Bramble can post whatever I say in a pm as Bramble decides.
Yeah..lol....thanks Abigail....i don't think anyone needs rescueing from me though, just think i can help some people, could be wrong-i have been before-i joined the way at one time..lol...
Heehee. Thanks for the job offer, Allan, but I just started a new job which has fabulous benefits--something that is not so easy to find in a small town, so I am not looking for a career change. The health insurance alone will save us thousands of dollars annually, and the dental plan includes orthodontics! Plus I have no medical background.
My dad died in hospice from a terminal illness( my dad was a disabled vet, exposed to radiation during WW2, his health was never the same). He was in hospice for a month prior to his death, and I can't praise those people enough. His death was peaceful and not a pain ridden tortuous one, which it could have been. Two of his hospice nurses came to his funeral because they cared for him and the family.
Dancer's pm to me had nothing to do with the hospice movement or any type of 'recruitment.' Sheesh.
And I don't feel I need to be 'saved'. Scary thought, actually. Look where it took me the last time I let someone 'save' me!
To be fair and offer what MAY be the other side/perspective . . . .
My mom died of cancer not too long after I joined TWI (within the first year). Hospice was very involved during her last few months, even though we were taking care of her at home.
I found the experience with hospice to be a very negative one, but ONLY because I was very indoctrinated with the teachings of TWI. So, looking at it from Allan's perspective I do have some understanding of where he is coming from.
That being said, I will finish by saying, despite my own misgivings about hospice when my mom was dying, I do know that she found them to be a tremendous comfort.
The Kabbalah teaches that death is simply the beginning of a new life. However, IMO for those left behind, it is an enemy because it leaves an emptiness and sorrow in our lives.
When my mother was dying I was very young and not ready to let her go. Add to that, I was fully pursuaded that if she would simply believe what was taught in TWI, she would be healed and live. The funny thing is, it is entirely possible my mom was a Christian long before I ever got involved with TWI. After my step-dad died, she took to watching the tv evangelists.
Anyway, the truth is that people die. Christian, non-Christian, believer, unbeliever, doesn't matter. For my mom, I am sure death was a relief, she had been sick and suffering for a long time. By the last week or two she was so drugged up she didn't really know where she was or who anyone around her was anyway. I think Hospice helped her set aside her fears of death, so that when she did go, she was at peace.
Galatians 5: 1-4 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith CHRIST has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall PROFIT you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumsised, that he is a DEBTOR TO DO THE WHOLE LAW.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE. "
Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. etc..
Whether it was twi or some other Christian outfit that someone belonged to, IF they were enlightened in the meaning of the grace that comes by way of JESUS CHRIST then to me they are without excuse.
5-14.
Chas is right, I do come across as 'sledgehammerish' at times and I hope you believe I bear no ill-will toward you in what I have posted Abi, but I believe these verses sum up what can happen. Maybe twi leadership and others will bear judgement for the trouble they have caused. Bless you.
If I may say it, the beliefs that you carry from TWI, that you embrace, could also be considered a religion. Yeah, TWI stated they were "non-denominational" or "inter-denominational" - but did they put up with the practice of any other religion(s) within their knowledge? No. Did they progress in their beliefs to something better than where VPW took things? No - not really. LCM's demolition of the research department is proof of that. You are no longer a member, correct? So... How would you label yourself now?
I am similar to you, AW, in that I still believe much of what I was taught in TWI. However, I probably question what I was taught more than you do. That last statement is, of course, an assumption. I still believe that Jesus Christ is God's son - not God, that the dead are not alive, and so on...
So, even if someone is born again, and knows the Word, does it mean that they are not "saved" if they change their belief system? I know that you know the answer to that. They are still saved. You see it as being entangled with a yoke of bondage - and I respect that, too. However, it also begs the question - Did you consider your time in TWI to be totally without bondage?
By the way... I'm framing the first sentence of the last paragraph of your post. "Chas is right" - AW
Can you say that again? Please? It sounds so good coming from you! :) (This is just me, messing with YOU!)
Absolutely there was bondage in twi and definitely still is, but that to me does not nullify any truths behind a lot of the Word taught. And I believe twi leadership 'used that' as a 'lever' to enslave and mistreat people.
