I agree that there are differences, but the similarity is that martyrs from both Christianity and Islam are both convinced of the absolute rightness of their faith. The Muslim using the Koran is just as successfull as the Christian using the Bible at documenting their position.
Hi,
To agree with you, I would have to presuppose that those who strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocents are martyrs for their faith. That is a supposition I cannot prescribe too. I do dare call it murder/suicide though.
The two cannot be equated. Not without rationalization.
Again, I am no good at apolegtics. It would take someone with far more knowledge and intellect to explain the difference between the Koran and the Bible--the essence of God and the Power of the Holy Spirit.
I can quote John14:6 to you ad nauseum, but why? You know it as well as I. I assume you have read your bible. That is one assumption about ex-way I feel safe in making. :)
What I would like to say to you is that our experiences in the Way were abusive and detremental to our spiritual well-being. That is my opinion.
However, if you at some point begin to thrist for more or a different relationship with God (I always want more) it is not only possible--it is a given He will welcome you.
Please notice, I did not assume your spiritual life now is void. I don't know that. I don't judge that-I would just encourage you to listen to any tug or pull that you might feel on your heart.
I am no brain--I am a heart kinda gal. I have that (obnoxious to some) steadfast faith that Jesus is able to save to uttermost.
I would encourage you to read the same book I offered George--although I assume you are not an atheist. If he doesn't want it, I would happily send it on to you! Along with my very best.
I feel a real kinship with ex-way. Who else would believe the stories we can tell!! Rather shocking to the average ear!
If Jesus told you that you must abandon a dying parent or loved one in order to follow him, - would you have done it?
In my early days with TWI I was discouraged from taking care of my mother, who was dying of cancer. No one told me flat out not to take care of her (though my husband was pretty unhappy about me doing it and no one from TWI offered an assistance or support). I took care of her anyway, in a hospital bed, in her livingroom, with the help of my sister, my grandmother, and the mother of my sister's boyfriend (who never even met my mom until she was very near the end).
A few years later, as my grandmother was undergoing surgery, I was busy taking a class. I should have been at her side at the hospital, but the all important class . . . A few days later I got a call from my sister-in-law telling me my Uncle was withdrawing life support and I should come right away. I dropped out of the class and drove as fast as I could to Detroit, but by the time I arrived it was too late.
If I had it to do over again, I would have spent those last few days at h er bedside.
To many Christians, making the Christian choice is the only right decision humankind can make, which makes nonChristians wrong, of course.
Most religions are exclusionary, at least to some degree or another. Usually there are divisions, sects, that are more exclusionary and sects that are less exlusionary.
Geisha said:
Again, I am no good at apolegtics. It would take someone with far more knowledge and intellect to explain the difference between the Koran and the Bible--the essence of God and the Power of the Holy Spirit
And this is probably my biggest problem with organized religion - the tendency to focus on the differences. For a while, a number of us (Christian, Jew, Pagan, etc.) spent quite a bit of time down here in the doctrinal forum exploring our similarities. What I found is, we have far more in common than you might imagine. In fact, if you remove the labels/names and traditional rituals, you would find there aren't many differences at all.
Geisha said:
To agree with you, I would have to presuppose that those who strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocents are martyrs for their faith. That is a supposition I cannot prescribe too. I do dare call it murder/suicide though.
Ah, but if the martyrs were Christians and they were blowing up innocents in the name of a holy war???? If they were killing off the Jews and heretics as was done in the 1400 - 1500's? If they were killing off Native Americans and forcing their children to convert to Christianity???
Perspective.
I'm not condoning suicide bombers, mind you. Likewise, I don't condone things which have been done in the name of Christianity.
And this is probably my biggest problem with organized religion - the tendency to focus on the differences. For a while, a number of us (Christian, Jew, Pagan, etc.) spent quite a bit of time down here in the doctrinal forum exploring our similarities. What I found is, we have far more in common than you might imagine. In fact, if you remove the labels/names and traditional rituals, you would find there aren't many differences at all.
I would respectfully disagree with you. I do believe that absolute truth can be known.
However, I also think that the belief system that says no one can know truth in such a way as to invalidate someone elses beliefs is wrong, and is in itself religious.
It has its own affirmations--doctrines--and denials.
To say that God cannot be known at all presupposes that the one saying this knows all. Which is what saying our beliefs are similar fosters.
Why is it that a broken, unworthy, sinful, repentent Christian who dogmatically holds fast to Jesus and the bible is arrogant?
While the "All paths lead to God-tolerant-we are more alike than different" relativist disciple is enlightened? This system uses absolutes to say there are none.
