Not only would it repel the invasive attacks of debils, the technically savy "never mix my bread and vegetables" type of limb or region coordinator could now use a cell phone, with full assurance that the radio waves will be reflected, eliminating the unreasonable fear that secretly, the cell phone is cooking their brain tissues..
Johnj -- this might be , but I have a question, (if I may).
While I agree with much of what you said in the previous post -- I'm wondering what your *take* is concerning Messianic Jews, who acknowledge Christ as the Messiah, yet still adhere to the feasts, etc.
Reason I ask, is because I used to go to a Messianic fellowship, and while their *zeal* for Christ was (imo) evident, they still advocated following the feasts, holy days, etc., in essence --still following *the Law*, while professing Christ as the Messiah.
I left that group a couple of years ago, and am still scratching my head, wondering where they were (or weren't) right. While I could agree with their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, I was (and still am) puzzled/ wondering about the rest of their adherence to the Old Testament Law.
If you have time to comment -- I'd appreciate it. :)
Acts 21:20 seems to be the best comment - at least to me.
Johnj -- this might be , but I have a question, (if I may).
While I agree with much of what you said in the previous post -- I'm wondering what your *take* is concerning Messianic Jews, who acknowledge Christ as the Messiah, yet still adhere to the feasts, etc.
Reason I ask, is because I used to go to a Messianic fellowship, and while their *zeal* for Christ was (imo) evident, they still advocated following the feasts, holy days, etc., in essence --still following *the Law*, while professing Christ as the Messiah.
I left that group a couple of years ago, and am still scratching my head, wondering where they were (or weren't) right. While I could agree with their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, I was (and still am) puzzled/ wondering about the rest of their adherence to the Old Testament Law.
If you have time to comment -- I'd appreciate it. :)
The Messianic/ Hebrew Roots movement is very broad and varied. It can be said to include everything from Rood, who in essence seems to have no place for Christ and grace at all, all the way to evangelical, Christ & grace-centered Christians who have a "Christ in the Passover" Seder occasionally. One handy guide is "The Messianic Movement: A Field Guide for Evangelical Christians" published by Jews for Jesus, which attempts to describe philosophical differences and various groups. It is heartening that the group you were associated with had a zeal for Christ.
I think the central question is this: is Sabbath/ Law observance required, neccessary and essential-- or optional? If it's required, then you are no longer under grace. Are those who keep the Law righteous, while those who do not are not considered righteous before God? Is a person who observes the law any more admirable in God's eyes than those who do not?
Paul's biggest argument was Abraham. He knew nothing of the law of Moses. But he had everything that pleased God- namely faith. Faith was credited to him as righteousness even before he was circumcised. So nothing in the law of Moses (Sabath observance, Law obedience, keeping of the feasts, circumcision, kosher laws) contributes to people's righteousness- Christ is totally sufficient.
If the group in any way looks down on those who don't keep Mosaic law, then they've left grace behind. If you sometimes feel you "should" keep parts of the law of Moses, that suggests that the group was in some way leading people to believe that it "should" be obeyed, which is adding law to grace.
John
PS: The end result of legalism is usually nit-picking. Jesus spoke of this int he Pharisees. If you want to see where leglism ends up, take a look at the Haredi Jews in Israel (a step beyond orthodox Jews). There is constant conflict between them and the rest of Israel. One example: they forced airlines to change their flight path in taking off because the path took planes over cemetaries (at several hundred feet), which would render unclean the Jews on the planes and desecrate the graves.
I think most of the people atracted to Rood are Christians who get excited by the elements of Judaism such as the feasts which do have a great deal of meaning and beneficial ceremony. But in time the legalism will choke them. It is startig to already, because Rood insists that you are violating the Sabbath and feasts unless you follow his timetable, which defines the sunset on particular days down to the minute. Are you a minute or two off? You've broken the law. It's a burden "neither we or our fathers have been able to bear" Peter rightly said.
JohnJ, I mean no disrespect to you at all when I say that you don't have any idea what you are talking about at all. I would be remiss to let your statement stand without saying that. I would not want anyone to think that the statements you made are true - they are not.
