Why? Because the Word of God says, "... for out of the abundace of the heart the mouth speaketh. "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." Matthew 12:34-35. Was VPW perfect? Cetainly not. Did things come out of his mouth that were evil? Yep, he slipped up frequently and many things did. But then Matthew is speaking of the "abundance" of the heart, not someone's inability to properly deal with these extremely frustrating circumstances in their life. I was around long enough to realize there were many, many, many frustrating circumstances in the life of VPW and TWI, just like there are many, many, many of them for us. I would be the first to admit VPW never dealt with those circumstances properly, but then, many of us don't do any better of a job dealing with them ourselves. But does that make you evil just because you don't know how to properly deal with some very frustrating circumstances in your life? It's not so much what happens to you in life that matters, but how you react and deal with certain situations and circumstances. That is what matters the most. I think it was Mike who said on one thread, "If you are judged by the code that you judge by, you’d be mortified. There’s only one who was sinless." I don't know any human being that is completly perfect, except one - and He left this earth thousands of years ago. Just say something good or bad about VPW, LCM, TWI, etc. and sooner or later you're bound to rub someone's fur here the wrong way and get a reaction out of them. As far as I've been able to tell, it all depends what side of the fence you're on and what you are truly passionate about.

Precisely. If VPW were still alive, more than likely he'd be the one getting the biggest belly laugh out of the things people here have said about him. Yes sir. Plenty of people said some mighty ludicrous things about him when he was alive, but those things have only become more farcical since he's been dead! But you won't find me going to the lengths to defend VPW like LLPOF. As VPW said so many times, "Truth needs no defense, only error needs to be defended." But I am convinced some people (like rascal) won't stop in their "mission" until they've convinced everyone VPW was the devil incarnate, or like Mike, who won't stop in his "mission" either, until he's convinced everyone the works of VPW (i.e. PFAL) is purer than the Word of God! It seems to me like everybody here at GS Cafe is on some sort of "mission" today. Your here either to condemn VPW and TWI to hell, or your here to laud him and his works (including TWI ministry) to the heavens! I'd like to say the B.S. around here just couldn't get any deeper, but then, I supposed I'd be wrong about that one too.

Even if they had such a thing, what qualifies them to be the judge of VPW? But then again, what qualifies you? If I had a 24-hour tape of every single day of your life, would that qualify me to be the judge of your life - moreover, would you be willing to trust my judgement based on what I saw on such a tape? Are ALL the judges sane? I think not. 1 Corinthians 4:3-5.

For the record the so-called "homo witch-hunt" didn't start in 1990, it started right after the Rock of Ages; it was either 1993 or the 1994 ROA, but I am leaning more toward 1993. There was some homo-purging already going on in TWI just prior to this (that was also mentioned in the letter TWI sent out) but I am specifically marking this time when it was first publically announced within the TWI household - for a very important reason that will be revealed shortly. I was standing with TWI right up until this time (1993) and I vividly recall getting the letter and TWI's bould (intended to rhyme with mould) pronouncement for all of us who were actively standing in the TWI household to: "Go, Stand, Smoke out homos" very shortly after the Rock of Ages. It wasn't the "Loyalty to Loy" letter that brought down TWI. In fact, the loyalty letter was spiritually working in TWI's favor, and truthfully, TWI was on the mend (spiritually speaking) from 1990 right up until 1993. More people were comming back to TWI (this was especially true in my area) and TWI was running more Advanced classes than they ever had in the previous years. It wasn't the loyalty to Loy letter, - it was THIS ONE people!!! Well it wasn't LCM's decision to: "smoke homo's out of the household" that ultimately brought TWI down IMO. It was LCM's decision to: CANCEL THE WOW PROGRAM! That's the decision that LCM made that REALLY was OFF THE WORD! That's right. Go, Stand, Speak God's Word was now replaced with: Go, Stand, "Smoke out homos" by the MOGFODAT!!! It only goes to prove the True God won't be easily undone - even by the president of TWI!!! Yours truly also sent a letter to LCM to let him know just what a spirtually f**cked up decision he was making. I told LCM he was essentially letting "Barney" run TWI while he was seeing one to many "purple dinosuars." LCM didn't even have the courage to write me back! But I did get a letter from "somebody else" in TWI. What they said was if I went back to TWIG fellership it would all be explained to me there. (Like the original letter TWI sent out wasn't already clear?) I also recall thinking at the time, "Oh great, just what will be canceled next by LCM - The Rock?" [And that was right before he cancelled the ROA!] It was right around this time that I left. The only reason things started to get better in TWI between 1990-1993 is because of the loyalty letter and LCM's decision to "move the Word" back then - but then LCM blew it for all of us in 1993 when he made the decision to "can the move of God's Word" in favor of some other political campaign. Things haven't gotten any better in TWI ever since. You can believe it's due to the underhanded machinations and all the other politically incorrect decisions TWI now makes which is far removed with having anything to do with Gods' Word. The only way things could ever improve in TWI would be if Rosie-lie should choose to come back to the integrity of the Word of God - but frankly, she hasn't got the courage, the guts or the "spiritual hootspa and finesse" needed to pull that one off. And don't we all know it!

Thanks for clarifying your point, CC. I agree the climate toward "all things Christian" is met with a lot of hostility today, but that antagonism is not limited to the entertainment industry or to politics. I've even run into a few people here who apparently have a lot of trouble with Christian ideals and principles. :(--> My comparison of the Passion movie to The Ten Commandments was merely a remark of Mr. Gibsons careful undertaking of the technical excellence in film making, it was not intended to be taken as my personal comments on the geo-political flavors of our present day and time. :)-->