If one thinks of the most liberal-minded church that may be around today and asks the same question, the answer would be the same. It is the Word taught that either stands or falls on it's own merits(as far as the truth and accuracy is concerned.) People come and go, instituitions rise and fall etc...
I found an interesting article about Hagar and rather than starting a new thread, thought I would share a bit of it here.
Hagar was the daughter of King Pharoh of Egypt. She was not just some poor, uneducated slave (which is sort of the impression I was always left with). She decided to go with Abraham and Sarah after seeing the miracle by which God saved Sarah from Pharoh. Her name means, "this is the reward". She is one of the rare people who was privileged to meet an angel of God not once, but twice.
I was of the impression that Hagar was somehow unworthy in God's sight, because of the way the story is told in the Bible. But in reality, Hagar was very much a Godly woman. Her son Ishmael became a mighty nation (Both Arab and Beduin tribes claim to be descendants of Ishmael). After Sarah died, Hagar was reunited with Abraham and went on to have many more children, who also raised nations known as Hagarites.
Those who follow Mohammed also tell about Hagar and in general, agree with the O.T. and oral traditions of the Jews. To them Hagar was the ancestor of their prophet Mohammed, and they attribute all kinds of miracles to her, which have not been passed down in Jewish traditions.
Imagine if, instead of fighting over everything we disagree on - we could actually sit down and share some of these various histories with each other? Imagine what we could learn!
This thread is the most refreshing thing I've found to read in a long time. It actually rekindles my love for Christ.
Abi, I like your last post. Now I need some fellow-reasoning together:
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he [who was]of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. (Galatians 4:21-31)
I thought of this part of Paul's letter when you spoke of Hagar. What do we make of this? It also gives me a chance to ask a question I've had for awhile. What of the OT quote in here? Why should the barren rejoice in light of casting out Hagar?
I hope you know, Carl, that I am missing "House" to respond to this - and it is the only TV show I even watch (well other than Scrubs, but I have to wait til fall to see the next season of that) - lol.
It is funny that you bring this up, because earlier I was thinking Paul must have been very skilled at interfaith dialogue, given that his background was in Judaism, and he was preaching Christ to the gentiles. I was actually reading some of Paul's writings earlier and saw this too, and wondered about it.
I will start by saying that I think that in the Torah, as well as the Gospels and Epistles, there are many layers and many meanings to much of what is written. I think that it, like many scriptures, speaks to the duality of our nature and the choices we must make because of it. Hagar and Sarah, bond and free. Ishmael and Isaac, earthy and spiritual, Esau and Jacob, also worldly and Godly and again with Rachel and Leah. The theme is repeated over and over.
When we do anything, simply because it is law and with no other understanding (be it the O.T. laws, the tithe or abundant sharing, whatever), and especially when we derive our sense or feeling of righteousness from it, we accomplish nothing spiritual. We aren't growing in God, we aren't drawing down the Shechina, we aren't walking by the spirit. In addition, we are then placing ourselves in bondange to the law, for when we break that law, we lose that sense or feeling of righteousness. As it says: "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children"
In contrast, when we do things with an understanding of why we do them, then they are no longer laws to us, because we do them cheerfully. Even within Christianity there are "rules", boundaries, guidelines that are to be followed, yes? So I think in some sense you can undestand this. When we do things cheerfully, we do not do them to gain righteousness because we already know God has a dwelling place within us. We are then doing them for spiritual reasons and we are drawing down the shechina.
This is also what Jesus taught, is it not? Part of the reason why he reproved the Pharisees? For imposing laws with no understanding, for placing people in bondange instead of giving them understanding?
I will work on finding an answer to your question, but I cannot find the quote in the Old Testament, so it may take me some time.
I am still working on your question, but I have yet to find the document Paul was quoting. One thing which did occur to me, that might be of interest to you. In Romans Paul likens Jesus to Adam, refers to him as the second Adam.
Well, Sarah is likened to Eve in the same way. I explained this in another thread, but I will cut and paste it here as well . . .
Shechina is the Divine spirit that dwells within us. What drove Eve to eat of the Tree was the desire to immerse herself in all the beauty of the world - her desire to experience everything. This is attributed to the Shechina within her and the Shechina's desire to permeate all. However, because Eve ate the fruit at the improper time, she imprisoned the Sechina and made her subject to the male aspect and man.
