Why dont you go find ONE dead person and see what they say about it.
Go ahead, I'll wait...
Rachel
I thought we were talking about what the bible says about the state of the dead.
If I did produce a dead person who talked to us, those who believed that the dead were conscious and able to communicate with us would say "See, I told you so", and those who were convinced that the dead had no consciousness would have an alternative explanation, like that they were "devil spirits".
Rachel, you may very well be right, I'm just pointing out that your position isn't as self-evident as you claim that it is. bridepfjc expands a bit on my point and says it more clearly than I did.
I thought we were talking about what the bible says about the state of the dead.
Rachel, you may very well be right, I'm just pointing out that your position isn't as self-evident as you claim that it is. bridepfjc expands a bit on my point and says it more clearly than I did.
I have made no claims, Oak...Stated no position. Haven't said one time in this thread "I think".
The bible says the dead know not anything. They have no knowledge of NOTHIN. If the Bible is true, I have to go with that. It's not my postition, you see. I just shared a few verses ya know....
I thought we were talking about what the bible says about the state of the dead.
If I did produce a dead person who talked to us, those who believed that the dead were conscious and able to communicate with us would say "See, I told you so", and those who were convinced that the dead had no consciousness would have an alternative explanation, like that they were "devil spirits".
Here'e the thing about that, Oak. When I said go get ONE dead person, I mean it. Not something conjured, now. So because of the putrification factor, let's say they can't be dead more than 48 hours. Get one of those dead up, and talking' buddy. See what they say. Have words, breath, air...Ooops. If they are breathin' then they aren't dead. Damn. O well. Try it anyway, can't be too hard to find some newly dead soul (Body)
Rachel
(Just Clownin Around>>>>>Rachel does the Snake dance like Chris Tucker idn Rush Hour )
If I were to die tonight, I would expect to enter into a period of unconsciousness, and then to be awakened in "the resurrection" (hopefully, of the just! -- the justified would be just, no?). My reading of the Bible gives me this hope. I no longer look to "go to heaven" in the sense that this is where I'll reside (somewhere above earth). No, I expect the whole creation to become new, just as I have become renewed in the resurrection; I expect to live again by the grace of God upon an unspoiled earth, with new heavens above. The language of the Revelation of John is cryptic, but breathtaking. The references to Paradise seem to point back to the Garden -- unspoiled by rebellion and sin, by selfishness and pride.
"Where" my dearly departed mother (for example) is, I cannot say. I am willing to accept that my intellect is not up to the task to determine that. Our spacial and temporal viewpoints cause us to see "darkly" but there is a day when we will come face to face with a Greater viewpoint. She may be at rest, and perhaps even being refreshed, as Wright suggested. With the prophets, my hope is that in my flesh I will see God, and so will she.
Here'e the thing about that, Oak. When I said go get ONE dead person, I mean it. Not something conjured, now. So because of the putrification factor, let's say they can't be dead more than 48 hours. Get one of those dead up, and talking' buddy. See what they say. Have words, breath, air...Ooops. If they are breathin' then they aren't dead. Damn. O well. Try it anyway, can't be too hard to find some newly dead soul (Body)
Rachel
(Just Clownin Around>>>>>Rachel does the Snake dance like Chris Tucker idn Rush Hour )
Okay, you're just "clownin"...so you know that we're not talking about the dead being physically alive.
I have made no claims, Oak...Stated no position. Haven't said one time in this thread "I think".
Right, you didn't, but you "think" that seemingly contradictory sections, such as the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, should be interpreted in light of Ecclesiates about the dead not knowing any thing. That's your "position".
The bible says the dead know not anything. They have no knowledge of NOTHIN. If the Bible is true, I have to go with that. It's not my postition, you see. I just shared a few verses ya know....
Rachel
Paul also talks about departing and being with Christ, if the bible is true, then that would be what you have to go with as well.
it we leave it there we do not move forward or backwars
Let me ask you my friend because we are friends
What is the bible to you?
Are there other books that are not in the bible which are strill God's holy word?
