BTW. . . Did you actually imply Jesus was gay? Or did I misread that?
I might suggest that Jesus Christ is the one who judges what sacred love is, not other saints.
I am confused and wonder what qualifies Jesus to judge whether homosexuality is sacred?
Who is Jesus? A man whom orthodoxy says, never married, a man that the gnostics say, had a child with Magdalene and yes, he gathered twelve men and not one of them, not even Peter, felt free to, "agape" him. Then the world murdered Jesus Christ (like Matthew Shepherd) and has used it ever since to condemn homosexuals.
Is that logical? Is that the "message of Christ", is that the "good news"?
Funny you should mention Matthew Shepherd. . . I met his mom when she gave a speech here. I never heard her liken the death of her son to the crucifixion of Christ, she could have at some point in time, but I never heard it.
Did you ever notice that the bible tells us to confess Jesus as Lord? We don't make Him Lord. . . He already is. . . we confess Him as Lord. That is who He is. . . . Lord of All( Acts 10:36)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Comment: Is celibacy "knowing no sin"... Or was fathering a child out of wedlock with Magdalene, knowing no sin, Or maybe it was just gathering and hanging out with twelve dudes constantly talking about "love" that gives him his sinless character?
Funny you should mention Matthew Shepherd. . . I met his mom when she gave a speech here. I never heard her liken the death of her son to the crucifixion of Christ, she could have at some point in time, but I never heard it.
Matthew Shepherd was martyred whether he was Christian or not.
What is the price of a homosexual human life?
The meek shall inherit the earth.
I might also add that Jesus says heterosexuals (and not just homosexuals) will not go to heaven either... Apparently Jesus believed there was no differentiation of sex in heaven. Like the angels...
My point is that people don’t think these biblical doctrines “throughly”…
Matthew 22:30 KJV
For in the resurrection they neither marry , nor are given in marriage , but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:25 KJV
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry , nor are given in marriage ; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Comment: I guess heterosexuals just "forget" 60 some years of love and marriage when they get to heaven.
Where is the "hope" in that?
Maybe people can still fornicate outside the gates of paradise. (cynical)
Did you ever notice that the bible tells us to confess Jesus as Lord? We don't make Him Lord. . . He already is. . . we confess Him as Lord. That is who He is. . . . Lord of All( Acts 10:36)
I thank you for making this seemingly insignificant but actually vital distinction.
True, Christ Jesus is the lord even though people may have been taught differently.
But to confess something is to believe what we say. What is it that we believe that qualifies one in our own heart to be lord of our life? There needs to be sufficient verity of truth.
Is it blind submission or should our confession be the collective idea of gnosis?
Do we receive the spirit out of a simple small ‘b’ belief and over time develop a big ‘B’ Belief and what of when we spend our whole lives confessing him as lord and we in the end, end up hating homosexuals, hating those who have not come to our own conclusions and just as confused as to what God's will really is?
Was it worth his putting so much FAITH into something that ultimately led us into a radical eccentric form of terror?
I believe Jesus Christ is the lord of creation as God is the Creator of creation but I still have not come unto a "knowledge of the truth"...
Truth is more elusive than God.
e⋅lu⋅sive –adjective
1. eluding clear perception or complete mental grasp; hard to express or define: an elusive concept.
2. cleverly or skillfully evasive: a fish too elusive to catch.
Romans 7:19 KJV
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do .
Is it really possible to derive truth from ambiguity?
Is ambiguity simple?
Does truth change when knowledge changes?
If relative truth changes with knowledge then is ultimate truth merely an ideal bound for egregious error?
So we girt our loins with ambiguity and our hearts with ambiguity and we run the race with ambiguity for the ambiguous prize that may or may not exist in the way we perceive it.
1 Corinthians 8:1 KJV
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up , but charity edifieth .
Comment: Can charity exist without a conscious mind? Can charity exist outside of the knowledge of God?
Romans 1:11.For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established ;
12.That is , that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13.Now I would not have you ignorant , brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto ,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14.I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Comment: This "spirtual gift" that Paul gave to Rome was to condemn homosexuals... So are all supposed to be comforted together in that "knowledge" that God hates homosexuals?
It this "truth"?
This is the good news? Are homosexuals liars who have deceived themselves with false imagination? Do Homosexuals dishonor their bodies with lust, unnatural, and they all hate God can’t stand thinking about God and then Paul lists homosexuals with every truly vile behavior he can rattle off…
And these "demons" which make homosexuals "unclean" have nothing to do with science but with this “spirit of truth” according to Paul and we are supposed to be “willing” servants to the laws he writes. We are supposed to also believe we are free from law at the same time.
Romans 19
19.Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Comment: So God said it and that settles it? Only a few know and Paul is one and he SINCERLY "thinks" what he has to says is the TRUTH.
Moses said that God personally told him also to stone to death homosexuals (with ham eaters too).
And the loving Christ Jesus of Paul the Apostle has the blood of homosexuals all over his pure white raiment.
1Corinthains 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Comment: More ambiguity...
Paul lays down the law then says there is no law.
So there is the ambiguity of the letter of the law versus the righteousness of the law.
And we are told the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets themselves then Paul contradicts himself and says he is not writing what he thinks but what the spirit tells him...
Heb 10:16 KJV
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Comment: Paul decides just in case the laws are not in the heart he will lay a few down anyway. Though knowledge “puffs up” a little knowledge about hating homosexuals is ok?
Are these God's laws or the laws of the prophet Paul?
Paul says he tells us these things so our lives won't be "grievous" but the only grief homosexuals get are from Paul’s "laws" that are used to persecute them…
So does the loving father give a gift which is a scorpion?
And whose heart has been "darkened" toward homosexuals?
And does this hatred for homosexuals make the hearts of "Christians" vain?
Orthodoxy is broken and the real lie is that homosexuality a sin.
The REAL truth is that if it were not for homosexuals, heterosexuals would have killed each other long ago.
It is the middle sex that has the TRUTH, compassion, tolerance.
Homosexuality is just as PURE as heterosexuality.
And again and so often the flat earth "words way" of the Bible is used to persecute a neighbor.
Science has proven that homosexuality is genetic and not a devil spirit.
It is a natural state of life that belongs through evolution between the sexes.
Orthodoxy has turned the sanctity of homosexuality into a lie, their hearts are hardened against homosexuals and they shall receive the recompense of that which is meet.