I am not a memeber of Michael Roods group or any other Messianic group but I do study the bible searching for truth, I listen to various teachers and check out many groups seeking truth. I think people should be very careful expressing opinions about any group or ministry without actually checking out what they really believe and say. I happen to know that Michael Rood very much believes in Jesus Christ and everything that pertains to him, as do all Messianics - Jew & Christian.
I also do not think anyone reading here should take the information received from Jews for Jesus as an example as to how others believe. They very much have their own agenda that does not a lot of times agree with other Jews or Christians or Messianics.
What people need to understand is that the "Bible" is a Jewish book written to Jews by Jews and for Jews. The scriptures Jesus spoke, the apostles spoke and his disciples spoke were the scriptures of old - they didn't have any other writings than those. There is only one scripture - everything in the "New Testament" references the "Old Testament". The "New Testament" is only contradictory in translation and understanding. To have any understanding of the New Testament there must be a knowledge and understanding of the Old Testament and a rooting and grounding in it as well.
If you would like a better understanding read/look/listen to the following books/DVDs/audio's:
Messiah I & II: Understanding His (Jesus) Life and Teaching in Hebraic Context by Avi ben Mordechai
The Signs in the Heavens by Avi ben Mordechai
Galatians: A Torah Based Commentary in First-Century Hebraic Context
Understanding Judaism by Benjamin Blech
The Language of Judaism by Simon Glustrom
Restoring the Two Houses of Israel by Eddie Chumney
Who is the Bride of Christ by Eddie Chumney
There are also many audio/DVD/CD by Stephen Jones that are very informative and good
Again, I mean no disrespect to you at all but I did not think it right to let eveyone think what you were saying was "gospel", true and right because it's not.
"Sodom and Gomorrah... ashen remains discovered.... Raiders of the Lost Book... Pharoah's chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea... Zechariah's Thermonuclear War!... The Jonah Code!"
Rood's titles read like the National Enquirer or any other tabloid magazine. He learned while on the Prophecy Club circuit that sound teaching doesn't sell CDs and win followers and money, spectacular claims do. Hence his outfit (drss like a rabbi), which is an attention getter too. His wild claims have little or no basis in fact. But it doesn't matter, because he has a "new and improved" claim every year. Every entertainer needs a hook.
The Mosiac legalism of some "Hebrew roots" people like Michael Rood is attractive to some people. I think there are a few reasons for this. One is that it's easy to get a handle on and easy for people to feel as though they've done all they need to do. Keep Sabbath strictly, observe three festivals a year and don't buy pork and you can be pretty certain that you've done all that God requires of you. It's much simpler and easier to satisfy than something so general (and much more demanding) than "love your neighbor as yourself." It commonly leads to the same kind of smug self-righteoussness that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees. Also, human beings like the idea of earning their keep (which is self pride). It's tougher to admit that we're dead in our tresspasses and sins and desparately need the grace of God in the redemption of the cross to rescue us.
Law-observers it seems at first enjoy obervances like the feasts. But in the long run legalism is so constricting and ends up splitting hairs. What can you do on the Sabbath and what can't you do? Eventually rabbis have to rule on these things. Orthodox Jews have done so for years and ended up so convoluted. For example, the rabbis have ruled that if you have a hook and eye on your clothing, and the eye falls off-- then you can't wear that garment on the Sabbath becuase it would be work to carry around the useless hook without its matching eye. Rabbis in Israel recently ruled that flying over cemetaries at a few hundred feet at takeoff renders people unclean. They threatened a boycott of airlines until flight paths were changed to avoid flying over cemetaries. (Apparently there's a legalistic height limit on this, because you're sure to cross over plenty of cemetaries at 35,000 feet on a cross country flight) It's only a matter of time until the legalism ties you up and shoves you in a box.
"If my continuing calculations are correct, we are less than three and a half years away from Zechariah's thermonuclear war and the beginning of the last 'Shevua' [Linda's note: loosley "seven days" or "a week" in Hebrew, if I understand correctly].[
While my first thought of this is- ridiculous, my second is: The timing would be about about right.
With Iran beginning uranium refining, and their presidents' reportedly apocalyptic vision of his destiny, some have estimated that they will have the bomb in 2 to 5 years. No one is seriously trying to stop them either.
