imo children have to learn that if the parent wants to go get gas and the car wash
they have no say in that dicision
i am the parent
I'm guessing you're a drill sergeant type of parent, cool?
I will agree with you being the parent, cc. And as such, you have been charged with raising responsible kids. But the point of all this is, whenever possible, we want to give our children choices instead of orders. This way, they get to make a lot of decisions when the price tag is affordable. Like it was said on the audio, you don't give a kid the choice of playing out in the middle of the road. When life or limb are at stake, the kid does NOT get a choice.
But say, howabout the dinner table? Do you want the blue cup or the red cup? A big fork or a little one? etc.
One of the benefits of this approach is, when the kid is deciding between two choices, he/she doesn't have the energy to argue with us. It also gives them practice for when they venture out into the real world.
Isn't this what we want to do? Make sure our kids are prepared for the real world? Would it be better to start now, when the price tags are small, or wait until the kids get bigger? Just as little Johnny gets bigger, so do the price tags for repairing mistakes.
What I think we want to do is, get that still small voice in our childrens' heads to connect with their brains so they subconsciously ask themselves, "How is this decision going to affect MY life?".
Love & Logic works... knew about it for years and even got 'shamed' from someone in TWI for giving our children 'choices' (some b.c. dick tater)
Resucing was the first thing I stopped~ unless it's an emergency that needs attention... like a paramedic ;) ... I will bring 'things' to school, if it's discussed ahead of time, as in.. 'Mom, this won't fit on the bus, and I need it at 'this time'... would you help me?
I agree w/ Abi... some things don't fit because of age and personal beliefs... but there is plenty that does!
Listening & watching Jim Fay in an auditorium was thrilling. I did think, some of this stuff would never work w/ one of my kids! But, the message gives hope and empowerment to the parent, allowing us to get closer to the goals we have for our children... teaching them to be independent, making good choices... (It is logical and loving)
I admit, I have one child that can push my buttons and make me forget my counseling techniques fairly quickly... my solution has been 'vowing' not to get angry... it's working!
Sushi, when you run your class, will you teach what's available and how to recieve it? How about practice sessions for delivering the "I'm sorry you're in this mess... this must be tough..." message That would be fun!
oh... another question... what's w/ the glove in the avatar? Anything exiting going on you'd like to share about?
Sushi, when you run your class, will you teach what's available and how to recieve it? How about practice sessions for delivering the "I'm sorry you're in this mess... this must be tough..." message That would be fun!
That actually is suggested in the facilitator's guide, SV. It is something I'm going to incorporate the next time I run the class. I guess I was so nervous the first time, I just wanted to get through it. <_<
"I'm sorry you're in this mess... this must be tough..." message.........
I see a problem with this approach. If you say you're sorry (especially a male child), it gives the impression YOU did something wrong. It is far better to say, "Bummer", or, "What are you going to do?" or whatever empathetic response you've decided on.
Lastly, pick the one you can say sincerely (I know this can be tough at times) and stick to it like crazy glue. Your child will come to the realization, arguing with you isn't going to get him anywhere and the behavior will dramatically decrease.
I see a problem with this approach. If you say you're sorry (especially a male child), it gives the impression YOU did something wrong. It is far better to say, "Bummer", or, "What are you going to do?" or whatever empathetic response you've decided on.
Lastly, pick the one you can say sincerely (I know this can be tough at times) and stick to it like crazy glue. Your child will come to the realization, arguing with you isn't going to get him anywhere and the behavior will dramatically decrease.
Sushi is 100% right about sticking to certain catch phrases. I have found if one of the boys is not listening or is engaging in an unapproved of activity, all we have to do is say "No problem" and they immediately correct their behavior now.
all we have to do is say "No problem" and they immediately correct their behavior.
"No problem" is an almost magical phrase. Delivery of the phrase is also important. You have to say it with a smile on your face. Then, even the dumbest/oppositional kid in the world can pick up that if the parent says, "No problem", it means no problem for the parent. But, POSSIBLE problem coming up for the kid.
