There's a verse in Isaiah - I don't have my bible with me, where he prophecies and goes back in time and talks about the total ruin of the earth, before Gen 1:2 (used a a warning to Israel to get thier act together), where he talks about the ruin and waste and says there was NO ADAM - no man, or mankind as we know it now.
Hi Bolshevik. Glad you had me look it up. Its actually Jeremiah 4:23-26. The phrase in vs. 25, "there were no people" is in Hebrew - "there was no man." There was no "Adam." Gen 2:5 is the only other place this phrase is used. But in Gen. 2:5, it is not describing this scene. The phrases "I looked" by the prophet is visionary - God showed him.
There has never been a time from Adam's day, until the present, where the earth has been in such a state - not even at the time of Noah's flood. The only time the earth could have been in such a condition was before Adam's creation. This was the condition the earth was in when the Spirit began the six day's work of restoring it to a habitable state.
I do tend to believe there were either angelic cities or a previous group of beings God has chosen not to share with us. Although, I always wonder what group God is always referring to when he speaks of resurrections, and there's always that group from "under the sea." That's odd. I don't think he's making a special category out of people who have died in shipwrecks.
If there was a previous civilization Satan stewarded - and yet caused violence to - I think from the first flood (the one before Noah's), any evidence is hidden "under the sea."
Does anyone know if the Gap Theorists have a model like the YECs do? The YECs believe that Noah's flood and the continent split in Peleg's day can explain a lot of things, and they are working on trying to see if their model can explain the details too. They even have explanations as how the flood would cause the Ice Age evidence. I guess the Gap Theorists would have another flood to work with?
I guess there are two other gap theories. One is called soft gap theory and is between Genesis 1:2 and 1:3. The other is proposed to be between 1:5 and 1:6.
The way I understand it, in the gap theory, the major Flood that caused all the damage, no light in the heavens, etc. is the one that happened between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. The earth standing in and out of the water is that major flood. Judgment, and destruction of Satan's abominations - whatever it was he did.
You can't say this flood - the earth becoming waste and standing in and out of the waters in Gen. 1:2 is the same as Noah's. In Noah's flood, the earth did not become waste - it was flooded, but when the waters receded, there was still the familiar plant life, sun, moon, stars, mountains, etc. He knew where he was. The earth was the same. It was not "waste," "ruin," "barren." It was still the same, it was fruitful.
YEC's always attribute Noah's flood to the disasters of the first one. It doesn't fit.
Mountains literally rolling and tumbling, tectonic plate splits with massive earthquakes, destruction by meteors, total absolute darkness, no light - total waste, ruin, destruction, barreness - I don't think even the ark would have survived that.
Also, when I look at the moon and its crators, exploded planets - I think the effect was also heavenly - not just earth. Earth was not the only planet affected.
19 ¶ My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 ¶ I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 ¶ For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
"I beheld" certainly sounds visionary. This record sounds like war, not a flood, and of a future event, not the past?
Also, when I look at the moon and its crators, exploded planets - I think the effect was also heavenly - not just earth. Earth was not the only planet affected.
I'm not sure where the waters came from in either scenario. If they came from beyond the universe, perhaps in the form of ice (comets) I'm sure they could do a lot of damage. Perhaps the supposed planet that exploded between Mars and Jupiter was to take the impact of the comets and slow them down, for a less devestating impact on earth. The resulting asteroids would of course cause damage to other heavenly bodies then and now. A larger comet may have impacted earth, destablizing the plates. Maybe the smaller comets, upon entering earths atomosphere, melted and caused the rains of Noah's flood. Craters on the moon and other planets could be easily explained with this.
Just my thoughts. I don't know what the YECs or other creationist think. I would think comets would work for either school of thought.
Hi Bolsevik. We see many times the prophets will be talking about one thing, segue into prophecy, then back to the topic. For example, when Isaih prophecies about the King of Tyre, segues into Lucifer, then comes back to the King of Tyre.
Its as if they're talking about something, get caught up by the spirit and then come back down to the topic at hand. I think this fits for the Jeremiah passage.
If in Noah's flood there was no light, the earth would have froze and there would have been an ice age.
I take exception to the YEC because it flies in the face of science - palentology, geology, botany, fossils, etc., and makes Christians look like idiots.
Although, I can see God reforming in the earth 6 days. We are told in Revelations there will be a new heaven and earth. I think we will have the joy of watching God create it, as the angels did when they clapped for joy when God created the earth. All of creation in the universe will know who the Creator is.
I think though, that when he creates, when he manifests his thought, it is done quickly. thus, the two "life explosions" in the geological record. The first one (which I believe is the pre Gen. 1:2 times, and the Cambrian, which I believe is the Gen. 1:2 time - our time.
