Jesus knew the comforter would come before he died Luke 24:49 the Father had promised, he knew he needed to be killed as well. He was the sacrafice for mans sins.
it was not given untill pentecost tho. (in birth) jesus needed to be glorified by the Father.
Acts 11:4 tells of when Peter was given the revelation for the gentiles.
1 corinthians chapter 2: verse 7-9 says what she was explaining to you that the "princes of this world" would not have crucified the Lord.
Double D: OK. Romans 16:25,26 starts it. Then check out Eph. 3:1-12. Jesus didn't know he died for gentiles too until after his ressurection. Paul got the nod to reveal it, but Peter practiced it in Acts 10 when he ministered to a gentile household. There is much documentation that this Jew/gentile one body stuff was a serious challenge to many Christians at that time, but many others handled it well.
I mean, think about it. It would be hard to practice charity on someone you thought was equal to a dog.
Whoops. Double D, the verses about if satan knew...etc. are 1 Corinthians 2:7,8. Also check out 1 Timothy 3:16.
and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
the following word God is a trinitarian forgery. It should be the word which.
...mystery of godliness which was...
1)manifest in the flesh, (Acts 2 where the 12 spoke in tongues)
2)justified in the spirit
3)seen of angels
4)preached unto the gentiles
5)believed on in the world, and
6)received up into glory (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...Christ comes BACK!).
This verse gives the entire range of the mystery, beginning to end. If the devil had had any clue that you as a Christian were going to have Christ in you, he certainly would not have had Jesus crucified.
Whoops. Double D, the verses about if satan knew...etc. are 1 Corinthians 2:7,8. Also check out 1 Timothy 3:16.
and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
the following word God is a trinitarian forgery. It should be the word which.
...mystery of godliness which was...
1)manifest in the flesh, (Acts 2 where the 12 spoke in tongues)
2)justified in the spirit
3)seen of angels
4)preached unto the gentiles
5)believed on in the world, and
6)received up into glory (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...Christ comes BACK!).
This verse gives the entire range of the mystery, beginning to end. If the devil had had any clue that you as a Christian were going to have Christ in you, he certainly would not have had Jesus crucified.
Johniam,
Can you give me the references to that ''theory'' of a forgery?
I am not and have never been in the Way; however, my best friend was about 30 years ago. She and her husband left, I don't know when, but it's been a long time. From time to time when we get into bible discussions she brings up "The Mystery".
According to her, Wayers were taught that Christ did not know until he was on the cross that he was also dying for gentiles and also, that if Satan had known, he would have prevented Christ from dying, or something to that effect.
I have asked her what verses in the bible was this based on, but she can't remember. Can someone tell me the verses this idea came from?
There's more than one issue here.
Here's how I see it.
Did satan know the full results of the crucifixion?
I believe he did not, and that the verses show this.
Let me know if you need me to run through it.
Did Jesus know the ramifications of his sacrifice?
I question whether he would have carried out his instructions without an extreme REASON.
So, I don't have a verse saying he absolutely DID know, but I see know verses
saying he did NOT, and my OPINION is that his knowing was the only sensible justification
for enduring what he did.
As to the Gentiles thing being a surprise to satan, ALL of it was a surprise to him.
As to the Gentiles thing being a surprise to Jesus, I see no reason to even suspect
it, let alone support it.
If vpw taught this-and judging from some of the responses, it seems he did-
Thanks WW, I did look it up ahead of time, but didn't understand where the "which" part made it say anything untrinitarian or trinitarian.............and knowing VPW's record, wasn't sure how this happend or where he got his info.
as for Jesus knowing the fullness of what he was doing.............maybe/maybe not. What I do know, is that he was in COMPLETE OBEDIENCE to HIS FATHER, and that alone is enough for me to believe the "WHY" he did it. He wasn't thinking of ME the moment he was on the cross.....he was trusting His Father totally.
If it says God was manifest in the flesh, aren't they trying to say Jesus is God? But if it says which then it refers back to the mystery of godliness connecting it with all 6 characteristics listed; not just manifest in the flesh. I agree with Bliss that Jesus was being obedient to God no matter what he knew or didn't know.
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dmiller
Hiya Double D. Welcome to Greasespot.