It is also expected that they will use it against Israel when they have it, and possibly against the USA if they can. Of course Israel would reply, as might we. If this did occur in the Middle East and started between what was Persia and Israel. A lot of people who would read:
Zechariah 12:6
In that day will I make the chiefs of Judah like a pan of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire among sheaves; and they shall devour all the peoples round about, on the right hand and on the left; and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
or other verses like it and think that prophecy had come to pass.
I hope I'm wrong, but for now this looks like more self evident prophecy to me. Because if nothing changes it will happen sooner or later.
I think this is the key disclaimer, if his "prophecy" does not come true. He can always go back to the drawing board, and come up with a whole other set of calculations..
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Ham
Not only would it repel the invasive attacks of debils, the technically savy "never mix my bread and vegetables" type of limb or region coordinator could now use a cell phone, with full assurance that the radio waves will be reflected, eliminating the unreasonable fear that secretly, the cell phone is cooking their brain tissues..
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What The Hey
Acts 21:20 seems to be the best comment - at least to me.
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johnj
The Messianic/ Hebrew Roots movement is very broad and varied. It can be said to include everything from Rood, who in essence seems to have no place for Christ and grace at all, all the way to evangelical, Christ & grace-centered Christians who have a "Christ in the Passover" Seder occasionally. One handy guide is "The Messianic Movement: A Field Guide for Evangelical Christians" published by Jews for Jesus, which attempts to describe philosophical differences and various groups. It is heartening that the group you were associated with had a zeal for Christ.
I think the central question is this: is Sabbath/ Law observance required, neccessary and essential-- or optional? If it's required, then you are no longer under grace. Are those who keep the Law righteous, while those who do not are not considered righteous before God? Is a person who observes the law any more admirable in God's eyes than those who do not?
Paul's biggest argument was Abraham. He knew nothing of the law of Moses. But he had everything that pleased God- namely faith. Faith was credited to him as righteousness even before he was circumcised. So nothing in the law of Moses (Sabath observance, Law obedience, keeping of the feasts, circumcision, kosher laws) contributes to people's righteousness- Christ is totally sufficient.
If the group in any way looks down on those who don't keep Mosaic law, then they've left grace behind. If you sometimes feel you "should" keep parts of the law of Moses, that suggests that the group was in some way leading people to believe that it "should" be obeyed, which is adding law to grace.
John
PS: The end result of legalism is usually nit-picking. Jesus spoke of this int he Pharisees. If you want to see where leglism ends up, take a look at the Haredi Jews in Israel (a step beyond orthodox Jews). There is constant conflict between them and the rest of Israel. One example: they forced airlines to change their flight path in taking off because the path took planes over cemetaries (at several hundred feet), which would render unclean the Jews on the planes and desecrate the graves.
I think most of the people atracted to Rood are Christians who get excited by the elements of Judaism such as the feasts which do have a great deal of meaning and beneficial ceremony. But in time the legalism will choke them. It is startig to already, because Rood insists that you are violating the Sabbath and feasts unless you follow his timetable, which defines the sunset on particular days down to the minute. Are you a minute or two off? You've broken the law. It's a burden "neither we or our fathers have been able to bear" Peter rightly said.
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Edi
JohnJ, I mean no disrespect to you at all when I say that you don't have any idea what you are talking about at all. I would be remiss to let your statement stand without saying that. I would not want anyone to think that the statements you made are true - they are not.
I am not a memeber of Michael Roods group or any other Messianic group but I do study the bible searching for truth, I listen to various teachers and check out many groups seeking truth. I think people should be very careful expressing opinions about any group or ministry without actually checking out what they really believe and say. I happen to know that Michael Rood very much believes in Jesus Christ and everything that pertains to him, as do all Messianics - Jew & Christian.
I also do not think anyone reading here should take the information received from Jews for Jesus as an example as to how others believe. They very much have their own agenda that does not a lot of times agree with other Jews or Christians or Messianics.