If I were to hate homosexuals through or by the gospel of Christ, I would be ashamed of that gospel.
Drwearword... I read everything you wrote and will consider it carefully ... I don't know if you are right or wrong and I am not as versed in the word as you are... I can see that this issue is extremely close to your heart....
I will add one thing which may or may not be correct or true or even close to the mark ... contradictions aparently are catching.... perhaps some of the translations of the KJV and thus succeding translations of scripture are influenced by the times they were written and ideas that were prevalent then...kind of a trickle down effect.
These things I do know about God and Christ....I love God... and I love Christ and I believe weither I am right or wrong.... that Christ was sent to save our souls... will I even want sex when I am in a spiritual form... I do not think so, but so many things ellude me... I think sex is a thing of the earth, something to encourage procreation and bonding between two humans..I do not know exactly what the answer is to all this... I have no doubt you find what I say feble as I have no scripture to back up how I feel... I don't hate homosexuals and I don't think if a person is homosexual they are damed.... I think there are many issues in this world that we as thick headed humans do not understand. Will we ever understand them??? I do not know but I do know that We as Christians (No matter your sexual orientation) are called to love and care for one another.. To strengthen each other and to be a beacon to those we meet in our every day lives.
I would hope that if we were to meet each other we could embrace each other with love acceptance and understanding.
Oh and Thanks for the scriptures you shared I will be spending some time reading them...
Drwearword... I read everything you wrote and will consider it carefully ... I don't know if you are right or wrong and I am not as versed in the word as you are... I can see that this issue is extremely close to your heart....
I will add one thing which may or may not be correct or true or even close to the mark ... contradictions aparently are catching.... perhaps some of the translations of the KJV and thus succeding translations of scripture are influenced by the times they were written and ideas that were prevalent then...kind of a trickle down effect.
These things I do know about God and Christ....I love God... and I love Christ and I believe weither I am right or wrong.... that Christ was sent to save our souls... will I even want sex when I am in a spiritual form... I do not think so, but so many things ellude me... I think sex is a thing of the earth, something to encourage procreation and bonding between two humans..I do not know exactly what the answer is to all this... I have no doubt you find what I say feble as I have no scripture to back up how I feel... I don't hate homosexuals and I don't think if a person is homosexual they are damed.... I think there are many issues in this world that we as thick headed humans do not understand. Will we ever understand them??? I do not know but I do know that We as Christians (No matter your sexual orientation) are called to love and care for one another.. To strengthen each other and to be a beacon to those we meet in our every day lives.
I would hope that if we were to meet each other we could embrace each other with love acceptance and understanding.
Oh and Thanks for the scriptures you shared I will be spending some time reading them...
I am surprised I am capable of reasoning beyond my own ambiguity to say, THANK YOU. :)
Your words are a blessing, I don't know if I believe my own words... my words must be ok because, "the devil has never written a book..."
Job 31:35
Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book.
Job 33:10
Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
All your questions and your searchings and concerns--they struck a chord in me. . . I want to ask you to just consider this. . . maybe truth is not a what---maybe it doesn't change and isn't so elusive . . . . because maybe truth is a who?
Absolute truth CAN be found. It is in the person of Jesus Christ. Remember, He told us this. . . I am the way--the truth and the life.
Truth is not a what. . . it is a who.
Truth is objective---not subjective. What is moral stems from that truth. Whether you agree or argue--there are moral absolutes--
One that you understand and I admire in you is that we are called to love. To hurt or hate in the name of God is wrong.
Hope you get some peace with your questions. Get to know the truth--He welcomes all who come to Him.
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2.For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3.So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4.Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5.For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6.But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Comment: If brethren are to marry Jesus and God and bring forth fruit... then, are God/Jesus feminine?
Do women have to become sons or be disinherited?
More ambiguity...
Song of Solomon 2:8 KJV
The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
Comment: Eros and Agape as lovers… And science says men have both an X and a Y chromosome.
Science says the X chromosome is much older than the Y chromosome which means God created a helpmate for Eve…
God took the X chromosome from Eve's rib and fashioned (mutated) a small part of the X chromosome into the Y chromosome and men were born knowing both good and evil.
Not only has the X chromosome remained stable for millions of years but the Y chromosome is deteriorating and mutating much more rapidly than the X chromosome which might indicate that the so called “original sin” may also not have been the woman’s doing.
Again the orthodoxy leaves us in spiritual ambiguity.
I don't now if truth is a person, a thing, an ideal, or dream than can never be realized.
Perhaps "truth" is my curse...
What of the ambiguity of biblical justice?
The first part of this story involves my neighbors.
Everyday sometime in the afternoon they start to go at it, “if you know what I mean.”
They are both a bit too old to be siring children so I know they are not "doing it" to procreate.
But every afternoon my whole living room begins to shake and I just sit there, even if I have guests over, I just scoff it off and say, oh well… and ignore it.
When I pass these neighbors in the hall, I do not look at them, funny, I am cordial and polite.
They do not know that as a homosexual man to me them having sex is tantamount to forcing a heterosexual to listen to gay people having sex. Yet still, I tolerate and accept it, as I withhold judgment.
Here is my second story…
My sister told me that her husband is lonely…
She says he only gets to see her at night when she gets home from work and they hardly get to spend three or four days a week together…
Now here is my third story…
I lived on and off with a man for seven years (not one year) and after seven years we realized we cared enough for each other to mutually enter into a moderately sexual relationship.
But it turned out he was not at all ready for "the relationship". So he began to weep and torment himself…
He told me I was his only LOVER and he left me... with a promise of fidelity…
Seven more years went by… in that seven years we were intimate about seven times, each time it ended in tears, self torment and him running out on me. We would both go back to celibacy and, a wanting, that could drive a “normal“ person to wrath. I knew where he went to live when he was not with me and I knew he lived alone without any other lover.
There were no wedding bells and no family support. I have a big family and none of my siblings have ever met him, let alone, they don’t even probably really know or recall me saying his name, though I have many times.
Eventually the mental guilt this man had to bear became too great and we do not see each other anymore.
To be touched affectionately only seven times in seven years is due to the stigma, the fear and shame that is imposed on homosexuals by what many call, “the truth”…
So while my neighbors fornicate everyday and my sister’s husband is so lonely because she is gone a few hours, I do really still try to find compassion, concern, acceptance and tolerance.
