Romans 9:29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
This seems to be saying (to me) that the people of Sodom and Gomorra were actually closer to the true God because their religious system was based upon faith…
Noah instituted a system based upon faith... Moses changed it to law, Moses was also forbidden to enter the promised land, and he "denied the rock".
It seems to say that faith is superior to law.
That faith produces a society where homosexuality is accepted, "though not in excess", yet it was still closer to what "God" sees as "truth" in comparison to a society that has within it this "seed of law”. A society grown from law is too rigid and is not living and dynamic. Thus a society born solely of law cannot accurately represent the TRUE sexually enigmatic nature of God..
I like this i. e., saying what we think about a verse without being called posessed or tripped out or out of fellowship. Anyway...
cman, I think the answer you may be looking for is in the verses following verse 18.
DWW, Moses did not change anything to law, their Lord Jehovah changed it. The law was rigid only to those such as stated in vs 32. The Law had to come. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the Law.
"I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth." 3John 1:4
i have and will continue to consider the following verses as well as others
dww, interesting observation
and would add that homosexuality isn't necessarily what S and G was about
but more about the balance of the masculine and feminine qualities of the faith that is Holy and is Spirit
Cman,
You, Kimberly, and Dr WW have really sparked my curiousity here. I know you were probably looking for a discussion on the doctrine of election, but I would really love to know something.
If this will derail this thread too much just ignore my query, but I really wonder when I read posts like the one's above. . . what do you truly believe is the Holiness of God ?
Habakkuk 1:13: "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil, and you cannot tolerate wrong."
The zeal of God burns for the holiness of his great name. Ezekiel 36:22, 23:
Say to the house of Israel, thus says the Lord God: "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations . . . and the nations will know that I am the Lord, says the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
DWW, Moses did not change anything to law, their Lord Jehovah changed it. The law was rigid only to those such as stated in vs 32. The Law had to come. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the Law.
VPW said God tried (was it three times?) to discourage Moses from perusing the law. Though I have looked and cannot recall the actual scriptures he based this assumption on.
Then, If Moses and "God’s" law is so right on then why did God suddenly decide later according to the prophets that he never needed the sacrifices and detested the blood of goats and lambs? Why did God also punish Moses? For having to rewrite ten short commandments? Isn’t that a bit harsh? Or was it Moses treatment of those of strange “faith” who opposed his strict interpretation of God being merely law?
Does that not cast doubt on the "authority" of Moses' God, and Moses' own prophetic character and motives. Moses said “God told me this and God told me that…” It is quite possible Hammurabi gave Moses his laws and not “God“. It seems odd also that Abraham also found the monotheistic ambiguously sexual God from out of Mesopotamia too. And then we end up with a legal system the Bible calls broken and weak then Paul the Apostle comes on the scene and says “God told me this and God told me that”. I consider the Bible is at this point “crying wolf.” Is this not an insult to our intelligence? Since the prophets of old passed off truth for so long it seems the school master did not know his subjects. And now we are supposed to take the contradictory word and “law” of Paul another “prophet of God” simply on face value? Paul seems in need of Prozac and after all that Christian killing he suddenly has a change of heart and mind?
Homosexuals are often portrayed as weak but the Bible says it was actually the law that was weak.
I know my synopsis I left yesterday of the last verses in Romans 9 is weak itself. I wanted to clarify my remarks yesterday but my head was too tired.
It seems that both faith and law were inadequate and the new testament is actually where the spirit of faith and the law are preserved into a new torah.
One might ask why a NEW torah if the old one is just fine? Didn’t the prophets make enough “laws”? Jesus says a new torah I give you.
Not a new law on top of all of the other laws but a new LAW that would prove the other laws and faiths inferior.
For this new law is new birth and an incorruptible seed where the law alone became corrupted and did not remain true. But through faith and spirit a new law that is more perfect emerges and is possible from the heart.
For with spirit alone there is no knowledge and with knowledge alone there is no spirit.
The spirit has no mind of its own but teaches what God says. It seems we are then left again with our own ambiguity and with an ambiguous deity.
So either system was weak (faith and law) and only in the realization of the equally ambiguous Christ Jesus is a new Torah of unity born.