Don't be surprised if you find this topic moved to the Doctrinal Forum,
although it is a legitimate question asked about twi.
I'll have to think a bit, to get the verses right.
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pond
Romans 10, 11-13.
is one
Jesus knew the comforter would come before he died Luke 24:49 the Father had promised, he knew he needed to be killed as well. He was the sacrafice for mans sins.
it was not given untill pentecost tho. (in birth) jesus needed to be glorified by the Father.
Acts 11:4 tells of when Peter was given the revelation for the gentiles.
1 corinthians chapter 2: verse 7-9 says what she was explaining to you that the "princes of this world" would not have crucified the Lord.
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johniam
Double D: OK. Romans 16:25,26 starts it. Then check out Eph. 3:1-12. Jesus didn't know he died for gentiles too until after his ressurection. Paul got the nod to reveal it, but Peter practiced it in Acts 10 when he ministered to a gentile household. There is much documentation that this Jew/gentile one body stuff was a serious challenge to many Christians at that time, but many others handled it well.
I mean, think about it. It would be hard to practice charity on someone you thought was equal to a dog.
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johniam
Whoops. Double D, the verses about if satan knew...etc. are 1 Corinthians 2:7,8. Also check out 1 Timothy 3:16.
and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
the following word God is a trinitarian forgery. It should be the word which.
...mystery of godliness which was...
1)manifest in the flesh, (Acts 2 where the 12 spoke in tongues)
2)justified in the spirit
3)seen of angels
4)preached unto the gentiles
5)believed on in the world, and
6)received up into glory (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...Christ comes BACK!).
This verse gives the entire range of the mystery, beginning to end. If the devil had had any clue that you as a Christian were going to have Christ in you, he certainly would not have had Jesus crucified.
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Double D
Thank you so much for your responses. Now I can begin my study and research on this.
DD
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bliss
Johniam,
Can you give me the references to that ''theory'' of a forgery?
I can't seem to find any. Just wondering.
What ''text'' has it as ''which''?
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WordWolf
That it's supposed to be "which" is easy to check- just grab an Interlinear.
It's "which", not God.
So, on that, I'd say Johniam was correct.
However,
the "forgery" statement was completely unsupported.
I myself have taught on this before, and am convinced that it was an
ACCIDENTAL MISTAKE by a translator going from the Greek to the English.
IIRC, Walter C made the same claim in the Fundamentals of Biblical
Research "class" (that it's easy to see it was a mistake, that is.)
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WordWolf
There's more than one issue here.
Here's how I see it.
Did satan know the full results of the crucifixion?
I believe he did not, and that the verses show this.
Let me know if you need me to run through it.
Did Jesus know the ramifications of his sacrifice?
I question whether he would have carried out his instructions without an extreme REASON.
So, I don't have a verse saying he absolutely DID know, but I see know verses
saying he did NOT, and my OPINION is that his knowing was the only sensible justification
for enduring what he did.
As to the Gentiles thing being a surprise to satan, ALL of it was a surprise to him.
As to the Gentiles thing being a surprise to Jesus, I see no reason to even suspect
it, let alone support it.
If vpw taught this-and judging from some of the responses, it seems he did-
I find this to be error.
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bliss
Thanks WW, I did look it up ahead of time, but didn't understand where the "which" part made it say anything untrinitarian or trinitarian.............and knowing VPW's record, wasn't sure how this happend or where he got his info.
as for Jesus knowing the fullness of what he was doing.............maybe/maybe not. What I do know, is that he was in COMPLETE OBEDIENCE to HIS FATHER, and that alone is enough for me to believe the "WHY" he did it. He wasn't thinking of ME the moment he was on the cross.....he was trusting His Father totally.
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johniam
If it says God was manifest in the flesh, aren't they trying to say Jesus is God? But if it says which then it refers back to the mystery of godliness connecting it with all 6 characteristics listed; not just manifest in the flesh. I agree with Bliss that Jesus was being obedient to God no matter what he knew or didn't know.
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WordWolf
I myself had a complete stranger, back in my twi days, invoke this verse as "proof"
of the Trinity.
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johniam
Wait, was this stranger in TWI? I knew a few trinitarians who for whatever reason chose to hang around TWI.
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