I love to hear your answers.
but here is mine answers
What is the bible to you? nothing but a book which contains a cover, context, back, and a few other pages about the men who put it together but the word of God needs no pages given creit to men
Now do not get me wrong I love the Word of God like the book of Genesus or the book of John and all the other holy books trap in the bible cover and back
Are there other books that are not in the bible which are strill God's holy word? yes some still being wrote
like Cman said -
Taking the time to see other perspectives is doing what the bible teaches.
it is only simple because people make it that way
the amount of possible pieces to the puzze depends on the size of the picture and how big of pieces you want cut the picture into
Jesus Christ made waves by saying he was the end to the law
The Apostels made waves when they spoke in tongues
let us make waves in our believing by looking at other people perspectives with a open heart
I will give a reply, addressing everything you want addressed.
I BELIEVE...
There is a Ressurection - Actually I believe there are 2 Ressurections but I will keep this simple. I believe that when a soul (Body) dies it is dead. Literally and Figuratively. I am very specific about the soul - Man Became a Living Soul, right? So, what was he before that?
Dirt, Right?
The Bible says in Genesis Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. So I believe when a soul(body) dies it goes back to what ADAM was before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Did Adam have conscienceness before that? I don't think so. I believe the EXACT same thing happens to Man (Adama) when it dies. No consienceness. But at the Ressurection(s) all that a dead soul(body) was will be revived - almost like that original Adam the first time, just like Jesus at His ressurection. He was dead, no thought in his head those 3 days he was dead.
That is what I believe. And to the folks RUNNING to I and 2nd Peter, watch the word "when" about when Jesus went and preached to those spirits in prison. I clearly says he did this when the ark was preparing - being built.
I hope your not getting upset we are not trying to hurt you but we want to help you to move forward in your thinking by believing as you see best but also being knowledgeable about other possiblies
OK Gang,
I will give a reply, addressing everything you want addressed.
I BELIEVE...
There is a Ressurection - Actually I believe there are 2 Ressurections but I will keep this simple. I believe that when a soul (Body) dies it is dead. Literally and Figuratively. I am very specific about the soul - Man Became a Living Soul, right? So, what was he before that?
I too believe the soul dies as does the body but you forgot about the spirit - the spirit is the part that rises out from the body - the part that gets Ressurection it puts on a new soul one of spirit and a new body one of spirit
Dirt, Right?
The Bible says in Genesis Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. So I believe when a soul(body) dies it goes back to what ADAM was before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. then you are saying they go back to God because before there was dust there was onlu outer darkness and God and before there was soul in animals there was only growth life so the soul returns to God
I believe they the soul and the spirit return to God to be recreated new into a spiritual form
Did Adam have conscienceness before that? I don't think so. dust had conscienceness because it knew how to be dust
I believe the EXACT same thing happens to Man (Adama) when it dies. No consienceness. But at the Ressurection(s) all that a dead soul(body) was will be revived - almost like that original Adam the first time, just like Jesus at His ressurection. He was dead, no thought in his head those 3 days he was dead.
That is what I believe. And to the folks RUNNING to I and 2nd Peter, watch the word "when" about when Jesus went and preached to those spirits in prison. I clearly says he did this when the ark was preparing - being built.
So There.
Rachel
there nothing there to cover the subject of spirit nor do you deal with what dust and soul were before they were created, form, and made
but talking about the bible being simple you have not deal with the open graves of Matthew 27:52-53
nor have you show us what the last trump is
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
but remember to be the last trump it must be last
otherwise it comes after Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
or the last trump and the trumpet in Revelation are two different kinds of sounds
G4536. salpigx, sal'-pinx; perh. from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a trumpet:--trump (-et).
a lot to deal with to make it simple
but its ok if you do not have all the answers I do not have them all either
I hope your not getting upset we are not trying to hurt you but we want to help you to move forward in your thinking by believing as you see best but also being knowledgeable about other possiblies
there nothing there to cover the subject of spirit nor do you deal with what dust and soul were before they were created, form, and made
Roy, I think if you read what I wrote it is apparent that by "going back to what it was" implied being a dead soul.
but talking about the bible being simple you have not deal with the open graves of Matthew 27:52-53
I will not deal with this. My choice, Roy. You can't make me. (Hint>Forgery?)nor have you show us what the last trump is
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
but remember to be the last trump it must be last
I have dealt with these trumpets before Roy. You didn't like what I had to say about them. Jesus comes back at the LAST TRUMP. After the Tribulation. Then the Gathering Together. Roy.otherwise it comes after Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
or the last trump and the trumpet in Revelation are two different kinds of sounds
G4536. salpigx, sal'-pinx; perh. from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a trumpet:--trump (-et).
a lot to deal with to make it simple
but its ok if you do not have all the answers I do not have them all either
I don't have all the answers In My Head...I get them out of the Bible. Roy.
