What The Hay

I just stated I quit discussing the topic with certain individuals, not that I gave up on anyone. I quit discussing the topic when I came to the understanding the law of believing works within the context of keeping the law of love, mainly love for God first and then their neighbor (brother). Of course there are people who say they love God but then turn around and treat their brother or sister in Christ like dirt, - speak evil - patronize them. The "acid test" whether someone truly loves God is written in 1 John 4:20. "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" Well I was wrong, because here is certainly one of the reasons why the law of believing would not work - that is, if you're only out to prove the law of believing doesn't work. You would also be correct, but only when you are operating or living outside the context of the love of God. Why expect God to honor believing and perform miracles then? Maybe they should examine the context they are coming from to prove their point of view. That would be the more important question to ask. We all want to see some "Cecil B. DeMille parting of the red sea" type miracle, but man oh man, just don't preach to us and tell us we have to LOVE and FORGIVE our brothers and sisters in Christ. Just don't hand us that stuff here, especially after what they did to us! There are more important things the Lord wants from us, things more important than you proving me wrong or me proving you wrong. That doesn't imply I should not correct someone from God's Word whenever they do wrong. Correction from Gods Word is meant to restore our relationship with God and with our brother/sister in Christ when it is done properly and in love. Correction is not flaunting "spiritual superiority" over someone. All that is, is just human ego and vanity leading one into iniquity. Where iniquity abounds, the love of many waxes (becomes) cold. (Matt. 24:12) I don't recall Jesus arguing with anyone over the subject of believing, he demanded it - except in the case of demented or dead people. There were people he had to put out of the room - chase away on occassion. But he never hung out with people where there was no believing in them, he left. Why? Because where there is no believing there is no love for God or the things of God, the reason I quit discussing the topic with some people as it was revealed which law was most important.

I also touched on this subject on the Masters of the Word thread (I think it was that tread) but I quit discussing the subject with a number of individuals. I came to the conclusion I could not argue anyone into believing - "believing is a law" because the law of believing does not work outside the greater law, which is the law of love. Just about everybody I was discussing the subject with only wanted some "logical argument" to support it. There is no logical argument to support the law of believing anymore than there is a logical argument to support the law of love. Both laws, the law of believing and the law of love, there is only the command from God's Word; and that is - do. What do you want now? I'm sorry, but if the law of believing still does not work for you it is because you have failed at keeping the greater law which is the law of love. If you fulfill that law then the law of believing takes care of itself and nobody can argue you out of it. You don't need any explanation for it either - logical or otherwise.

You would have to quit talking about them to accomplish that. It's not possible to forget something you constantly talk about. That's the biggest reason why they don't go away. That is why I always close my posts with the following:

PBS just did a special the other night on whether or not Wal-mart was good for America. It was fairly controversial. Manufactures used to have a lot of clout for setting the price on the goods they produce, but now retailers like Wal-mart have the most clout by forcing manufactures to drop their price or "we will take our business elsewhere" - i.e., overseas. Wal-mart even wanted one supplier to drop their unit price to .01! That explains why there are many people in China who work in factories for only .25/hr.