I have lived in moderation, I have placed monogamy and even near celibacy (that "burns" like hell) at the top of my list of virtues for so long, yet, it was still, not enough…
And where is the justice in that?
Song of Solomon 2:10 KJV
My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
Pslams 85:10.Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Luke 22:47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
If Solomon had wisdom he certainly wrote it within the song of songs.
This is how I interpret the song of songs.
I see that there are three songs in the song of songs.
One song is from the perspective of a female lover, another song is from the perspective of a male lover.
The third song is the song of the world who seek after this “love”.
God is not mentioned in the song of songs.
Jesus, according to orthodoxy, never had sex so why sexual language will be used to describe future heavenly events when angels don’t marry is also a peculiarity.
So the wisdom of the song of songs is that Eros is used in the same poem.
You have to be bisexual to enjoy the poem…
Some guy is talking about his rod and the woman is talking about her orchard…
Then one wonders why is God not present when Eros is present between sacred lovers?
Again, the songs of songs does not mention God once.
One would think that God would be knit in the center of marriage and even sexual love. Thus is this emphasis by omission? Is Solomon’s wisdom not what is written but what is not written?
What is not written is God’s reaction to such lustful male on female eros. How many Christian’s read their bibles when they have intercourse?
This is hard to explain… other than maybe being blunt and saying what Solomon neglected to say…
That God must be bisexual.
How can God be in the middle of two heterosexual Christians while they make love and not desire them physically the same?
If God created both the male and female genitalia does that not present a dilemma, conflict of interest, internal conflict involving God’s own sexual identity?
So to question which sex God prefers is a taboo???
But I must be questioned and scrutinized?
For if you are a heterosexual male the song of songs will be half like reading female literature describing how sexy and virile men are, and if you are reading it and a heterosexual female then a large portion of the poem dwells on male sexual worship of the female. If you are homosexual you just flip half of it around... So while the world is watching these lovers prepare to fornicate, God is watching them too... and what kind of kick is God getting out of it all?
I will say, the answer simply leads to more ambiguity.
I don't now if truth is a person, a thing, an ideal, or dream than can never be realized.
Perhaps "truth" is my curse...
What of the ambiguity of biblical justice?
The first part of this story involves my neighbors.
Everyday sometime in the afternoon they start to go at it, “if you know what I mean.”
They are both a bit too old to be siring children so I know they are not "doing it" to procreate.
But every afternoon my whole living room begins to shake and I just sit there, even if I have guests over, I just scoff it off and say, oh well… and ignore it.
When I pass these neighbors in the hall, I do not look at them, funny, I am cordial and polite.
They do not know that as a homosexual man to me them having sex is tantamount to forcing a heterosexual to listen to gay people having sex. Yet still, I tolerate and accept it, as I withhold judgment.
Here is my second story…
My sister told me that her husband is lonely…
She says he only gets to see her at night when she gets home from work and they hardly get to spend three or four days a week together…
Now here is my third story…
I lived on and off with a man for seven years (not one year) and after seven years we realized we cared enough for each other to mutually enter into a moderately sexual relationship.
But it turned out he was not at all ready for "the relationship". So he began to weep and torment himself…
He told me I was his only LOVER and he left me... with a promise of fidelity…
Seven more years went by… in that seven years we were intimate about seven times, each time it ended in tears, self torment and him running out on me. We would both go back to celibacy and, a wanting, that could drive a “normal“ person to wrath. I knew where he went to live when he was not with me and I knew he lived alone without any other lover.
There were no wedding bells and no family support. I have a big family and none of my siblings have ever met him, let alone, they don’t even probably really know or recall me saying his name, though I have many times.
Eventually the mental guilt this man had to bear became too great and we do not see each other anymore.
To be touched affectionately only seven times in seven years is due to the stigma, the fear and shame that is imposed on homosexuals by what many call, “the truth”…
So while my neighbors fornicate everyday and my sister’s husband is so lonely because she is gone a few hours, I do really still try to find compassion, concern, acceptance and tolerance.
I have lived in moderation, I have placed monogamy and even near celibacy (that "burns" like hell) at the top of my list of virtues for so long, yet, it was still, not enough…
And where is the justice in that?
Song of Solomon 2:10 KJV
My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
Jesus invites us--"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
That rest is not to be found in our own understanding--in our own way. We rest in Him who is truth.
We are all right in our own sight. . . you, me, the neighbors. . . but there is no rest there. No peace and no enduring joy.
Dying to self is a painful process Dr. WW. . . to follow Him means sacrifice, it can mean denial of our own desires. . . . . but look what He offers us in return. . . Rest.
I understand your questions and I am sorry for your struggles--but there is a way. It is a narrow gate and it is filled with many troubles in this life as we are perfected. . . . but, it truly is an abundant life found in Him. . . Not money--not possesions--not prosperity--not even happiness which is fleeting, . . . no, it is an abundant life filled with the deep things of God. Peace, enduring Joy, Love untold, Hope, Rest, and security in Him.
Do we truly have faith in Him--enough to trust and lose our lives to gain them. Enough to sacrifice what He requires of us? Enough to pick up our own cross and follow Him?
Do we want to know Him as He is--or do we want to make Him what we think He should be? Do we love our own understanding more than Him? Or, do we love Him more than anything?
Not everyone really wants to know Him. . . as He truly is.
Here is a story I received this morning through the spirit of wisdom.
There were two homosexual males sleeping together in a bed. They were passionate life long lovers and lived each moment of their lives defined by their love for each other.
Suddenly the door to their bedchambers is kicked open and God walks in with a shotgun.
He throws an unfamiliar young woman to the floor and forces her to kneel at his feet.
The two startled lovers stand up and face God…
Then God points the shotgun at one of the male lovers and then moves the shotgun between him and the unfamiliar young woman and says to the other man, CHOOSE!
I will not supply an ending to this dilemma for you. You have to supply that ending yourself...
Here is a story I received this morning through the spirit of wisdom.
There were two homosexual males sleeping together in a bed. They were passionate life long lovers and lived each moment of their lives defined by their love for each other
Suddenly the door to their bedroom chambers is kicked open and God walks in with a shotgun.
He throws an unfamiliar young woman to the floor and forces her to kneel at his feet.
The two startled lovers stand up and face God…
Then God points the shotgun at one of the male lovers and then moves the shotgun between him and the unfamiliar young woman and says to the other man, CHOOSE!