I just don't see evidence of any flood in the Jeremiah record. So I just thought it was a future event. The devil's story I'd like to look into more.
I understand then that according to Gap Theorists, God remade a lot of animals. If He remade the coelacanth, He could have remade dinosaurs too. Thus even under Gap Theory, dinosaurs could have been on Noah's Ark?
Bolshevik, I really think that if there were dinos roaming during Adam and Noah's days, we would have seen pics people carved, read about it, etc. It would have been a hot topic. Many ancient temples and buildings and artifacts have survived Noah's flood to today. People wrote and drew what they saw. T-Rex, raptor, et al. were not there.
I think dinos during Noah's day is absurd. YEC's have to fit them somewhere. If they are put in the gap, it harmonizes perfectly - God and Science. Put them during Adam's day through Noah, it creates disharmony. Its a stretch.
YECs do too many contortions to get their theories to fit.
Bolshevik, I really think that if there were dinos roaming during Adam and Noah's days, we would have seen pics people carved, read about it, etc. It would have been a hot topic. Many ancient temples and buildings and artifacts have survived Noah's flood to today. People wrote and drew what they saw. T-Rex, raptor, et al. were not there.
I think dinos during Noah's day is absurd. YEC's have to fit them somewhere. If they are put in the gap, it harmonizes perfectly - God and Science. Put them during Adam's day through Noah, it creates disharmony. Its a stretch.
YECs do too many contortions to get their theories to fit.
If there's a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, then there's a gap. It's just not something that stands out to me and is underscored as the six-day creation event is.
The theistic evolutionists try to harmonize the bible and evolution too. I don't think 4.5 billion years is long enough to account for evolution. (hence the big push for punctuated equilibrium.)
the YECs do point to artifacts around the world with pictures of dinosaurs. Cave paintings, Greek/Egyptian pottery, the Ishtar gate etc. They also point the the common legend of dragons throughout all cultures, their described anatomy etc. ("dinosaur" is a modern term) Whether this stuff is authentic or not I cannot know. There's also the ropen and mokele-mbembe stuff. Although if a modern dinosaur showed up it would prove nothing.
Gap theory posses a problem for me because if the earth was without form and void, how did the fossil record survive? Why are there living fossils from the time of dinosaurs? If the devil had previously ruled the world how does he survive the cataclysm? Why wasn't he destroyed then? If mammoths lived during the Ice Age, then there was light at the time of the Ice Age?
"Gap theory posses a problem for me because if the earth was without form and void, how did the fossil record survive? Why are there living fossils from the time of dinosaurs? If the devil had previously ruled the world how does he survive the cataclysm? Why wasn't he destroyed then? If mammoths lived during the Ice Age, then there was light at the time of the Ice Age?"
I think when the earth became without form and void, life was buried. Fossils are under the ground, in geographic layered strata, or caves, etc. There are places, if you look at the fossil records, with many different species buried together, or running up mountains to get away - from something. They are frozen in time, like when they excavated the city of Pompei - it was quick, they were buried and preserved. The earth didn't disintegrate. It became waste - desolate, lifeless - void - empty of life.
Well, there are no T-Rex or giants running around, but there are certainly smaller ones, lizards, Komodo dragons, crocs, whales, behemoths, etc. I think God created them, he loves behemoth.
There was light during the ice age, why wouldn't there be? There are plenty of species since Adam's time that have died out. Mammoths being one of them, buffalo almost went extinct, eagles, etc. Man likes to kill them. I read recently, something like 80% of all species that were originally created are gone.
Why would the devil be killed? He ruled the Universe. He was the greatest - the created cherubum, the high priest, the mediator between God's living creation and angels, and God. He does not have blood. He is spirit like the rest of the angelic host and creation. God took his universal throne away, Christ fills his position and more today, but he is still the prince of the air - that was never taken from him, and the earth is again his, because Adam gave his authority over it to him, that's why he was able to offer it to Christ ("It is given me.") if Christ would but worship him.
Why didn't God destroy Satan? Probably because he did not want to repeat an endless cycle for eternity. Yes, he could have destroyed him and created another to take his place, but he didn't, for two reasons I believe. First, God does not destroy life he has made. He has set eternity in our hearts, and done the same with angelic life.
Two, God needed to show, to his creation, who only is the true God, who only can create and whose only will is perfect. He could destroy Satan, and make another to take his place, but then, who's to say, that other wouldn't do the same thing? Why repeat a cycle eternally? So, he let Satan be Satan and continue.