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
I believe I have offered my opinion on spirit as well. If not, then here it is. There are 2 types of bodies. The first is earthy, from the earth. (Adam - Soul) The second is a spirit body. What Jesus got when He was raised from the dead. What we will get at the Ressurection. A new, Born Again Body. As to the spirit that is in man - it is breath life (I believe)Roy.
but before we move on you are saying we live through the wrath the book of Revelation and do not escape the wrath
because last must be last and in Revelation trumps must sound before Christ comes back
I am not trying to make you deal with anything
but calling part of the word of God a Forgery is not a workman dividing the word of God rightly its running from hard subjects
maybe I am slow but in this tread I saw nothing that deal with these trumps in whole
so you are saying Jesus Christ comes back after the wrath of God has told in the book of Revelation and then we get the Gathering Together
my friend the bible does not have all the answers either but one can go to Christ for them
but you do not have to cover it all for me I just saw that maybe I could open your understanding to see things more focus than PFAL black and white
but yes lets leave it here until the next time
I lhope everything is all right and your not mad at me because I have enjoy debating with you because some times I need to debate a little to open things up to see things biger as we all do
Here'e the thing about that, Oak. When I said go get ONE dead person, I mean it. Not something conjured, now. So because of the putrification factor, let's say they can't be dead more than 48 hours. Get one of those dead up, and talking' buddy. See what they say. Have words, breath, air...Ooops. If they are breathin' then they aren't dead. Damn. O well. Try it anyway, can't be too hard to find some newly dead soul (Body)
Rachel
(Just Clownin Around>>>>>Rachel does the Snake dance like Chris Tucker idn Rush Hour )
Soul is not body...even the Scripture that Paul wrote of when he was saved along with 116 souls or so. Soul is what makes
us who we are, or basically our personalities, which is why there isn't anyone else just like you, so it is not the body that makes alive the soul. Again, when God breathed into Adam or the hunk of hamburger or chunk of clay that God had just formed, it was the entrance of God's Spirit that made Adam jump up and say, Hallelujah! Geez Dad, I'm hungry! LOL
The spirit of man remained even after the fall, what died that day was the lost connectivity to the Holy Spirit of God.
I also do not believe that we will be floating around on clouds strumming our harps...I mean...how God Awful boring. After all, the God of all the
Universe....when I see His handiwork in the millions of different buggies and they each have their own unique habitat...I think that God will be able
to make a heaven for us right here on earth. In fact, this is what I believe that Heaven and Earth will become one...no longer will there be a
separation between the two and we will be able to pass through if you will, even as Jesus suddenly appeared to His Disciples, yet He was also able
to eat food and to be touched and obviously He felt real to His disciples, because at the first they thought He was a ghostly apparition. Otherwise,
if indeed it is not upon this earth, why bring up that He will make rulers over 5 cities or of 10? Does Heaven need any other ruler but God?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
If I am reading this right, it says when God FORMED man from the dust of the ground, right? Then He breathed into him the breath of life, and THEN he became a LIVING soul.
I do not read anymore into this, but you may feel free to believe whatever you choose. Have at it.
If you will take the time to research the word soul in the bible, you will see that it is talking about a literal body. You have to make your own choices on this - I have made mine. In RachelWorld, Soul=Body. Amen and Amen.
so you are saying Jesus Christ comes back after the wrath of God has told in the book of Revelation and then we get the Gathering Together
my friend the bible does not have all the answers either but one can go to Christ for them
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53-55 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
death is gone the last enemy
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
so we do not see God's wrath and when it happens death is gone as far as we know
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
we can not become part of the dead in Christ
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
because we have the seed of Christ in us and we have become the alive in Christ
so either the new birth is a personal thing and there are many returns of Christ until the final or we were not made alive because when God makes us alive we are alive with Christ
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
ok either this is the last trump or the last trump is not what we think it is
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
o no here another trump after the last so either we each have our own last trump making God's Word more personal or Revelation 1:10 was not the last trump
I believe God's word is more personal and there are many last trumps has there are many victories over death our last enemy to fight
Interesting thread…I used to believe in a threefold composition of man [body, soul & spirit – a trichotomist view] – but now lean toward a twofold model [body & soul – a dichotomist view], in keeping with the Hebrew thought of seeing the unity of God's creation. Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground [material] and gave him the breath of life [immaterial] - man became a living soul.
