Here is a very straight forward use of coming as a thief-
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
There are more, plenty more, especially in the gospels.
There will be many and for many a 'day of the Lord'.
That's pretty good, Cman, but you left of something really important...
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Verse 3 kinda blows the the theory that you don't know when Jesus is coming back out of the water. It comes a thief to those who are not watching. And if you have not been taught (or kick against something you don't agree with) then you are in darkness. The Bible does reveal how to know when Jesus is coming back this next time, but so many people believe the Law (Old Testament) is not important, so they do not read it, nor do they believe that the God of the OT is even the same God as in the NT.
There are signs in Daniel, it tells you what to look for, and is also touched on in 2Thess. When you see it, start counting the days. There is a window of time for the people of God to get to safety...
like our poet Sir Guess Alot talk about for some one to open their heart up about this matter at hand
first let me begin with the bible has not all the answers one may seek
if we truly want to keep things simple one needs to set their bible on their bed and go into another room where they can get peaceful
Then we can begin to talk with our God, so begin by talking at the opem space (if needed turn the lights off) while talking tell God and the gift of holy spirit within your inner self you need help understanding all the many voices like (year2027, Cman, RachelYsrael, Sirguessalot, Sunnyfla, and the many others who have shared their two cents) alone with what you have been taught about the subject at hand (where are the dead in Christ)
For God and Christ know where you are coming from
like the verse Ephesians 3:16 reads "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;" your conscience is what bears witness to anything you need to know
I believe God works in our conscience to teach us that which will help us move into the next stage of understanding
there is nothing to fear at all when we reach for spiritual insight and if we do not reach it our first try, try, try again and again until that small loving voice fills our heart
its like the visions i see from time to time that help me understand more clearly
I would see a circle that was white like a light from no where -- which would get me to think about Adam (the cell of the body)
with the circle, its middle would turn black then the outer layers would turn inside out making the darkness go away while making the circle biger and brighter
until a new thing would happen
the white would change shape to make it look like a great white bird
and as I would watch the bird would fly away
then I would think of the chick breaking out of the egg to the the butterfly comeing out of the worm to fly away
I believe things are not as hard as the Way cult tried to make them where we need a list of keys to understand God's word
because we have some one to teach us the seed of Christ our holy spiritual seed within us
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
no need for heavly keys you have the holy ghost
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
we have no need for men to teach us because we have holy spirit to teach us
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
who guides us Christ the Lord
we just point each other to Christ's holy spirit
so the man needed to be guided by Philip enough to receive the gift then being guided on the power of the gift
Christ to teach him because Philip can not sit there forever
I agree with what you said, and of course what the word says about the Holy Spirit teaching us. God has taught and shown me many things since I left the ministry 15 years ago. Although, there are many topics here recently that are popping up in my studies. That's why I come here to see where everyone is at in what they believe now. I am not a biblical scholar as twi taught us to believe, but I do know that God will teach and show us what we need to know just at the right time in our lives. He knows our hearts and He prepares us for understanding. It has taken Him 15 years so far to get me to this point and He has A LOT of work to do in me still..LOL.. A life time of learning is still yet to come :)
You have a wonderful heart Roy. Thank you for all you do here at GSC.
I thought I would weigh in here with what I've been thinking about and learning about this subject lately. First, I'm very suspect of any "doctrine" taught by TWI, whether about the nature of God, or heaven, hell, death etc. We were so indoctrinated to believe what was taught in PFAL and the explanations given to explain away contrary views.
Lazarus in Abraham's bosom: Luke 16:19-31
The great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12
The mount of transfiguration - Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-4
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
the spirits of just men made perfect in Revelation
There are others but I don't have a lot of time right now. So the Bible does indicate that the dead are alive, in spite of what we learned in PFAL, but there are also verses that indicate what's called "soul-sleep" until the Resurrection.
So, I've been thinking, what if both are true? We live in a limited arena of space and time, limited to three space dimensions and one time dimension. But the realm of heaven is outside of time and space, so what if those who leave this earthly realm through death, go immediately to the heavenly realm which is outside of our limited view of linear time. To us and our limited view they may be "asleep", but to them, they are immediately transported to the "eternal life", which is outside of our limited view of space and time.