It was Sarah who first began the process of freeing the Sechina. Abraham himself could not do it, in that he is male - but he empowered Sarah to do it when he sent her to Pharoah. Sarah went to Pharoh (descended into the lair of the snake) and resisted the lure. She decended into darkness, but maintained her connection to the light (Abraham). So it is Sarah who is in a sense spiritually considered to be the mother of us all. So she who was barren had not one child, but many.
Exactly, Sharon. :) It is good to see you hear- I hope you will contribute more.
Carl, I found the quote, it is from Isaiah 54:1
One commentary I found on this section discusses how Isaiah is trying to comfort the people by showing them that the "The wife forsaken and forlorn is now embraced with great compassion" - Andrea L. Weiss
Assistant Professor of Bible Hebrew Union College.
Another commentary I found explains that this section was written during the Babylonian exile after the destruction of the first temple. The people feel forsaken and barren because their homes have been destroyed and their children exiled. Therefore, Isaiah is offering them comfort and encouragement. The forlorn wife represents Israel.
Another version or reading of this verse from the Midrash states: "'When the Temple was standing, it brought forth for Me (God) wicked men, like Ahaz, Manasseh, and Amon (wicked kings), yet when it was destroyed, it raised up for Me righteous men, like Daniel and his friends, Mordechai and his friends, Ezra and his friends"
In other words, in destroying the physical temple, many more cried out to God and yearned for God, than during the days when the temple stood because in times of prosperity we often become overly satisfied and arrogant which leads to destructive behavior, while in times of adversity a person tends to work on spiritual and moral growth.
So Sarah, who was barren and desolate ultimately had many more children than Hagar, who was not barren.
In that we rejoice.
The other parallel is that while Jesus was alive, few understood or believed in what he was teaching. Yet, after he was killed (made desolate) look how many now desire to understand and follow what he taught.
I've learned a lot about Judaism from you this past year and continue to be amazed and enlightened. I have amuch greater respect for Judaism and am truly fascinated and impressed with their encouragement and excitement for actual discussion, questioning and tolerance for differences.
I've been, like you did previously, studying all kinds of beliefs, philosophies, and whatnot. Sort of coming up with my own mish-mash of what I tend to believe "right now" like Bramble. :) But that's also subject to change at any moment given whatever I'm pondering at the time.
I have begun seeing much more spirituality in the Bible since leaving TWI and the energy and spiritual references such as what you've mentioned here. The gospel of Mary recently found and released to the public also focuses on the connection we all have (all, without exception ). And here I thought that was ground breaking only to find out that the Kabbalah and other Jewish teachings have been saying that for eons.
I love the way you explain the ritual and symbolic meanings behind them. It makes so much more sense than doing things out of obligation as well as being expected or required to do them like TWI taught. I just may start lighting candles with you on Friday nights. I really like that and the connection to others you mentioned.
The spirit and death are also points on which we agree. Much more, too! Maybe I'm becoming Jewish?
well I guess you'll have to come up for some bagels and lox then, Belle!
And I would love it if you could post a bit about what you learned from the Gospel of Mary! This is an Interfaith dialogue discussion, afterall. :)
I've been really enjoying my studies and the questions I am asked here help give me a focus, which is nice. I have been toying with the idea of visiting a Chassidic temple in Flint some day, but I am sort of nervous about it too. I love the teachings, but I will never be disciplined enough to do what they do.
However, one of my aunts went to a festival at one in Novi and had a great time, so I may ask her to join me for a service.
Abi, I appreciate your efforts. Thank you. I just recently discovered how very watchable "House" is. My eight-year-old son actually likes to watch it.
What you said about having the right attitude hit home. I spent years meditating regularly and experienced all the benefits. Especially the growing real love in my heart for the golden silence AND simply the great love for life and all things. But (I think it be karma) I've spent years not meditating.
I think my attitude is a big problem. Because I'm not on a program I don't feel righteous. And so my several false-starts lately have felt puffed-up with self-righteousness. And yet I know I'm wrong to have this attitude. Maharishe has made it crystal clear over the decades that our attitude about our program should be the same as taking a shower. Who spends their whole day thinking they are "all that" because they took a shower? How can I hold the right attitude? Meditate and forget it?
