What The Hay

First of all, I never made such a claim like that and you know it. I just don't believe the true God needs your help that's all, because he is the teacher who leads us into all truth. That is my claim and I am sticking to it. It's not you, Doctor Wordwolf. It's not me, Dr. Wierwille, LCM, or anybody else inside or outside TWI. It is the holy spirit that leads us into all truth - so who in the he** do you think you are? About all I am conviced of (so far) is your only out to prove to everybody your really some great theologan by exposing all the evils that men do. But then, your not the only one doing it. Well ... good luck to both of you. Ok then, show us all the evil. Use your great puffed up knowledge of the scriptures to show us all the evil there. Show us from your knowledge and working of the scriptures all the evil - all the devils and the demons - how their leader has a devil spirit of mongoose working in them!! Funny, I was at their fellowship and their leader, their doctor of theology just did that and he proved from the scriptures how you have a devil spirit of python working in you! (Sound familiar to anyone?) About the only thing I agree with you on from your last post is: knowledge puffs up. We just disagree on the type of knowedge though - knowing someone after the flesh or after the spirit. Knowing someone after the flesh always becomes a fight. It always seems to become a fight between mongoose and snake doesn't it? Just another denominational split. It's just, "Riki-Tiki-Tavi" one more time with everybody all the time! "When I was a young man, I believed there were organizations that would kill my snakes for me, i.e. the church, i.e. the government, i.e. the school. But when I got a little older, I learned I had to kill them myself." I believe that's a line from an old 1970's song by: Donovan - Riki-Tiki-Tavi. (Giving credit where credit is due so somebody here won't accuse me of plagarizing Donovan.) When I grew up spiritually I realized: "I don't need no DOCTOR - especially a doctor of theology!" You'll realize it too when you start to grow up spiritually and start listening to the holy spirit on the inside of you. That's right. I don't need someone to come around to kill my snakes for me. I have the holy spirit on the inside to do that. So do you if your a born again Christian. Don't let some foolheaded "doctor of theology" come along and tell you that you need them and their "knowledge of the scriptures" to expose the evils of men. Do you really think they are out to destroy the evils of mankind? They're just blowing smoke up your - well, you know. Truthfully I wouldn't even call it smoke. It's more like hot air. Smoke has a bit more substance to it than their doctrines and theologies. I've already been there, done that, and got their lousy t-shirt. Maybe you got one to. And their old t-shirt is worn out and full of holes - and your's certainly is not in any bit better shape. Mongoose or Snake - which one of those lousy t-shirts do you want? NO THANK YOU. You can keep your lousy t-shirt! I threw that ol' t-shirt out some time ago.

Who's blaming who? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The ones blaming themselves would have to be those who are walking after the flesh then. Just listening to the voice of the flesh - they're blaming themselves, blaming somebody or something else. Blame a bible class called PFAL. But the best one of all of course, is digging up the past and finding something or someone else to blame. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally [of the flesh] minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5,6) Blame? Well that is just one of the deeds of the flesh the Word of God tells us to crucify. Actually, it's one of the things the lord took to the cross and crucified for both you and me. So if you're blaming yourself then your not even walking in the love of God toward yourself. Don't tell me your walking in the love of God toward others if your blaming yourself, because you're not even walking in the love of God toward yourself - by blaming yourself. Who are you trying to kid anyway? (Maybe it is just yourself lying to yourself). Tell that voice of the flesh to SHUT UP! Remarkable you would bring up the subject of tithes and money to prove VPW was a liar. I wouldn't expect someone making a blanket statement like that to understand the book of Malachi is dealing with the subject of honor. Although Malachi does mention tithing, it's not really dealing with tithing but rather with honor. Without honor, your just kindling the fire on the alter of the lord for naught. And you still expect the lord to accept an offering at your hands? Who are you kidding anyway? (Just part of the lying to yourself again). And just how far do you think that has gotten the Christian church - HONESTLY? (Since we are now on the subject of honesty and integrity). Are you trying to teach me something by exposing all the evil that was in TWI (OR THE WHOLE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) - how one can live the more abundant life by doing that? Are you still looking for devils and demons around every corner like you did when you were in TWI? You say your not? OK -- then, why are you still practicing what you now say you condemn? It doesn't sound to be very honest if you ask me. Oh that's right. Your just being led by the "holy spirit" to fib to us just a little bit to "get us back on the right track - spiritually". So we don't need to listen to the anointing of the holy spirit to teach us, huh? That's what your saying? All we have to do is listen to the word of Professor Wordwolf here (or Doctor Wierdo-wille) or somebody else - here, there, or any place else to expose all the evil, and the demons and the devils to lead us into the "all truth". No thank you. I think I'll be sleeping through your sermon.