As much as I can love you, I cannot agree with you. I am positive there is no other way but that of Jesus crucified, buried, and risen.
With His refining work to follow. It is hardwired into me.
I am unflappable. Therefore, by many standards arrogant and unenlightened.
I surely do not mean to sound harsh, but I am steadfast. Not because I see myself as morally superior, in fact I know that I am not, I am broken, sinful, and
unworthy to stand before a Holy God. That is why I cleave to Jesus. I don't judge those who believe other than I---not my job or inclination. I just don't find
common ground and build from there. Faith in Christ is what it is.
Ah, but if the martyrs were Christians and they were blowing up innocents in the name of a holy war???? If they were killing off the Jews and heretics as was done in the 1400 - 1500's? If they were killing off Native Americans and forcing their children to convert to Christianity???
Well, if someone did do that in the name of Christianity it would not be anything to do with Christ. We are called to love. Not just our friends which is easy, but our enemies. I am called to love Hindus-Muslims, Jews, Pagans and on we go. To feed the poor, comfort the sick and to give of myself to the point of selling what I have to give if need be. No matter their faith.
I said before that I could cite countless things done in the name of Jesus that are chilling. I would argue that He had nothing to do with them. He healed all that He met who were in need--denied no one--and still desires all to come to Him. What man does, in His name to cause harm--is man doing it. This includes many of the things said and done by evangelicals today. I have very little respect for most modern day American evangelicals-who distort the simple beauty of the gospel with politics, protests, and televangelism.
The Gospel message is a heart-wrenching beautiful love story--written by a God who desires you and paid a precious price to redeem you.
That is what makes Jesus so unique
You and I and this entire universe groan and travail and wait--I wonder you don't feel it?
George, just an observation and in no way a judgement, you seem to work very hard at your unbelief.
Oh, not at all. It's really pretty easy - much easier than making it to "twig" every farking day, that's fer sure. If you'd like to join my sect, it's very simple. Just ask "why", "how", and "what evidence do you have to support that idea" MUCH more than you have been. You'll be surprised how quickly those scales will fall from your eyes of understanding! Wouldn't you like to go to church with ME? (oh, and BTW, I do not, nor probably will I ever, claim the title of "atheist". I just don't think it's possible to have that degree of certainty, given the human condition. I'm an apathetic agnostic - semi-reformed)
I truly don't feel what you feel geisha. I think absolutist beliefs, one way for all mankind, lead to strife, division and break down of community and family, because it only works when every one agrees. If one changes, they become 'other', not like me, wrong, and that changes all kinds of relationships and actions between people, and when taken far enough by an individual or society, lead to enmity.
Finding commonalities, building bridges, not seeing other religions as 'not right people'--and I believe it does lead to that--is ultimately destructive. I believe tolerance of difference is healthy.
I do have hope, but my hope is that more and more that people will awaken to see if their choices build or ruin.
We all have the freedom to pick our beliefs, and we can all evaluate the places they lead to as best we can.
As far as absolute truth can be known--shrug--Christians don't have a one, definative doctrine, so it seems that that is not so. Perhaps the God knows the one truth, but humans do not.
I've avoided the Doctrinal Forum for a long time... long story.
But this thread keeps calling to me. I'm not sure I really have much to add - just my thoughts as I read.
I think that every belief has an 'inner work" that needs to happen before any real "outreach" (I hate to use that word, but I can't think of another that fits) even can be possible.
When you truly believe something- you act accordingly. No one really has to tell you what to do or say and you don't necessarily need to 'witness' (ouch! again) for your beliefs to be evident.
Maybe it's a sign of maturity when a person doesn't feel the desperate need to have everyone believe as he or she does. I'm sure that there are as many different "religions" as there are people- because every person has their way in which they have internalized their beliefs into a "working theory." At some point in time there is no more need for a "club." The man or woman may choose to hang out with people who have similar beliefs- but the inner demand for a carbon copy of each and every precept is no longer there. The sense of "us against them" is gone. The "war" has subsided.
Now discussion is possible. Now the haughty "let me teach you!" element is gone.
Hope this makes sense...of course it really has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
Most religions are exclusionary, at least to some degree or another.
For centuries, Hindu women have worn a dot on their foreheads.
Most of us have naively thought this was connected with marriage or religion, but the Indian Embassy in Washington , D.C. has recently revealed the true story.
When a Hindu woman gets married, she brings a dowry into the union.
On her wedding night, the husband scratches off the dot to see whether he has won a convenience store, a gas station, a donut shop or a motel in the United States .
If nothing is there, he must take a job in India answering telephones at AOL giving technical advice.
I would respectfully disagree with you. I do believe that absolute truth can be known.