Currently I am not putting on any more trades as the market is just now starting to consolidate and pull back a bit. Kmarts stock price has just fallen to $101.43 (as of this afternoon 11/18/04) but overall Kmarts stock is still bullish and in a major up trend. But even with this pull back and the market now starting to consolidate, I don't know how long it will take Kmarts stock price to rise to the level of $150/share that this "expert" predicted. An "expert" also predicted Cisco (CSCO) would rise to $24+ per share 5 or 6 days ago, but Cisco's stock price fell significantly just 2 days after he made that prediction. It may take some considerable time for Cisco's stock price to rise to the level this expert predicted; I am thinking at least another month or two, might take even three. Cisco fell to around $18.00/share or so just a few days ago, but lately it's price has steadily risen to $19.43 over the past few days. Now I am thinking Cisco's stock price may start to consolidate around this price point, at least for a while. From here it just hasn't moved much in the past couple days. Network Appliances (NTAP)on the otherhand has done favorably over the past couple of days. Right now it's stock price is the highest its been since Dec. 2002. Actually its price is higher right now than it was in Dec 02 when it was at $27.95/share, but I am not suggesting anyone should enter a trade on NTAP right now - perhaps a little later they should. Just because its stock price went from $25.00/share up to 29.43 yesterday 11/17/04, I am hesitant to enter a long postion on it and will tell you why. I will wait until the stochastic and the MACD charts rise again to make an entry on it. These stock charts only rose a little bit because of yesterdays gigantic price move, but now they look like they are falling because the overall market is now starting to consolidate. Just because NTAP's stock price rose this afternoon it didn't make the same move in price it did yesterday. In fact NTAP's opening price today was lower than yesterdays close. Even though its current price has now surpassed yesterdays close, NTAP's price hasn't made nearly quite the move it did yesterday and that in itself should tell you something. The market can easily fake you out if you only look at the price movement of a single stock, because stocks in the same sector usually move in tandem with each other. Now there is something positive to be said and also a good example of what risk management and position sizing can do for your portfolio and your stock trading in times like this. Right now the market is taking "a breather" and hopefully after this consolidation there will be a major breakout to the upside. I certainly hope so, as I am currently holding American Eagle Outfitters (AEOS) and Emmis Communications (EMMS). Even though both these stocks have fallen a bit in the past few days, both these stocks are in an uptrend with AEOS currently being in the strongest trend. Fortunately it appears the overall market is still in a very strong uptrend, but even the best trends need to consolidate in order to break out higher or lower as the case may be. So even if you are currently holding Kmart and the price has fallen on you, I am not telling you that you should sell off your long position right now, but I will tell you that you may certainly have to wait quite a while before the stock price makes it to the $150/share level that this expert told you. I certainly hope you have a lot of patience as that seems to be one of the downfalls I have but currently working on. Some of my stock trades would have worked out for me and made considerable money if only I didn't get fearful or emotional at the time and had more patience with them.

Anybody can learn how to do David Blaine's magic "tricks". It doesn't take a debbul spurt to do them. Some of his magic tricks can be found on trickshop.com. (Got $7.95 to buy the e-book?) David Blaines Magic

That's quite a jump in logic to take. Just because there are children of the devil does not make the devil equal to God any more than there are a lot of creeps out there who are fathers of illegitimate children make them equal to men of moral integrity. Being a father just means someone is a male - it doesn't make one male equal or less equal to any other male. The devil doesn't have to be equal, omnicient, omnipresent or anything else in order to give seed - he just has to be male. There is a group of people (typically feminists) who want to put forth the arguement God is not male. They have a difficult time accepting and dealing with that concept mainly because most of them have an extremely poor (or non-existant) relationship with their earthly father. They haven't put forth the argument of the devil not being male to the same degree, but apparently the same erroneous mentality has crept over the border line and entered into the "so-called" Christian church.

While the Pharisees claimed they were of Abraham's seed (in John 8:33) Jesus recognized the same in his response to them in verse 37 of the same chapter. Was Jesus recognizing the Pharisees then as being children of "the father of all who believe?" Of course not. While the Pharisees certainly wished to claim that for themselves, Jesus only recognized them of being of Abrahams seed or bloodline. Here is an example in the word of God where "seed" is being put and used for "bloodline" (not that the Pharisees were the physical sons of Abraham) but here in God's word it is the figure of speech synecdoche. A synecdoche is putting "part for the whole". An example of this figure of speech would be used in the phrase, "1000 head of cattle" - where the part (the head) represents the whole (cattle). In this verse of scripture we see the part (seed) being used and put for the whole (bloodline). Does this figure of speech then, synecdoch, negate the Pharisees literally being Abraham's children? No it doesn't. What it emphasizes is they came from the same physical bloodline (lineage) that Abraham's physical children did. Not all Abraham's children were believers though, nor were Adam's. The Pharisees certainly wished to confuse the issue however. From the spiritual point of view (and truthfully) they would have done just as well to claim themselves being of Adam's seed (bloodline) rather than Abraham's as far as Jesus was concerned - as the entire human race is Adam's seed.