I tend to agree with you here, but then, only to a certain degree. That is, some have got it and some don’t have it. But just exactly, what is “it” that I am referring to? 1 John 2:27. “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. …the anointing which ye have received of him. Now some may say “so-and-so” is anointed and only they have a ministry or a function, but this scripture is not talking about a particular minister, or a profit, or MOG, but it is talking about all of us who are born again. The anointing which ye have received of him. Now notice, it says, abidith in you. So there is not only an anointing that comes on someone who is a minister, or a profit, or MOG, but there is an anointing that goes with every born again believer no matter where they go. Now this anointing has the potential to manifest itself at any time, and it is up to the born again believer to manifest that anointing. The word for “received” here is the word “lambano” which is the anointing that we have received into manifestation. Now there may be people around who are only interested in the “doctrine of the power of God”, (they love to debate, especially God’s Word) but there are still some of us who are interested in the experiencing of it. The holy spirit didn’t come into us just to be a “hitch-hiker”. You know, it’s just there along for the ride with no particular reason to be there. Where ever you go he goes. No, he has a job to do. He was sent by the lord Jesus Christ to live on the inside of you and me and he is “in there” for a purpose. That’s right. Our God is not a purposeless God. Everything God does is on purpose. God has a definite purpose and He has something for us to do. By Him coming on the inside of us, He therefore has a purpose for both you and me and He also has something for us to do. But it is up to us to find out just what it is He does. The anointing we have (past tense) received of him. That is what the verse says. It doesn’t say we’re going to get him, he’s already come. Remember Jesus said, “You can’t beareth things now, but when the spirit of truth is come he will guide you into all truth.” Well he has already come, and one of the things he is doing is guiding us into all truth. Abide means “stays”. He doesn’t come and go. The old testament psalmist David said, “Take not thy holy spirit from me.” But that is the old testament covenant and you and I don’t have to pray that because he won’t leave you or forsake you. The KJV calls him the comforter, but in the Amplified there is a seven-fold meaning to that: Helper, Strengthener, Intercessor, Advocate, Stand-by, all are descriptions of what he is “in there” to do. Now that one called “Stand-by”, he is always there and ready - just standing-by. Kind of reminds me of the big old Chrysler with the 4 barrel carburetor in it, just ready and standing-by. It would just stand-by until you hit a hill, or pushed the accelerator all the way to the floor and that 4 barrel carburetor would kick in. Now you have more horse-power than you had before. In a sense, that is sort of what the holy spirit is “in-there” for – to give us more “horse power”. You can call it “Power For Abundant Living” if you want. But some say, “Well, it just seems like when I hit the rough spots in life, it seems I get so weak … well- well - well, just “push the pedal to the metal!” Stir up the holy spirit on the inside of you because he is “standing-by”. And just what is he doing: “standing-by” there to do? He is standing-by there to add that extra strength – whenever the going gets tough, you know. Yeah man, I learned you got to do that a lot in life. Actually quite a lot, or else you’re just going to end up being whipped. There are times you just got to dig down deep and draw up the greater one ...You know, “greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world” .. S.I.T. building up yourself. You see, whenever we faint in the day of adversity the Word of God says our strength is small. Proverbs says that. Well, that just means we just didn’t “tap into the greater one” because he is in there all the time. That’s right. He abides. The anointing which we have received of him abides in you, and you don’t need that any teach you. Woooohhhh there. Does that mean it is wrong for me to teach God’s Word? No, it just means that I am not the teacher. That is, a man is not the teacher. It is pretty evident what some people teach others before the anointing ever comes on them. Some teach others how to be fearful, how to be disobedient, how to lie and how to make excuses. But when it comes to teaching others how to manifest the power of God in their lives… what? Are you trying to teach me something? The anointing is really the teacher, even if it is manifesting through a minister. Ever been to a fellowship or service where you never learned anything? Well, I didn’t learn anything there either. Why was that? Because the teacher never yielded to the anointing. Yeah, they had talked about a poll they took, read a Dr Seuss poem, talked about grandma and how much she loved us, but I didn’t get much out of it. There wasn’t enough spiritual nutrition in it to even get healed of the flu! Not enough strength in it. Amen! The bible talks about the “milk and the meat”. Some things aren’t even the milk, you know. Some things are food poisoning!! Thank God for the holy spirit. The anointing teacheth you. The anointing teacheth you. Those three words in that verse stand out in my bible. I put them in bold for you here. In case you missed, it …THE ANOINTING teaches you. That’s right. The holy spirit will teach you about anything and everything you need to know about. He’ll teach you how to raise your children. He’ll teach you how to have a good marriage. He’ll teach you how to stay out of debt. He’ll teach you how to know God. He’ll teach you how to pray. He’ll teach how to live the worry free life. He’ll teach you how to cast your care on the lord. He’ll teach you how to do anything – man oh man -- He’ll just teach you and help you all the time. Amen!!! But then, maybe you don’t want to. I’m surely not saying you have to. I’m just saying He will show you and teach you. He’ll show you how to be in health – He’ll teach you how to keep from getting sick. He’ll teach you how to live so you never get cancer. He’ll teach you how not to have heart problems. If you look on the inside, he’ll teach you just about anything. He’ll teach you of how many things? All things - everything. He’ll talk to you about how to have better fellowship with God, how to start your day out right so that things don’t distract you from starting your day out in His presence. He’ll teach you in the night time how to commune with your own heart. Man I don’t know what people do with out him -- without the holy spirit. But it’s pretty evident what they’re doing. They are failing, that’s what they’re doing. But He will teach you all things…everything. And look at this … and is truth. The holy spirit is also called the spirit of truth in God’s Word. That is why lying grieves him. But a lot of people lie to themselves and that’s also why they won’t be truthful with you. That is why you won’t have him working for you, - have him working on your behalf if you are a liar and a person given to deception. (There’s your answer why PFAL hasn’t worked for some people.) That’s right! He is the spirit of truth and he will guide you into all truth! One thing I found out about the holy spirit is, he is: “squeaky clean” truth. I mean, he is not a spirit of, “Oh well, we’ll just kind of deceive them here a little bit and lead them the wrong way, and then we’ll tell them later on at some point in time that it was for their own good.” (Sound familiar?) That’s not the holy spirit. The holy spirit - he’s just telling you the truth, not part truth. So if you want the holy spirit to be manifesting on the inside of you, and also working on your behalf, then you will also have to be a person that tells the truth – squeaky clean. And if you find yourself telling a lie, then you stop yourself right in the middle and say, “I’m sorry, I just told you something that wasn’t true.” Somebody just say, “Well WTH, I just can’t do that.” Well then, you can’t be free either! Why? Because you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. Telling lies is bondage and telling the truth is freedom. People will respect you more for telling them the truth than they ever will when they find out later on that you lied to them. Well that certainly would be embarrassing wouldn’t it? That’s right. It would embarrass the devil right out of your flesh - that’s what it would do. So he, the holy spirit teaches you of all things … and is no lie. There is no lying in him. Even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him. Praise God. So one of the keys to dwelling in the lord and abiding in him is what? Lie like a trooper? No. Listen to the teacher on the inside of you. Notice how this verse ends up? It says this is how you’re going to abide in him. This is how you dwell in the lord and keep your connection with him. Remember the vine and the branches? How do you keep that connection? 1. Through the Word of God, and 2. Responding to the holy spirit. That means at times you’re going to have to forgive people and at times you are going to have to repent. Whatever the holy spirit prompts you to do, -- you do it. I know. “Image” is real big thing in our day. People want to have a good image with others and they always want to maintain that image. But then they don’t ever want to tell somebody they were wrong because that would “taint their image.” No, the truth is it will actually give you a better image in most people’s eyes. “Well, I’m just not led to tell the truth.” Well then that spirit ought to be gotten out of you, because that’s not the holy spirit. “Well, if I’m not led then I know I won’t follow, and if I’m not led yada, yada, yada” on and on the argument always goes. Well there are some things Christians are supposed to be led by, and they don’t need a lightning bolt out of heaven, or a heavenly manifestation, or even a prompting of the holy spirit to act on it. Just what do I mean by that? Proverbs 11:3 The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors will destroy them. Integrity means doing the right thing – telling the truth, amongst other things. You don’t have to be a Christian to be a person of integrity. You don’t need a prompting of the holy spirit to do that. The integrity of the upright shall guide them. You see, according to God’s Word your not only supposed to be lead by the holy spirit but your also supposed to be led by integrity. “Well I just think the holy spirit is trying to lead me into telling people here a little bit of a fib, so, you know, I can get them back on the right path – yada, yada, yada.” No, no, no. The holy spirit doesn’t need you to help him out – you just follow integrity. He doesn’t need your human reasoning, just follow integrity. So you should be led by integrity. That means you should pay your bills. If you owe somebody something you pay. And if you can’t pay on time you give them a call and work out a deal with them or something. Back to 1 John 1:27 … he’ll teach you