I think the Houndog and I are a combination of all 3...however, he defers to drill Sargent when I am not around and doesn't see much gray. It also depends on which kids--which phase--ie. teenagers or 1st graders, the temperment at the time....(did the kid get chewed up and spit out at school that day) or is everything looking good....you know there is no real one way....
I have a list of "what they really mean" "what they thought you meant" phrases that are very enlightening to people or are not intuitive to younger methods of communication.
okay - maybe nobody will read this, but I will still get reminded of the things I want to think about--up front - thanks Sushi!
He (Greg Baer, M.D. breaks these phrase out to:
1. The Lie
2. The Truth
3. Discussion
1st phrase - "how any time do I have to tell you?"
I have tried not to say this, I have ,but not often as I am the only 1 out of 4 that is not Dyslexic an there are 2 out of 4 with Add or ADHD n the house, but what I read made me stop using this phrase.
The truth: "I can't believe you're so stupid-but you must be, because I have to keep telling you the same things over and over. My life is so empty and unhappy that I require everything around me to go smoothly or I get upset and angry. So when you don't listen to me, or when you inconvenience me in any way, I don't want to think about teaching and loving you. I selfishly attack you and try to make you do what I want."
Discussion: "When we feel unloved and empty ourselves, its easy to forget that our role as a parent is to teach and love our children. When we don't have any love to give, we require them to make our lives easier, or at least not to inconvenience us. When they fail to meet that expectation, we attack them. When we say "How many times do I have to tell you..." our children finish that sentence in their heads with the words, "you idiot," or something similar. Its a terrible thing for a child to hear."
I think this is saying its a cop out to blame the kid....like the definition of insanity...if you keep telling a kid something and its not working...why do the same thing and expect different results.
okay - maybe nobody will read this, but I will still get reminded of the things I want to think about--up front - thanks Sushi!
He (Greg Baer, M.D. breaks these phrase out to:
1. The Lie
2. The Truth
3. Discussion
1st phrase - "how any time do I have to tell you?"
I have tried not to say this, I have ,but not often as I am the only 1 out of 4 that is not Dyslexic an there are 2 out of 4 with Add or ADHD n the house, but what I read made me stop using this phrase.
The truth: "I can't believe you're so stupid-but you must be, because I have to keep telling you the same things over and over. My life is so empty and unhappy that I require everything around me to go smoothly or I get upset and angry. So when you don't listen to me, or when you inconvenience me in any way, I don't want to think about teaching and loving you. I selfishly attack you and try to make you do what I want."
That may or may not be the case, ww. The reason I believe it is difficult for parents when they get stuck in protection mode from the birth of the child. It is appropriate when the child is a baby, or the baby likely will not survive. However, if this is continued, the child will not pick up on those survival skills (such as not touching a hot iron, meaning, how is my next decision going to affect ME) necessary for when they leave the house.
The difficulty comes in because the parent loves the child dearly and doesn't want anything bad to happen to them. I believe this is a counterproductive approach to raising a responsible kid. You let them make mistakes when they are young and the price tag is affordable.
It is much more painful for the parent than it is for the child, not like when we were young and our parents said, "This is going to hurt you a lot more than it's going to hurt me!!!"
This is by no means a guarantee the child will grow up to be a responsible adult, but I do think it significantly raises the odds.
Discussion: "When we feel unloved and empty ourselves, its easy to forget that our role as a parent is to teach and love our children. When we don't have any love to give, we require them to make our lives easier, or at least not to inconvenience us. When they fail to meet that expectation, we attack them. When we say "How many times do I have to tell you..." our children finish that sentence in their heads with the words, "you idiot," or something similar. Its a terrible thing for a child to hear."
Again, that may or may not be the case. I agree with the "How many times do I have to tell you" thing, though. But sometimes, imposing consequences is more painful for the parent than it is for the child. Perhaps they feel like they're setting a trap for their kids, and maybe, they are. But at least it is under more controlled conditions than they would encounter in the real world, the one we're preparing them for.