I'm interested in Hinduism and Christianity. How far back is Kabbalah? There are dates and then there are dates. For instance, there are important things that claim to go back thousands of years of hinduism yet some important things only go back to the first millenium A.D. And then Christianity has roots in Judaism as we know. Wiccan claims to go back a long time but some contest that it really is only put-together in the early twentieth century.
Kabbalah. How far do we really know it goes back? Other than that does the workd "ayin" mean anything to your Kabalah?
Carl, the ayin is the sixteenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet and its numerical value is 70. 70 represents a person who is in total control of his emotional attributes - one who has mastered himself.
It also represents the Torah enshrouded in humility and it represents salvation. Ayin also refers to the midpoint of your head, between your eyes.
In Kabbalah ayin is the source of creation which clothes itself within the created being.
Did you come across Ayin in your Hindu studies? I would be interested in what you have learned about it.
With respect to the history of Kaballah, this is how I recall it. Like many religions, those who follow Kabbalah believe it dates back to "in the beginning". It is believed to be part of the oral tradition that was handed down through the generations, starting with Adam.
(As an interesting tidbit - you may recall being taught in TWI that the difference between a Saduccee and a Pharasee was that the Saduccees did not believe in life after death. However, in my studies today I discovered that is not correct. The difference is that the Pharasees (such as Paul) believed in the Oral Traditions and the Saduccees did not, they only followed the written Torah and were rigidly adherent to a very literal interpretation of the Torah.)
Initially, Kabbalah was taught only to the wisest and most educated Rabbi's. Then, if my memory of history is correct, it became more public and somewhat popular in the 1400 - 1500 A.D. time frame. During a time of persecution in Europe (Spain? Russia?) a Rabbi began teaching Kaballah to all men over the age of 40 and well schooled in Talmud and Torah who wanted to learn. It is only recently, through the Chassidic movement and the advent of the www that anyone who wanted to learn could access these teachings.
Todd, it is wonderful to see you again. I will check out your links a bit later when I have more time.
I have been learning a bit about an amazing medieval interfaith movement in Spain, involving Jews, Muslims, Christians and others (such as Celts). And yeah, there was a horrible persecution in the 15th century, where millions of people and books and buildings were destroyed. And being that this Iberian mysticism movement was such an important part of the larger original Hospice movement of Europe, a lot of good things seemed to die at once in those days. And it seems we have never quite recovered from it.
It seems someone wicked was emboldened by news of the discovery of a new world with an 'endless' supply of exploitable riches.
It won't be wrong to state that God did not make man in His own image as the OT says, but instead man made God in his own image. God is indeed a timeless and formless entity. Just like Allah of Islam, the Tao of Taoism, and Ayin of the Kabbalah have no definition, the God of Hinduism has no definition. In the Kabbalah, the Jewish mysticism, Ayin means "nothing." Ayin is beyond existence. Ayin has not attributes. When Moses asked God, "Who are You?" the answer came from the burning bushes, "I am what I am." That clearly proves that Jehovah ("i am") is not a being with human attributes.
If one can understand the forces within, then one will be able to understand all the forces in nature. In the Jewish Kabbalah, man is viewed as being a mircrocosm, a minute picture of the universe. The Kabbalah has a belief similar to Hinduism's that man's actions can affect the universe, and the that the universe in turn can affect the well being of man.
Abigail, the above two statements come from Am I a Hindu? by Ed. Viswanathan. I'm pretty sure there are several other mentionings of Kabbalah in this Hindu Primer but without an index I'm skimming pages to find them. When you read those to quotes from Ed. Viswanathan, what are your thoughts on what he wrote?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
29
11
16
24
Popular Days
Jun 27
15
Jun 28
12
Jun 30
11
Jun 25
11
Top Posters In This Topic
Abigail 29 posts
Oakspear 11 posts
allan w. 16 posts
dancing 24 posts
Popular Days
Jun 27 2006
15 posts
Jun 28 2006
12 posts
Jun 30 2006
11 posts
Jun 25 2006
11 posts
dancing
lol....
Bramble can post whatever I say in a pm as Bramble decides.