all things and guide you into all truth. He’ll teach you and he is no lie, even as he has taught you, and you shall abide in him. Let’s look at something else he will teach you if you follow and are led by the holy spirit. If you follow the holy spirit here is what he will also teach you to do. 1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. This is one thing the holy spirit will teach you to do. No minister, profit or MOG has to teach you to do that either. The holy spirit is the one who will teach you to walk in this agape love. And there is a real connection between this love walk and the holy spirit manifesting itself in power in your life. I’ve learned that, and I am still learning that. I am not claiming I am perfect in it or that I have perfected it. Of course there are some things you just stumble over and then other things by making mistakes you also learn things. After you’ve seen a pattern of it in your own life you look at the Word of God and realize … yes, it does say that, doesn’t it? So by not walking in love we also grieve the holy spirit. Ever notice the connection between love and the holy spirit being manifested? Ever notice the bible says, “Don’t grieve the holy spirit and walk in love?” Why? Because every leading of the lord will always be in line with the spiritual law of walking in love because it is the commandment of the new testament. We are not to grieve the holy spirit and we are also to walk in love. That includes Ephesians 4:20 through chapter 5. That includes keeping your tongue by not railing on people. Why? Because by doing that you will not grieve the holy Spirit of God. So by not keeping His commandments and not walking in love we grieve the holy spirit. There are some who flippantly post responses but I choose not to respond. Why? 2 Corinthians 5:14 is the answer. The love of Christ constrains me. That’s right. The love of Christ will also hold you back on some things. That’s part of keeping your tongue and not railing on people. By doing that you’ll not grieve the holy spirit. Instead of responding I just pray for them. The holy spirit inside me is pulling the reigns back … whoa….like a horse. So I stop. Now at times I know I haven’t always done it, but that's something I am still working on. That’s also a part of how you can live well and stay healthy. One translation says he will compel you. There are some things he will compel you into. Now notice: 2 Thessalonians 3:5 And the lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Yes the holy spirit will lead you, but he will lead you by directing your heart. He’s going to prompt your heart and that is how he teaches you, he prompts you on the inside. He doesn’t have to speak audibly to teach you. In fact, if the holy spirit had to get real demonstrative like that, it’s probably because your not paying attention. I am sure somebody is going to have their head up and their chest poked out ready to say, “Every preacher I meet gives me a word.” And they are all proud like, Oh my WTH, you must be real spiritual or something - always ready to give us the Word! Proud of the fact they always get the word from me – thus sayeth the lord! Well then, you ain’t paying attention! That’s what the Word is. If you were listening to your heart, I wouldn’t have to give you the Word as the holy spirit would be teaching you from where he is – and where he is - is dwelling in you!! Where he is, is where he’s going to guide you. He’s going to direct your heart. So if he wants to direct your life then he’s going to direct your heart. If he wants to get you into something, and keep you in love, then he’s going to prompt you in your heart. But here’s the problem. We just don’t listen to that anymore. And that becomes a problem, we over ride it and start listening to the voice of offense. We only want to talk and hear about the offences of VPW, LCM, TWI, or someone else, etc. We’ve become accustomed to yielding to and listening to the voice of offense, or with arguing, or with strife, or those kind of things. That’s practicing and listening to the wrong voice. The bible says there are many voices in the world - right? Well there are three in you. Are you awake now? One is the voice of your flesh. Another is the voice of your emotions. The other is the voice of your heart. That’s where God talks - in your spirit in your heart. He will bear witness with your spirit. His spirit will bear witness with you in your heart, and then our spirit will bear witness with us. Our spirit will pass on to us – but only if we pay attention to what the holy spirit on the inside is saying to our hearts. And where the love of God is, remember what the Word of God says – the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy spirit. The holy spirit is the one that put the love of God on the inside of you and me. And where he is, is where he is going to talk to us, and that is in our hearts. That is why he directs our heart. But that doesn’t mean just because he is the one who directs our heart doesn’t mean we will respond to his direction. We are the ones who have to respond. If you can teach people to respond to their heart then you can help them in any area of life. You can help them in their relationships if they will respond out of love rather than respond out of the flesh. Respond out of the heart – the love of God shed abroad in our -- where? In our heart. If you can teach someone how to respond out of their heart, then they then can walk by faith and believing because those are things of the heart. The bible says we believe, and shall not doubt in our heart but believe those things. So we believe things in our heart, if we respond out of our heart. If we respond out our heart then we can walk by faith. If we respond out our heart we can walk by love. If we are taught correctly to respond out of our heart, then all the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace etc. will be ours. Then we will indeed have and manifest the more abundant life. We won’t go through these cycles of depression. So we can get help if we learn to look to our heart. The Word of God says counsel is in the heart of a man as deep waters… (Proverbs 20:5). But a man of understanding doesn’t walk around saying, “I got council on the inside of me and you don’t – nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya!” One of the reason I don’t waste musc time with those who want to point out errors in PFAL. A man of understanding will draw it out. That’s right. Everything you need is already on the inside of you. You need direction - that’s on the inside. You need deliverance, that’s on the inside. You need joy - that’s on the inside. You need to be a person of patience with someone - that’s on the inside. It’s the fruit of the spirit. But it isn’t a seasonal fruit, it is year-round fruit. Sometimes people do you wrong and then it’s: “Winter time.” I ain’t bearin’ no fruit today! The fruit of the spirit is not a seasonal fruit. It’s a fruit that’s there all the time! Walking in love never goes out of style. It’s as fashionable today as it ever was. 1 Corinthians 13:8 “Charity never fails.” It never fades out. It never becomes obsolete like that old 1980’s ‘puter you had. Maybe it was the “cats-meow” back then, but now? They can’t do much of anything compared to the computers today. The Amplified says it never becomes obsolete. That’s right. Love is never going to be replaced by something better. So here is the highest way to live and it is also the best way to handle any situation in life. Everything else is just obsolete, or rapidly on its way out. 1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts” and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Love is a higher way. Look up the word excellent in that verse. It means to supersede or to get the upper hand. Everybody it seems is striving to “get the upper hand.” Sometimes people are fighting and they are trying to get the upper hand on somebody else. You know, dig the most dirt up and splash it around on the most people that they can splash it around on - trying to get the upper hand. Here is how the Word of God says to get the “upper hand” on somebody. Walk in love with them. That will raise you above the situation. It will get you above everything you’re dealing with. I mean - you always want to get the upper hand in a good fight, don’t cha? So here’s how to really get the upper hand with somebody. Start loving them and pray for them, and do good to them. Return good for evil and don’t talk to somebody else about the thing they’re doing to you. That’s getting the upper hand. Besides that, it will keep you healthy. At the end of chapter 13 it says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, and the greatest of these is charity, or love. Miracles happen because of the result of faith. There are miracles that happen as the result of faith, but even greater miracles happen as a result of walking in love with people. The love of God will melt the hardest heart when it’s truly manifested coming out of a pure heart of giving toward someone who is doing you wrong. They might bark and rail on you and get mad at you for a while, but after a while they have to give in because love is greater than anything. Our problem is, we may do that for a while, and then when they don’t respond like we want them to we go, “OK … PHBTTTTTTTTT! You know. I’m going to do to you like you’re doing to me! No, you just got to keep on doing it. Just keep on doing it. It will melt the hardest heart. It’s greater than faith. Love is a better way, it is the highest way. The verse in the Phillips translation of 1 Corinthians 14:1.says, “Follow then the way of love while you set your heart on the gifts of the spirit.” So if you want to have manifestations of the holy spirit then all you have to do is let love flow through you toward people because God is love. You love somebody and God is going to start manifesting His power. When your heart goes out to somebody, begin to respond to that and you will see the things of the holy spirit in operation. You’ll see by responding to that God will show you how to pray for them, He’ll show you things going on in their life that are causing them to stumble - things that you can pray about – not talk to other people about. If you are faithful with these things He will talk to you about things and you can go to the lord in prayer on their behalf. It’s a much higher way. So stick in there with your wife when the going gets tough and keep on loving her. If mamma’s not happy, nobody’s happy – right guys? It’s not a whimpy thing for a man to love his wife. It takes a real man to hang in there when the going gets tough - to be a daddy to those children and set the example. Thank God for His Word. The love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts by the holy spirit. By walking in the love of God you and I will always get the “upper hand”. By walking in love the holy spirit will manifest and we will see great demonstrations of His power and goodness toward us. To close my post I am going to say something I know that probably hasn’t been said in what may seem like ages to many of you. That is, God Bless you. I love you, you are the best!