When judgment was passed upon the earth in Gen 1:2, could Satan reform it? Could Satan let it be light? Could Satan make the waters recede? Could satan create living creatures - sea and land, could Satan create trees, land, plants, could Satan restore the heavens, write the Word in the Stars, reform the earth and get it ready for man? Could Satan create man? Could Satan create?
No.
The whole universe and angelic host saw - Satan was not God, he could not create, he had no power, he became a spectacle, he was publically humilated.
Someday we will know God too.
At the end, all of creation will willingly and freely, give praise to God - those who have chosen to be with him. There will never again be any doubt. There will once again be a perfect one will, one harmony.
When Satan rebelled, you now had two wills operating in the universe - conflict.
When man rebelled, each man having his very own free will, you now have approximately 6 billion wills - chaos.
There's too much to squeeze into Noah's time frame: dinosaurs, earthquakes, tectonic plate splits, two life "explosions," the explosion of the planet that's now the asteriod belt, the pelting of the moon with meteors, the pelting of the earth with meteors, volcanic eruptions, etc.
YEC base their theory one one man, who in the 1600s sat down and did a geneology.
Why could there not be a cosmos, a social order, before mankind/Adam came along? Why do we think we are the first? I believe there was life, a "social order" before Gen 1:2. We may not know much about it, but why not?
Note the phrase "from before the foundation of the world" or "since the foundation of the world" - this is God's dividing line, this is huge to him. I believe the Foundation of the world is what was before in Gen 1:1 and before. Of which Peter speaks, saying men are willingly ignorant of that time.
Thought I would toss this into the mix for anyone who is interested
Kabbalah teaches that God is light (as does the Bible). In the beginning God who is light filled the entirety of existence because He is infinite. Our would, however, is finite. In order for the finite to exist, the infinite had to "contract" and create a "void" or empty space. He then drew a line of light down into this finite space we call our world.
(This isn't to be understood as literal, necessarily, but is a means of communicating an idea.)
The role of human beings is to now refill that void with God's light, by performing Mitzvoh (obeying a commandment of God, which is viewed as doing a good work). In other words, even if one does not obey all of the laws perfectly, one is still drawing down some light whenever he/she performs even a single act that is commanded by God.
the form and void period I understand was when the earth was frozen.....there was no light or heat...therefore all fossils were is the frozen state till light shun again on the earth.
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Bolshevik
It that Grand Canyon point on the Link?
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Bolshevik
Do you know which verses these are?
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Sunesis
Hi Bolshevik. Glad you had me look it up. Its actually Jeremiah 4:23-26. The phrase in vs. 25, "there were no people" is in Hebrew - "there was no man." There was no "Adam." Gen 2:5 is the only other place this phrase is used. But in Gen. 2:5, it is not describing this scene. The phrases "I looked" by the prophet is visionary - God showed him.
There has never been a time from Adam's day, until the present, where the earth has been in such a state - not even at the time of Noah's flood. The only time the earth could have been in such a condition was before Adam's creation. This was the condition the earth was in when the Spirit began the six day's work of restoring it to a habitable state.
I do tend to believe there were either angelic cities or a previous group of beings God has chosen not to share with us. Although, I always wonder what group God is always referring to when he speaks of resurrections, and there's always that group from "under the sea." That's odd. I don't think he's making a special category out of people who have died in shipwrecks.
If there was a previous civilization Satan stewarded - and yet caused violence to - I think from the first flood (the one before Noah's), any evidence is hidden "under the sea."
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cman
under the seas
below the water
swimming around in the word
others breath air and not water
pneuma is moving above the waters
no one is left out
things under the earth
above the earth
all are saved all will be raised
all before us have
we have yet to see it fully
but all will see the angels within
and the cloud of witnesses
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griffp
Check out David F. Reagan article a very simple and pretty well written.
Gap or No Gap
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Bolshevik
Thanks Sunesis and griffp. This is interesting.
Does anyone know if the Gap Theorists have a model like the YECs do? The YECs believe that Noah's flood and the continent split in Peleg's day can explain a lot of things, and they are working on trying to see if their model can explain the details too. They even have explanations as how the flood would cause the Ice Age evidence. I guess the Gap Theorists would have another flood to work with?
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Bolshevik
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v26/i3/softgap.asp
I guess there are two other gap theories. One is called soft gap theory and is between Genesis 1:2 and 1:3. The other is proposed to be between 1:5 and 1:6.
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Sunesis
The way I understand it, in the gap theory, the major Flood that caused all the damage, no light in the heavens, etc. is the one that happened between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. The earth standing in and out of the water is that major flood. Judgment, and destruction of Satan's abominations - whatever it was he did.