What people need to understand is that the "Bible" is a Jewish book written to Jews by Jews and for Jews. The scriptures Jesus spoke, the apostles spoke and his disciples spoke were the scriptures of old - they didn't have any other writings than those. There is only one scripture - everything in the "New Testament" references the "Old Testament". The "New Testament" is only contradictory in translation and understanding. To have any understanding of the New Testament there must be a knowledge and understanding of the Old Testament and a rooting and grounding in it as well.
If you would like a better understanding read/look/listen to the following books/DVDs/audio's:
Messiah I & II: Understanding His (Jesus) Life and Teaching in Hebraic Context by Avi ben Mordechai
The Signs in the Heavens by Avi ben Mordechai
Galatians: A Torah Based Commentary in First-Century Hebraic Context
Understanding Judaism by Benjamin Blech
The Language of Judaism by Simon Glustrom
Restoring the Two Houses of Israel by Eddie Chumney
Who is the Bride of Christ by Eddie Chumney
There are also many audio/DVD/CD by Stephen Jones that are very informative and good
Again, I mean no disrespect to you at all but I did not think it right to let eveyone think what you were saying was "gospel", true and right because it's not.
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johnj
"Sodom and Gomorrah... ashen remains discovered.... Raiders of the Lost Book... Pharoah's chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea... Zechariah's Thermonuclear War!... The Jonah Code!"
Rood's titles read like the National Enquirer or any other tabloid magazine. He learned while on the Prophecy Club circuit that sound teaching doesn't sell CDs and win followers and money, spectacular claims do. Hence his outfit (drss like a rabbi), which is an attention getter too. His wild claims have little or no basis in fact. But it doesn't matter, because he has a "new and improved" claim every year. Every entertainer needs a hook.
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dmiller
I love this site.
One learns more here by accident, than elsewhere by design!! :)
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johnj
The Mosiac legalism of some "Hebrew roots" people like Michael Rood is attractive to some people. I think there are a few reasons for this. One is that it's easy to get a handle on and easy for people to feel as though they've done all they need to do. Keep Sabbath strictly, observe three festivals a year and don't buy pork and you can be pretty certain that you've done all that God requires of you. It's much simpler and easier to satisfy than something so general (and much more demanding) than "love your neighbor as yourself." It commonly leads to the same kind of smug self-righteoussness that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees. Also, human beings like the idea of earning their keep (which is self pride). It's tougher to admit that we're dead in our tresspasses and sins and desparately need the grace of God in the redemption of the cross to rescue us.
Law-observers it seems at first enjoy obervances like the feasts. But in the long run legalism is so constricting and ends up splitting hairs. What can you do on the Sabbath and what can't you do? Eventually rabbis have to rule on these things. Orthodox Jews have done so for years and ended up so convoluted. For example, the rabbis have ruled that if you have a hook and eye on your clothing, and the eye falls off-- then you can't wear that garment on the Sabbath becuase it would be work to carry around the useless hook without its matching eye. Rabbis in Israel recently ruled that flying over cemetaries at a few hundred feet at takeoff renders people unclean. They threatened a boycott of airlines until flight paths were changed to avoid flying over cemetaries. (Apparently there's a legalistic height limit on this, because you're sure to cross over plenty of cemetaries at 35,000 feet on a cross country flight) It's only a matter of time until the legalism ties you up and shoves you in a box.
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ckeer
While my first thought of this is- ridiculous, my second is: The timing would be about about right.
With Iran beginning uranium refining, and their presidents' reportedly apocalyptic vision of his destiny, some have estimated that they will have the bomb in 2 to 5 years. No one is seriously trying to stop them either.
It is also expected that they will use it against Israel when they have it, and possibly against the USA if they can. Of course Israel would reply, as might we. If this did occur in the Middle East and started between what was Persia and Israel. A lot of people who would read:
Zechariah 12:6
In that day will I make the chiefs of Judah like a pan of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire among sheaves; and they shall devour all the peoples round about, on the right hand and on the left; and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
or other verses like it and think that prophecy had come to pass.
I hope I'm wrong, but for now this looks like more self evident prophecy to me. Because if nothing changes it will happen sooner or later.
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Ham
I think this is the key disclaimer, if his "prophecy" does not come true. He can always go back to the drawing board, and come up with a whole other set of calculations..
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