It isn't, so your hypothetical is going to be skewed if the "LOB" is the metric by which you're measuring the outcome, ie, did you believe, who believed, etc.
Right, it isn't a law as it was taught in PFAL, but it is based in truth. In order to be a good counterfeit it has to look like the genuine. Have you ever heard that before?
Secondly if believing is the key to receiving it as PFAL teaches, it stands to reason that the believing has to focus on the one doing the giving - Christ - and not the thing being received. He came so others can have life and life more abundanty - so Christ is the key. I am come that...there's a result, but there's no result without the cause.
This is another component, the crux actually, but there is still more.
The Law of Believing works for saint and sinner alike, according to PFAL.
It does, but if it is not through Christ, it is witchcraft.
Yes, whenever reality intruded on WayWorld dogma, a new revised requirement was trotted out to explain the apparent discrepancy. Just like any other religion.
"Why doesn't life work like it says in The Bible?"
"Well, actually it DOES! You just don't understand it yet!"
(This is sorta like the "blame the victim" game. You never admit to any lack on the part of the dogma, simply lay it all at the feet of the one asking the questions. Since there's certain to be gaps in anyone's knowledge, and the questioner no doubt is aware of this shortcoming of his already, you can just guilt him into acquiescing to the superiority of the Scriptures, without ever actually proving anything. A classic dodge, [or is it a Buick?])
You never admit to any lack on the part of the dogma...
That's part of the reason why I'm here. I know that there is lack in my "dogma" and I'm hoping that some of you guys can help me through it. I am, however, working from the prospective that God's Word is truth.
cman... concerning what you asked me in post #5. I have four children, 3 being red-headed boys who came into this world with a tornado strapped to their butt. At 27, 25 and 15 they have not changed much, thank God. They are energy in overdrive, mentally and physically. I can't say they have ever been rebellious. There has been trying times that caused us great concern to the point where this here mama spent many a night burning the midnight oil in prayer.
I can't say I have ever withheld a blessing. I don't know if that is even in my power. A child on the edge needs all the blessings they can get. And having worked in the public school system I am here to tell you some kids have never been given a break. I understand (after dealing with the parents, or more so lack of, because the parents are MIA) why the majority of these children are "disciplinary problems." These children always received my fullest attention. As far as disciplinary action of my own...I just take out a hickory and whoop the tar out of my young'ins. Just kidding.
This is how I equate it. I have taught Proverbs chapter one to my children from the day they were born. To me this explains how life works. I believe this information is in the first chapter for a reason. I don't see it working any different in this day and time. God doesn't do it to us. We choose it for ourselves. It is like, if you choose to follow the evil, he is gonna do this to you. If you follow me this is what I can do for you and with you. He tells us, HERE I AM!! CHOOSE ME!!! Choose life. The same with my children. I am not going to do anything to you. You will do it to yourself. If they speak disrespectfully to me they know beforehand what is the consequence. They choose it when they choose the behavior. They know what kind of life they will be living. This way they learn to discipline themselves. They are in control of their life.
Father is the same with His children. We choose. He lays it all out so simply. He never removes Himself from us but we may choose to remove ourself from Him. But He is still our Father. Grace abounds. I know how gracious and forgiving Father has been with me in my many times mucked up life I chose. My children do not deserve any less. And for that matter nor does anyone else I know or come in contact with on a daily basis.....just how I live and look at things.
What is available? What is available in the Word of God?
The "law of believing" is only worthwhile to discuss here, from the standpoint of it being a point of doctrine in PFAL and the Way and even then it's of limited value to devote much time looking into it. For me, it's wasted time to devote any more time to it. That's not meant to condemn anyone's interest, just meant to say that for me, there is none. For those who still have work they feel need to do on it and that's of value to them - go in peace, friends.
i never noticed that link at the bottom of his posts... (where's that little icon that slaps himself in the forehead and says "duh"... LOL)
thank you for finding mark's site for me!
actually, it's the very last article on the home page... it's titled "the abundant life"... you have to scroll all the way to the bottom (it's hiding... LOL)... i don't agree with everything on mark's site, but this article is on target, very well done, and very detailed...
caveman,
the "law of believing" IS witchcraft... God will not allow Himself to be manipulated like that...
and i don't know about questioning "prospectives",but i accept the Word of God as Truth...
The "law of believing" is to the TWI lifestyle what special effects are to the movies - a clever illusion to (sell the big picture). For sheer entertainment value it's cost-effective, providing a cheap and easy way to escape from reality... sometimes for years on end. Special effects may vary, depending on one's "believing".
...and might I add...FUNDAMENTAL IN FOUNDATIONAL CLASS BS101 OF SEPARATING YOU FROM YOUR M O N E Y !! <_<
Have you ever seriously questioned this "prospective"?