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I recently came across this which may explain it better than I:
"If we assume that God is outside of the space/time continuum then why must we continue to think of the life after death is in a linear progress? Could it not be that when one dies one is also outside of this linear path and thus, regardless of one’s point in history, all arrive at the same moment? Christ’s return then is not “delayed” but is always in the future and always at this moment."
I thought I would weigh in here with what I've been thinking about and learning about this subject lately. First, I'm very suspect of any "doctrine" taught by TWI, whether about the nature of God, or heaven, hell, death etc. We were so indoctrinated to believe what was taught in PFAL and the explanations given to explain away contrary views.
I have to agree whole-heartedly. Unlearning, and learning past what was in PFAL has moved me in quantum leaps away from TWI doctrine.
Lazarus in Abraham's bosom: Luke 16:19-31
The great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12
The mount of transfiguration - Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-4
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
the spirits of just men made perfect in Revelation
Again, I have always felt that the "Are the Dead Alive Now" book failed to explain the Mount of Transfiguration experience. It was simply dismissed as a vision.
But even in a vision for Jesus to communicate with the dead (or perceived dead) would be a violation of God's direct will. (e.g. Saul and "Samuel")
There are others but I don't have a lot of time right now. So the Bible does indicate that the dead are alive, in spite of what we learned in PFAL, but there are also verses that indicate what's called "soul-sleep" until the Resurrection.
Again, I agree that New Testament statements support a one time judgement/bema event, but also indicate every believer who dies experiences that same event right after they die, but the space between their passing appears to be "sleep" to those left behind.
So, I've been thinking, what if both are true? We live in a limited arena of space and time, limited to three space dimensions and one time dimension. But the realm of heaven is outside of time and space, so what if those who leave this earthly realm through death, go immediately to the heavenly realm which is outside of our limited view of linear time. To us and our limited view they may be "asleep", but to them, they are immediately transported to the "eternal life", which is outside of our limited view of space and time.
Again, this is the conclusion I made. Time exists for the mortal. God can also manipulate how we mortals experience time. God can move people forward in time to see events.
I think that Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus on that Mount, while all three of them were "alive". I think Moses departed from the timeless conference with the glory of meeting the Messiah, as well as the revelation of the Tabernacle. I think that Elijah had just been picked up by the Chariot and this was stop number 1.
(Remember Elisha picked up another portion of spirit as Elijah left)
-----
So I believe the simplest representation would be a huge circle representing a curved timeline. All mortal people are moving in the same direction on this huge circle. (WE are all time travelers, we just go in one direction, and we can't "skip")
When a believer dies, they stop traveling along the timeline, and they move from the perimeter of the circle to the center.
But this distance is exactly the same for all people, regardless of when and where they started the timeline, regardless of how "long" they lived, the distance, and in one way of thinking, the arrival time for all is the same.
Time as we are defining it here, exists only for the living.
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I recently came across this which may explain it better than I:
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cman
Here is a very straight forward use of coming as a thief-
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
There are more, plenty more, especially in the gospels.
There will be many and for many a 'day of the Lord'.
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RachelYsrael
That's pretty good, Cman, but you left of something really important...
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Verse 3 kinda blows the the theory that you don't know when Jesus is coming back out of the water. It comes a thief to those who are not watching. And if you have not been taught (or kick against something you don't agree with) then you are in darkness. The Bible does reveal how to know when Jesus is coming back this next time, but so many people believe the Law (Old Testament) is not important, so they do not read it, nor do they believe that the God of the OT is even the same God as in the NT.
There are signs in Daniel, it tells you what to look for, and is also touched on in 2Thess. When you see it, start counting the days. There is a window of time for the people of God to get to safety...
Rachel
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cman
Naa...it don't blow nothing.
I have no theories. lol...
Why is that they know perfectly?And the sudden destruction-is it not like binding the 'strong man'?
So that an entering can happen without the man's interference.
Man's ideas will be destroyed-changed. For the new to 'come'.