I am reminded of liberals and conservatives today. It seems that this faith and law are again separated. And to be independent or centrists is not actually the same as living the law of liberty.
When one realizes that both law and liberty are an oxymoron and then see the brilliance of “the law of liberty” then we have liberty though the perfect incorruptible (sinless) spirit and we have law, the revelation and knowledge of God through Christ Jesus. Thus, to walk solely by faith OR law is, walking by the flesh.
Even though God and Jesus are still ambiguous it would seen the new testament takes from God his jealous nature and restores an image of love. Leaves one to wonder then, who was Moses’ God really? Was Moses God partially Lucifer exercising his dominion over the earth that Genesis states he stole from Adam, walking to and fro and “chums” with God (as in Job)? Or was the creation, flood story and law of Moses possibly stolen/borrowed from the Sumerians?
This love is also an oxymoron... when compared to many of the laws and also an oxymoron to faith without boundaries.
So how can the Word of God be the will of God when faith and law are partially derived from the spirit?
Even more ambiguity… So is the written word or the word in the flesh the will of God?
Again then we continue the logic that says they are both oxymorons. Thus born out of same idea that the word and the spirit are like law and faith then they are united likewise in the law of liberty, otherwise they are diametrically opposed powers.
Through the word and the spirit, the old laws are bent to conform to love’s moderate demands and faith is tamed to honor the true God in charity.
It is interesting to note that neither the spirit or the written word alone are sufficient for salvation. The written word alone cannot compare to the spirit's presence, but the spirit’s presence is illuminated and energized by yes, the ambiguity of the written word of God.
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
God's plan and direction for man to obtain righteousness, sanctification and salvation are clearly and absolutely defined by GOD on his terms and not man's terms, viewpoints and philosophies and self proclaimed and professed doctrines. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for hewing out their own doctrines and perverting His ways.
Jesus Christ instructing His disciples before sending them out to preach and teach Salvation and the Truths and Holiness of GOD:
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah they had free will choice to chose what they believed and acted upon. Man can only be close to GOD on God's terms. His answer to their terms was their complete and utter destruction. GOD doesn't accept man's pluralistic and universal viewpoint He allows them as He in His Love freely gave us free will choice to accept His Will and Ways or Hew out our own. No one ultimately will win standing against GOD. His mercy and Love is great and vast but He justice and equity is kept in abeyance for a season...not forever
Dr.WearWord: This seems to be saying (to me) that the people of Sodom and Gomorra were actually closer to the true God because their religious system was based upon faith…
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
God is absolutely Holy in all aspects! He is thoroughly and throughly clean, purely pure, Unblemished, blameless, and without ANY perverseness.
In Him is no darkness nor shadow of turning. When one hews out his own doctrines or perverts his own way and opposes GOD, GOD gives him up eventually to his own devices and allows his own blindness to remain, but only after GOD in His great Love and Mercy has pleaded and constrained each one personally to return unto Him; just as Abraham besought GOD to save any righteous man in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house. (...for our learning indeed)
He who hath eyes to see, sees and sees GOD. He who hath ears to hear, hears and hears GOD!!! Understanding GOD is by choice and deliberate effort and simple to the willing:
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
God's plan and direction for man to obtain righteousness, sanctification and salvation are clearly and absolutely defined by GOD on his terms and not man's terms, viewpoints and philosophies and self proclaimed and professed doctrines. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for hewing out their own doctrines and perverting His ways.
Jesus Christ instructing His disciples before sending them out to preach and teach Salvation and the Truths and Holiness of GOD:
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah they had free will choice to chose what they believed and acted upon. Man can only be close to GOD on God's terms. His answer to their terms was their complete and utter destruction. GOD doesn't accept man's pluralistic and universal viewpoint He allows them as He in His Love freely gave us free will choice to accept His Will and Ways or Hew out our own. No one ultimately will win standing against GOD. His mercy and Love is great and vast but He justice and equity is kept in abeyance for a season...not forever
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. [/b][/color]
God is absolutely Holy in all aspects! He is thoroughly and throughly clean, purely pure, Unblemished, blameless, and without ANY perverseness.