Remarkable how you mentioned "where are the results" twice, but never mentioned even once what should and ought to be more important than any results. (Matthew 6:33) I can't say with certainty all things will be subtracted from someone who seeks anything else first. I do know (from Gods Word) if one's focus is always fixed on obtaining results, they are certainly missing something that is by far much more important. Sounds like nothing but labor wrought in vain, which indeed it is. Psalms 127:1 "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it..." That's the way it goes with someone who seeks something else first contrary to Matthew 6:33 - it's nothing but labour and work wrought in vain. It is easier being a worker with God rather than for God. That was the problem many people ran into during their tenure in TWI. Results are guaranteed, but one shouldn't go blaming God for their narrow focus and shortsightedness because that's all they really desired first from the start - RESULTS! (I'd tell you where you can stick em too, but there's no reason to get that vulgar).

Linda Z: Mike: Of course, that is not exactly what VPW said. What VPW said was, "The Bible does not contain God's Word; it is God's Word". (Life Lines, p3.) What's the difference in those phrases? Is there any difference? Both phrases sound and appear to be making the exact same sense, right? VPW clarifies this, as on the same page of Life Lines he says, "To most people the Word of God is just words; to us it is life." I'll comment on that later, but I’d first like to address the comment Mike made. Mike: It was more like he saw the greater or the overall picture from his working of God’s Word, although a piece or two may be missing – like putting together a complex puzzle. The majority of the puzzle has been put together. Since the majority of it is put together one can easily tell what the intended picture is, but then there is still a piece from a section missing. A piece of green grass will not fit into a blue sky regardless if that puzzle piece [in this case an original text] is from the same puzzle or from a different puzzle [from a different text]. Where it becomes challenging is when dealing with the same section of the puzzle (the same section of text or scripture) though. One must look more closely at the various shades of color and the edges of a piece to discover if that piece will fit into the larger section. A dark piece of blue sky doesn't fit into a section where it is light blue. Sometimes that can be easy to tell, and at times it is difficult, especially when the shades of color and shapes are extremely close. Working God’s Word by carefully examining the usage of words and rightly dividing it has been much like this. I am using this puzzle analogy to illustrate another spiritual point as well. Take these two phrases for example: "The bible does not contain the word of God it is the word of God" and "The bible does not contain God's Word it is God's Word." On the surface both phrases appear to be expressing the same meaning, when what we are dealing with are "subtle and slightly different shades of color" from a grammatical sense. Now in the natural world both those phrases and expressions may make no difference in sense, and naturally speaking they may not make any difference to anyone either, (and I suppose this could even make a good defense in a case for plagiarism) but in the spiritual world these expressions can easily make all the difference. Need proof? Don’t just take my word for it. Here’s the proof from the word of God. In Acts 19 we read the record of the vagabond Jews, exorcists who took upon themselves to cast out evil spirits. I would venture to say they copycatted the apostle Paul to the very last word - maybe they even plagiarized him down to the very last letter. Just what did they say? They said, "We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth". (Acts 19:13) Sounds to me they were speaking and using the exact same words the apostle Paul did to cast out devils. The apostle Paul got results when he used those words, but what were these fellows’ results? One would think they should get the same results since they were using the exact same words the apostle Paul did. That seems “logical” enough to me. Some other religious fellows, seven sons of Sceva and the chief priests decided to follow suit. Verse 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?" Now that's a real good question to ask. Just who in the he** do you think you are? Some people have been out of TWI for years (from my observance at least) trying to accomplish something for God, while others have totally given up on God’s Word. Some people think they can accomplish things by copying VPW and his ministry, while there are those who believe they can accomplish something by altering things – i.e. teachings. Those people have always been around. They also show up here on GS Caf?ccasionally. But what has been the result these many years? The result is the same thing we see recorded in Acts. Those spirits have jumped on people and they too have fled - naked and wounded. Just where has everybody that I knew in TWI, at least those who genuinely love God and His Word gone? Some are on the Internet complaining how TWI (more likely someone in TWI) left them naked and wounded. But we always hear about the naked and wounded (at least the physical side it seems) more than the spiritual side. The reason they haven’t touched the spiritual side is because they themselves are naked and wounded - spiritually speaking. The reason this is evident to me is because while some have endeavored to copy VPW and his ministry others are out attempting to alter it somehow by spreading rumors and gossip. Both groups are spiritually naked and wounded if you ask me. I am now wondering if this thread will get to be as long as the “Mastering PFAL” thread. It’s already off to a good start. Mike’s back again with his “challenge to master PFAL” or he has already alluded to it. But I can’t blame anyone for not taking him up on the challenge. The reason I believe that, is because the fear is too great somebody might start up another copycat TWI ministry. God help us! Right? But then … I was taught we were the new dynamic church. It appears nobody here is taking your challenge to master PFAL very seriously Mike. God forbid, “We adjure you by Jesus whom VPW preacheth!” (At least the one I think VPW is preaching.) Yes Sir. That’s exactly what has been happening for years now. It’s still happening inside and outside the corporate TWI structure and we’ve witnessed the same results many times over. The result - people have fled – naked and wounded. I am specifically addressing people who think in order to have God’s truth they either have to copy (parrot) what a man of God did, or they got to alter the revelation of God’s Word, but nobody really has the picture yet. It’s one thing to copy what someone has given you, then quite another to understand what you’ve been given. Believing comes from having a working and living understanding of the word of God. One doesn’t “arrive” simply by copying it or by copying someone else. That is why it’s very hard to believe VPW copied (plagiarized) it all, especially when his understanding of God’s Word was vastly different from those he supposedly copied (plagiarized) from. Why argue the law of believing when that principle is ingrained right from the very first letter in the bible from Genesis 1:1 to the last letter in Revelation 22:21. The first letter in God’s Word is “I” and the last letter is “n”. One doesn’t get “In” the picture [one can call it God’s favor] parroting what another man (or woman) has done or by altering the revelation of God’s Word. The law of believing is written into every page, every word and every single letter of the bible. Power For Abundant Living gives one the tools to rightly divide the Word of God. Just because someone is given tools doesn’t imply they will do the job properly, or that they will ever do the job. One can also be given tools and not know how to use them. I have seen PFAL grads who simply don’t know how to use the tools they were given in PFAL. I’ve witnessed it already in this thread where someone’s weak understanding and application of the principle of “first usage” they were initially given in PFAL was mishandled. I’ve seen grads of PFAL allow the tools they were given for rightly dividing God’s Word “get rusty”. But that isn’t the fault of PFAL. I know if I let incompetent workmen into my house to do repairs many things in my home would end up becoming altered. That’s no surprise. Things would look very different than what they should look like, and many things wouldn’t work at all. The same thing is true spiritually. How effective is a workman who allows his tools to get rusty and useless? How effective is the workmen who doesn’t know how to properly use his tools? When a workman of the Word doesn’t properly use the tools to rightly divide God’s Word they end up doing one of two things: They end up copying another man and his ministry, or somehow the revelation of God’s Word becomes altered. But the results are still the same – one is left spiritually naked and wounded. Now I can’t say for certain Jesus is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book to judge anyone, but I do know for certain you and I will both have to give account of our workmanship. To you “apprentice” workmen who were also given the tools to rightly divide God’s Word, Jesus will appear more to you like Donald Trump and inform you, YOU’RE FIRED! Some have become spiritually lazy and allowed themselves to become inept at rightly dividing God’s Word, while others weak in understanding the things of God don’t have anything left but jokes and Dr. Seuss rhymes to offer people; spiritually speaking. Well some may laugh, but I’m not laughing especially where people’s lives are at stake. Many of my brothers and sisters who love the true God are devastated by those whom they looked to for spiritual help now ridicule God’s Word into nothingness. Well, there will always be those who make light of the things of God, and then there will be those who treat the Word of God with contempt. But what can one expect from a hypocrite? It is part of the leaven the lord Jesus told his disciples to be aware of and also to avoid in Luke 12:1. The word for hypocrisy is: hupokrisis. It is made up of two root words, hupo (means above or beyond) and krisis (meaning judgment). The word of God is the ultimate judge, it is the ultimate rule. A hypocrite is one who “breaks the rule” by placing themselves above and beyond the righteous judgment of the true God. They won’t be humble to it, as they’ve placed themselves outside, or above and beyond God’s authority. It can happen not only at top leadership levels inside the church, but also outside the church, for the same spirit is in the world. You know what I’m talking about - those who have said in their heart, “I’m my own man (or own woman). I have the final say for I answer to no one!” Hopefully some of them who are here will wake up pretty soon, otherwise they might have a very rude awakening one day. It’s a sobering truth to those who love God, even if you believe it came out the mouth of a fool, “If you won’t be humble to the Word, you will be humbled by the world.” There are two Gods (the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ) and Satan, the god of this world. One always places themselves under the authority of either one - even the person who believes they are their own man or woman. They might not think they are under anyone’s authority, but then the devil, Satan himself, doesn’t think that way either. According to God’s Word he will have a rude awakening someday too. Nobody can be argued into mastering PFAL anymore than one can argue someone into opening the bible and reading it. Why? Because when it comes to their (your) life, they (you) have the ultimate say as to what they (you) will spiritually allow and what they (you) wont. You have the authority in your life as to where you will get your spiritual nourishment. I can’t force someone into eating fish and pine nuts (although it is a healthy diet) onto somebody who is content with eating french-fries, cheeseburgers and high fat food all the time. There are areas in life where you have and can operate spiritual authority, and tehn there are areas where you don’t have any spiritual authority. That is why understanding your realm of authority and walking in that realm is a major key to operating the law of believing effectively. Now don’t go complaining there isn’t such a law because you can’t believe big enough to create stars and planets. That’s not your realm of spiritual authority. There is a spiritual realm where you do have authority, and there is a realm where you don’t have any say or authority. If you tried to operate the law of believing in the realm where you have authority and still didn’t receive whatever it was you were believing for, it’s because God isn’t as stupid as you want Him to be. That’s all. You are accountable to God to properly steward what you have been given. Why would God honor someone’s prayer and give them a bigger home, a bigger car, a bigger paycheck, etc. etc. etc. if they aren’t capable or faithful in stewarding what He has already given them? Stewarding what one already has is a burden more than enough for most people to bear, so a bigger car, bigger home and bigger paycheck would only end up being a bigger burden around their neck - that’s all. The reason people desire more and bigger things is because of the joy they believe those things will bring, but that joy is often short lived. They think having more things will soothe their souls troubled by fear and desire, but having more money and more things cannot do that. I know people who are filthy rich who are more afraid now then when they were poor – they are afraid of losing all their money. The fears that drove them to get rich only got worse while the weak and needy part of their soul is screaming louder and louder. Well, it is remarkable Jesus would also mention covetousness in Luke 12. Shortly after telling his disciples to beware of hypocrisy he instructs them to beware of covetousness in verse 15. One characteristic doesn’t show up without the other does it? Jesus then tells them a man’s life doesn’t consist in the abundance of the things he possesses, but a hypocrite considers those things and the accumulation of worldly things to be very important. One of those things is social status and the authority and recognition of that position by other people. So it goes – just how many people can you get to jump whenever you bark? Money comes into play because money buys people. People become slaves to money because of the positions of power and the worldly recognition money often buys for them. I trust I’ve given you a lot of “food for thought”. Some may digest what I’ve said, while others might choke on it. Some will decide to cut it up and hash it up because it’s different from the hypocrisy they’ve been feeding on and what they’ve been spiritually serving others for years. In their minds they could be saying, “Just who in the he** do you think you are?” To that I will only answer, “I am what God’s Word says I am. I am not pretending to be anything more or less, because one day I will have to stand before the lord and give account of my workmanship.” I certainly can’t speak for you or for anyone else, because that is outside my realm of spiritual authority. I am sure there are people who still want to address the errors in PFAL. People also wanted to do that while VPW was alive. Now that he’s dead and gone (and fewer competent workmen of God’s Word are available) they believe there are errors in it simply because their position is not being challenged like it used to be. When the boss isn’t around, incompetent workmen slack off and take a holiday. Since they ended up having a lot of “run-in’s” with the boss, they go off running and whining to their colleagues complaining what a raw deal the boss handed them. Since the boss isn’t around, the slackers (mistakenly) think they don’t have to give account of their workmanship. It’s the: “I am my own man, my own woman syndrome. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. God is our ultimate “Boss”. VPW understood that principle - that one day he would ultimately have to give account of his workmanship. He placed his work under God’s authority, and he put it in writing for everyone to take note of. He wrote, “I have written up my years of research not to be argumentative; neither am I apologetic. I simply want to set forth my study as a workman for God, realizing that if the research is a right dividing of God’s Word, many who will believe will be blessed. If my research is a wrong dividing of God’s Word, then I stand before God as an unapproved workman. Either way I accept full responsibility”. (Page 3 of JCING.) He never told you or me we would be responsible for his workmanship, so where do people get the idea it is their responsibility to pick out the “errors in PFAL” - especially when we are not responsible for his workmanship? Man oh man, what a relief it is to understand that! If people were as genuinely concerned about their own spiritual workmanship as they want you to believe they are about VPW’s, they wouldn’t have time to pick apart his workmanship - they’d be more concerned what the boss thinks of theirs. But they got to point out the errors and magnify them because they’re afraid you’ll end up focusing on their lousy workmanship. Why should anyone give a rats a** what you have to say about PFAL anyway – good or bad? God is the one who will be handing out our paychecks and rewards, not any of you!! Just who in the he** do you think you are? To most people, the Word of God is just words, (words to argue and strive with people about) but to us it is life. You and I are supposed to study to show ourselves (we’re not to make somebody else) approved unto God. (2 Timothy 2:15) You can’t make anyone stand approved unto God by arguing PFAL, God’s Word, the Bible or anything else for that matter with them. It’s not within your realm of spiritual authority to make someone stand approved unto God, so why even try to operate there? What a waste of precious time, time that can never be recovered. It’s nothing but hypocrisy, and all that does is create strife among people. When one spiritually grows up into understanding that, it will cause them to be at peace – not only with their neighbor but with their enemies as well. God bless you all.