I have.
Or what God's Word is. Or what is means.
So many things that try to slip by un noticed.
I know there are so many questions yet to ask myself.
After being pounded with someone's idea.
I question every thing I think of to question.
Questions are good. I think God intends for us to question. As long as we have questions we don't get into that know-it-all attitude we had so many years ago. Knowledge puffs up: Love edifies.
came into this world with a tornado strapped to their butt.
Sounds like my second son.
I can't say I have ever withheld a blessing.
By withholding a blessing what I meant was to not give the keys to the family car because of the way he drives, or because he came home drunk the last time or not lettint a younger child go out to play when he did not do his chores.
As far as disciplinary action of my own...I just take out a hickory and whoop the tar out of my young'ins. Just kidding.
But that's the general idea. Get their attention. I believe that God does that with us and sometimes it takes a hickory switch when the lighter attention getters just don't get our attention. Rebellion is written into the sin nature and when we are corrected we tend to look at as abuse even when it is not.
I'm not saying, of course, that there is not much abuse going on, but not all correction is abuse.
God doesn't do it to us. We choose it for ourselves. It is like, if you choose to follow the evil, he is gonna do this to you. If you follow me this is what I can do for you and with you. He tells us, HERE I AM!! CHOOSE ME!!! Choose life. The same with my children. I am not going to do anything to you. You will do it to yourself. If they speak disrespectfully to me they know beforehand what is the consequence. They choose it when they choose the behavior. They know what kind of life they will be living. This way they learn to discipline themselves. They are in control of their life.
Father is the same with His children. We choose. He lays it all out so simply. He never removes Himself from us but we may choose to remove ourself from Him.
That's what I'm saying
But He is still our Father. Grace abounds. I know how gracious and forgiving Father has been with me in my many times mucked up life I chose. My children do not deserve any less. And for that matter nor does anyone else I know or come in contact with on a daily basis
I look at the chastizment of the Lord as training. He does not give us the full extent of what we deserve. He teaches us. We have the choice to learn or rebell. Even in our rebellion, his grace abounds. He has been so very patient with me. I have rebelled and rebelled, yet he selcomes me back with open arms, and not only that -- He watches for my return.
the "law of believing" IS witchcraft... God will not allow Himself to be manipulated like that...
The problem is that we were taught that faith was wrong. God does not allow himself to be manipulated, yet he stands by His Word. Healing belongs to us. (I Pet 2:24b) When we tell a broken arm to be healed, we are not manipulating God. What we are doing is exercising the power that God has given to us, that we can tell the devil to get lost. If we meet the conditions that God has proscribed in his Word, we will gain the promises that he has promised to us for meeting those conditions. But, if we try to believe for them without meeting the conditions, or if we try to believe for something that is not promised, that is witchcraft.
There is a fine line in there. We need to search for it.
with all due respect, there is no "fine line" that i need to search for... i outright reject all variations of the "law of believing"... (check out mark's article)
faith is different from the "believing" we were taught... faith is SIMPLE TRUST in God...
i have experienced PLENTY of healings, but they all happened via a REQUEST (a petition, if you will) to God, and NOT with the attitude that i have some sort of power that needs to be released IF i meet certain "conditons", and IF i believe correctly, and IF i "exercise" power, and IF i work my mind to get it in some kind of "believing" state, and IF i know about this "fine line" and where to find it, etc. etc.
that is quite a burden to lay upon someone..
No, i simply asked God and TRUSTED in Him and His power...
It's a matter of prospective, I guess. To me if I trust God, that is believing, however there is something different about it. When my broken arm was healed I had a totally different mindset than I normally do. I knew it was going to be healed, yet I was scared at the same time because I couldn't afford a broken arm.
I talk about what I believe as if it were gospel, but the truth is that I don't have it figured out. I'm here to learn more. I believe that when we pray for healing, it should happen 100% of the time, and if it doesn't then something is wrong. Maybe it's a problem with the person being healed. Maybe it's a problem with the person praying. Maybe it's a problem with someone else in the room. Maybe it's a lack of "trust." Maybe it's some sin that one of us is hiding. Maybe it's some other thing. If there is an answer, I want to find it.
When Peter and John healed the lame man at the temple in Acts 3, they didn't pray for him. If they did there is no record of it. They just told him to get up. What's up with that? That sounds like authority to me.