The acid test of determining whether a phrase in the Bible is to be taken literally or figuratively is whether the phrase is being used as a plain, simple, matter-of-fact statement, or if the phrase is being thrown into a peculiar form, different from its original or simplest meaning or use. There is nothing figurative in the statement "child of God" anymore than the phrase: "child of the devil" as the phrase is not being thrown into a peculiar form. Bullinger stated, "There are figures used in the English language, which have nothing that answers to them in Hebrew or Greek; and there are Oriental figures which have no counterpart in English; while there are some figures in various languages, arising from human infirmity and folly, which find of course, no place in the word of God. It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e. literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e. as a figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth, or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employeed. And as it is employed only to call our attention to some specially designed emphasis, we are at once bound to diligently examine the figure for the purpose of discovering and learning the truth that is thus emphasized." [From: Note on Figures in General, "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" - Bullinger] If the phrase "child of the devil" was used as a figure of speech in the Bible, then it would only add and put emphasis to the literal meaning of the phrase - it certainly would not detract from or remove its literal meaning. For example: "The ground is thirsty" is a figure of speech, but this figure does not detract or remove the literal meaning of the phrase: "The ground is dry", (the literal meaning). It is usually a common misconception that figures of speech give the literal phrase less meaning, but when they are properly understood figures of speech always emphasize the literal meaning. If your claiming "child of the devil" is only to be taken as a figure of speech, then you are emphasizing the literal meaning of the phrase - not detracting from or removing the literal meaning. But if this was your intent, to remove the literal meaning of the phrase, then it is evident you do not understand what figures of speech really are.

In the gospel of John in chapter 8 Jesus gets into a very heated debate with the Pharisees. In verse 44 of Jesus boldly declares the Pharisees to be of their father the devil. The word for father here is pater and is also the same word Jesus used when he spoke of his Heavenly father. When Jesus declared God was his father, was he just communicating that as a "figure of speech", or was he truly the Son of God - literally? You decide.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" (1 John 3:10) The Greek word for children in this verse (used in: children of the devil) is: teknon. Teknon is used as one who "is born". It is translated most often in the bible as: child (77 times) daughter (1 time) son (21 times). From all the other uses of this word one can easily see that "birth" is always involvled. I don't believe the doctrine is questionable, but what may be questionable is attempting to identify exactly who is born of the devil - that certainly can be. When TWI attempted to identify those who were born of the devil today it just opened the door on the doctrine itself being questionable. We know from God's Word Cain was of the devil (1 John 3:12). Cain had to do something other than just reject Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit, because Jesus wasn't around for Cain to reject Him when he was alive. The holy spirit Jesus came to make available on Pentecost wasn't around either. It had not occurred when Cain alive... so Cain had to do something other than just reject Jesus and the gift of the holy spirit in order to become born of the "wicked one". Cain certainly was not the only old testament person born of the wicked one. The devils children have been around since the days of Cain. One interesting thing to note about the devils children is that they have always tried to get rid of the promised messiah - Jesus Christ. In the old testament they tried to accomplish this by murdering someone through whom Christ was supposed to come. I wouldn't go so far as trying to name "names" as TWI has done in saying who today is born of the devil, but I would probably give the most credence to to those who are doing their utmost to prevent his second coming - by renouncing it and also making others renounce it. So I am not in total disagreement with the above post.

If you mean "the Gospel of Christ"="salvation" then I agree with you, but as far as these things having to do with the Christian walk, that is where the Word of God disagrees with you. (2 Timothy 2:15). The paramount question one must ask is to what degree do these things affect my Christian walk? Some things may affect the Christian walk slightly while others things can and do have a very great impact. I believe there are plenty of people here who are struggling with issues that have affected their Christian walk to a great degree. If I come to know the truth of the scriptures I then become responsible for what I know. Once someone knows the truth of God's Word they also become responsible for what they know. Once someone knows the truth of God's Word and then they decide to deny the truth, (for whatever reason they believe is justifiable) it negatively effects their Christian walk regardless if they recognize it or not. But all these things affect the Christian walk consequently, either slightly or very significantly.

Here is your answer rascal: Those people aren't even true to themselves, so why would they be truthful with anyone else?

Some people unfortunately will never get it (learn) as long as they have someone else to blame for their decisions. It is always VPW (or somebody else) it could never be me! Those people aren't even true to themselves, so why would they be truthful with anyone else? I've accepted the fact there are people in this world who don't want to take responsibility for the decisions they've made so all they do is blame other people for their bad decisions. As long as they have somebody else to blame they'll never learn. If you want to feel sorry for them then that's your problem.