I will not supply an ending to this dilemma for you. You have to supply that ending yourself...
My dilemma is, do I choose… or try and kill God?
DWx2
Were you ever involved in The Way?
If so, did you take the Advanced Class?
I only ask because your "word of wisdom" contradicts standard TWI doctrine.
According to TWI doctrine, (not that I put much value on it anymore.)first you receive "word of knowledge" about something that's impossible to know by the five senses. Then you receive "word of wisdom", which is instruction regarding what to do with "word of Knowledge". Of course, both could be receive simultaneously. Also, according to TWI doctrine, word of knowledge and word of wisdom can not be at cross purposes with what has already been stated in God's word. In this case, the contradiction would be that God is asking for someone to be murdered, an obvious violation of the 10 commandments. In addition, it contradicts the stated nature of God. Scripturally speaking, God is light and love. There is no "darkness" in him. Murder is quite "dark" and unloving, wouldn't you agree? Even most non-Christian belief systems have doctrines that closely follow these precepts regarding the nature of a supreme being. All seem to have some version of the "Golden Rule" as well. It sounds more to me like your mind is struggling with some complicated unresolved issues. It really isn't the role of a forum such as this to counsel such matters. There are very few of us here who are professionally trained to deal with such things. I know I am definitely not.
I passed under the radar of The Way for many years. I was not effeminate and clean cut, good looking so I seemed to fit in. I studied every single piece of literature, practically memorized teaching tapes videos etc. Everything I could get my hands on. I was a WOW but did not stay on the field long. I took PFAL and a month later was on the WOW field. VPW trained us WOW's that year himself.
If so, did you take the Advanced Class?
I took PFAL and the Intermediate class twice, I also took “rise and expansion of the CC“.
I was an entertainer in Way Productions many times.
But they did not want to teach me the advanced materials... By the time I was ready to take the advanced class Craig had marked most homosexuals in the ministry and we were being told who we could hang with and where we were allowed to go.
Then I got a gay friend of mine into “the way” who had been a complete skeptic. It took me two years of “witnessing” to him to finally have a love for “the word” to take hold. The Way said he could take PFAL. He was dying of AIDS. On one occasion he had to hitch hike a two hour stretch to get from his home to class. He was ten minutes late. They not only did not rewind the tape they refunded his money and kicked him from the class. They did not go to visit him and pray with him in the hospital (thought they gave me their word they would). While he was dying he begged his secular minded sisters to please keep reading Ephesians to him while he passed from this life. And God does not have a shot gun?
I only ask because your "word of wisdom" contradicts standard TWI doctrine.
To call something "The Way" and then litter the road with debris is not really "doctrine".
Isaiah 11:2 KJV
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
According to TWI doctrine, (not that I put much value on it anymore.)first you receive "word of knowledge" about something that's impossible to know by the five senses. Then you receive "word of wisdom", which is instruction regarding what to do with "word of Knowledge". Of course, both could be receive simultaneously. Also, according to TWI doctrine, word of knowledge and word of wisdom can not be at cross purposes with what has already been stated in God's word.
The problem is that the literal "God's word" is at cross purposes with itself and anyone who cannot see that is deluding themselves. I believed it fit like a hand in a glove too, till I found blood on that glove. I will not be implicated in a demon doctrine that causes suffering and terror.
In this case, the contradiction would be that God is asking for someone to be murdered, an obvious violation of the 10 commandments.
Did this HOLY God of the Bible not bless David full knowing that he would murder Bathsheba’s husband? Did this pure perfect God (who detests sin so much) not spare Lot with the full foreknowledge that Lot would become a drunkard and sleep with his daughters?
Is this ivory tower research or a broken cistern?
In addition, it contradicts the stated nature of God. Scripturally speaking, God is light and love. There is no "darkness" in him.
Where is the love of God in hating homosexual love? Many other Non- Christians belief systems gave homosexuality a sacred status along with heterosexuality. Is that not more loving? Where is the light of hope that the natural state of personal consensual sexuality must suffer by the hands of a blood thirsty monotheistic bisexual deity?
Murder is quite "dark" and unloving, wouldn't you agree?
That is the whole point I am making. The doctrines of "The Way" are crafted to create hate toward homosexuals and others… and murder is only "a thought away" from hateful “faith”.
Even most non-Christian belief systems have doctrines that closely follow these precepts regarding the nature of a supreme being. All seem to have some version of the "Golden Rule" as well.
The golden rule is not love others at our own standard of love but to love with the standard of Jesus Christ’s love. If the rule were to do unto other as we would have them do unto us, that would be an eye for an eye. But the rule is to love Christ as he loved us not as we love others. We are taught of a NEW love then we forget it.
Did Jesus die a virgin as the orthodoxy says? Then are we all to be virgins? For that is how Christ “loved” us? Was Jesus having sex on the side with Magdalene? Is this the standard of love we are to have? Jesus gave his life but Judas took his own life... Or did Judas also give his life? What of this kiss of betrayal? I am just saying that the “LOVE” of God is too narrowly defined by the orthodoxy.
This forum is an area where splinter groups of The Way can discuss doctrine. Advanced class material is still “doctrine”… I have my own experience with "the way" and as time goes on I may open up even more.
But I also have my problems with fundamental orthodoxy and “the word” itself! Even the concept of “the word” is ambiguous when “the word” in the beginning was, “together with though distinctly independent from God….” Craig Martindale once said jokingly that, “God made the word hard on purpose…” Is that it? Is that The Way’s answer for such ambiguity of text that the end result is a doctrinal beast more hideous than the ones spoken of in The Revelation of John?
It sounds more to me like your mind is struggling with some complicated unresolved issues.
MOST people have these very same "unresolved" issues. For they are taboo. I have just not allowed myself to tuck them up on a shelf while I use "the ambiguity of the word” to withhold love, mark and avoid, not sell them bread, leave them in the hospital to die alone and without comfort, prayer and acceptance.
I have found peace in knowing that the so called “Word of God” is BROKEN. But in just me knowing that, I do not have peace in the knowledge that my homosexual bothers and sisters will be persecuted by this orthodoxy and broken DOCTIRNE of “The Way” and other "Christian" churches.
It really isn't the role of a forum such as this to counsel such matters. There are very few of us here who are professionally trained to deal with such things. I know I am definitely not.