I remember watching Marty Stouffer's "Wild America". On one show, it showed him raising a bear from a cub. While the cub was growing up, they had a grand old time. At the end of the show, he had to prepare the bear for the real world. What he did was to set a trap. Not one that would permanently injure the bear, but one that would cause enough pain to cause the bear to think about what it was doing. It was a heart wrenching point in the show. The cub he had grown to love and cherish was now a full grown bear, and he had to cope with the knowledge of what he had to do in order for his 'child' to go out in the real world and make it on his own.
I suspect some will say this is a bad analogy, kids aren't animals (you haven't seen ours on a Saturday morning ), but analogies have a tendency of not being exact.
I think this is saying its a cop out to blame the kid....
Perhaps. But, what I think happens is, saying it relieves the child of the responsibility of their behavior.
like the definition of insanity...if you keep telling a kid something and its not working...why do the same thing and expect different results.
Kids are a lot smarter than we generally give them credit for. In time, they will learn, if only we will teach them, however painful it is for us as parents.
I think there is merit to a lot of what you and Dr. Baer said. I think its the idea that a parent only or at least most frequently says this, because they have not figured out how to communicate most especially with tweens and teens. With toddlers, I am personally hoping the parent is watching enough that the "times" of the "how many" have not escalated to extremely unsafe amounts...(increased risk)
These expressions can be extremely helpful for the young child but - I am really thinking about children who are old enough to form some concepts past survival safety and are moving toward understanding rational logic and are cognizant of concepts. This is why I think we cut them off at the knees many times by not trying to communicate with them in terms that demand our standard to parenting but show respect at the same time.
...other expression that fall under the "Stop That" can communicate less than what we want.
"Stop Fighting...
"Be Quiet....(Is it becasue we are just irritable and don't want to work at accommodating all needs in the room)
"can't you hold still... (The parent may expect an 8 year old to sit still for 2 hours - (give me a break) many adults expect chilodren to act like adults
"Do you have to make that much noise with your gum....
(as opposed to please close your mouth when you chew because its noisey and people will not get the best impression)
"Whatever you're doing in the next room - Stop it!... (talk about a condescending lazy reproof) (Stop having fun...talking...breathing)
it is not to say that a parent is not a valid contributor to training for socially acceptable behavior - but at all points we teach, whether we realize it or not and we need to think about what our comments (these off the cuff quips) actually teach.
Since this seems to be a private conversation , my apologies for not getting back sooner. It's been a bit hectic around here.
This is why I think we cut them off at the knees many times by not trying to communicate with them in terms that demand our standard to parenting but show respect at the same time.
Agreed. Imagine if we talked to our spouses (significant others) the way we sometimes talk to our kids. Say they come home with a traffic ticket. This isn't the first time. You say, "You know, dear, this isn't the first time you've gotten a traffic ticket. How many times do we have to have this conversation? (said with appropriate disdain)".
How many times as a kid did we get lectured? Did it change our behavior? Perhaps, just to avoid the lecture. But is that how we want to teach our kids?
Now, imagine this scenario. Significant other comes home with the traffic ticket. You say (with appropriate, real, empathy), "Wow, dear, that really sucks. What are you going to do about that?"
When I first moved to Michigan, I got popped for not having my seat belt on. In New Jersey it wasn't a reason a police officer could pull you over. A while later, I got popped again (apparently, I'm a slow learner ). Amazingly, the officer didn't lecture me either time. He just handed me the ticket. I am now rather fastidious about putting my seat belt on. :)
What I'm getting at is, the anger, lectures, threats and warnings parents often employ are less than optimal for raising the odds of raising responsible kids. If we can manage to eliminate (a lofty goal, no doubt) these from our vocabulary, we will have a much better time with our kids.
yeah - interestingly -- hubby got a ticket this week....after 15 years of now ticket-- a camera one at that...when he got home -- we just all laughed.