When it comes to a discussion of death - rather than dissect man into parts for analysis – I think a more intriguing line of questioning would be to look at the relationship between body and soul.
It seems from Scripture that body and soul were designed in unity – or else murder would not be wrong:
Genesis 9:6 NASB
Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.
This warning came after the fall of man – which implies that fallen man still bears the image of God.
~~
Can the soul existseparately? From the following Scripture – it appears so – though it also may be inferred that it is not a permanent condition:
Psalm 16:10 NASB
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
Matthew 10:28 NASB
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 5:25-29 NASB
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
I Corinthians 15:42-45 NASB
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
II Corinthians 5:1-9 NASB
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Revelation 6:9-11 NASB
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Revelation 20:4-6 NASB
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
~~
Sunesis or others, can you recommend anything on the topic that deals with the state of the dead biblically? I'm particularly interested in something that answers the annhilationist and 'soul-sleep' positions we learned in Der Weg.
We have a home fellowship with a mix of former Way and never Way. A wonderful 'never-Way' man brought up this very question and a brief discussion ensued. I've been meditating on it and the word-picture of Lazarus being 'in the bosom of Abraham' resonates with me. So I'm interested, not that I expect to solve the problem and declare a written-in-stone doctrine, but in seeing the value of the orthodox position. (I've often described my post-Way journey as a long, slow slide into orthodoxy)...
Destruction versus Annihilation
This thread got me looking at a number of things. I no longer hold to the annihilationist viewpoint. An interesting study is the word for "destroy" in the above passage Matthew 10:28. According to Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, William Mounce general editor, page 423, 424 is defined under the word "lose" and is from the Greek word apollymi [strong's # 622], occurs 90 times and means "to destroy, perish, lose"; in some passages it denotes the idea of "destroying" or "ruining" something; (1. a) it can refer to physical destruction in the sense of killing [Matthew 2:13; 12:14; Mark 3:6; 9:22; 12:9]; it can also signify the destruction meted out in divine judgment [James 4:12; Jude 5], which according to Matthew 10:28 is realized in hell.
(1. b) To experience destruction, to perish. Objects can perish [Matthew 9:17; mark 2:22; Luke 5:37], as well as people. The disciples used this word when they thought they would drown, Lord save us, we are perishing [Matthew 8:25; Mark 4:38; Luke 8:24]. It can also signify the destruction meted out in divine judgment [John 3:16; 17:12].
(2) A second meaning is to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, "to lose" [Matthew 10:42; cf. Mark 9:41; II John 8].
(3) Finally, apollymi can mean "to lose" something that one already has or to be separated from a normal connection [Matthew 5:29; 10:39; cf. 16:25; Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24; 15:8; 17:33; John 12:25].
End of referencing Mounce's
~~
From Mounce's work I think death and destruction in Scripture [as related to our topic] are defined as: Death - a separation from a normal connection [separation of body and soul], a body's loss of the life-force. Destruction – a consequence of divine judgment and implies something is ruined, perhaps defaced, weakened, impaired, or rendered useless.
According to The Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, compiled by Christine Lindberg, on page 230, discussing the synonyms for destroy – says of annihilate that it is the most extreme word in the group and literally means to reduce to nothingness…Which I take to mean something is no longer in existence. Going by the above passages that show the existence of the soul after death and the eventual re-fitting of all souls with the appropriate body for heaven or hell, I would say that the concept of the annihilation of anyone's existence is foreign to Scripture.
Soul Sleep
I thought this was interesting. From The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter Elwell, editor, pages 1037, 1038:
"Soul sleep. Psychopannychy, the doctrine that the soul sleeps between death and destruction. It has been held sporadically in the church. It is not a heresy in the narrower sense, due to the paucity of Scripture teaching on the intermediate state, but it may be called a doctrinal aberration…
…The case for soul sleep rests principally on these considerations: (1) Human existence demands the unity of soul and body. If the body ceases to function, so must the soul. (2) The use of the term "sleep" in Scripture for death is alleged to point to the cessation of consciousness. (3) A state of consciousness between death and resurrection, characterized by bliss or woe, unwarrantably anticipates the judgment of the last day, when the basis for these experiences is provided.