Yeah..lol....thanks Abigail....i don't think anyone needs rescueing from me though, just think i can help some people, could be wrong-i have been before-i joined the way at one time..lol...
another great day!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Seems allan is the one who is scared to death of everything..lol...
That's why he's here i think, he needs what God can give.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Heehee. Thanks for the job offer, Allan, but I just started a new job which has fabulous benefits--something that is not so easy to find in a small town, so I am not looking for a career change. The health insurance alone will save us thousands of dollars annually, and the dental plan includes orthodontics! Plus I have no medical background.
My dad died in hospice from a terminal illness( my dad was a disabled vet, exposed to radiation during WW2, his health was never the same). He was in hospice for a month prior to his death, and I can't praise those people enough. His death was peaceful and not a pain ridden tortuous one, which it could have been. Two of his hospice nurses came to his funeral because they cared for him and the family.
Dancer's pm to me had nothing to do with the hospice movement or any type of 'recruitment.' Sheesh.
And I don't feel I need to be 'saved'. Scary thought, actually. Look where it took me the last time I let someone 'save' me!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
To be fair and offer what MAY be the other side/perspective . . . .
My mom died of cancer not too long after I joined TWI (within the first year). Hospice was very involved during her last few months, even though we were taking care of her at home.
I found the experience with hospice to be a very negative one, but ONLY because I was very indoctrinated with the teachings of TWI. So, looking at it from Allan's perspective I do have some understanding of where he is coming from.
That being said, I will finish by saying, despite my own misgivings about hospice when my mom was dying, I do know that she found them to be a tremendous comfort.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Yeah dieing is a part of life.
From twi's perspective it is the devil...lol.
Edited by dancingLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
The Kabbalah teaches that death is simply the beginning of a new life. However, IMO for those left behind, it is an enemy because it leaves an emptiness and sorrow in our lives.
When my mother was dying I was very young and not ready to let her go. Add to that, I was fully pursuaded that if she would simply believe what was taught in TWI, she would be healed and live. The funny thing is, it is entirely possible my mom was a Christian long before I ever got involved with TWI. After my step-dad died, she took to watching the tv evangelists.
Anyway, the truth is that people die. Christian, non-Christian, believer, unbeliever, doesn't matter. For my mom, I am sure death was a relief, she had been sick and suffering for a long time. By the last week or two she was so drugged up she didn't really know where she was or who anyone around her was anyway. I think Hospice helped her set aside her fears of death, so that when she did go, she was at peace.
Edited by AbigailLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
What is the anamcara project?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
If I may say it, the beliefs that you carry from TWI, that you embrace, could also be considered a religion. Yeah, TWI stated they were "non-denominational" or "inter-denominational" - but did they put up with the practice of any other religion(s) within their knowledge? No. Did they progress in their beliefs to something better than where VPW took things? No - not really. LCM's demolition of the research department is proof of that. You are no longer a member, correct? So... How would you label yourself now?
I am similar to you, AW, in that I still believe much of what I was taught in TWI. However, I probably question what I was taught more than you do. That last statement is, of course, an assumption. I still believe that Jesus Christ is God's son - not God, that the dead are not alive, and so on...
So, even if someone is born again, and knows the Word, does it mean that they are not "saved" if they change their belief system? I know that you know the answer to that. They are still saved. You see it as being entangled with a yoke of bondage - and I respect that, too. However, it also begs the question - Did you consider your time in TWI to be totally without bondage?
By the way... I'm framing the first sentence of the last paragraph of your post. "Chas is right" - AW
Can you say that again? Please? It sounds so good coming from you! :) (This is just me, messing with YOU!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Absolutely there was bondage in twi and definitely still is, but that to me does not nullify any truths behind a lot of the Word taught. And I believe twi leadership 'used that' as a 'lever' to enslave and mistreat people.
If one thinks of the most liberal-minded church that may be around today and asks the same question, the answer would be the same. It is the Word taught that either stands or falls on it's own merits(as far as the truth and accuracy is concerned.) People come and go, instituitions rise and fall etc...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I'm going to be away for a few days, spending time with my children on Lake Michigan. I'll see ya in a while :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I found an interesting article about Hagar and rather than starting a new thread, thought I would share a bit of it here.