I never said VPW specifically wanted you to buy the other writers books. But VPW DID insist his students didn't just take his word at face value. He always encouraged his students to "check things out" for themselves. Now the recommendation by VPW to "check things out" may or may not have lead to someone purchasing those other writers books, but the indication to do so may have certainly been there. As "The Teacher", VPW strongly encouraged his students to do their own biblical research. He never said to his students, "Just trust me on this" and left it at that. You know - just take it by faith brother. [boy how things have changed in TWI since then. Someone 'doing their own biblical research' is now strongly discouraged where at one time it was highly encouraged?] An author of a work has exclusive rights and limitations in regard to copyright. It's a common misconception an author has only exclusive rights. It's because of this the distiction between fair use and infringement is not clear and easily defined I believe - it's not always cut and dry, especially when the copyright law is always being amended. For example, there is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that can be safely taken without one obtaining permission, and that also plays a great part on the limitation of "fair use". Obtaining permission takes precedent over acknowledging the source of a work. Merely acknowledging (or citing) sources of a work does not substitute for obtaining permission. Did VPW obtain permission from those authors? I can't specifically say yes or no, but if not, why would he strongly encourage his biblical research students to check things out for themselves if he had something to hide? But two different biblical scholars who are writing and quoting the exact same verse of scripture in their own work hardly qualifies as one scholar infringing upon the other scholar's copyright. Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work. There is too much of VPW expressing himself in PFAL and as well as the PFAL collaterals for someone to be confused if it were really VPW or maybe perhaps "some other author" who wrote PFAL. But then again with Mike's mastery of PFAL, who could tell otherwise? :D-->

Your boldfaced stance does not indicate you understand the copyright law - specifically copyright in regards to fair use. Your links on p.1 of this thread regarding copyright is from the University of Indiana - from academia. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, or methods of operation, but can protect the way these things are expressed. Ideas and discoveries are not protected by copyright. Your objection (charge of plagarism) is based on the manner in which VPW cited his sources and his failure to protect the way in which those things were expressed in his written works. If research and/or teaching was NOT the "PURPOSE AND CHARACTER OF THE USE" in producing those written works (rather profit) then truly charges of plagarism would rightfully apply. However research is not an infringement of copyright. Purposes of criticsm, comment, news reporting, teaching, research all fall under the fair use clause of section 107 title 17 of the copyright law. According to title 17 section 107 what constitutes fair use: (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. Parts 3 and 4 are perhaps the most debatable parts of the fair use law, specifically whether or not VPW / TWI might have perhaps crossed the line in the fair use clause. TWI has publically positioned and presented itself as a non-profit, educational, research and teaching organization. That should come as no surprise to anyone who was ever involved in TWI. The "purpose and character of the use" of the PFAL series of books/collaterals were primarily meant for education/research reasons and not for profit. As such, those materials would qualify under fair use. The points the critics want to bring up are parts: (3) - questions regarding "the substatiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole" and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market. Did sales of the "other writers" books fail (or fall) because of the PFAL series of books? But for the most part we're "begging the question" here. Just another "logical fallacy" so it would appear. Begging the question.

I don't know what TWI currently charges for the hard cover books (especially since PFAL is not in their current line up but Martindale's WAP) but the price is printed on the book liner of the copies I have. The hard copy of RTHST is priced at: $5.95 (the sixth edition, not sure when that edition was released). JCING is $6.95 (which is the second impression that was printed in 1983). I am missing the liners from the collaterals BTMS, TWW, GMW, etc. but I know those books did not cost more than JCING and had the prices printed on the liners. Those books were right around $4.95 each as I recall. Even if these prices are still the prices from the 1980's, I would be hard pressed to believe there was a tremendous profit margin or markup on any of these books. (You also got to figure in labor costs, overhead and administration costs too - not just material costs.) Most hard cover books printed 10 years ago ran around $23.00 to $27.00 retail at your local book store - that's for books around 200 pages or so. The PFAL collaterals are about the same length (number of pages) or longer. Of course, the price of the book all depends on the publisher ultimately and what it costs them to bring the book to market. Get real Raf. The biggest "cash cow" for TWI was people's weekly ABS at a minimum of 10% (or 15% if you really wanted to be blessed) not any of the books/class/materials sold by TWI. But nobody's here is arguing the point ABS was plagarized by TWI - or are they? - BUT WAIT - didn't the Mormon's come up with that whole idea first? Perhaps they'll file a copyright infringment lawsuit against TWI for plagarizing and capitalizing on their tithing idea. But other churches also practice tithing and they haven't been sued by the Mormon's - as far as I know they haven't ever sued anyone over tithing. As much as I can find fault with TWI's practices, I find the plagarizing accusation to be nothing more than TWI's critics "straining over a gnat". Even if VPW had given all the proper credit due to all the other writers, his critics would still argue his books were plagarized simply because he failed to credit the woodsmen who cut the trees to produce the paper in order to print them. The critics won't stop at anything to try to make their "plagarism" point stick - as ridiculous as it already is. By their "daffynition" of what they believe plagarism is, anyone who ever wrote a book could be called a "plagarist" simply because no book ever written has credited a papermill that produced the materials to make a book. Just for the record, none of the "other writers" (that VPW supposedly plagarized from) books sold very well in the open marketplace. The only exception here might be unless you happened to be a "geeky scholar" or a real square peg that found a unique fascination with extremely dry reading material. Could there have been any squarer peg or geekier scholar than VPW? Well that's a whole different arguement, isn't it? There wouldn't be a plagarizm accusation against VPW except for the fact he popularized the "other writers" written works. All that VPW and TWI did was give their book sales a tremendous boost! After all, I bought their books too (and I blame VPW and TWI for that) but I still haven't seen any of their publishers bring a copyright infringment lawsuit against TWI. I don't recall they ever gave VPW/TWI any credit for popularizing their dry readin' material. Perhaps they decided to call it even/steven instead of filing a copyright infringment suit against TWI - right? With all the other lawsuits that may be pending against TWI, the "other book publishers" sure aren't scrambling here. Ask yourself - why?