I do really not know any homosexuals “by profession“... They just usually are. I am not here to debate (though I will) I am here to nail my 97 theses to the church door.
I understand that what I have been discussing here is advanced class thought.
Is it that some are not advanced and ready to see the ugliness of the God that The Way International portrays as “holy”?
Even the council of Nicaea had at least one opposing view of the orthodoxy… this opposing view (if history is true) was taken out and “tortured and murdered” for heresy.
So we are to believe that suddenly orthodox fundamental Christians have a heart?
We probably agree on the essence of more points than we disagree.
Fer instance------ Like you, I believe a high percentage of what The Way tried to pass off as "Truth" was really a load of hog slop. One point we may disagree on, though, is that I don't think you need "the love of Jesus" to follow the golden rule. In fact, I don't even think you need to have any religious/spiritual beliefs at all to follow the Golden Rule. 'Cause if you can't love your neighbor as yourself and treat your fellow man with respect (homosexuals included), all the Bible talk in the world is nothing more than a clever Sunday School lesson. Many of the things The Way did in the name of God are so ludicrous, it sickens me. I, too, lost a good friend because of the toxins they promoted as truth. Some hot shot AC grad told him they thought he was born again of the wrong seed.------So he killed himself. Nice, huh? What they did to your friend is reprehensible. I'm grieved to hear it. Personally, I no longer believe "The Word" has to fit together with "math this" and "science that" or fit like "a foot in a sock" or any of that stuff. I also don't believe it's like some cryptic mystery we should pursue to the ends of the earth. The Bible is what it is. It's a compilation of writings of men. It's been mistranslated, misrepresented and misunderstood for hundreds of years. It's filled with errors that we most likely will never decipher. Still, that doesn't mean we can't make an effort to treat our fellow man the way we would like them to treat us.
Where is the love of God in hating homosexual love? Many other Non- Christians belief systems gave homosexuality a sacred status along with heterosexuality. Is that not more loving? Where is the light of hope that the natural state of personal consensual sexuality must suffer by the hands of a blood thirsty monotheistic bisexual deity?
It depends on what brand of christianity you look at, not all christian doctrine is fundamentalist way style doctrine although they can at times seem the loudest and most vocal. Although they clang loudly it doesnt necessarily make them 'right' or even in the majority among christians.
There are many christian denominations and groups that welcome, baptize and even ordain homosexuals. To equate God with only one group or style of christians is a narrow view. Contrary to the way we were trained to think in the way, there are completely different well developed viewpoints and approaches to scripture.
IMO TWI's view of 'The Word" was f'ed up beyond repair---culminating in horrendously unchristian actions like those to your friend. Nothing that they taught was 'advanced' at all, if anything it was completely backward. After I left I replayed it and replayed it until finally I did take Realweird's advice and "chucked the whole thing". It took around 10 years to get it out of my mind.... If I do decide to build another relationship with scripture someday, its not going to be on Wierwilles literalist hodge podge terms or by using his vacuous "principles" to attempt to gain an understanding of it...
That has proven itself to me ----"by their fruits you shall know them"--it didnt and doesnt work--BUT thankfully thats certainly not the only view there is to choose from....
Listened to the YouTube clip from the first page and didn't find it all that logical. The premise that one's sexuality is similar to one's race in that it is sacred. I can see why he believes sex is a sacred gift from God, even though I can't think of a biblical reference off the top of my head. But race? Your face is sacred? To me race is a human system of classification. It is what it is solely for the purposes of visual and cultural classification and clarification or distinction and for some for discrimination. If there is a God I highly doubt it thinks of us in terms of race. We are the human race. A varied, wacky, randy bunch of misfits. So if there is a God I highly doubt it thinks your race is sacred. So from that point you could make the same argument for sexuality or sexual orientation. But that doesn't fit the purposes of his comparison.
Secondly, the idea that every man is tempted in the sexual category is the same case as someone being a homosexual is again loose logic and a clear misunderstanding of the realities of sexuality. Sure I or any other man could be tempted to go outside our marriage, but we can still go home and enjoy having sex with our wives... as long as she doesn't have a headache: ) Not the same for homosexuality. That supposed sacred gift has been stripped clean and clear from the homosexual. This starts from their earliest ideas of sex.
blah blah blah wasted air. I won't even go into the ignorance of medical/chemical realities of sex and sexuality.
I'm glad some of you aren't hateful in your attitudes. There's a step in the right direction.
Is there a place or a way all these different denominations and schools of thought can come together?
Yes, just forget half the things you teach and believe and come together around the good DrWearWord's law of liberty doctrine. Simple. Duh!
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DrWearWord
I might suggest that Jesus Christ is the one who judges what sacred love is, not other saints.
I am confused and wonder what qualifies Jesus to judge whether homosexuality is sacred?
Who is Jesus? A man whom orthodoxy says, never married, a man that the gnostics say, had a child with Magdalene and yes, he gathered twelve men and not one of them, not even Peter, felt free to, "agape" him. Then the world murdered Jesus Christ (like Matthew Shepherd) and has used it ever since to condemn homosexuals.
Is that logical? Is that the "message of Christ", is that the "good news"?
Sometimes the "truth" needs defense.
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geisha779
It has been interesting chatting with you.
Funny you should mention Matthew Shepherd. . . I met his mom when she gave a speech here. I never heard her liken the death of her son to the crucifixion of Christ, she could have at some point in time, but I never heard it.
Did you ever notice that the bible tells us to confess Jesus as Lord? We don't make Him Lord. . . He already is. . . we confess Him as Lord. That is who He is. . . . Lord of All( Acts 10:36)
I am outta here
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DrWearWord
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Comment: Is celibacy "knowing no sin"... Or was fathering a child out of wedlock with Magdalene, knowing no sin, Or maybe it was just gathering and hanging out with twelve dudes constantly talking about "love" that gives him his sinless character?
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DrWearWord
Thanks for your input and God bless you. :)
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DrWearWord
Matthew Shepherd was martyred whether he was Christian or not.
What is the price of a homosexual human life?
The meek shall inherit the earth.
I might also add that Jesus says heterosexuals (and not just homosexuals) will not go to heaven either... Apparently Jesus believed there was no differentiation of sex in heaven. Like the angels...