Well that would certainly be a big mistake. See Psalm 118:8. BTW, the principle of tithing works Oldies. I personally know someone who tithes OVER $2,000.00 a month. If that is only 10% of his monthly income, then how much does he make a month? He probably tithes more in a month than what most people make - and those people are usually the ones who complain the most about the law of tithing not working. The reason tithing never worked in TWI is they kept propounding the love of money was evil, (i.e. if you were seeking to be rich you were putting money ahead of God) which naturally leads people to think evil about having money, so TWI really never helped people in that category of their life in practical terms. It is hypocritcal of a church to ask 10% and above of someones income, but then never teach or give people practical instructions on HOW to increase there income by at least that amount. The reason I don't reply to people like rascal (or post here very often) is because most people only want to argue their point of view instead of asking questions. I am not saying they are unintelligent or their points of view aren't valid - they only want to argue their point of view. I find there are so many "intelligent" people who argue or defend when a new idea or point of view clashes with the way they think. In this case their so-called "intelligence" combined with their "arrogance" equals "ignorance". Arrogant (critical) people are often people you will find with low self-esteem, people who are afraid of taking risks - consequently afraid of making mistakes. Did VPW make mistakes? Heck, he probably made more than anybody. But in order to learn something new one is required to make mistakes in order to fully understand what they have learned. That doesn't mean I have to repeat them, but one can certainly learn from their mistakes as well as the mistakes that others have made. So what if some people want to throw out everything they learned in TWI. You know what they are telling me? They are saying they are arrogant - that what they learned in TWI is not important and then they use their arrogance to hide their ignorance. I see the same thing occur when I am discussing financial statements with accountants and other investors. There are a many people in the world of money, finances and investments who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Most people in the money industry are just spouting off sales pitches - much like used car salesmen. They act like a lot of people here. What are people selling here? They are out to "sell" everybody that VPW was nothing but a loathsome corrupt individual - likewise with LCM/TWI/ETC. Does that mean they are lying? I didn't say they were. They're not lying, but then, they are not telling the truth either because they are throwing that one out as well.

Where's the beef? [boy, isn't that an old line!] :D-->

That's a ludicrous (and ignorant) conclusion to come to CW. It almost sounds as if your saying life can't teach anybody anything so one should toss it all out. People also learn from mistakes they make. I haven't found a single person yet who ever tossed out that education.

There is an old saying, "Gold is still gold, even in a fools pocket." Do you propose tossing out the gold, or in tossing out the fool? Better be very careful here. When it comes to anybody completely understanding the truth about God, we are all damn fools.

Why waste all your time looking at VPW? Your better off looking at the fruit in your life rather than his or anybody elses. The context of Galatians is not about examining somebody else's "fruit" or their flesh. It is about "faith which worketh by love", not about justifying the flesh through the works of the law. Just for the record I saw more of Galatians 5:22,23 in VPW's life than any other minister I ever met. I still have many tapes where he taught God's Word while he was alive, so I know I have a better picture of the man VPW was rather than your (and others) spewing the same old regurgitated venom that primarily came out of the mouth of his critics way back when. The fruit in VPW's life (not from his critics POV but from actual past records of VPW) shows a completely different picture than what you and others at GSC keep propounding. You all keep sounding like: "Crazy Miranda, lives on propaganda - she believes anything she reads. It could be one side or the other, Free Press or Time Life covers. Follows newsprint anywhere it leads ..." (borrowing from an old Jefferson Starship tune.) Just because I see a different picture of VPW than what you see (from whatever slanted P.O.V. yours happens to be) that doesn't make me or anyone else an idol worshiper of VPW. I only have a very small (tape) record of the type of person VPW was, not a complete record of his life. But you don't have a complete record on the life of VPW nor does anybody else, so your conclusion of who VPW was is no more conclusive and accurate than mine - or anybody elses for that matter! To answer the question, was VPW a man of the Spirit? The answer to that question would be both yes and no, not one or the other. The people who insist on a single answer to that question are people who have some "personal agenda" - and whether they want you to be for or against VPW. The only problem with their personal agenda is, it's not the true God's agenda.

Well that is the part you got right Shaz. The reason you are struggling with the other parts (like a lot of people are) is because you haven't learned that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself. The Japanese are aware of these three powers - the power of the sword, the power of the jewel, and the power of the mirror. The sword symbolizes the power of weapons (fighting). The jewel symbolizes the power of money. There is a degree of truth to the saying, "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules." The mirror symbolizes the power of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, according to Japanese legend is the most treasured of the three. But when it comes to life pushing you around, most people rely on one or both of the first two powers. But if they used the "power of the mirror" (the knowlege of self) they would ask, "Does this make sense?" All to often instead of trusting their inner wisdom most people go along with the crowd. They reason they do things is because everybody else does it. They conform rather than question. The reason they don't question is because the fear of being ostracised, the fear of standing out, the fear of criticism, the fear of ridicule, the fear of being an outcast. It is that same fear, the fear of ostracism that causes people to conform to the crowd and not question commonly accepted opinions or popular trends. I see it here all the time. And it is the fear of being different that prevents most people from seeking new ways to solve their problems. That is why the Japanese value the power of the mirror the most, for it is only when we humans look into the mirror do we find the truth. But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self. Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe". The reason people say that is out of fear. You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us. The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships.