Hagar was the daughter of King Pharoh of Egypt. She was not just some poor, uneducated slave (which is sort of the impression I was always left with). She decided to go with Abraham and Sarah after seeing the miracle by which God saved Sarah from Pharoh. Her name means, "this is the reward". She is one of the rare people who was privileged to meet an angel of God not once, but twice.
I was of the impression that Hagar was somehow unworthy in God's sight, because of the way the story is told in the Bible. But in reality, Hagar was very much a Godly woman. Her son Ishmael became a mighty nation (Both Arab and Beduin tribes claim to be descendants of Ishmael). After Sarah died, Hagar was reunited with Abraham and went on to have many more children, who also raised nations known as Hagarites.
Those who follow Mohammed also tell about Hagar and in general, agree with the O.T. and oral traditions of the Jews. To them Hagar was the ancestor of their prophet Mohammed, and they attribute all kinds of miracles to her, which have not been passed down in Jewish traditions.
Imagine if, instead of fighting over everything we disagree on - we could actually sit down and share some of these various histories with each other? Imagine what we could learn!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Carl Smuda
This thread is the most refreshing thing I've found to read in a long time. It actually rekindles my love for Christ.
Abi, I like your last post. Now I need some fellow-reasoning together:
I thought of this part of Paul's letter when you spoke of Hagar. What do we make of this? It also gives me a chance to ask a question I've had for awhile. What of the OT quote in here? Why should the barren rejoice in light of casting out Hagar?Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I hope you know, Carl, that I am missing "House" to respond to this - and it is the only TV show I even watch (well other than Scrubs, but I have to wait til fall to see the next season of that) - lol.
It is funny that you bring this up, because earlier I was thinking Paul must have been very skilled at interfaith dialogue, given that his background was in Judaism, and he was preaching Christ to the gentiles. I was actually reading some of Paul's writings earlier and saw this too, and wondered about it.
I will start by saying that I think that in the Torah, as well as the Gospels and Epistles, there are many layers and many meanings to much of what is written. I think that it, like many scriptures, speaks to the duality of our nature and the choices we must make because of it. Hagar and Sarah, bond and free. Ishmael and Isaac, earthy and spiritual, Esau and Jacob, also worldly and Godly and again with Rachel and Leah. The theme is repeated over and over.
When we do anything, simply because it is law and with no other understanding (be it the O.T. laws, the tithe or abundant sharing, whatever), and especially when we derive our sense or feeling of righteousness from it, we accomplish nothing spiritual. We aren't growing in God, we aren't drawing down the Shechina, we aren't walking by the spirit. In addition, we are then placing ourselves in bondange to the law, for when we break that law, we lose that sense or feeling of righteousness. As it says: "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children"
In contrast, when we do things with an understanding of why we do them, then they are no longer laws to us, because we do them cheerfully. Even within Christianity there are "rules", boundaries, guidelines that are to be followed, yes? So I think in some sense you can undestand this. When we do things cheerfully, we do not do them to gain righteousness because we already know God has a dwelling place within us. We are then doing them for spiritual reasons and we are drawing down the shechina.
This is also what Jesus taught, is it not? Part of the reason why he reproved the Pharisees? For imposing laws with no understanding, for placing people in bondange instead of giving them understanding?
I will work on finding an answer to your question, but I cannot find the quote in the Old Testament, so it may take me some time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I am still working on your question, but I have yet to find the document Paul was quoting. One thing which did occur to me, that might be of interest to you. In Romans Paul likens Jesus to Adam, refers to him as the second Adam.
Well, Sarah is likened to Eve in the same way. I explained this in another thread, but I will cut and paste it here as well . . .
Shechina is the Divine spirit that dwells within us. What drove Eve to eat of the Tree was the desire to immerse herself in all the beauty of the world - her desire to experience everything. This is attributed to the Shechina within her and the Shechina's desire to permeate all. However, because Eve ate the fruit at the improper time, she imprisoned the Sechina and made her subject to the male aspect and man.