My point is that people don’t think these biblical doctrines “throughly”…
Matthew 22:30 KJV
For in the resurrection they neither marry , nor are given in marriage , but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:25 KJV
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry , nor are given in marriage ; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Comment: I guess heterosexuals just "forget" 60 some years of love and marriage when they get to heaven.
Where is the "hope" in that?
Maybe people can still fornicate outside the gates of paradise. (cynical)
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DrWearWord
I thank you for making this seemingly insignificant but actually vital distinction.
True, Christ Jesus is the lord even though people may have been taught differently.
But to confess something is to believe what we say. What is it that we believe that qualifies one in our own heart to be lord of our life? There needs to be sufficient verity of truth.
Is it blind submission or should our confession be the collective idea of gnosis?
Do we receive the spirit out of a simple small ‘b’ belief and over time develop a big ‘B’ Belief and what of when we spend our whole lives confessing him as lord and we in the end, end up hating homosexuals, hating those who have not come to our own conclusions and just as confused as to what God's will really is?
Was it worth his putting so much FAITH into something that ultimately led us into a radical eccentric form of terror?
I believe Jesus Christ is the lord of creation as God is the Creator of creation but I still have not come unto a "knowledge of the truth"...
Truth is more elusive than God.
e⋅lu⋅sive –adjective
1. eluding clear perception or complete mental grasp; hard to express or define: an elusive concept.
2. cleverly or skillfully evasive: a fish too elusive to catch.
Romans 7:19 KJV
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do .
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DrWearWord
The truth is ambiguity.
The word interprets itself?
The spirit of truth:
Is the spirit of truth, spirit or truth?
Law of liberty:
Is the law of liberty, law or liberty?
Is it really possible to derive truth from ambiguity?
Is ambiguity simple?
Does truth change when knowledge changes?
If relative truth changes with knowledge then is ultimate truth merely an ideal bound for egregious error?
So we girt our loins with ambiguity and our hearts with ambiguity and we run the race with ambiguity for the ambiguous prize that may or may not exist in the way we perceive it.
1 Corinthians 8:1 KJV
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up , but charity edifieth .
Comment: Can charity exist without a conscious mind? Can charity exist outside of the knowledge of God?
Even "love" is ambiguous.
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DrWearWord
Romans 1:11.For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established ;
12.That is , that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13.Now I would not have you ignorant , brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto ,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14.I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Comment: This "spirtual gift" that Paul gave to Rome was to condemn homosexuals... So are all supposed to be comforted together in that "knowledge" that God hates homosexuals?
It this "truth"?
This is the good news? Are homosexuals liars who have deceived themselves with false imagination? Do Homosexuals dishonor their bodies with lust, unnatural, and they all hate God can’t stand thinking about God and then Paul lists homosexuals with every truly vile behavior he can rattle off…
And these "demons" which make homosexuals "unclean" have nothing to do with science but with this “spirit of truth” according to Paul and we are supposed to be “willing” servants to the laws he writes. We are supposed to also believe we are free from law at the same time.
Romans 19
19.Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Comment: So God said it and that settles it? Only a few know and Paul is one and he SINCERLY "thinks" what he has to says is the TRUTH.
Moses said that God personally told him also to stone to death homosexuals (with ham eaters too).
And the loving Christ Jesus of Paul the Apostle has the blood of homosexuals all over his pure white raiment.
1Corinthains 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Comment: More ambiguity...
Paul lays down the law then says there is no law.
So there is the ambiguity of the letter of the law versus the righteousness of the law.
And we are told the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets themselves then Paul contradicts himself and says he is not writing what he thinks but what the spirit tells him...
Heb 10:16 KJV
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Comment: Paul decides just in case the laws are not in the heart he will lay a few down anyway. Though knowledge “puffs up” a little knowledge about hating homosexuals is ok?
Are these God's laws or the laws of the prophet Paul?
Paul says he tells us these things so our lives won't be "grievous" but the only grief homosexuals get are from Paul’s "laws" that are used to persecute them…
So does the loving father give a gift which is a scorpion?
And whose heart has been "darkened" toward homosexuals?
And does this hatred for homosexuals make the hearts of "Christians" vain?
Orthodoxy is broken and the real lie is that homosexuality a sin.
The REAL truth is that if it were not for homosexuals, heterosexuals would have killed each other long ago.
It is the middle sex that has the TRUTH, compassion, tolerance.
Homosexuality is just as PURE as heterosexuality.
And again and so often the flat earth "words way" of the Bible is used to persecute a neighbor.
Science has proven that homosexuality is genetic and not a devil spirit.
It is a natural state of life that belongs through evolution between the sexes.
Orthodoxy has turned the sanctity of homosexuality into a lie, their hearts are hardened against homosexuals and they shall receive the recompense of that which is meet.
If I were to hate homosexuals through or by the gospel of Christ, I would be ashamed of that gospel.
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leafytwiglet
Drwearword... I read everything you wrote and will consider it carefully ... I don't know if you are right or wrong and I am not as versed in the word as you are... I can see that this issue is extremely close to your heart....
I will add one thing which may or may not be correct or true or even close to the mark ... contradictions aparently are catching.... perhaps some of the translations of the KJV and thus succeding translations of scripture are influenced by the times they were written and ideas that were prevalent then...kind of a trickle down effect.
These things I do know about God and Christ....I love God... and I love Christ and I believe weither I am right or wrong.... that Christ was sent to save our souls... will I even want sex when I am in a spiritual form... I do not think so, but so many things ellude me... I think sex is a thing of the earth, something to encourage procreation and bonding between two humans..I do not know exactly what the answer is to all this... I have no doubt you find what I say feble as I have no scripture to back up how I feel... I don't hate homosexuals and I don't think if a person is homosexual they are damed.... I think there are many issues in this world that we as thick headed humans do not understand. Will we ever understand them??? I do not know but I do know that We as Christians (No matter your sexual orientation) are called to love and care for one another.. To strengthen each other and to be a beacon to those we meet in our every day lives.
I would hope that if we were to meet each other we could embrace each other with love acceptance and understanding.
Oh and Thanks for the scriptures you shared I will be spending some time reading them...
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DrWearWord
I am surprised I am capable of reasoning beyond my own ambiguity to say, THANK YOU. :)
Your words are a blessing, I don't know if I believe my own words... my words must be ok because, "the devil has never written a book..."
Job 31:35
Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book.