For the sake of discussion I'll stipulate that it can. How then can you determine which of the competing "truths" is THE TRUTH?
However, I also think that the belief system that says no one can know truth in such a way as to invalidate someone elses beliefs is wrong, and is in itself religious.
Interesting take, similar to the atheism = religion argument. I suppose if one were to say "there is no way that your "truth" can be TRUTH, I might agree with you. It goes back for me to theory vs. practice. In theory truth can be determined, in practice I haven't seen it done.
To say that God cannot be known at all presupposes that the one saying this knows all. Which is what saying our beliefs are similar fosters.
Not at all. All that it presupposes is that no one has come up with an objective verifiable measurament of that "knowing".
Caveman, I am diggin what you said in 41 and 44. Although, some of it I many not understand. Regardless, of doctrinal differences we are all to love one another.
One thing I have learned is that healing is already a done deal. We are healed by the stripes of Jesus Christ. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy our health and well being. He has no authority to do that. Sickness and disease has no authority in our body. Unless, of course, we give it authority like eating buckets of KFC, chain smoking, consuming gallons of soda pop and all the while never getting off the sofa. You get my idea. There is also methods, wiles and schemes.
We don't have to request healing. We already have it. If I get boogered up I just tell it to get out. I speak the Word to it. Works for me. Mercy sakes, if there was a formula, I would already be on the other side of the grass. I am still working on long division! Ha! Ha! I hope you understand my humor. It just represents to me that Father knew He would have to keep it simple so little ole me's could get it. The power of the spoken Word is a force I don't believe I have yet realized the full potential of. That is something I have been studying and working on for a while. And God said, and God said...and it was so...and we are to be imitators of God as dear children just like the Lord Jesus Christ was. Father has already taught us in His Word what we are to speak. Proverbs is jam packed with references about the effect of words.
It sounds like you may be a part of Bob Mathieson's ministry, http://www.outreachofgodsword.com/ I was for a while, but they are too far away. I neded to get involved with someone locally before I could raise up to my calling.
Hi,
Somewhat confused here and please bear with me. What did I miss? People are demons? HUH?
Don't worry about it. I'm just trying to get their dander up.
I would respectfully disagree with you. I do believe that absolute truth can be known.
However, I also think that the belief system that says no one can know truth in such a way as to invalidate someone elses beliefs is wrong, and is in itself religious.
It has its own affirmations--doctrines--and denials.
all religions have their own affirmations, doctrines and denials, so what is the difference? I think the difference is that openess/acceptance of another's religion brings about the possibility of peace and on some level unity. On the other hand, the notion that "my god is bigger, better, righter than your god is more inclined to bring division and strive.
To say that God cannot be known at all presupposes that the one saying this knows all. Which is what saying our beliefs are similar fosters.
Who said God cannot be known at all? I would be more inclined toward saying no one individual knows all of God. However, if we combine our knowledge and share it, we all know more than any one of us can know individually.
Why is it that a broken, unworthy, sinful, repentent Christian who dogmatically holds fast to Jesus and the bible is arrogant?
I didn't say broken, unworthy, sinful and repentent Christians are arrogant. Perhaps you would have to explain what you mean by dogmaticcally holding fast to Jesus and the bible??
While the "All paths lead to God-tolerant-we are more alike than different" relativist disciple is enlightened? This system uses absolutes to say there are none.
I guess I don't tend to think in terms of one individual or one group as being more enlightened. I think we all have different areas of enlightenment and together we shine more brightly.
As much as I can love you, I cannot agree with you. I am positive there is no other way but that of Jesus crucified, buried, and risen.
And that is fine - that is your way, so if nothing else it is the only way for you. I have no quarrel with you there. I am Jewish. I still believe in Jesus, but I have a somewhat different understanding of him than you do. At least, I suspect I do - I am somewhat stereotyping you based on the label you have given yourself and the terminoligy you use. It is entirely possible I am wrong and that we view Jesus the same . . . only further discussion would give us a better understanding in that regard.
With His refining work to follow. It is hardwired into me.
I am unflappable. Therefore, by many standards arrogant and unenlightened.
I would not be so bold as to call you unenlightened. I am not sure I would even go so far as to call you arrogant. I MAY (I don't really know you well enoough to have formed an opinion) decide that one, two, a few of your beliefs are arrogant - then again, I may not.
I surely do not mean to sound harsh, but I am steadfast. Not because I see myself as morally superior, in fact I know that I am not, I am broken, sinful, and
unworthy to stand before a Holy God. That is why I cleave to Jesus. I don't judge those who believe other than I---not my job or inclination. I just don't find
common ground and build from there. Faith in Christ is what it is.