It was Sarah who first began the process of freeing the Sechina. Abraham himself could not do it, in that he is male - but he empowered Sarah to do it when he sent her to Pharoah. Sarah went to Pharoh (descended into the lair of the snake) and resisted the lure. She decended into darkness, but maintained her connection to the light (Abraham). So it is Sarah who is in a sense spiritually considered to be the mother of us all. So she who was barren had not one child, but many.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sharon
my very small imput~
“Whatever Sarah tells you,” G–d told Abraham, “listen to her.” (Genesis 21:12)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Exactly, Sharon. :) It is good to see you hear- I hope you will contribute more.
Carl, I found the quote, it is from Isaiah 54:1
One commentary I found on this section discusses how Isaiah is trying to comfort the people by showing them that the "The wife forsaken and forlorn is now embraced with great compassion" - Andrea L. Weiss
Assistant Professor of Bible Hebrew Union College.
Another commentary I found explains that this section was written during the Babylonian exile after the destruction of the first temple. The people feel forsaken and barren because their homes have been destroyed and their children exiled. Therefore, Isaiah is offering them comfort and encouragement. The forlorn wife represents Israel.
Another version or reading of this verse from the Midrash states: "'When the Temple was standing, it brought forth for Me (God) wicked men, like Ahaz, Manasseh, and Amon (wicked kings), yet when it was destroyed, it raised up for Me righteous men, like Daniel and his friends, Mordechai and his friends, Ezra and his friends"
In other words, in destroying the physical temple, many more cried out to God and yearned for God, than during the days when the temple stood because in times of prosperity we often become overly satisfied and arrogant which leads to destructive behavior, while in times of adversity a person tends to work on spiritual and moral growth.
So Sarah, who was barren and desolate ultimately had many more children than Hagar, who was not barren.
In that we rejoice.
The other parallel is that while Jesus was alive, few understood or believed in what he was teaching. Yet, after he was killed (made desolate) look how many now desire to understand and follow what he taught.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
WOW! Awesome thread, Abigail!
I've learned a lot about Judaism from you this past year and continue to be amazed and enlightened. I have amuch greater respect for Judaism and am truly fascinated and impressed with their encouragement and excitement for actual discussion, questioning and tolerance for differences.
I've been, like you did previously, studying all kinds of beliefs, philosophies, and whatnot. Sort of coming up with my own mish-mash of what I tend to believe "right now" like Bramble. :) But that's also subject to change at any moment given whatever I'm pondering at the time.
I have begun seeing much more spirituality in the Bible since leaving TWI and the energy and spiritual references such as what you've mentioned here. The gospel of Mary recently found and released to the public also focuses on the connection we all have (all, without exception
). And here I thought that was ground breaking only to find out that the Kabbalah and other Jewish teachings have been saying that for eons. 
I love the way you explain the ritual and symbolic meanings behind them. It makes so much more sense than doing things out of obligation as well as being expected or required to do them like TWI taught. I just may start lighting candles with you on Friday nights. I really like that and the connection to others you mentioned.
The spirit and death are also points on which we agree. Much more, too! Maybe I'm becoming Jewish?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sushi
The only requirement, Belle, is you have to LOVE Chinese food.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
well I guess you'll have to come up for some bagels and lox then, Belle!
And I would love it if you could post a bit about what you learned from the Gospel of Mary! This is an Interfaith dialogue discussion, afterall. :)
I've been really enjoying my studies and the questions I am asked here help give me a focus, which is nice. I have been toying with the idea of visiting a Chassidic temple in Flint some day, but I am sort of nervous about it too. I love the teachings, but I will never be disciplined enough to do what they do.
However, one of my aunts went to a festival at one in Novi and had a great time, so I may ask her to join me for a service.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Carl Smuda
Abi, I appreciate your efforts. Thank you. I just recently discovered how very watchable "House" is. My eight-year-old son actually likes to watch it.
What you said about having the right attitude hit home. I spent years meditating regularly and experienced all the benefits. Especially the growing real love in my heart for the golden silence AND simply the great love for life and all things. But (I think it be karma) I've spent years not meditating.
I think my attitude is a big problem. Because I'm not on a program I don't feel righteous. And so my several false-starts lately have felt puffed-up with self-righteousness. And yet I know I'm wrong to have this attitude. Maharishe has made it crystal clear over the decades that our attitude about our program should be the same as taking a shower. Who spends their whole day thinking they are "all that" because they took a shower? How can I hold the right attitude? Meditate and forget it?