Job 33:10
Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
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geisha779
Dr. WW
All your questions and your searchings and concerns--they struck a chord in me. . . I want to ask you to just consider this. . . maybe truth is not a what---maybe it doesn't change and isn't so elusive . . . . because maybe truth is a who?
Absolute truth CAN be found. It is in the person of Jesus Christ. Remember, He told us this. . . I am the way--the truth and the life.
Truth is not a what. . . it is a who.
Truth is objective---not subjective. What is moral stems from that truth. Whether you agree or argue--there are moral absolutes--
One that you understand and I admire in you is that we are called to love. To hurt or hate in the name of God is wrong.
Hope you get some peace with your questions. Get to know the truth--He welcomes all who come to Him.
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DrWearWord
Romans 7:1KJV
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2.For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3.So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4.Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5.For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6.But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Comment: If brethren are to marry Jesus and God and bring forth fruit... then, are God/Jesus feminine?
Do women have to become sons or be disinherited?
More ambiguity...
Song of Solomon 2:8 KJV
The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
Comment: Eros and Agape as lovers… And science says men have both an X and a Y chromosome.
Science says the X chromosome is much older than the Y chromosome which means God created a helpmate for Eve…
God took the X chromosome from Eve's rib and fashioned (mutated) a small part of the X chromosome into the Y chromosome and men were born knowing both good and evil.
Not only has the X chromosome remained stable for millions of years but the Y chromosome is deteriorating and mutating much more rapidly than the X chromosome which might indicate that the so called “original sin” may also not have been the woman’s doing.
Again the orthodoxy leaves us in spiritual ambiguity.
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DrWearWord
I don't now if truth is a person, a thing, an ideal, or dream than can never be realized.
Perhaps "truth" is my curse...
What of the ambiguity of biblical justice?
The first part of this story involves my neighbors.
Everyday sometime in the afternoon they start to go at it, “if you know what I mean.”
They are both a bit too old to be siring children so I know they are not "doing it" to procreate.
But every afternoon my whole living room begins to shake and I just sit there, even if I have guests over, I just scoff it off and say, oh well… and ignore it.
When I pass these neighbors in the hall, I do not look at them, funny, I am cordial and polite.
They do not know that as a homosexual man to me them having sex is tantamount to forcing a heterosexual to listen to gay people having sex. Yet still, I tolerate and accept it, as I withhold judgment.
Here is my second story…
My sister told me that her husband is lonely…
She says he only gets to see her at night when she gets home from work and they hardly get to spend three or four days a week together…
Now here is my third story…
I lived on and off with a man for seven years (not one year) and after seven years we realized we cared enough for each other to mutually enter into a moderately sexual relationship.
But it turned out he was not at all ready for "the relationship". So he began to weep and torment himself…
He told me I was his only LOVER and he left me... with a promise of fidelity…
Seven more years went by… in that seven years we were intimate about seven times, each time it ended in tears, self torment and him running out on me. We would both go back to celibacy and, a wanting, that could drive a “normal“ person to wrath. I knew where he went to live when he was not with me and I knew he lived alone without any other lover.
There were no wedding bells and no family support. I have a big family and none of my siblings have ever met him, let alone, they don’t even probably really know or recall me saying his name, though I have many times.
Eventually the mental guilt this man had to bear became too great and we do not see each other anymore.
To be touched affectionately only seven times in seven years is due to the stigma, the fear and shame that is imposed on homosexuals by what many call, “the truth”…
So while my neighbors fornicate everyday and my sister’s husband is so lonely because she is gone a few hours, I do really still try to find compassion, concern, acceptance and tolerance.
I have lived in moderation, I have placed monogamy and even near celibacy (that "burns" like hell) at the top of my list of virtues for so long, yet, it was still, not enough…
And where is the justice in that?
Song of Solomon 2:10 KJV
My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
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DrWearWord
Pslams 85:10.Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Luke 22:47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
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DrWearWord
If Solomon had wisdom he certainly wrote it within the song of songs.
This is how I interpret the song of songs.
I see that there are three songs in the song of songs.
One song is from the perspective of a female lover, another song is from the perspective of a male lover.
The third song is the song of the world who seek after this “love”.
God is not mentioned in the song of songs.
Jesus, according to orthodoxy, never had sex so why sexual language will be used to describe future heavenly events when angels don’t marry is also a peculiarity.
So the wisdom of the song of songs is that Eros is used in the same poem.
You have to be bisexual to enjoy the poem…
Some guy is talking about his rod and the woman is talking about her orchard…
Then one wonders why is God not present when Eros is present between sacred lovers?
Again, the songs of songs does not mention God once.
One would think that God would be knit in the center of marriage and even sexual love. Thus is this emphasis by omission? Is Solomon’s wisdom not what is written but what is not written?
What is not written is God’s reaction to such lustful male on female eros. How many Christian’s read their bibles when they have intercourse?
This is hard to explain… other than maybe being blunt and saying what Solomon neglected to say…
That God must be bisexual.
How can God be in the middle of two heterosexual Christians while they make love and not desire them physically the same?
If God created both the male and female genitalia does that not present a dilemma, conflict of interest, internal conflict involving God’s own sexual identity?
So to question which sex God prefers is a taboo???
But I must be questioned and scrutinized?
For if you are a heterosexual male the song of songs will be half like reading female literature describing how sexy and virile men are, and if you are reading it and a heterosexual female then a large portion of the poem dwells on male sexual worship of the female. If you are homosexual you just flip half of it around... So while the world is watching these lovers prepare to fornicate, God is watching them too... and what kind of kick is God getting out of it all?
I will say, the answer simply leads to more ambiguity.
Perhaps they can just cut the baby in half?
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geisha779
Jesus invites us--"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
That rest is not to be found in our own understanding--in our own way. We rest in Him who is truth.
We are all right in our own sight. . . you, me, the neighbors. . . but there is no rest there. No peace and no enduring joy.
Dying to self is a painful process Dr. WW. . . to follow Him means sacrifice, it can mean denial of our own desires. . . . . but look what He offers us in return. . . Rest.
I understand your questions and I am sorry for your struggles--but there is a way. It is a narrow gate and it is filled with many troubles in this life as we are perfected. . . . but, it truly is an abundant life found in Him. . . Not money--not possesions--not prosperity--not even happiness which is fleeting, . . . no, it is an abundant life filled with the deep things of God. Peace, enduring Joy, Love untold, Hope, Rest, and security in Him.