Another interesting thing is this week, I have had to talk witht he principal of my daughter's school. Abby knows my tenacity---at any rate...there is a Special Ed teacher supposed to be teaching reading) who on more than one occaision I have had to remind that telling my child "Hurry Up" will not make her hurry up. That and many other things were the topics of our phone call. This woman has no children. But, I think of the parents on the recording you linked....
Over and over we say things and yet these things we say don't work....
Maybe parent talk ---Or even Drill sargents, helicopters and sargents applies to adults in more than just parenting circumstances.
By the way -- I think this topic can be intimidating for some and boring for others...consequently only us clinical types will entertain this stuff.
Abby knows my tenacity---at any rate...there is a Special Ed teacher supposed to be teaching reading) who on more than one occaision I have had to remind that telling my child "Hurry Up" will not make her hurry up.
This goes into the 'art' of control. The 'law' of control dictates, never take any more control than you absolutely need (i.e., when life or limb are in danger). Because when you try to get ALL the control, you end up giving it all away. Would you rather have control on your terms, or your kid's?
Over and over we say things and yet these things we say don't work....
Yes, the definition of insanity.
Maybe parent talk ---Or even Drill sargents, helicopters and sargents applies to adults in more than just parenting circumstances.
I think it does also. These methods have a good likelihood of working for adults as well.
By the way -- I think this topic can be intimidating for some and boring for others...consequently only us clinical types will entertain this stuff.
While I don't consider myself a 'clinical type', perhaps you're right. Maybe what it comes down to, most of the people's kids here are grown and out of the house. Those who have kids at home may have to hit 'rock bottom' in order to consider other parenting styles.
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Sushi
Okay, there's more, HERE!
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Sushi
Bump
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Ca_dreaming
Hey there, I am really enjoying this, so keep it coming. Thanks!
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excathedra
can i get a summary ?
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coolchef
imo children have to learn that if the parent wants to go get gas and the car wash
they have no say in that dicision
i am the parent
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Sushi
I'm guessing you're a drill sergeant type of parent, cool?
I will agree with you being the parent, cc. And as such, you have been charged with raising responsible kids. But the point of all this is, whenever possible, we want to give our children choices instead of orders. This way, they get to make a lot of decisions when the price tag is affordable. Like it was said on the audio, you don't give a kid the choice of playing out in the middle of the road. When life or limb are at stake, the kid does NOT get a choice.
But say, howabout the dinner table? Do you want the blue cup or the red cup? A big fork or a little one? etc.
One of the benefits of this approach is, when the kid is deciding between two choices, he/she doesn't have the energy to argue with us. It also gives them practice for when they venture out into the real world.
Isn't this what we want to do? Make sure our kids are prepared for the real world? Would it be better to start now, when the price tags are small, or wait until the kids get bigger? Just as little Johnny gets bigger, so do the price tags for repairing mistakes.
What I think we want to do is, get that still small voice in our childrens' heads to connect with their brains so they subconsciously ask themselves, "How is this decision going to affect MY life?".
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Sushi
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SafariVista
Thanks for posting this Sushi :)
Love & Logic works... knew about it for years and even got 'shamed' from someone in TWI for giving our children 'choices'
(some b.c. dick tater)
Resucing was the first thing I stopped~ unless it's an emergency that needs attention... like a paramedic ;) ... I will bring 'things' to school, if it's discussed ahead of time, as in.. 'Mom, this won't fit on the bus, and I need it at 'this time'... would you help me?
I agree w/ Abi... some things don't fit because of age and personal beliefs... but there is plenty that does!
Listening & watching Jim Fay in an auditorium was thrilling. I did think, some of this stuff would never work w/ one of my kids! But, the message gives hope and empowerment to the parent, allowing us to get closer to the goals we have for our children... teaching them to be independent, making good choices... (It is logical and loving)
I admit, I have one child that can push my buttons and make me forget my counseling techniques fairly quickly... my solution has been 'vowing' not to get angry... it's working!
Sushi, when you run your class, will you teach what's available and how to recieve it? How about practice sessions for delivering the "I'm sorry you're in this mess... this must be tough..." message
That would be fun!
oh... another question... what's w/ the glove in the avatar? Anything exiting going on you'd like to share about?