Having experienced this, they know.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Everybody who has join in this tread
God loves you my dear friends
like our poet Sir Guess Alot talk about for some one to open their heart up about this matter at hand
first let me begin with the bible has not all the answers one may seek
if we truly want to keep things simple one needs to set their bible on their bed and go into another room where they can get peaceful
Then we can begin to talk with our God, so begin by talking at the opem space (if needed turn the lights off) while talking tell God and the gift of holy spirit within your inner self you need help understanding all the many voices like (year2027, Cman, RachelYsrael, Sirguessalot, Sunnyfla, and the many others who have shared their two cents) alone with what you have been taught about the subject at hand (where are the dead in Christ)
For God and Christ know where you are coming from
like the verse Ephesians 3:16 reads "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;" your conscience is what bears witness to anything you need to know
I believe God works in our conscience to teach us that which will help us move into the next stage of understanding
there is nothing to fear at all when we reach for spiritual insight and if we do not reach it our first try, try, try again and again until that small loving voice fills our heart
its like the visions i see from time to time that help me understand more clearly
I would see a circle that was white like a light from no where -- which would get me to think about Adam (the cell of the body)
with the circle, its middle would turn black then the outer layers would turn inside out making the darkness go away while making the circle biger and brighter
until a new thing would happen
the white would change shape to make it look like a great white bird
and as I would watch the bird would fly away
then I would think of the chick breaking out of the egg to the the butterfly comeing out of the worm to fly away
I believe things are not as hard as the Way cult tried to make them where we need a list of keys to understand God's word
because we have some one to teach us the seed of Christ our holy spiritual seed within us
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
no need for heavly keys you have the holy ghost
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
we have no need for men to teach us because we have holy spirit to teach us
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
who guides us Christ the Lord
we just point each other to Christ's holy spirit
so the man needed to be guided by Philip enough to receive the gift then being guided on the power of the gift
Christ to teach him because Philip can not sit there forever
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunnyfla
Sorry cman, you misunderstood what I said before. It wasn't the "theif in the night" that was the problem. I know He will come
as a theif in the night. It was the gathering part that you said He gets us "individually" that confused me. Please reread what I wrote
Again, I thought it says that we were gathered "together". Not trying to mince words really, but it's easy to get misunderstood
via webworld.
And I truly appreciate you jioning in this and helping to make sence of all this
year2027, I'm going to read your post then reply later, I'm heading out to work in a few minutes.
I will return :B)
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cman
Common sense tells me that you will find out anyway.
That not only individually and even more minute,
but also universally with more gathering togethers then once thought.
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Sunnyfla
Thank you year2027,
I agree with what you said, and of course what the word says about the Holy Spirit teaching us. God has taught and shown me many things since I left the ministry 15 years ago. Although, there are many topics here recently that are popping up in my studies. That's why I come here to see where everyone is at in what they believe now. I am not a biblical scholar as twi taught us to believe, but I do know that God will teach and show us what we need to know just at the right time in our lives. He knows our hearts and He prepares us for understanding. It has taken Him 15 years so far to get me to this point and He has A LOT of work to do in me still..LOL.. A life time of learning is still yet to come :)
You have a wonderful heart Roy. Thank you for all you do here at GSC.
With Love and a holy kiss blowing back at you
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year2027
God first
Beloved Sunnyfla
God loves you my dear friend
you have blessed me thanks and double thanks for the holy kiss
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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waysider
-------------------------------------------------------
Bringing this back to the top
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=16557
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wrdsandwrks
I thought I would weigh in here with what I've been thinking about and learning about this subject lately. First, I'm very suspect of any "doctrine" taught by TWI, whether about the nature of God, or heaven, hell, death etc. We were so indoctrinated to believe what was taught in PFAL and the explanations given to explain away contrary views.
Lazarus in Abraham's bosom: Luke 16:19-31
The great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12
The mount of transfiguration - Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-4
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
the spirits of just men made perfect in Revelation
There are others but I don't have a lot of time right now. So the Bible does indicate that the dead are alive, in spite of what we learned in PFAL, but there are also verses that indicate what's called "soul-sleep" until the Resurrection.
So, I've been thinking, what if both are true? We live in a limited arena of space and time, limited to three space dimensions and one time dimension. But the realm of heaven is outside of time and space, so what if those who leave this earthly realm through death, go immediately to the heavenly realm which is outside of our limited view of linear time. To us and our limited view they may be "asleep", but to them, they are immediately transported to the "eternal life", which is outside of our limited view of space and time.
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I recently came across this which may explain it better than I:
"Soul Sleep" or Immediate Resurrection
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Darrell Bailey
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