Do we truly have faith in Him--enough to trust and lose our lives to gain them. Enough to sacrifice what He requires of us? Enough to pick up our own cross and follow Him?
Do we want to know Him as He is--or do we want to make Him what we think He should be? Do we love our own understanding more than Him? Or, do we love Him more than anything?
Not everyone really wants to know Him. . . as He truly is.
Hope you find peace.
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waysider
Maybe the answers you're seeking are beyond the scope of an internet forum or scriptural analysis.
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DrWearWord
Here is a story I received this morning through the spirit of wisdom.
There were two homosexual males sleeping together in a bed. They were passionate life long lovers and lived each moment of their lives defined by their love for each other.
Suddenly the door to their bedchambers is kicked open and God walks in with a shotgun.
He throws an unfamiliar young woman to the floor and forces her to kneel at his feet.
The two startled lovers stand up and face God…
Then God points the shotgun at one of the male lovers and then moves the shotgun between him and the unfamiliar young woman and says to the other man, CHOOSE!
I will not supply an ending to this dilemma for you. You have to supply that ending yourself...
My dilemma is, do I choose… or try to disarm God?
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waysider
DWx2
Were you ever involved in The Way?
If so, did you take the Advanced Class?
I only ask because your "word of wisdom" contradicts standard TWI doctrine.
According to TWI doctrine, (not that I put much value on it anymore.) first you receive "word of knowledge" about something that's impossible to know by the five senses. Then you receive "word of wisdom", which is instruction regarding what to do with "word of Knowledge". Of course, both could be receive simultaneously. Also, according to TWI doctrine, word of knowledge and word of wisdom can not be at cross purposes with what has already been stated in God's word. In this case, the contradiction would be that God is asking for someone to be murdered, an obvious violation of the 10 commandments. In addition, it contradicts the stated nature of God. Scripturally speaking, God is light and love. There is no "darkness" in him. Murder is quite "dark" and unloving, wouldn't you agree? Even most non-Christian belief systems have doctrines that closely follow these precepts regarding the nature of a supreme being. All seem to have some version of the "Golden Rule" as well. It sounds more to me like your mind is struggling with some complicated unresolved issues. It really isn't the role of a forum such as this to counsel such matters. There are very few of us here who are professionally trained to deal with such things. I know I am definitely not.
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DrWearWord
DrWearWord's comments are in the color red
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DrWearWord
When the ministry lost its heart, it lost its way...
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waysider
DWW
We probably agree on the essence of more points than we disagree.
Fer instance------ Like you, I believe a high percentage of what The Way tried to pass off as "Truth" was really a load of hog slop. One point we may disagree on, though, is that I don't think you need "the love of Jesus" to follow the golden rule. In fact, I don't even think you need to have any religious/spiritual beliefs at all to follow the Golden Rule. 'Cause if you can't love your neighbor as yourself and treat your fellow man with respect (homosexuals included), all the Bible talk in the world is nothing more than a clever Sunday School lesson. Many of the things The Way did in the name of God are so ludicrous, it sickens me. I, too, lost a good friend because of the toxins they promoted as truth. Some hot shot AC grad told him they thought he was born again of the wrong seed.------So he killed himself. Nice, huh? What they did to your friend is reprehensible. I'm grieved to hear it. Personally, I no longer believe "The Word" has to fit together with "math this" and "science that" or fit like "a foot in a sock" or any of that stuff. I also don't believe it's like some cryptic mystery we should pursue to the ends of the earth. The Bible is what it is. It's a compilation of writings of men. It's been mistranslated, misrepresented and misunderstood for hundreds of years. It's filled with errors that we most likely will never decipher. Still, that doesn't mean we can't make an effort to treat our fellow man the way we would like them to treat us.
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mstar1
It depends on what brand of christianity you look at, not all christian doctrine is fundamentalist way style doctrine although they can at times seem the loudest and most vocal. Although they clang loudly it doesnt necessarily make them 'right' or even in the majority among christians.
There are many christian denominations and groups that welcome, baptize and even ordain homosexuals. To equate God with only one group or style of christians is a narrow view. Contrary to the way we were trained to think in the way, there are completely different well developed viewpoints and approaches to scripture.
IMO TWI's view of 'The Word" was f'ed up beyond repair---culminating in horrendously unchristian actions like those to your friend. Nothing that they taught was 'advanced' at all, if anything it was completely backward. After I left I replayed it and replayed it until finally I did take Realweird's advice and "chucked the whole thing". It took around 10 years to get it out of my mind.... If I do decide to build another relationship with scripture someday, its not going to be on Wierwilles literalist hodge podge terms or by using his vacuous "principles" to attempt to gain an understanding of it...
That has proven itself to me ----"by their fruits you shall know them"--it didnt and doesnt work--BUT thankfully thats certainly not the only view there is to choose from....
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lindyhopper
Listened to the YouTube clip from the first page and didn't find it all that logical. The premise that one's sexuality is similar to one's race in that it is sacred. I can see why he believes sex is a sacred gift from God, even though I can't think of a biblical reference off the top of my head. But race? Your face is sacred? To me race is a human system of classification. It is what it is solely for the purposes of visual and cultural classification and clarification or distinction and for some for discrimination. If there is a God I highly doubt it thinks of us in terms of race. We are the human race. A varied, wacky, randy bunch of misfits. So if there is a God I highly doubt it thinks your race is sacred. So from that point you could make the same argument for sexuality or sexual orientation. But that doesn't fit the purposes of his comparison.
Secondly, the idea that every man is tempted in the sexual category is the same case as someone being a homosexual is again loose logic and a clear misunderstanding of the realities of sexuality. Sure I or any other man could be tempted to go outside our marriage, but we can still go home and enjoy having sex with our wives... as long as she doesn't have a headache: ) Not the same for homosexuality. That supposed sacred gift has been stripped clean and clear from the homosexual. This starts from their earliest ideas of sex.
blah blah blah wasted air. I won't even go into the ignorance of medical/chemical realities of sex and sexuality.
I'm glad some of you aren't hateful in your attitudes. There's a step in the right direction.
Is there a place or a way all these different denominations and schools of thought can come together?
Yes, just forget half the things you teach and believe and come together around the good DrWearWord's law of liberty doctrine. Simple. Duh!
Come on you guys get it together.
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