On the contrary view, while the normal state of man is admittedly a union of soul and body, the possibility of disembodied conscious existence is firmly held, both on the analogy of God's existence as pure spirit [man being made in his image] and on the basis of such passages as Hebrews 12:23 and Revelation 6:9-11…
…Continuing consciousness after death seems to be necessary [rather than an accidental] element in Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus, and also in our Lord's promise to the dying thief. The clearest and strongest passages however, are in Paul's writings [Philippians 1:23; II Corinthians 5:8]…"
End of Excerpts
~~
Sorry for the long post…I should have contributed earlier – I've been extremely busy at work and haven't had enough time to condense a few of my thoughts to several shorter posts.
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year2027
God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear friend
I have talk to dead people like Moses, Adam, E. W. Bullinger, my mother, two uncle’s, a aunt, and the list is longbut it is not about not what I believe but what you said you can prove
but you did not make anything clear to me and my friend Oakspear nor did VPW make things clear
let us face facts you told us what you believe and what you base it on
we just question your believe because you claim that they are a fact
your welcome to question my beliefs I will tell you I can not prove anything nor would I want to try
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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brideofjc
When I read Eccl 9:5, I used to espouse what TWI said, but no more....it doesn't say that THEIR memory is forgotten, but the
memory OF THEM is forgotten. I occasionally still remember my Grandfather, but he's been dead now for 33 years and I know that once I die
my daughter will not think about him other than a name in a family Bible. Why? Because he died before my daughter was born.
and then look at Ps 6:5....in death there is no remembrance of thee (: colon) in the grave who shall give THEE thanks?
The remembrance is of God and the next clause verifies that the writer is thinking of the Lord for he then says "give thee thanks?"
I personally would like to think that when I die, I will be awake and in the presence of the Lord. When the Bible speaks of people who have
died as being asleep....it might be only talking about "resting in the Lord" and not a literal sleep or unconscienceness.
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brideofjc
It's not about finding a dead person to see what they have to say about it. There isn't any question that the
body is dead and therefore the brains cells have decayed and so logically speaking the person doesn't have the capability to
retain or remember anything physically such as how to tie your shoes, etc.
1 Thess 5:23 Paul clearly demarcated that there were three components to the human person, namely: spirit, soul and body. It is when
we do not observe such distinctions that we find ourselves wading through questions. Does the body die? yes. Does the spirit live eternally?
yes. I believe that whether you believe in Jesus or not, your spirit is eternal and you are merely deciding on which place you will live
in for all eternity. Now about that tricky thing we call soul. The Scriptures for me are clear and that it says that when God breathed into
Adam, he BECAME a living SOUL. So it is when we die, we become a dead soul. So where does the soul go to? I believe it is our soul
that will be judged. Our spirits were made alive when we chose Christ to be our Savior. The flesh will one day be resurrected.
A good way to think about it is this: I am saved (spirit); I am being saved (soul) and I will be saved (body).
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Oakspear
If I did produce a dead person who talked to us, those who believed that the dead were conscious and able to communicate with us would say "See, I told you so", and those who were convinced that the dead had no consciousness would have an alternative explanation, like that they were "devil spirits".
Rachel, you may very well be right, I'm just pointing out that your position isn't as self-evident as you claim that it is. bridepfjc expands a bit on my point and says it more clearly than I did.
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RachelYsrael
I have made no claims, Oak...Stated no position. Haven't said one time in this thread "I think".
The bible says the dead know not anything. They have no knowledge of NOTHIN. If the Bible is true, I have to go with that. It's not my postition, you see. I just shared a few verses ya know....