I think your unwillingness to look for common ground is sad. In the end, however, your choice and potentially your loss. Shrug
I posted this I think once before, but since we're debating GOD...well... I thought now that George Carlin has GONE that maybe some people might need a l a u g h...?? I don't know, you cult people live on a strange street corner.
Somewhat confused here and please bear with me. What did I miss? People are demons? HUH?)
Don't worry about it. I'm just trying to get their dander up.
I've been successful.
This would be a good example of the type of religion I consider destructive. There was no history of animosity here, just opinions calmly posted that Caveman disagreed with. This comment is not humorous or pithy. It tells much more about caveman than it does about Invisible Dan or Oakspear.
And just wait--Soon a believer holding this attitude will soon be whining about how Christians are disrespected on GSC. Oh woewizus, see how we get treated!
I really enjoyed your post-truly. My point was--I believe what I believe and that is unchangable. Because of my faith in Christ--FOR ME--He is All.
There is no other way to God--that actually is part of my faith. Perceiveable to many as intolerant. As such a steadfast believer, I can find no common ground on
issues of faith with those that don't accept Him as Savoir. To me, it is not just a belief--it is the fabric of who I now am. Does that make any sense? It is not just a
notion or an excerise in philosophy--it is my heart and my soul. It is how I live.
BUT--if I live it the way Jesus meant--I will love, not judge--I will serve, not take and I will strive to keep peace. There is no one of any other faith not welcome in
my home--with the exception of Satanist--who kinda scare me. Homosexuals --- atheists--- exway :) All welcome! I would never turn my back on anyone in need.
But, that is what I believe is expected of me as a follower of Christ. I long to serve others. Do you know what I mean? If it is lived right--it is an amazing thing.
I strive for this because I have been given a second chance--I am redeemed. That is my belief--confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit--but not TWI's version. LOL
You might actually like me if you met me. I don't always speak of matters of faith. This is a doctrinal forum and that is what we are talking about. LOL
I can party with the best of em--unless it is after 10:00pm. Then I start to fade. I sure would like to know how that happened?
Christians are no better than anyone else!!!!! I really mean that. In fact, think about it. To realize you need a Savoir--you have to see you are a sinner---that
is what brings us to the Cross. I know my shortcomings and they are plenty.
Hope this helps explain a bit. I do really like ex-way people. I mean--we picked a podunk cult--slogged through together and all landed in different places. We
share a unique experience. And as much as it irks me--it did, for a time, shape us. I still carry some scars from those days--actions resulting from a vapid system
of flagrant theology. Things I can never undo--you know what? I know you "get" that.
For the sake of discussion I'll stipulate that it can. How then can you determine which of the competing "truths" is THE TRUTH
The bible is true because it coforms to the reality of Gods existence and His dealings with us as human beings. Truth has to have a match up with what is actual or real. Otherwise it is not true. Let me ask you a question. Do you think reality can be shaped anyway you want?
Interesting take, similar to the atheism = religion argument. I suppose if one were to say "there is no way that your "truth" can be TRUTH, I might agree with you. It goes back for me to theory vs. practice. In theory truth can be determined, in practice I haven't seen it done.
I did say that. To say no one can know God in such a way as to invalidate what someone else beliefs--is wrong. I also said it is a religion unto itself. Now, because you Oakspear have not seen truth determined--means what? It has never been determined?
Not at all. All that it presupposes is that no one has come up with an objective verifiable measurament of that "knowing".
You just proved my point. You would have to know all to seriously make this statement--How the universe is wired--the ins and outs of God--if there is a God. . . To make this statement--you would have to know truth--the actual reality that there is no objective verifiable measure--
You just proved my point. You would have to know all to seriously make this statement--How the universe is wired--the ins and outs of God--if there is a God. . . To make this statement--you would have to know truth--the actual reality that there is no objective verifiable measure--
Bingo! Now hold that same standard to yourself. To think that the god that you have faith in, which is based on your own subjective experiences and POV, is absolute and universal, you would have to know everything, the ins and outs of the ways of God. That is, of course, if there is a god and if there is only one God and if there is not another universe of gods and if there is not a race of intelligent machines that has us in a virtual existence feeding off our juices and if there is not an alien race that controls us telepathically across light years of space and time etc etc. The number of unverifiable possibilities exceeds our ability to imagine them.
The bible is true because it coforms to the reality of Gods existence and His dealings with us as human beings.
How can you possibly know the scope of the reality of God's existence and how the Bible conforms to it and how this God deals with human beings without knowing everything? And, if you only know it in part, couldn't the parts that you don't know be rather significant given the presumed scope of God? Couldn't those unknown aspects amount to something greater or lesser or different than the absolute and universal beliefs that you hold?