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Sushi
That actually is suggested in the facilitator's guide, SV. It is something I'm going to incorporate the next time I run the class. I guess I was so nervous the first time, I just wanted to get through it. <_<
"btw, your check is in the mail"
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Sushi
I see a problem with this approach. If you say you're sorry (especially a male child), it gives the impression YOU did something wrong. It is far better to say, "Bummer", or, "What are you going to do?" or whatever empathetic response you've decided on.
Lastly, pick the one you can say sincerely (I know this can be tough at times) and stick to it like crazy glue. Your child will come to the realization, arguing with you isn't going to get him anywhere and the behavior will dramatically decrease.
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Abigail
Sushi is 100% right about sticking to certain catch phrases. I have found if one of the boys is not listening or is engaging in an unapproved of activity, all we have to do is say "No problem" and they immediately correct their behavior now.
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Sushi
"No problem" is an almost magical phrase. Delivery of the phrase is also important. You have to say it with a smile on your face. Then, even the dumbest/oppositional kid in the world can pick up that if the parent says, "No problem", it means no problem for the parent. But, POSSIBLE problem coming up for the kid.
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Sushi
Just thought I'd dredge this one up again.
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Sushi
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washn'wear
I think the Houndog and I are a combination of all 3...however, he defers to drill Sargent when I am not around and doesn't see much gray. It also depends on which kids--which phase--ie. teenagers or 1st graders, the temperment at the time....(did the kid get chewed up and spit out at school that day) or is everything looking good....you know there is no real one way....
I have a list of "what they really mean" "what they thought you meant" phrases that are very enlightening to people or are not intuitive to younger methods of communication.
I will go get the list.
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Shellon
I appreciate this too, rawfish friend, and you know some of my thoughts on raising the little buggers.
My kids will tell you I'm a pretty tough parent and indeed I take very little crap.
However.....
I maintain a sense of humor, keep the communication open and like WW, it depends on so many other variables.
I guess I'm a little of each too, though, at the end of the day.
I think kids are the coolest people in the world and parenting has been my best accomplishment; I love it. It's also the hardest job in the world huh?
I have amazing kids, if I do say so.
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washn'wear
Let me first mention the expressions we say to them .
"How many times do i have o tell you...
"I love you....
"stop that...
a frown
"Give Mommy a kiss...
Where are you going...? -- this one with TONE
"You are so...
"I just don't know what to do with you...
"This room is a pigsty...
"Don't you talk to me like that....
"How do you explain these grades.... (like the kid really wanted to do badly)
"You make me so mad...
"My son/daughter is becoming a real problem....
____________________________________________________
Consider our teens and tweens phrases:
"I didn't have time....
"I love you....
"He hit me first....(more of a child--better worry if its a teen)
"Nothin...
"I forgot...
Silence
"I thought you meant..."
"...But....
I will comment on these soon, but gotta run a kid somewhere right now.
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washn'wear
okay - maybe nobody will read this, but I will still get reminded of the things I want to think about--up front - thanks Sushi!
He (Greg Baer, M.D. breaks these phrase out to:
1. The Lie
2. The Truth
3. Discussion
1st phrase - "how any time do I have to tell you?"
I have tried not to say this, I have ,but not often as I am the only 1 out of 4 that is not Dyslexic an there are 2 out of 4 with Add or ADHD n the house, but what I read made me stop using this phrase.
The truth: "I can't believe you're so stupid-but you must be, because I have to keep telling you the same things over and over. My life is so empty and unhappy that I require everything around me to go smoothly or I get upset and angry. So when you don't listen to me, or when you inconvenience me in any way, I don't want to think about teaching and loving you. I selfishly attack you and try to make you do what I want."