Here is an interesting article that was published by: JHWhite Publishers regarding the Power of Words. The Power of Words After I read this I realized how all too often we've fallen prey to other peoples emotional appeals, fallacies, manipulations, disinformation, misdirection and "political correctness" regardless if the person was involved in TWI or not. When one becomes familiar with these "20 or so" misleading and deceptive arguments, and recognizes them for what they are, one can usually seperate the emotional response from the subject at hand. As the article states, "Unknowingly making choices based on emotional appeals and logical tricks, one allows others to control their thinking, and their behavior, setting themselves up to be used for someone else's interests." I believe this article may be worth the read to many here.

One can read: "The Myth of the Six Million" by David Hoggan, PhD. on-line. The Myth of the Six Million Whether you fault Mr. Hoggan's credibility over this is immaterial to me. I fail to see why people still want to make a big stink over this. The Jews were certainly not the ones who lost the most as a result of World War II. World War II is still alive in the memory of many Russian people today. Over twenty million Russians died in this horrible war yet the media still trumps up the 6 million Jew figures. The media's been tootin' that ol' horn for decades. The Soviets by and large bore the brunt of the war in every way. The Russians lost the most people. They suffered the greatest privations, of which Leningrad was the most striking example. They did most of the fighting, especially during the long months while the Allies remained on the periphery of the fighting. I wonder what people would say (or do) if a museum were ever erected in the US to honor the twenty million Russians who lost their lives? Doubt it will ever happen.

OK -- HERE IT IS!!! Expanded Translation of Ephesians 6:10-17 (passage taken from p10 of "Athletes of the Spirit" booklet) 10. From now on keep on being strong in your sold-out commitment to and in our Lord, and in the willfully exerted power of His might for you, for with vigor you can do. 11. Clothe yourself with all the equipment, trappings and gear of a gymnast of God, with a view to being able to win standing up against the systematic, scheming methods and devices of the Devil. 12. Because your wrestling contest is not with a view toward fighting flesh and blood, but with a view to being distinctly independent of all principalities, including the exercised authority of sultans who rule and exert their worldly powers by devil spirits in every place beneath the heavens. 13. Because of this, clothe yourself with the complete equipment, gear, of God, so that you may be able to withstand and resist the evil one in the contest; and if you prepare yourself with all the equipment in everything, you will stand firm and erect before the bema. 14. Stand therefore, with your whole self [LOINS] girdled with the truth of the Word of God and with the strong and pure HEART of your renewed mind, clothed in His righteousness, 15. And ready to go, with your FEET toughened, having the foothold for standing so you can carry the gospel of peace. 16. And finally, being well trained and in top shape, take to yourself the discus, that is, believing the rock Christ Jesus, and with the rock, Christ Jesus, you will have power to outdistance all the javelins of the evil, wicked one. 17. And therefore you wear the glorious crown of wholeness, for you've won every contest with the javelin provided you by God, which is the Word of God. I believe this translation was taken from a manuscript that was found in Arabia (as v12 references the: 'exercised authority of sultans') but the background on this is sketchy from my memory. The figure of speech specifically used in Ephesians 6 is an: "Allegory" which is an extended metaphor, or the extension of a comparison by implication. An allegory contains multiple points of comparison between two things being compared, while a parable is designed to make one basic point of comparison. An allegory is an extended simile. In the old testament the dominant imagary was militaristic. That's understandable because God's people were an ethnic, geographical organized unit - Israel. Their main purpose was to win back the promised land that had been taken over by unbelieving races, and they had to win it back militaristically - in battle. They had to do it with a strong standing army, so the militaristic imagary in the old testament makes sense. In the new testament the imagary is not militaristic but athletic, although atheletic discipline historically developed from military skills. There are numerous scripture references with athletic terminology in the new testament, not merely in Ephesians alone. Romans 9:16 speaks of running - [trecho - to run in a race] Romans 15:30 talks of striving together - [sunagonizomai, to strive together in a contest] 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 also speaks of running - (trecho) in a race [stadion, racecourse, furlong] but one receiveth the prize [brabeion, prize in the contest]... and every man that striveth (agonizomai) for the mastery is temperate [enkratueomai, to exercise self-control in disciplined training]. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown [stephanos, crown received for winning the race] but we an incorruptible. I therefore run (trecho) not as uncertainly; so fight [pukteuo, to box] not as one that beateth the air [aera deron, to bet the air, shadowbox] but I keep under my body [hupopiazo mou tosoma, I subject my body to intense physical exertion] lest that by any means, when I have preached [kerusso, herald, as the trumpet heralded the competition] to others, that I myself should be a castaway. II Corintians 10:13, 15,16: But we will not boast of things without measure, but according to the measure of the rule [kanon, rule, standard, or lane marking in a foot race] which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even you. Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of others men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule (kanon) abundantly, To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line (kanon) of things made ready to our hand. Other athletic terminology appears in the New testament: Galatians 2:2, Galatians 5:7, Galatians 6:16, Ephesians 6:12, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 1:30, Philippians 2:16, Philippians 3,13, 14, 16, Philippians 4:1, and 3, Colossians 1:29, Colossians 2:1, Colossians 2:18, Colossians 3:15, Colossians 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 2:2, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, II Thessalonians 3:1, I Timothy 4:7 and 8, I Timothy 6:12, II Timothy 2:5 and II Timothy 4:7 and 8. I won't cover all the greek words listed in those scripture references listed above here, but can provide them to anyone interested. You will also find them listed on pgs 30 and 31 of the Athletes of the Spirit booklet.