Nah, I wouldn't say that about her or anybody else, but I would say the truth. Your a bunch of actors [hypocrites] acting out and playing like you have honor integrity and faith when you have little or none at all. On Oct. 17 Wordwolf says this regarding VPW: But then changes his tune real quick about VPW. Wooohoooooo... -->But here in lies the problem: WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. The winner mentality. As Word Wolf replies: [...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ] The loser (victim) mentality. What is WordWolf talking about? He's talking about the victim mentality. I'd say all you got was a taste of life Rascal (and I'd say the same thing to others who are in the same boat) -- and life is the best teacher of all - not VPW or TWI. The only problem is life does not talk to you, it just sort of pushes you around. But each push is life saying, "WAKE UP! There's something I want you to learn." If you learn life's lessons, you'll do well. If not, life will only continue to push you around. There's a couple things people do about it though. Some just let life push them around. They "suck-it-up" (if you want to put it that way) and live life playing-it-safe - doing all the right things at the right time (acting pious and religious) but they never take any risks. HYPOCRITES! Then others get angry and push back. Only problem is they push back against other people, whether it is their boss, their husband, their wife - or perhaps a ministry or some minister. HYPOCRITES! Yeah well, life pushes all of us around. Some give up. Others fight. There's just a few who learn the lesson and decide to move on. Some welcome life pushing them around, but only a few. To these few, it means they need and want to learn something. They learn and move on. Most however quit (there's a lot of people who quit TWI, but they aren't here discussing TWI, VPW or LCM - their just quiters) and then there are a few of you who only like to fight. If you don't learn life's lesson, you'll continue blaming others - VPW, TWI, LCM, or your job, your boss, and everything and everyone else for all the problems that life throws at you. The worst part of it is there are plenty of people just like you who live out their life hoping for some "big break" (or for some other spiritual guru) that will come along and solve all their problems. But if all your doing is fighting and blaming someone else - you still haven't learned life's lesson!

Perhaps that's because you (and even others) prefer to mind the things of the flesh and not the things of the spirit - and I am especially refering to those who really love to go around wearing the "minister" tag in the Christian church and wish to be recognized as one. The apostle Paul wasn't perfect even after he was born again. That is why Galatians 4:13,14 says... Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Some have gone so far as to remark that the apostle Paul was a "changed man" after being born again - implying he never made any mistakes after he was born again. That isn't the testimony of God's Word. The truth is the apostle Paul never let the infirmites of his flesh bug him or keep him from teaching the truth of God's Word [i'm sure the acts of his flesh really bugged the self-righteous Pharisees though. They always seem to come around whenever someone is speaking the truth of God's Word] as he kept preaching the gospel despite the infirmities of his flesh. I'll never understand why people want to bring up the works of a dead minister - someone who died nearly 20 years ago. I've come to realize it's because it makes them (their flesh) look real big and spiritual and important both to themselves and to others - it really puffs up their ego. The result is they stir up other peoples emotions (the flesh) for the purpose of getting others to think evil, to stir up strife, hatred and bitterness among the brethren. Doesn't the Word of God say these are also the works of the flesh? What is amazing to realize it is always these acts that end up manifested - not the dead works of a dead VPW or any other minister you happen to dislike - whether they are dead or alive! WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD. All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. Certainly you don't need me or anyone else to remind you of you it. But if your only out to prove to others that your the spiritual top dog, the least you could do is quit minding his work and start minding your own. Time is very short!

JT... (FYI) His name was Publilius Syrus. Publius was his later modified name, such as Christian--Chris.

This certainly doesn't speak very highly of those he plagarized from then does it?

I got the opportunity to teach twigs a number of times when I first become involved in TWI - but this was after I had taken PFAL. Other believers in the area got their turn at teaching fellowships too. This was in the mid 70's, and of course I got plenty of opportunity to teach fellowships while a WOW ambassador - but again this was in the 70's. Things got more tight handed in TWI right after the POP and I never got asked by a twig leader if I wanted to teach at fellowship after that. I think people not being able to teach at fellowship had a big effect on the fellowships in the area falling apart. I guess the twig leader was probably afraid somebody would teach something off the Word.