I believe that when we pray for healing, it should happen 100% of the time, and if it doesn't then something is wrong.
caveman,
i think your premise is flawed...
the "something" that is wrong is that we are born with sin nature into a fallen world...
if healing happened 100% of the time, then no one would ever physically die...
of course, Jesus has solved this problem by coming into the world, living a sinless life, and offering Himself as the perfect sacrifice in order to redeem us to God... we are so VERY close to the time of the fulfillment of the redemption of the purchased possession... so look up, for your redemption draws nigh!... the Kinsman Redeemer will be here soon!
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geisha779
Hi Invisible Dan You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction. Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar." I have
geisha779
Hi Oakspear, Badgering me? I hardly see your discussion as such!! I had better be able to tell you WHY I believe the bible is true, and correct in its declarations of God. That it is His declaration
geisha779
Again--missing my point. I truly understand why. I could once show you scholarship for The Myth of the 6 Million. I bet you, that at one time, if not believed it-----you seriously considered it.
Caveman
Right, it isn't a law as it was taught in PFAL, but it is based in truth. In order to be a good counterfeit it has to look like the genuine. Have you ever heard that before?
This is another component, the crux actually, but there is still more.
It does, but if it is not through Christ, it is witchcraft.
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George Aar
Yes, whenever reality intruded on WayWorld dogma, a new revised requirement was trotted out to explain the apparent discrepancy. Just like any other religion.
"Why doesn't life work like it says in The Bible?"
"Well, actually it DOES! You just don't understand it yet!"
(This is sorta like the "blame the victim" game. You never admit to any lack on the part of the dogma, simply lay it all at the feet of the one asking the questions. Since there's certain to be gaps in anyone's knowledge, and the questioner no doubt is aware of this shortcoming of his already, you can just guilt him into acquiescing to the superiority of the Scriptures, without ever actually proving anything. A classic dodge, [or is it a Buick?])
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Caveman
That's part of the reason why I'm here. I know that there is lack in my "dogma" and I'm hoping that some of you guys can help me through it. I am, however, working from the prospective that God's Word is truth.
(I'd rather have the Buick.)
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TheInvisibleDan
Have you ever seriously questioned this "prospective"?
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cman
Or what God's Word is. Or what is means.
So many things that try to slip by un noticed.
I know there are so many questions yet to ask myself.
After being pounded with someone's idea.
I question every thing I think of to question.
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kimberly
cman... concerning what you asked me in post #5. I have four children, 3 being red-headed boys who came into this world with a tornado strapped to their butt. At 27, 25 and 15 they have not changed much, thank God. They are energy in overdrive, mentally and physically. I can't say they have ever been rebellious. There has been trying times that caused us great concern to the point where this here mama spent many a night burning the midnight oil in prayer.
I can't say I have ever withheld a blessing. I don't know if that is even in my power. A child on the edge needs all the blessings they can get. And having worked in the public school system I am here to tell you some kids have never been given a break. I understand (after dealing with the parents, or more so lack of, because the parents are MIA) why the majority of these children are "disciplinary problems." These children always received my fullest attention. As far as disciplinary action of my own...I just take out a hickory and whoop the tar out of my young'ins. Just kidding.
This is how I equate it. I have taught Proverbs chapter one to my children from the day they were born. To me this explains how life works. I believe this information is in the first chapter for a reason. I don't see it working any different in this day and time. God doesn't do it to us. We choose it for ourselves. It is like, if you choose to follow the evil, he is gonna do this to you. If you follow me this is what I can do for you and with you. He tells us, HERE I AM!! CHOOSE ME!!! Choose life. The same with my children. I am not going to do anything to you. You will do it to yourself. If they speak disrespectfully to me they know beforehand what is the consequence. They choose it when they choose the behavior. They know what kind of life they will be living. This way they learn to discipline themselves. They are in control of their life.
Father is the same with His children. We choose. He lays it all out so simply. He never removes Himself from us but we may choose to remove ourself from Him. But He is still our Father. Grace abounds. I know how gracious and forgiving Father has been with me in my many times mucked up life I chose. My children do not deserve any less. And for that matter nor does anyone else I know or come in contact with on a daily basis.....just how I live and look at things.
What is available? What is available in the Word of God?
Blessings.
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socks
My Take - in a nutshell:
The "law of believing" is only worthwhile to discuss here, from the standpoint of it being a point of doctrine in PFAL and the Way and even then it's of limited value to devote much time looking into it. For me, it's wasted time to devote any more time to it. That's not meant to condemn anyone's interest, just meant to say that for me, there is none. For those who still have work they feel need to do on it and that's of value to them - go in peace, friends.
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cman
kimberly,
you must br speaking of Caveman
he did post #5
no prob though....