Lindy - I think the wonderful thing about the way this discussion is going is that each party is talking about what they do or do not believe.
Geisha is speaking to the doctrine she has internalized. While I read a lot of "this is what I believe," I don't read a lot of "so you should believe the same as I do or you're damned to hell."
It's interesting to me that the thread turned from "The Law of Believing" to "What I believe..."
IMHO- this is a much better thread for the change.
I see there being no law at all nothing but a loving Father who will do what he can if we let him by stepping back and letting God work with trust with is faith which believing all is better
Isn't that a law in itself?
but I see no variables because one person can asked with great faith, another person with poor faith but God with help both to the same level because both and the end will get healed
I have seen this too. Maybe I am wrong to try to find answers, but what I read in the Bible is not what I find in the church, and I have a problem with that.
Bingo! Now hold that same standard to yourself. To think that the god that you have faith in, which is based on your own subjective experiences and POV, is absolute and universal, you would have to know everything, the ins and outs of the ways of God. That is, of course, if there is a god and if there is only one God and if there is not another universe of gods and if there is not a race of intelligent machines that has us in a virtual existence feeding off our juices and if there is not an alien race that controls us telepathically across light years of space and time etc etc. The number of unverifiable possibilities exceeds our ability to imagine them.
This is why I don't engage in apologetics. I never said my faith was based on subjective experiences or POV. In fact, I have articulated that my Faith is in the person of Jesus Christ. God to Christians minus The Way, Mormons, Moonies, JehovasWitnesses and the cast of Fraggle Rock. He is --as you have heard before--the way the truth and the life--I don't have to know everything-I know Him. I am hesitant to use that term here, because it has been bandied about like a blunt instrument. As for the rest of your argument, I will let that stand on its own merit.
How can you possibly know the scope of the reality of God's existence and how the Bible conforms to it and how this God deals with human beings without knowing everything? And, if you only know it in part, couldn't the parts that you don't know be rather significant given the presumed scope of God? Couldn't those unknown aspects amount to something greater or lesser or different than the absolute and universal beliefs that you hold?
LindyHopper, you know what the bible is about. It is not a cookbook? Again, I don't have to know everything to know truth. I know Christ. Yes, I am positive there are things I don't yet understand about God. However, Jesus came to show us God. To reveal Him.
I would never presume to damn someone to hell, or tell them they are headed there. I am no evangelist--I do enjoy reading D.L Moody and Charles Spurgeon though.
It is a doctrinal thread and I have shared my faith--not judged you for yours or lack thereof. In fact, I didn't believe for quite awhile after TWI although I went through the motions. So, I might actually be able to empathize with you--without trying to convert you and possibly relate to you on a unique level. If you can get past my faith in Christ and belief in the bible--if you are not too busy being tolerant of everyones right to choose their path.
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geisha779
Hi Invisible Dan You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction. Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar." I have
geisha779
Hi Oakspear, Badgering me? I hardly see your discussion as such!! I had better be able to tell you WHY I believe the bible is true, and correct in its declarations of God. That it is His declaration
geisha779
Again--missing my point. I truly understand why. I could once show you scholarship for The Myth of the 6 Million. I bet you, that at one time, if not believed it-----you seriously considered it.
geisha779
Hi,
To agree with you, I would have to presuppose that those who strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocents are martyrs for their faith. That is a supposition I cannot prescribe too. I do dare call it murder/suicide though.
The two cannot be equated. Not without rationalization.
Again, I am no good at apolegtics. It would take someone with far more knowledge and intellect to explain the difference between the Koran and the Bible--the essence of God and the Power of the Holy Spirit.
I can quote John14:6 to you ad nauseum, but why? You know it as well as I. I assume you have read your bible. That is one assumption about ex-way I feel safe in making. :)
What I would like to say to you is that our experiences in the Way were abusive and detremental to our spiritual well-being. That is my opinion.
However, if you at some point begin to thrist for more or a different relationship with God (I always want more) it is not only possible--it is a given He will welcome you.
Please notice, I did not assume your spiritual life now is void. I don't know that. I don't judge that-I would just encourage you to listen to any tug or pull that you might feel on your heart.
I am no brain--I am a heart kinda gal. I have that (obnoxious to some) steadfast faith that Jesus is able to save to uttermost.
I would encourage you to read the same book I offered George--although I assume you are not an atheist. If he doesn't want it, I would happily send it on to you! Along with my very best.
I feel a real kinship with ex-way. Who else would believe the stories we can tell!! Rather shocking to the average ear!