I just recently started communicating with Mike privately. Below is something I sent to him by email last night, but what I sent him last night did not contain the “finer elaboration” the message below contains. Of course it was during the wee hours of the morning while I was writing so the message below is slightly different than what I originally sent to him. I probably do my best thinking at night, not always the best writing though. The reason I am posting essentially the same message is I did not want this message simply to be solely for his benefit. I have been doing a bit of research and biblical study lately on the power of words - i.e. life and death being in the power of the tongue for one. What at one time appeared to me to be merely "good biblical advice" for living the Christian life - living by Christian principles to get along with others now goes a lot deeper in my understanding than just "maintaining a positive relationship" with other people. I am not saying we as Christians should never get angry or upset, or that we never have any disagreements with someone. But what we as Christians oftentimes fail to realize is the power of our words - the actual power that is behind those words. We often get easily offended by the words spoken to us out of someone’s ignorance (or the words we speak out of our own ignorance) rather than the source of the power behind those words. Someone had postulated to me long ago, “We are all ignorant, but only in different areas.” There is recent scientific proof that our world was truly created from words. It was not some "big bang" as some other science would like to propound and have us believe. Of course it is recorded in the bible. In Genesis the first creative act was the creation of light. God simply spoke it into being. Every thing that was created was created when God spoke. Now one could argue and say, of course God could create light, water, land, plants, etc., etc., etc, because he is God and there is nothing impossible for God, but for me? Who the heck am I that anything I should speak about ever come to pass? Physicists have been searching for the "fundamental building blocks" of matter for centuries. Now by using an RHIC, (Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider) and by colliding particles of gold atoms at nearly the speed of light, the RHIC will heat matter into collision more than a billion times the temperature of the sun - if only for a fleeting moment (less than 0.00000000000000000000001 of a second). By using the RHIC, scientists have the ability to study the fundamental properties of the basic building blocks of matter - quarks and gluons. There is no microscope available, electron or otherwise strong enough to physically see these particles, but other scientific measurements have proven these particles to be waves. What do those "waves" look like? They appear to be (as one physicist remarked) they appear to be "sound waves". Our bodies respond to many forms of stimuli (light, heat, cold, etc.) but the greatest stimuli our human mind responds to is sound – it’s not light, cold or heat or taste or smell. Out of all the five senses, our minds respond largely to sound waves. The relationship our mind has to our body, to control our thinking and our thoughts and ultimately our life goes without saying. I have met people (maybe you have too) that have essentially talked themselves into getting sick as well as those who have talked themselves into getting and staying healthy. The real problem is no one gives much heed to the power behind words. We've all failed miserably in our understanding of what "Power For Abundant Living" is about. True "Power for Abundant Living" completely resides in the power of our TOUNGE! James 3: v8-18. (So there is the burr Steve L, that got under my skin). The recent challenge was – remember the word here is unalterable. OK then, back up to Genesis 1:3. God said, “Let there be light.” Now wherever you live it could possibly be night at the time you are reading this, but somewhere else on this planet earth it is day and light is present. Light is always present on the earth and therefore this light is unalterable. Just how did this light come into existence? God already answered that for us. It was spoken. Now what can you or I do to change that? In other words, what can you or I do to make that light stop – thereby essentially altering it? Not one d*** thing! That’s right. There is not one d*** thing you or I can do or more importantly rather, nothing we can SAY to alter what God has already spoken into existence. The only way this light will stop is when God says so. But God hasn’t said “stop” yet, has He? A common misconception most people have is thinking God’s “original creation of light” has somehow stopped. The reality is our universe is, and it has been constantly expanding at an unbelievable breakneck speed. Exactly what speed? It’s about 186,000 miles per second, the same as the speed of light. Again, there is nothing we can do to stop that universal expansion any more than we can stop the light God Almighty first spoke into existence. Why is that? Is it because God is more powerful than the human beings he created? No, it doesn’t have as much to do with power as it does with authority. This is also one of the keys to our operating the law of believing, - understanding authority. In fact it is the largest key. I am more convinced now than ever that what someone says will ultimately come to pass - whether if what they say is positive or negative. I understand more about the power of words, especially the spoken word - the quarks and gluons behind all created matter. Well, I guess one could call it the "law of believing" if they wanted. The only reason the law of believing would not work for anyone is because they tried to believe for something over which they have no authority. Example: I could believe all I wanted you will give me your paycheck, but I may never receive the results of my believing (the receiving of your paycheck). I suppose I could go off complaining to everyone now how the "law of believing" was erroneous because you never handed over your paycheck to me and I never received what I was believing for. Well for one, I don't have the authority over your paycheck. When it comes to your paycheck, you have complete authority there, not me. But there are areas of life where God has specifically given me authority, (and also to you) and it is in those areas where both you and I can operate the law of believing. Yes, there are things in life which God Himself has given us believer’s authority over. It is in those things where we can operate this "law of believing". The law of believing won't work outside an authority God has not given to us. The reason the law of believing doesn't work (and why some perhaps want to put forth an argument there isn't such a law) is because they tried to operate outside the authority God placed this spiritual law - or out of their ignorance of what God has given us believers authority over. I believe VPW had first put it - find out what is available. To that I could only add, discover the authority in the things which God has already made available to you as a born again son or daughter, and then walk in and use the authority God Almighty has given unto you. Of course you can doubt it. You can doubt every word in this post. But like most the things in life - if you doubt it, you will do without it. If you believe it, you will receive it. Well I imagine that’s enough for now. I don’t often post here with these sort of things or with the large postings that Mike often does. There are just way too many other pressing matters for me to attend to. I trust you all understand the situation and I hope this message will also somehow benefit others who will “hear” it. (Well there goes that sound principle again. Possibly I am building more of those quarks and gluons of life myself I imagine.)

Yeah, well the same thing to you too buddy! What makes you think your "experiential knowledge" of God is more perfect than anybody elses??? The fact your own "experiential knowledge" of PFAL is weak (whatever the heck that would be) would also indicate any other source for your knowledge to know God "experientially" would be equally as weak - or weaker. I am more convinced of the later. Your use of the scriptures to cut someone down is beyond pathetic. We are to believe you know God experientially by this pathetic and weak application of the scripture by you? All you have proven is your inability to know the true God experientially more than anything. If you want to prove your "experiential knowledge" of God, here's a bit of advice. Keep your two big ears open and your one big mouth shut until you have something edifying to say. That's included in the "prove all things - hold fast to that which is good" in the exact very same scripture you just used to cut someone down. Or would that be some strange doctrine or form of heresy for you?

Why do we care? That already been answered on the other thread. (My post on: 1/21/05 at:13:33) Why do you care?

Why don't people remember these things? That's an easy one to answer. The reason they don't remember is because they care about the same things that the world cares about. And just what does the world care about? --- Another day, another dollar, another promotion! The entire world is about promoting itself and also with seeing you promote yourself. It's all about self-promotion and self-agrandizement. If it weren't, then the subject of VPW plagarizing other people's works, where he got his degree, etc., etc, etc., ad-nuseum wouldn't have become issues for them. The only reason these things become an issue for some people is because for some people they only care about the same things the world cares about. (2 Corinthians 10:12)

Never heard Christianity put in such distinct terms before. Make God your upline, and He'll give you all the b/v and p/v.

Well IBM's stock has recently fallen from a high of $99.10/share (about a week ago) to around $94.00/share as of today 1/14/05. Maybe what they really aren't happy about is the current market selloff during what is typically supposed to be earnings season. (Do they own IBM?)

The information I posted was taken from the US Department of Health and Human Services - Administration for Children and Families. The link to this information is Child Maltreatment: 2002 found under the heading: Perpetrators. There are likely to be many aspects that affect the accuracy and consistancy of these reports, as well as between these different agencies. Another discrepency perhaps may be not distinguishing between reports of child abuse and child neglect. While a great percentage of physical abuse is caused by fathers and male caregivers, mothers are most often held responsible for cases of child neglect. There are by far a larger number of cases of child neglect reported than of physical abuse, but then, child neglect is just another form of abuse. A greater concern is whether child abuse and neglect is increasing. It could well be, or it could be attributed to improvements in reporting procedures. Consider the following: {This information was also taken from the Administration for Children and Families web site: Child Abuse and Neglect Fatalities} Are Child Abuse and Neglect Fatalities Increasing? The rate of child abuse and neglect fatalities reported by NCANDS (National Child Abuse and Neglect Data Systems) has increased slightly over the last several years from 1.84 per 100,000 children in 2000 to 1.96 in 2001 and 1.98 in 2002. However, experts do not agree whether this represents an actual increase in child abuse and neglect fatalities, or whether it may be attributed to improvements in reporting procedures. For example, statistics on approximately 20 percent of fatalities were from health departments and fatality review boards for 2002, compared to 11.4 percent for 2001, an indication of greater coordination of data collection among agencies. A number of issues affecting the accuracy and consistency of child fatality data from year to year have been identified, including: Variation among reporting requirements and definitions of child abuse and neglect. Variation in State child fatality review processes. The amount of time (as long as a year, in some cases) it may take a fatality review team to declare abuse or neglect as the cause of death. Miscoding of death certificates. What Groups of Children Are Most Vulnerable? Research indicates very young children (ages 3 and younger) are the most frequent victims of child fatalities. NCANDS data for 2002 demonstrated children younger than 1 year accounted for 41 percent of fatalities, while children younger than 4 years accounted for 76 percent of fatalities. This population of children is the most vulnerable for many reasons, including their dependency, small size, and inability to defend themselves. From the pie chart provided at the site the greatest percentage of child abuse and neglect occurs with children 4 years of age and under, with the greater percentage falling on children 1 year of age or less. Sexual abuse accounts for less than 1% of fatal child abuse. A link to a bar chart is on the same page and can also be accessed here: Maltreatment type There is a wealth of information on this site, including the prevention of child abuse and neglect. The URL is located here: Preventing child abuse and neglect

Au contraire. I don't believe anything is getting swept under the rug. Personally speaking I feel there is something wrong with a male who is put directly in the charge and the care of children (regardless of what the gender of the child may be) with perhaps the exception of one who has been put in an administrative function - but definately not the direct care of children. It's just wrong! The whole situation seems very unnatural to me since it is not the tendancy of most men to desire to function or serve as caregivers. Perhaps I am coming off sounding a bit chauvinistic, but it's just not in the male "genes" for men to want to function in that particular role - unless they already have genetic ties to the child, i.e. they are the father. However it cetainly makes me wonder if this case would have received the same attention had the perpetrator been female instead of male, or would this case have been "swept under the rug" if that been the situation? Unfortunately cases of child abuse never receive the same amount of attention by the media unless the female perpetrator commits homicide or some other felony upon their victim. If "SEX" wasn't involved, I highly doubt many would care much about the issue, but that's rarely the case isn't it?