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jen-o
thanks waysider!
i never noticed that link at the bottom of his posts... (where's that little icon that slaps himself in the forehead and says "duh"... LOL)
thank you for finding mark's site for me!
actually, it's the very last article on the home page... it's titled "the abundant life"... you have to scroll all the way to the bottom (it's hiding... LOL)... i don't agree with everything on mark's site, but this article is on target, very well done, and very detailed...
caveman,
the "law of believing" IS witchcraft... God will not allow Himself to be manipulated like that...
and i don't know about questioning "prospectives",but i accept the Word of God as Truth...
peace,
jen-o
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Bumpy
...and might I add...FUNDAMENTAL IN FOUNDATIONAL CLASS BS101 OF SEPARATING YOU FROM YOUR M O N E Y !! <_<
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Caveman
I have.
Questions are good. I think God intends for us to question. As long as we have questions we don't get into that know-it-all attitude we had so many years ago. Knowledge puffs up: Love edifies.
Sounds like my second son.
By withholding a blessing what I meant was to not give the keys to the family car because of the way he drives, or because he came home drunk the last time or not lettint a younger child go out to play when he did not do his chores.
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Caveman
But that's the general idea. Get their attention. I believe that God does that with us and sometimes it takes a hickory switch when the lighter attention getters just don't get our attention. Rebellion is written into the sin nature and when we are corrected we tend to look at as abuse even when it is not.
I'm not saying, of course, that there is not much abuse going on, but not all correction is abuse.
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Caveman
That's what I'm saying
I look at the chastizment of the Lord as training. He does not give us the full extent of what we deserve. He teaches us. We have the choice to learn or rebell. Even in our rebellion, his grace abounds. He has been so very patient with me. I have rebelled and rebelled, yet he selcomes me back with open arms, and not only that -- He watches for my return.
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waysider
"You want to know what killed that little boy? I'll tell you what killed that little boy, a 1935 Buick Roadmaster."
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Caveman
There is a fine line in there. We need to search for it.
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Caveman
What a beautiful car! I am an old car buff, but I don't think that's a 35. I think it's a 39 or maybe a 38. Here is a 1935 Buick Roadmaster.
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jen-o
hi caveman,
with all due respect, there is no "fine line" that i need to search for... i outright reject all variations of the "law of believing"... (check out mark's article)
faith is different from the "believing" we were taught... faith is SIMPLE TRUST in God...
i have experienced PLENTY of healings, but they all happened via a REQUEST (a petition, if you will) to God, and NOT with the attitude that i have some sort of power that needs to be released IF i meet certain "conditons", and IF i believe correctly, and IF i "exercise" power, and IF i work my mind to get it in some kind of "believing" state, and IF i know about this "fine line" and where to find it, etc. etc.
that is quite a burden to lay upon someone..
No, i simply asked God and TRUSTED in Him and His power...
peace,
jen-o
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Caveman
It's a matter of prospective, I guess. To me if I trust God, that is believing, however there is something different about it. When my broken arm was healed I had a totally different mindset than I normally do. I knew it was going to be healed, yet I was scared at the same time because I couldn't afford a broken arm.
I talk about what I believe as if it were gospel, but the truth is that I don't have it figured out. I'm here to learn more. I believe that when we pray for healing, it should happen 100% of the time, and if it doesn't then something is wrong. Maybe it's a problem with the person being healed. Maybe it's a problem with the person praying. Maybe it's a problem with someone else in the room. Maybe it's a lack of "trust." Maybe it's some sin that one of us is hiding. Maybe it's some other thing. If there is an answer, I want to find it.
When Peter and John healed the lame man at the temple in Acts 3, they didn't pray for him. If they did there is no record of it. They just told him to get up. What's up with that? That sounds like authority to me.
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Caveman
Moved text into above post
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kimberly
Cman, I stand corrected. I forget the names. I guess I am so consumed with the content that I get hibbly scribbly with all the names.
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TheInvisibleDan
Question: Is Jesus all that he's cracked up to be?
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jen-o
invisible dan,
obviously, you don't know Him...
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jen-o
caveman,
i think your premise is flawed...
the "something" that is wrong is that we are born with sin nature into a fallen world...
if healing happened 100% of the time, then no one would ever physically die...
of course, Jesus has solved this problem by coming into the world, living a sinless life, and offering Himself as the perfect sacrifice in order to redeem us to God... we are so VERY close to the time of the fulfillment of the redemption of the purchased possession... so look up, for your redemption draws nigh!... the Kinsman Redeemer will be here soon!
peace,
jen-o
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TheInvisibleDan
Unfortunately, I think I've gotten to know him all too well.
Much ado has been made on our cult experiences of having been railed upon by zealous leaders for our "lack of believing" or lack of "faith".
But is there really any significant difference throughout the gospels (esp. "Mark") in the manner Jesus rebukes his own disciples for the same?
When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction.
Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar.
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