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Abigail
In my early days with TWI I was discouraged from taking care of my mother, who was dying of cancer. No one told me flat out not to take care of her (though my husband was pretty unhappy about me doing it and no one from TWI offered an assistance or support). I took care of her anyway, in a hospital bed, in her livingroom, with the help of my sister, my grandmother, and the mother of my sister's boyfriend (who never even met my mom until she was very near the end).
A few years later, as my grandmother was undergoing surgery, I was busy taking a class. I should have been at her side at the hospital, but the all important class . . . A few days later I got a call from my sister-in-law telling me my Uncle was withdrawing life support and I should come right away. I dropped out of the class and drove as fast as I could to Detroit, but by the time I arrived it was too late.
If I had it to do over again, I would have spent those last few days at h er bedside.
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RumRunner
Not bad Geisha - not bad at all... Keep posting.
Best,
RR
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Abigail
And this is probably my biggest problem with organized religion - the tendency to focus on the differences. For a while, a number of us (Christian, Jew, Pagan, etc.) spent quite a bit of time down here in the doctrinal forum exploring our similarities. What I found is, we have far more in common than you might imagine. In fact, if you remove the labels/names and traditional rituals, you would find there aren't many differences at all.
Ah, but if the martyrs were Christians and they were blowing up innocents in the name of a holy war???? If they were killing off the Jews and heretics as was done in the 1400 - 1500's? If they were killing off Native Americans and forcing their children to convert to Christianity???
Perspective.
I'm not condoning suicide bombers, mind you. Likewise, I don't condone things which have been done in the name of Christianity.
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geisha779
I would respectfully disagree with you. I do believe that absolute truth can be known.
However, I also think that the belief system that says no one can know truth in such a way as to invalidate someone elses beliefs is wrong, and is in itself religious.
It has its own affirmations--doctrines--and denials.
To say that God cannot be known at all presupposes that the one saying this knows all. Which is what saying our beliefs are similar fosters.
Why is it that a broken, unworthy, sinful, repentent Christian who dogmatically holds fast to Jesus and the bible is arrogant?
While the "All paths lead to God-tolerant-we are more alike than different" relativist disciple is enlightened? This system uses absolutes to say there are none.
As much as I can love you, I cannot agree with you. I am positive there is no other way but that of Jesus crucified, buried, and risen.
With His refining work to follow. It is hardwired into me.
I am unflappable. Therefore, by many standards arrogant and unenlightened.
I surely do not mean to sound harsh, but I am steadfast. Not because I see myself as morally superior, in fact I know that I am not, I am broken, sinful, and
unworthy to stand before a Holy God. That is why I cleave to Jesus. I don't judge those who believe other than I---not my job or inclination. I just don't find
common ground and build from there. Faith in Christ is what it is.
Ah, but if the martyrs were Christians and they were blowing up innocents in the name of a holy war???? If they were killing off the Jews and heretics as was done in the 1400 - 1500's? If they were killing off Native Americans and forcing their children to convert to Christianity???
Well, if someone did do that in the name of Christianity it would not be anything to do with Christ. We are called to love. Not just our friends which is easy, but our enemies. I am called to love Hindus-Muslims, Jews, Pagans and on we go. To feed the poor, comfort the sick and to give of myself to the point of selling what I have to give if need be. No matter their faith.
I said before that I could cite countless things done in the name of Jesus that are chilling. I would argue that He had nothing to do with them. He healed all that He met who were in need--denied no one--and still desires all to come to Him. What man does, in His name to cause harm--is man doing it. This includes many of the things said and done by evangelicals today. I have very little respect for most modern day American evangelicals-who distort the simple beauty of the gospel with politics, protests, and televangelism.
The Gospel message is a heart-wrenching beautiful love story--written by a God who desires you and paid a precious price to redeem you.
That is what makes Jesus so unique
You and I and this entire universe groan and travail and wait--I wonder you don't feel it?
Abigal--my best to you.
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George Aar
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Bramble
I truly don't feel what you feel geisha. I think absolutist beliefs, one way for all mankind, lead to strife, division and break down of community and family, because it only works when every one agrees. If one changes, they become 'other', not like me, wrong, and that changes all kinds of relationships and actions between people, and when taken far enough by an individual or society, lead to enmity.
Finding commonalities, building bridges, not seeing other religions as 'not right people'--and I believe it does lead to that--is ultimately destructive. I believe tolerance of difference is healthy.
I do have hope, but my hope is that more and more that people will awaken to see if their choices build or ruin.
We all have the freedom to pick our beliefs, and we can all evaluate the places they lead to as best we can.
As far as absolute truth can be known--shrug--Christians don't have a one, definative doctrine, so it seems that that is not so. Perhaps the God knows the one truth, but humans do not.