Rachel
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RachelYsrael
Here'e the thing about that, Oak. When I said go get ONE dead person, I mean it. Not something conjured, now. So because of the putrification factor, let's say they can't be dead more than 48 hours. Get one of those dead up, and talking' buddy. See what they say. Have words, breath, air...Ooops. If they are breathin' then they aren't dead. Damn. O well. Try it anyway, can't be too hard to find some newly dead soul (Body)
Rachel
(Just Clownin Around>>>>>Rachel does the Snake dance like Chris Tucker idn Rush Hour
)
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God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear friend
I see your not going to reply to my words that is ok I still love you
The baby in the worm is alive but it does not breath
you are thinking fleshly but are raise spiritual to become like the most high God
You have made claims because a book can not talk my friend it must be quoted
you making a claim we do not agree with
that what debating is about
one person makes a statement
another person questions the statement
then the first person opens their heart and looks at things again
then the debate moves forward
but what I see with you on this point a close mind unwilling to look deeper into things
its about looking outside the box of your beliefs
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
It's a matter of perspective really.
The dead are dead.
Or asleep.
Who needs to wake up?
The resurrection is -
every man in his own order
1 Cor 15
Which can happen before we die.
And will happen after we die.
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anotherDan
If I were to die tonight, I would expect to enter into a period of unconsciousness, and then to be awakened in "the resurrection" (hopefully, of the just! -- the justified would be just, no?). My reading of the Bible gives me this hope. I no longer look to "go to heaven" in the sense that this is where I'll reside (somewhere above earth). No, I expect the whole creation to become new, just as I have become renewed in the resurrection; I expect to live again by the grace of God upon an unspoiled earth, with new heavens above. The language of the Revelation of John is cryptic, but breathtaking. The references to Paradise seem to point back to the Garden -- unspoiled by rebellion and sin, by selfishness and pride.
"Where" my dearly departed mother (for example) is, I cannot say. I am willing to accept that my intellect is not up to the task to determine that. Our spacial and temporal viewpoints cause us to see "darkly" but there is a day when we will come face to face with a Greater viewpoint. She may be at rest, and perhaps even being refreshed, as Wright suggested. With the prophets, my hope is that in my flesh I will see God, and so will she.
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RachelYsrael
It's pretty simple for me, Roy. I believe the Bible. By your own admission, you don't. Let's leave it there, Roy.
Rachel
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cman
No.....it's not that simple.
Taking the time to see other perspectives is doing what the bible teaches.
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
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year2027
God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear friend and so do I
it we leave it there we do not move forward or backwars
Let me ask you my friend because we are friends
What is the bible to you?
Are there other books that are not in the bible which are strill God's holy word?
I love to hear your answers.
but here is mine answers
What is the bible to you? nothing but a book which contains a cover, context, back, and a few other pages about the men who put it together but the word of God needs no pages given creit to men
Now do not get me wrong I love the Word of God like the book of Genesus or the book of John and all the other holy books trap in the bible cover and back
Are there other books that are not in the bible which are strill God's holy word? yes some still being wrote
like Cman said -
it is only simple because people make it that way
the amount of possible pieces to the puzze depends on the size of the picture and how big of pieces you want cut the picture into
Jesus Christ made waves by saying he was the end to the law
The Apostels made waves when they spoke in tongues
let us make waves in our believing by looking at other people perspectives with a open heart
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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RachelYsrael
OK Gang,
I will give a reply, addressing everything you want addressed.
I BELIEVE...
There is a Ressurection - Actually I believe there are 2 Ressurections but I will keep this simple. I believe that when a soul (Body) dies it is dead. Literally and Figuratively. I am very specific about the soul - Man Became a Living Soul, right? So, what was he before that?
Dirt, Right?
The Bible says in Genesis Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. So I believe when a soul(body) dies it goes back to what ADAM was before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Did Adam have conscienceness before that? I don't think so. I believe the EXACT same thing happens to Man (Adama) when it dies. No consienceness. But at the Ressurection(s) all that a dead soul(body) was will be revived - almost like that original Adam the first time, just like Jesus at His ressurection. He was dead, no thought in his head those 3 days he was dead.
That is what I believe. And to the folks RUNNING to I and 2nd Peter, watch the word "when" about when Jesus went and preached to those spirits in prison. I clearly says he did this when the ark was preparing - being built.
So There.