Discussion: "When we feel unloved and empty ourselves, its easy to forget that our role as a parent is to teach and love our children. When we don't have any love to give, we require them to make our lives easier, or at least not to inconvenience us. When they fail to meet that expectation, we attack them. When we say "How many times do I have to tell you..." our children finish that sentence in their heads with the words, "you idiot," or something similar. Its a terrible thing for a child to hear."
I think this is saying its a cop out to blame the kid....like the definition of insanity...if you keep telling a kid something and its not working...why do the same thing and expect different results.
edited for spelling
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Sushi
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washn'wear
I think there is merit to a lot of what you and Dr. Baer said. I think its the idea that a parent only or at least most frequently says this, because they have not figured out how to communicate most especially with tweens and teens. With toddlers, I am personally hoping the parent is watching enough that the "times" of the "how many" have not escalated to extremely unsafe amounts...(increased risk)
These expressions can be extremely helpful for the young child but - I am really thinking about children who are old enough to form some concepts past survival safety and are moving toward understanding rational logic and are cognizant of concepts. This is why I think we cut them off at the knees many times by not trying to communicate with them in terms that demand our standard to parenting but show respect at the same time.
...other expression that fall under the "Stop That" can communicate less than what we want.
"Stop Fighting...
"Be Quiet....(Is it becasue we are just irritable and don't want to work at accommodating all needs in the room)
"can't you hold still... (The parent may expect an 8 year old to sit still for 2 hours - (give me a break) many adults expect chilodren to act like adults
"Do you have to make that much noise with your gum....
(as opposed to please close your mouth when you chew because its noisey and people will not get the best impression)
"Whatever you're doing in the next room - Stop it!... (talk about a condescending lazy reproof) (Stop having fun...talking...breathing)
it is not to say that a parent is not a valid contributor to training for socially acceptable behavior - but at all points we teach, whether we realize it or not and we need to think about what our comments (these off the cuff quips) actually teach.
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Sushi
Since this seems to be a private conversation
, my apologies for not getting back sooner. It's been a bit hectic around here.
This is why I think we cut them off at the knees many times by not trying to communicate with them in terms that demand our standard to parenting but show respect at the same time.
Agreed. Imagine if we talked to our spouses (significant others) the way we sometimes talk to our kids. Say they come home with a traffic ticket. This isn't the first time. You say, "You know, dear, this isn't the first time you've gotten a traffic ticket. How many times do we have to have this conversation? (said with appropriate disdain)".
How many times as a kid did we get lectured? Did it change our behavior? Perhaps, just to avoid the lecture. But is that how we want to teach our kids?
Now, imagine this scenario. Significant other comes home with the traffic ticket. You say (with appropriate, real, empathy), "Wow, dear, that really sucks. What are you going to do about that?"
When I first moved to Michigan, I got popped for not having my seat belt on. In New Jersey it wasn't a reason a police officer could pull you over. A while later, I got popped again (apparently, I'm a slow learner
). Amazingly, the officer didn't lecture me either time. He just handed me the ticket. I am now rather fastidious about putting my seat belt on. :)
What I'm getting at is, the anger, lectures, threats and warnings parents often employ are less than optimal for raising the odds of raising responsible kids. If we can manage to eliminate (a lofty goal, no doubt) these from our vocabulary, we will have a much better time with our kids.
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washn'wear
yeah - interestingly -- hubby got a ticket this week....after 15 years of now ticket-- a camera one at that...when he got home -- we just all laughed.
Another interesting thing is this week, I have had to talk witht he principal of my daughter's school. Abby knows my tenacity---at any rate...there is a Special Ed teacher supposed to be teaching reading) who on more than one occaision I have had to remind that telling my child "Hurry Up" will not make her hurry up. That and many other things were the topics of our phone call. This woman has no children. But, I think of the parents on the recording you linked....
Over and over we say things and yet these things we say don't work....
Maybe parent talk ---Or even Drill sargents, helicopters and sargents applies to adults in more than just parenting circumstances.
By the way -- I think this topic can be intimidating for some and boring for others...consequently only us clinical types will entertain this stuff.
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Sushi
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washn'wear
hmm-- haha rock bottom - true --so true
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