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doojable
I've avoided the Doctrinal Forum for a long time... long story.
But this thread keeps calling to me. I'm not sure I really have much to add - just my thoughts as I read.
I think that every belief has an 'inner work" that needs to happen before any real "outreach" (I hate to use that word, but I can't think of another that fits) even can be possible.
When you truly believe something- you act accordingly. No one really has to tell you what to do or say and you don't necessarily need to 'witness' (ouch! again) for your beliefs to be evident.
Maybe it's a sign of maturity when a person doesn't feel the desperate need to have everyone believe as he or she does. I'm sure that there are as many different "religions" as there are people- because every person has their way in which they have internalized their beliefs into a "working theory." At some point in time there is no more need for a "club." The man or woman may choose to hang out with people who have similar beliefs- but the inner demand for a carbon copy of each and every precept is no longer there. The sense of "us against them" is gone. The "war" has subsided.
Now discussion is possible. Now the haughty "let me teach you!" element is gone.
Hope this makes sense...of course it really has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
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Bumpy
For centuries, Hindu women have worn a dot on their foreheads.
Most of us have naively thought this was connected with marriage or religion, but the Indian Embassy in Washington , D.C. has recently revealed the true story.
When a Hindu woman gets married, she brings a dowry into the union.
On her wedding night, the husband scratches off the dot to see whether he has won a convenience store, a gas station, a donut shop or a motel in the United States .
If nothing is there, he must take a job in India answering telephones at AOL giving technical advice.
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Oakspear
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George Aar
Isn't what really is being presupposed here, is that there IS a God to begin with?
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Caveman
Go away for a few days and look what happens
It sounds like you may be a part of Bob Mathieson's ministry, http://www.outreachofgodsword.com/ I was for a while, but they are too far away. I neded to get involved with someone locally before I could raise up to my calling.
Don't worry about it. I'm just trying to get their dander up.
I've been successful.
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Oakspear
Self edited to avoid engaging a nitwit in discussion.
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Abigail
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Bumpy
...or possibly two (2), two mints in one.
http://www.quantumlounge.com/data/hell.htm
I posted this I think once before, but since we're debating GOD...well... I thought now that George Carlin has GONE that maybe some people might need a l a u g h...?? I don't know, you cult people live on a strange street corner.
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Bramble
(Context:
Hi,
Somewhat confused here and please bear with me. What did I miss? People are demons? HUH?)
This would be a good example of the type of religion I consider destructive. There was no history of animosity here, just opinions calmly posted that Caveman disagreed with. This comment is not humorous or pithy. It tells much more about caveman than it does about Invisible Dan or Oakspear.
And just wait--Soon a believer holding this attitude will soon be whining about how Christians are disrespected on GSC. Oh woewizus, see how we get treated!
Will anyone get a clue???
Social skills, people.
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geisha779
Hi Abigal,
I really enjoyed your post-truly. My point was--I believe what I believe and that is unchangable. Because of my faith in Christ--FOR ME--He is All.
There is no other way to God--that actually is part of my faith. Perceiveable to many as intolerant. As such a steadfast believer, I can find no common ground on
issues of faith with those that don't accept Him as Savoir. To me, it is not just a belief--it is the fabric of who I now am. Does that make any sense? It is not just a
notion or an excerise in philosophy--it is my heart and my soul. It is how I live.
BUT--if I live it the way Jesus meant--I will love, not judge--I will serve, not take and I will strive to keep peace. There is no one of any other faith not welcome in
my home--with the exception of Satanist--who kinda scare me. Homosexuals --- atheists--- exway :) All welcome! I would never turn my back on anyone in need.
But, that is what I believe is expected of me as a follower of Christ. I long to serve others. Do you know what I mean? If it is lived right--it is an amazing thing.
I strive for this because I have been given a second chance--I am redeemed. That is my belief--confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit--but not TWI's version. LOL
You might actually like me if you met me. I don't always speak of matters of faith. This is a doctrinal forum and that is what we are talking about. LOL
I can party with the best of em--unless it is after 10:00pm. Then I start to fade. I sure would like to know how that happened?
Christians are no better than anyone else!!!!! I really mean that. In fact, think about it. To realize you need a Savoir--you have to see you are a sinner---that
is what brings us to the Cross. I know my shortcomings and they are plenty.
Hope this helps explain a bit. I do really like ex-way people. I mean--we picked a podunk cult--slogged through together and all landed in different places. We
share a unique experience. And as much as it irks me--it did, for a time, shape us. I still carry some scars from those days--actions resulting from a vapid system
of flagrant theology. Things I can never undo--you know what? I know you "get" that.