Rachel
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God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear friend
I hope your not getting upset we are not trying to hurt you but we want to help you to move forward in your thinking by believing as you see best but also being knowledgeable about other possiblies
there nothing there to cover the subject of spirit nor do you deal with what dust and soul were before they were created, form, and made
but talking about the bible being simple you have not deal with the open graves of Matthew 27:52-53
nor have you show us what the last trump is
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
but remember to be the last trump it must be last
otherwise it comes after Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
or the last trump and the trumpet in Revelation are two different kinds of sounds
G4536. salpigx, sal'-pinx; perh. from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a trumpet:--trump (-et).
a lot to deal with to make it simple
but its ok if you do not have all the answers I do not have them all either
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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RachelYsrael
I believe I have offered my opinion on spirit as well. If not, then here it is. There are 2 types of bodies. The first is earthy, from the earth. (Adam - Soul) The second is a spirit body. What Jesus got when He was raised from the dead. What we will get at the Ressurection. A new, Born Again Body. As to the spirit that is in man - it is breath life (I believe)Roy.
Roy Roy Roy.
It's the...Eye of the Tiger......
Hope that covers it for you, Roy.
Rachel
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God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear friend
ok I we will leave there my friend
but before we move on you are saying we live through the wrath the book of Revelation and do not escape the wrath
because last must be last and in Revelation trumps must sound before Christ comes back
I am not trying to make you deal with anything
but calling part of the word of God a Forgery is not a workman dividing the word of God rightly its running from hard subjects
maybe I am slow but in this tread I saw nothing that deal with these trumps in whole
so you are saying Jesus Christ comes back after the wrath of God has told in the book of Revelation and then we get the Gathering Together
my friend the bible does not have all the answers either but one can go to Christ for them
but you do not have to cover it all for me I just saw that maybe I could open your understanding to see things more focus than PFAL black and white
but yes lets leave it here until the next time
I lhope everything is all right and your not mad at me because I have enjoy debating with you because some times I need to debate a little to open things up to see things biger as we all do
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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brideofjc
Soul is not body...even the Scripture that Paul wrote of when he was saved along with 116 souls or so. Soul is what makes
us who we are, or basically our personalities, which is why there isn't anyone else just like you, so it is not the body that makes alive the soul. Again, when God breathed into Adam or the hunk of hamburger or chunk of clay that God had just formed, it was the entrance of God's Spirit that made Adam jump up and say, Hallelujah! Geez Dad, I'm hungry! LOL
The spirit of man remained even after the fall, what died that day was the lost connectivity to the Holy Spirit of God.
I also do not believe that we will be floating around on clouds strumming our harps...I mean...how God Awful boring. After all, the God of all the
Universe....when I see His handiwork in the millions of different buggies and they each have their own unique habitat...I think that God will be able
to make a heaven for us right here on earth. In fact, this is what I believe that Heaven and Earth will become one...no longer will there be a
separation between the two and we will be able to pass through if you will, even as Jesus suddenly appeared to His Disciples, yet He was also able
to eat food and to be touched and obviously He felt real to His disciples, because at the first they thought He was a ghostly apparition. Otherwise,
if indeed it is not upon this earth, why bring up that He will make rulers over 5 cities or of 10? Does Heaven need any other ruler but God?
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RachelYsrael
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
If I am reading this right, it says when God FORMED man from the dust of the ground, right? Then He breathed into him the breath of life, and THEN he became a LIVING soul.
I do not read anymore into this, but you may feel free to believe whatever you choose. Have at it.
If you will take the time to research the word soul in the bible, you will see that it is talking about a literal body. You have to make your own choices on this - I have made mine. In RachelWorld, Soul=Body. Amen and Amen.
Rachel
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RachelYsrael
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
ROY!!!
LOOK AT THIS, OK?
LOOK HARD AT IT.
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Oakspear
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God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear friend
look at this then
1 Corinthians 15:53-55 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
death is gone the last enemy
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
so we do not see God's wrath and when it happens death is gone as far as we know
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
we can not become part of the dead in Christ
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
because we have the seed of Christ in us and we have become the alive in Christ
so either the new birth is a personal thing and there are many returns of Christ until the final or we were not made alive because when God makes us alive we are alive with Christ
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
ok either this is the last trump or the last trump is not what we think it is
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
o no here another trump after the last so either we each have our own last trump making God's Word more personal or Revelation 1:10 was not the last trump
I believe God's word is more personal and there are many last trumps has there are many victories over death our last enemy to fight
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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T-Bone
Interesting thread…I used to believe in a threefold composition of man [body, soul & spirit – a trichotomist view] – but now lean toward a twofold model [body & soul – a dichotomist view], in keeping with the Hebrew thought of seeing the unity of God's creation. Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground [material] and gave him the breath of life [immaterial] - man became a living soul.