I'm interested in Hinduism and Christianity. How far back is Kabbalah? There are dates and then there are dates. For instance, there are important things that claim to go back thousands of years of hinduism yet some important things only go back to the first millenium A.D. And then Christianity has roots in Judaism as we know. Wiccan claims to go back a long time but some contest that it really is only put-together in the early twentieth century.
Kabbalah. How far do we really know it goes back? Other than that does the workd "ayin" mean anything to your Kabalah?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
thinking of interfaith dialogue...
thought i would post links to some related threads
not to revive them
but to refresh our memory of some interesting conversations we've had in this context
(and tried to have)
Interfaith Dialogue
How can love be manifest via written dialogue?
Open Assumptions and Common Ground
Spiritual Dialogue Sessions
Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racisms
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Carl, the ayin is the sixteenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet and its numerical value is 70. 70 represents a person who is in total control of his emotional attributes - one who has mastered himself.
It also represents the Torah enshrouded in humility and it represents salvation. Ayin also refers to the midpoint of your head, between your eyes.
In Kabbalah ayin is the source of creation which clothes itself within the created being.
Did you come across Ayin in your Hindu studies? I would be interested in what you have learned about it.
With respect to the history of Kaballah, this is how I recall it. Like many religions, those who follow Kabbalah believe it dates back to "in the beginning". It is believed to be part of the oral tradition that was handed down through the generations, starting with Adam.
(As an interesting tidbit - you may recall being taught in TWI that the difference between a Saduccee and a Pharasee was that the Saduccees did not believe in life after death. However, in my studies today I discovered that is not correct. The difference is that the Pharasees (such as Paul) believed in the Oral Traditions and the Saduccees did not, they only followed the written Torah and were rigidly adherent to a very literal interpretation of the Torah.)
Initially, Kabbalah was taught only to the wisest and most educated Rabbi's. Then, if my memory of history is correct, it became more public and somewhat popular in the 1400 - 1500 A.D. time frame. During a time of persecution in Europe (Spain? Russia?) a Rabbi began teaching Kaballah to all men over the age of 40 and well schooled in Talmud and Torah who wanted to learn. It is only recently, through the Chassidic movement and the advent of the www that anyone who wanted to learn could access these teachings.
Todd, it is wonderful to see you again. I will check out your links a bit later when I have more time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
these articles might help:
Spanish Jews
Golden Age of Jewish Culture in Spain
The Golden Age of Arab-Jewish Coexistence
Sephardi Jews
Alhambra decree
I have been learning a bit about an amazing medieval interfaith movement in Spain, involving Jews, Muslims, Christians and others (such as Celts). And yeah, there was a horrible persecution in the 15th century, where millions of people and books and buildings were destroyed. And being that this Iberian mysticism movement was such an important part of the larger original Hospice movement of Europe, a lot of good things seemed to die at once in those days. And it seems we have never quite recovered from it.
It seems someone wicked was emboldened by news of the discovery of a new world with an 'endless' supply of exploitable riches.
:blink:
Good to see you too, Abi
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Carl Smuda
It won't be wrong to state that God did not make man in His own image as the OT says, but instead man made God in his own image. God is indeed a timeless and formless entity. Just like Allah of Islam, the Tao of Taoism, and Ayin of the Kabbalah have no definition, the God of Hinduism has no definition. In the Kabbalah, the Jewish mysticism, Ayin means "nothing." Ayin is beyond existence. Ayin has not attributes. When Moses asked God, "Who are You?" the answer came from the burning bushes, "I am what I am." That clearly proves that Jehovah ("i am") is not a being with human attributes.
If one can understand the forces within, then one will be able to understand all the forces in nature. In the Jewish Kabbalah, man is viewed as being a mircrocosm, a minute picture of the universe. The Kabbalah has a belief similar to Hinduism's that man's actions can affect the universe, and the that the universe in turn can affect the well being of man.
Abigail, the above two statements come from Am I a Hindu? by Ed. Viswanathan. I'm pretty sure there are several other mentionings of Kabbalah in this Hindu Primer but without an index I'm skimming pages to find them. When you read those to quotes from Ed. Viswanathan, what are your thoughts on what he wrote?
Edited by Carl SmudaLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.