George:
Isn't "apathetic agnostic" redundant?:)
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geisha779
Hi Oakspear
For the sake of discussion I'll stipulate that it can. How then can you determine which of the competing "truths" is THE TRUTH
The bible is true because it coforms to the reality of Gods existence and His dealings with us as human beings. Truth has to have a match up with what is actual or real. Otherwise it is not true. Let me ask you a question. Do you think reality can be shaped anyway you want?
Interesting take, similar to the atheism = religion argument. I suppose if one were to say "there is no way that your "truth" can be TRUTH, I might agree with you. It goes back for me to theory vs. practice. In theory truth can be determined, in practice I haven't seen it done.
I did say that. To say no one can know God in such a way as to invalidate what someone else beliefs--is wrong. I also said it is a religion unto itself. Now, because you Oakspear have not seen truth determined--means what? It has never been determined?
Not at all. All that it presupposes is that no one has come up with an objective verifiable measurament of that "knowing".
You just proved my point. You would have to know all to seriously make this statement--How the universe is wired--the ins and outs of God--if there is a God. . . To make this statement--you would have to know truth--the actual reality that there is no objective verifiable measure--
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lindyhopper
Bingo! Now hold that same standard to yourself. To think that the god that you have faith in, which is based on your own subjective experiences and POV, is absolute and universal, you would have to know everything, the ins and outs of the ways of God. That is, of course, if there is a god and if there is only one God and if there is not another universe of gods and if there is not a race of intelligent machines that has us in a virtual existence feeding off our juices and if there is not an alien race that controls us telepathically across light years of space and time etc etc. The number of unverifiable possibilities exceeds our ability to imagine them.
How can you possibly know the scope of the reality of God's existence and how the Bible conforms to it and how this God deals with human beings without knowing everything? And, if you only know it in part, couldn't the parts that you don't know be rather significant given the presumed scope of God? Couldn't those unknown aspects amount to something greater or lesser or different than the absolute and universal beliefs that you hold?
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doojable
Lindy - I think the wonderful thing about the way this discussion is going is that each party is talking about what they do or do not believe.
Geisha is speaking to the doctrine she has internalized. While I read a lot of "this is what I believe," I don't read a lot of "so you should believe the same as I do or you're damned to hell."
It's interesting to me that the thread turned from "The Law of Believing" to "What I believe..."
IMHO- this is a much better thread for the change.
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Caveman
No, "demons."
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Caveman
People get upset because they take stuff too personal
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Caveman
Isn't that a law in itself?
I have seen this too. Maybe I am wrong to try to find answers, but what I read in the Bible is not what I find in the church, and I have a problem with that.
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geisha779
Lindyhopper,
Bingo! Now hold that same standard to yourself. To think that the god that you have faith in, which is based on your own subjective experiences and POV, is absolute and universal, you would have to know everything, the ins and outs of the ways of God. That is, of course, if there is a god and if there is only one God and if there is not another universe of gods and if there is not a race of intelligent machines that has us in a virtual existence feeding off our juices and if there is not an alien race that controls us telepathically across light years of space and time etc etc. The number of unverifiable possibilities exceeds our ability to imagine them.
This is why I don't engage in apologetics. I never said my faith was based on subjective experiences or POV. In fact, I have articulated that my Faith is in the person of Jesus Christ. God to Christians minus The Way, Mormons, Moonies, JehovasWitnesses and the cast of Fraggle Rock. He is --as you have heard before--the way the truth and the life--I don't have to know everything-I know Him. I am hesitant to use that term here, because it has been bandied about like a blunt instrument. As for the rest of your argument, I will let that stand on its own merit.
How can you possibly know the scope of the reality of God's existence and how the Bible conforms to it and how this God deals with human beings without knowing everything? And, if you only know it in part, couldn't the parts that you don't know be rather significant given the presumed scope of God? Couldn't those unknown aspects amount to something greater or lesser or different than the absolute and universal beliefs that you hold?
LindyHopper, you know what the bible is about. It is not a cookbook? Again, I don't have to know everything to know truth. I know Christ. Yes, I am positive there are things I don't yet understand about God. However, Jesus came to show us God. To reveal Him.
I would never presume to damn someone to hell, or tell them they are headed there. I am no evangelist--I do enjoy reading D.L Moody and Charles Spurgeon though.
It is a doctrinal thread and I have shared my faith--not judged you for yours or lack thereof. In fact, I didn't believe for quite awhile after TWI although I went through the motions. So, I might actually be able to empathize with you--without trying to convert you and possibly relate to you on a unique level. If you can get past my faith in Christ and belief in the bible--if you are not too busy being tolerant of everyones right to choose their path.
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