When it comes to a discussion of death - rather than dissect man into parts for analysis – I think a more intriguing line of questioning would be to look at the relationship between body and soul.
It seems from Scripture that body and soul were designed in unity – or else murder would not be wrong:
Genesis 9:6 NASB
Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.
This warning came after the fall of man – which implies that fallen man still bears the image of God.
~~
Can the soul exist separately? From the following Scripture – it appears so – though it also may be inferred that it is not a permanent condition:
Psalm 16:10 NASB
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
Matthew 10:28 NASB
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 5:25-29 NASB
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
I Corinthians 15:42-45 NASB
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
II Corinthians 5:1-9 NASB
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Revelation 6:9-11 NASB
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Revelation 20:4-6 NASB
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
~~
Destruction versus Annihilation
This thread got me looking at a number of things. I no longer hold to the annihilationist viewpoint. An interesting study is the word for "destroy" in the above passage Matthew 10:28. According to Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, William Mounce general editor, page 423, 424 is defined under the word "lose" and is from the Greek word apollymi [strong's # 622], occurs 90 times and means "to destroy, perish, lose"; in some passages it denotes the idea of "destroying" or "ruining" something; (1. a) it can refer to physical destruction in the sense of killing [Matthew 2:13; 12:14; Mark 3:6; 9:22; 12:9]; it can also signify the destruction meted out in divine judgment [James 4:12; Jude 5], which according to Matthew 10:28 is realized in hell.
(1. b) To experience destruction, to perish. Objects can perish [Matthew 9:17; mark 2:22; Luke 5:37], as well as people. The disciples used this word when they thought they would drown, Lord save us, we are perishing [Matthew 8:25; Mark 4:38; Luke 8:24]. It can also signify the destruction meted out in divine judgment [John 3:16; 17:12].
(2) A second meaning is to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, "to lose" [Matthew 10:42; cf. Mark 9:41; II John 8].
(3) Finally, apollymi can mean "to lose" something that one already has or to be separated from a normal connection [Matthew 5:29; 10:39; cf. 16:25; Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24; 15:8; 17:33; John 12:25].
End of referencing Mounce's
~~
From Mounce's work I think death and destruction in Scripture [as related to our topic] are defined as: Death - a separation from a normal connection [separation of body and soul], a body's loss of the life-force. Destruction – a consequence of divine judgment and implies something is ruined, perhaps defaced, weakened, impaired, or rendered useless.
According to The Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, compiled by Christine Lindberg, on page 230, discussing the synonyms for destroy – says of annihilate that it is the most extreme word in the group and literally means to reduce to nothingness…Which I take to mean something is no longer in existence. Going by the above passages that show the existence of the soul after death and the eventual re-fitting of all souls with the appropriate body for heaven or hell, I would say that the concept of the annihilation of anyone's existence is foreign to Scripture.
Soul Sleep
I thought this was interesting. From The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter Elwell, editor, pages 1037, 1038:
"Soul sleep. Psychopannychy, the doctrine that the soul sleeps between death and destruction. It has been held sporadically in the church. It is not a heresy in the narrower sense, due to the paucity of Scripture teaching on the intermediate state, but it may be called a doctrinal aberration…
…The case for soul sleep rests principally on these considerations: (1) Human existence demands the unity of soul and body. If the body ceases to function, so must the soul. (2) The use of the term "sleep" in Scripture for death is alleged to point to the cessation of consciousness. (3) A state of consciousness between death and resurrection, characterized by bliss or woe, unwarrantably anticipates the judgment of the last day, when the basis for these experiences is provided.
On the contrary view, while the normal state of man is admittedly a union of soul and body, the possibility of disembodied conscious existence is firmly held, both on the analogy of God's existence as pure spirit [man being made in his image] and on the basis of such passages as Hebrews 12:23 and Revelation 6:9-11…
…Continuing consciousness after death seems to be necessary [rather than an accidental] element in Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus, and also in our Lord's promise to the dying thief. The clearest and strongest passages however, are in Paul's writings [Philippians 1:23; II Corinthians 5:8]…"
End of Excerpts
~~
Sorry for the long post…I should have contributed earlier – I've been extremely busy at work and haven't had enough time to condense a few of my thoughts to several shorter posts.
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