Although this information is now a few years old, it was taken from a very reliable source. This information can be found on the web and it is from the US Department of Health and Human Services. Just because the data is a few years old I wouldn't consider it irrelevant. I believe this data was taken from the year 2003. Amazingly the number of reported child abuse cases reached a record high in 2003 in our state as well, which is by far the highest number ever. In fact, I too was also surprised to learn that females, (specifically female parents) are by far the largest percentage of child abuse perpetrators - and not males. But then, people are still of the opinon that strangers are the largest percentage of child abuse perpetrators, but that perception fortunately is changing. It wasn't until 1968 when Dr. C. Henry Kemp and Ray E. Helfer's book The Battered Child was published that people finally began to realize and be aware that parents and caregivers are by far the greater percentage of child abuse perpetrators and not strangers. People who still think that males are the greater percentage of child abuse perpetrators are simply ignorant of these facts. Since when is child abuse "gender specific?" I find their solution to child abuse to be just as ignorant, as most of them want to execute the ones who happen to be in the smaller percentage and not the larger. ...I always wonder about mommy and why she never says a thing, except for when I'm bad, she yells and hits me till my ears ring... ...I got screamed at again and slapped hard too, my mommy took the belt and hit me with the buckle, and daddy's navy shoe. These lines were taken from the poem: "Daddy's Girl" (Dr. Julie Soule) The poem speaks of a child enduring abuse not only by her father but by both parents - not just "daddy" alone for the poem also contains the line ... Are all mommies and daddies like this I wonder, I think I'll ask my friend, but not until daddy's done, he put my clothes on top of the fridge. Of course all the attention is now on some Mark N. who happens to be with TWI because of his position in TWI. I guess this incident is supposed to make me forget about the ladies who were/are in TWI who carried a "wooden spoon" in their back pocket to every ministry function, or whenever they were with their child. I guess you wanted to impress me how well behaved your child was. Frankly speaking, I was never that impressed to begin with.

It will never happen. End of story. Why? Because they have continuously misunderstood and consequently mis-applied "biblical authority". TWI still thinks of authority pretty much in the same manner the world thinks of it - that is, "How high can you get someone to jump whenever you bark"! (Still remember that PFAL illustration - the private doesn't ask how high to jump, he just jumps!) As long as they continue to hold to this belief it will never happen. Of course to the world that kind of authority is very impressive, but it just doesn't work; biblically speaking. A true man of God is someone who has set himself and put himself under the authority of another. They are not a tyrant or a dictator barking out commands. You know the routine, just getting people to jump every time whenever they happen to bark. That is exactly what TWI expected from it's people and unfortunately, they still expect it from people. But that thinking was wrong and it still is wrong. The story of the Roman centurian in Luke 7:8 clarifies what true authority is about. Luke 7:8 "For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant Do this, and he doeth it." That is simple enough to understand as everyone has a "boss" they must answer to. If you don't carry out the wishes of your boss you won't be in that position very long. Even your boss has a "boss" they must ultimately answer to. If your boss doesn't carry out whatever the "head-hancho" says, then they'll be the next one in the unemployment line right along with you. Even though the Roman centurian was "the boss" in this case and he was in a position to issue commands to soldiers and they were also expected to carry them out, this Roman centurian was still under someone else's authority. That is easily seen by his remark ... "For I also am a man set under authority ...". This Roman centurian may have even been the "head-hancho", but at least he recognized he was still under someone else's authority. Under authority being the keyword here. He was not a dictator or a tyrant -- just barking out whatever commands he wanted to put on the soldiers that happened to be under him in this record. Even if your the 'head-hancho' or the top-dog in your church you're still under someone's authority - the authority of God Almighty! If you don't carry out the wishes of God Almighty then you won't be in that position very long. Although God is very patient and tolerant with all of us, if you continuously fail to carry out His wishes you'll be removed from that position in the church sooner or later. I've seen it happen over and over in many church's before and not just TWI alone.

I guess we all agree he's in "la-la" land.

To clarify my previous post, it is rarely the case where the perpetrator of child abuse does not know the victim. Those cases rarely make headline news unless there is also homicide involved. I don't know of any other reason why this case made headline news except for the fact Mark N. was a minister with TWI at one time. If he wasn't affiliated with TWI it is very doubtful the case would have been considered newsworthy by the media. I believe the only reason this case became newsworthy is because of the previous child abuse cases people have reported that were committed by priests in the Roman Catholic church. Exterminating a child abuser to stop the cycle of child abuse would be extreme and unusual punishment. It's not likely to happen unless the case also involves homicide. I'm not sure what ever became of that woman from Texas who murdered her children in the bathtub about a year or so ago, but I doubt that she was ever "french-fried" for her crimes. She likely got off on some "insanity" plea due to the stress that some women supposedly endure shortly after giving birth to a child. Since females are the largest number and also in the highest percentage of child abuse perpetrators, are you advocating that society should "french-fry" these female parents? Most people are of the persuasion that treatment or counseling of the perpetrator is what is needed to end the cycle of child abuse. Ionically, society wishes to place the majority of that responsibility on the church. Whenever the church fails to maintain it's responsibility to society it now becomes headline news. It still seems pretty cyclic to me.

I would like to point out that many child abusers also happen to be the victims of child abuse themselves. It seems one is supposed to feel sympathy for the victim of child abuse but never the abuser - no, they are to be condemned. That may be the natural response to child abuse, but without this recognition I don't believe the cycle of child abuse can be effectively broken. Sympathy for victim is no more effective treatment for child abuse than condemnation for the abuser. Because abusive behavior is often cyclic, many health and developmental problems in early childhood can lead to behavioral, educational, and psycho-emotional problems in later adolescence and adulthood, which could lead to the recurrence of abusive behavior. Also, many abused children at first appear acquiescent, cooperative, shy, affectionate, and "normal," but this apparent serenity may mask multiple psychological problems. For this reason, detecting and treating health and developmental problems early in life is important. The number of child abuse cases like the one reported on this thread are rare, but it seems cases like this always make the headlines. When they do, it only makes those cases appear to be the norm. However the largest perpetrators of child abuse are usually the parents according to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data Systems most current report. This accounts for about 81 percent of all child abuse cases, which includes birth parents, adoptive parents and stepparents. Other relatives account for an additional 6.6 percent and unmarried partners about 2.9 percent of the perpetrators. Also interesting to note is that it is females who are in the greater percentage of the perpetrators of child abuse than males. In 2002 58.3 percent of child abuse and neglect perpetrators were females and 41.7 percent were males. Most female perpetrators were younger than male perpetrators and 42.5 percent of females as compared to 32.4 percent of males were younger than 30 years old. 40.3 percent of child victims were maltreated by their mother acting alone; another 19.1 percent were maltreated by their father acting alone; and 18 percent were maltreated by both parents. Each state has its own policies and procedures for reporting and investigating child abuse and neglect cases. If you have a case and believe that Child Protective Services mishandled an investigation and the case worker or agency supervisor can not answer your concerns, you can also address your concerns to your State Liaison Officer (SLO) for child abuse and neglect. Each state has a designated SLO for child abuse and neglect.

That's the reason why PFAL can't replace the bible, or should it ever be considered the "final word" on the revelation of Gods Word. You may say PFAL provides keys, but those "keys" are really more "tools" than they are "keys". We have all been called to be workmen of God's Word, but that doesn't imply that a workman will work, that they will use the tools they have been given, or that they will even use those tools correctly. When it comes to God's Word, most people don't want to put in the work it takes or demands to rightly divide it. They would prefer someone else be the workman just so they can sit back and judge someone elses workmanship of God's Word. They are "lazy bums" as far as being a genuine workman of Gods Word themselves - rightly dividing the Word of truth. A real workman of the Word doesn't have time to judge or criticize someone else's workmanship of it. I am not the judge and I don't judge my co-workers workmanship in the natural world, my boss is the one who does that. But whenever it comes to Gods Word, it seems there's always someone around who will attempt to put their big nose into your workmanship sooner or later - like it's really their business to start with? The reason believing may not work for some people is because they are lazy. They would prefer someone else do the believing just as they prefer someone else "divide" God's Word for them and do all the work. That way they can complain that believing doesn't work only because they didn't get some kind of "pay-out" for their "workmanship"? It seems to me if God's approval was on your workmanship, then you should get paid for it. But if you didn't get paid, don't complain. If you didn't get "paid", perhaps you should re-examine your workmanship because it might not be worth what you happen to think it is. Don't complain to me or anyone else. Talk to "The Boss!"