You can't say this flood - the earth becoming waste and standing in and out of the waters in Gen. 1:2 is the same as Noah's. In Noah's flood, the earth did not become waste - it was flooded, but when the waters receded, there was still the familiar plant life, sun, moon, stars, mountains, etc. He knew where he was. The earth was the same. It was not "waste," "ruin," "barren." It was still the same, it was fruitful.
YEC's always attribute Noah's flood to the disasters of the first one. It doesn't fit.
Mountains literally rolling and tumbling, tectonic plate splits with massive earthquakes, destruction by meteors, total absolute darkness, no light - total waste, ruin, destruction, barreness - I don't think even the ark would have survived that.
Also, when I look at the moon and its crators, exploded planets - I think the effect was also heavenly - not just earth. Earth was not the only planet affected.
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Bolshevik
Jeremiah Chapter 4
"I beheld" certainly sounds visionary. This record sounds like war, not a flood, and of a future event, not the past?
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Bolshevik
I'm not sure where the waters came from in either scenario. If they came from beyond the universe, perhaps in the form of ice (comets) I'm sure they could do a lot of damage. Perhaps the supposed planet that exploded between Mars and Jupiter was to take the impact of the comets and slow them down, for a less devestating impact on earth. The resulting asteroids would of course cause damage to other heavenly bodies then and now. A larger comet may have impacted earth, destablizing the plates. Maybe the smaller comets, upon entering earths atomosphere, melted and caused the rains of Noah's flood. Craters on the moon and other planets could be easily explained with this.
Just my thoughts. I don't know what the YECs or other creationist think. I would think comets would work for either school of thought.
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Sunesis
Hi Bolsevik. We see many times the prophets will be talking about one thing, segue into prophecy, then back to the topic. For example, when Isaih prophecies about the King of Tyre, segues into Lucifer, then comes back to the King of Tyre.
Its as if they're talking about something, get caught up by the spirit and then come back down to the topic at hand. I think this fits for the Jeremiah passage.
If in Noah's flood there was no light, the earth would have froze and there would have been an ice age.
I take exception to the YEC because it flies in the face of science - palentology, geology, botany, fossils, etc., and makes Christians look like idiots.
Although, I can see God reforming in the earth 6 days. We are told in Revelations there will be a new heaven and earth. I think we will have the joy of watching God create it, as the angels did when they clapped for joy when God created the earth. All of creation in the universe will know who the Creator is.
I think though, that when he creates, when he manifests his thought, it is done quickly. thus, the two "life explosions" in the geological record. The first one (which I believe is the pre Gen. 1:2 times, and the Cambrian, which I believe is the Gen. 1:2 time - our time.
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Bolshevik
I just don't see evidence of any flood in the Jeremiah record. So I just thought it was a future event. The devil's story I'd like to look into more.
I understand then that according to Gap Theorists, God remade a lot of animals. If He remade the coelacanth, He could have remade dinosaurs too. Thus even under Gap Theory, dinosaurs could have been on Noah's Ark?
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Sunesis
Bolshevik, I really think that if there were dinos roaming during Adam and Noah's days, we would have seen pics people carved, read about it, etc. It would have been a hot topic. Many ancient temples and buildings and artifacts have survived Noah's flood to today. People wrote and drew what they saw. T-Rex, raptor, et al. were not there.
I think dinos during Noah's day is absurd. YEC's have to fit them somewhere. If they are put in the gap, it harmonizes perfectly - God and Science. Put them during Adam's day through Noah, it creates disharmony. Its a stretch.
YECs do too many contortions to get their theories to fit.
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Bolshevik
If there's a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, then there's a gap. It's just not something that stands out to me and is underscored as the six-day creation event is.
The theistic evolutionists try to harmonize the bible and evolution too. I don't think 4.5 billion years is long enough to account for evolution. (hence the big push for punctuated equilibrium.)
the YECs do point to artifacts around the world with pictures of dinosaurs. Cave paintings, Greek/Egyptian pottery, the Ishtar gate etc. They also point the the common legend of dragons throughout all cultures, their described anatomy etc. ("dinosaur" is a modern term) Whether this stuff is authentic or not I cannot know. There's also the ropen and mokele-mbembe stuff. Although if a modern dinosaur showed up it would prove nothing.
Gap theory posses a problem for me because if the earth was without form and void, how did the fossil record survive? Why are there living fossils from the time of dinosaurs? If the devil had previously ruled the world how does he survive the cataclysm? Why wasn't he destroyed then? If mammoths lived during the Ice Age, then there was light at the time of the Ice Age?
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Sunesis
Good questions Bolshevik.
"Gap theory posses a problem for me because if the earth was without form and void, how did the fossil record survive? Why are there living fossils from the time of dinosaurs? If the devil had previously ruled the world how does he survive the cataclysm? Why wasn't he destroyed then? If mammoths lived during the Ice Age, then there was light at the time of the Ice Age?"
I think when the earth became without form and void, life was buried. Fossils are under the ground, in geographic layered strata, or caves, etc. There are places, if you look at the fossil records, with many different species buried together, or running up mountains to get away - from something. They are frozen in time, like when they excavated the city of Pompei - it was quick, they were buried and preserved. The earth didn't disintegrate. It became waste - desolate, lifeless - void - empty of life.
Well, there are no T-Rex or giants running around, but there are certainly smaller ones, lizards, Komodo dragons, crocs, whales, behemoths, etc. I think God created them, he loves behemoth.
There was light during the ice age, why wouldn't there be? There are plenty of species since Adam's time that have died out. Mammoths being one of them, buffalo almost went extinct, eagles, etc. Man likes to kill them. I read recently, something like 80% of all species that were originally created are gone.
Why would the devil be killed? He ruled the Universe. He was the greatest - the created cherubum, the high priest, the mediator between God's living creation and angels, and God. He does not have blood. He is spirit like the rest of the angelic host and creation. God took his universal throne away, Christ fills his position and more today, but he is still the prince of the air - that was never taken from him, and the earth is again his, because Adam gave his authority over it to him, that's why he was able to offer it to Christ ("It is given me.") if Christ would but worship him.
Why didn't God destroy Satan? Probably because he did not want to repeat an endless cycle for eternity. Yes, he could have destroyed him and created another to take his place, but he didn't, for two reasons I believe. First, God does not destroy life he has made. He has set eternity in our hearts, and done the same with angelic life.
Two, God needed to show, to his creation, who only is the true God, who only can create and whose only will is perfect. He could destroy Satan, and make another to take his place, but then, who's to say, that other wouldn't do the same thing? Why repeat a cycle eternally? So, he let Satan be Satan and continue.
When judgment was passed upon the earth in Gen 1:2, could Satan reform it? Could Satan let it be light? Could Satan make the waters recede? Could satan create living creatures - sea and land, could Satan create trees, land, plants, could Satan restore the heavens, write the Word in the Stars, reform the earth and get it ready for man? Could Satan create man? Could Satan create?
No.
The whole universe and angelic host saw - Satan was not God, he could not create, he had no power, he became a spectacle, he was publically humilated.
Someday we will know God too.
At the end, all of creation will willingly and freely, give praise to God - those who have chosen to be with him. There will never again be any doubt. There will once again be a perfect one will, one harmony.
When Satan rebelled, you now had two wills operating in the universe - conflict.
When man rebelled, each man having his very own free will, you now have approximately 6 billion wills - chaos.
There's too much to squeeze into Noah's time frame: dinosaurs, earthquakes, tectonic plate splits, two life "explosions," the explosion of the planet that's now the asteriod belt, the pelting of the moon with meteors, the pelting of the earth with meteors, volcanic eruptions, etc.
YEC base their theory one one man, who in the 1600s sat down and did a geneology.
Why could there not be a cosmos, a social order, before mankind/Adam came along? Why do we think we are the first? I believe there was life, a "social order" before Gen 1:2. We may not know much about it, but why not?
Note the phrase "from before the foundation of the world" or "since the foundation of the world" - this is God's dividing line, this is huge to him. I believe the Foundation of the world is what was before in Gen 1:1 and before. Of which Peter speaks, saying men are willingly ignorant of that time.
Its interesting.
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Abigail
Thought I would toss this into the mix for anyone who is interested
Kabbalah teaches that God is light (as does the Bible). In the beginning God who is light filled the entirety of existence because He is infinite. Our would, however, is finite. In order for the finite to exist, the infinite had to "contract" and create a "void" or empty space. He then drew a line of light down into this finite space we call our world.
(This isn't to be understood as literal, necessarily, but is a means of communicating an idea.)
The role of human beings is to now refill that void with God's light, by performing Mitzvoh (obeying a commandment of God, which is viewed as doing a good work). In other words, even if one does not obey all of the laws perfectly, one is still drawing down some light whenever he/she performs even a single act that is commanded by God.
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Sunesis
That's very profound Abigail! Thanks.
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gladtobeout
I haven't read all the previous posts, but if there was a gap and many things died, then that would put death before sin.
There is quite a bit of info. on this topic at Answersingenesis.org
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likeaneagle
the form and void period I understand was when the earth was frozen.....there was no light or heat...therefore all fossils were is the frozen state till light shun again on the earth.
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