In Him is no darkness nor shadow of turning. When one hews out his own doctrines or perverts his own way and opposes GOD, GOD gives him up eventually to his own devices and allows his own blindness to remain, but only after GOD in His great Love and Mercy has pleaded and constrained each one personally to return unto Him; just as Abraham besought GOD to save any righteous man in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house. (...for our learning indeed)
He who hath eyes to see, sees and sees GOD. He who hath ears to hear, hears and hears GOD!!! Understanding GOD is by choice and deliberate effort and simple to the willing:
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Rainbowsgirl,
Wow, thanks for that powerful post. There is a famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards(From my neck of the woods)called "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"-----as I have been reading along here lately. . . I think. . . as RC Sprouls says. . . "God in the Hands of Angry Sinners."
You so wonderfully pointed out that God IS holy and pure.
I wonder if we truly see who God is and love Him as He is--when we carve out doctrines . . . . attribute them to Him, but they actually run contrary to His nature.
Jonathan Edwards would not be too popular in our PC pluralistic world today. But, isn't it love which motivates one to speak the truth. I think he was a compassionate man--a fire and brimstone preacher when need be. Part of the great awakening. . . what was waking everyone up? The idea that because God is love--he is not Holy--because God is merciful He is not just? No, these preachers during that time preached about the holiness of God. A very scary concept to a sinner. Or it should be.
The bible states we were God's ENEMIES. Unconverted--we are enemies of God.
Roman's 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
His love for us is not the issue. . . ever. It is our love for Him. . . as He is. When we refuse His authority over us. . . we are refusing Him. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. It has no affection for God, it is cold toward Him--angry with Him.
God represents the worst kind of threat to our sinful nature. The kind backed with authority.
What is it we did with Emmanuel(God is with us)? What did we do with Jesus? We crucified Him. It is no different now. . . we would kill Him. . . as natural men that is what we do. . . try to kill God off. All you have to do is look around. . . how hard so many fight to rid the universe of God.
We want to rule over our own sinful lives. God stands in our way. But. . . why?
Because of who God is. . . Holy. Pure. Perfect. Good. Just. Sovereign. These attributes of God are what we are to love above ALL things. We are to submit our own will to His authority.
In making Him in the image we want Him to be we are rejecting Him as He is.. . . . We are in control of our lives and His being. It is human nature.
The bible clearly tells us about human nature.
Understanding just a bit about our nature. . . God's attributes and the reality of what happened on that Cross can change lives. For eternity.
It is so important that the gospel of Christ be preached.
Sorry dww, I'm not sure I addressed your comments well.
But what I said to you and geisha is me talking to anyone listening i suppose.
What's that verse about 'if in this life only we have hope' we are in bad shape, or something like that. I'm sure anyone could look it up.
That tells me there is another life for us and I suspect it to be a bit different. And that this life is not the only chance we have to be saved or whatever anyone wants to call it. I think it's happened already and happening without notice, and to see it is possible now in reality. Glimpses, perhaps many days and nights of being shown.
If we just look at what we see physically and not consider what is not seen then we are in bad shape for sure.
If all there is is what we can see physically then why can we have thoughts about things not seen?
Are thoughts seen?
And the things not seen are what we are to look at.
God was the Lord of the Old Testament but He was not their Father.
Those who are born of Him He will not destroy. There may be some who choose to not be born of His seed. They destroy themselves by that choice. He is my Father I am His child. He is not this big bad evil dude waiting to bonk me on the head and turn His back on me if I do something wrong. That is never once recorded of Him to His children in the Church Epistles. He is always there, He is always in me, He is always waiting with open arms if I go askew. And daggummit, He is there if I just need a big ole hug and a pat on the head. That is just how close and real my Father is. The Lord Jesus be taking me by the hand a lot of times. Show me, help me, teach me........that is how real He is.
He knows me. He knows how I grew up and why I think and act the way I do sometimes. He knows my every heartbeat and thought. He knows my struggles. He doesn't beat the soup out of me or turn His back on me if I don't get it "right" all of the time. Father doesn't do that to anybody. He knows why people are hurt, why they think the way they do, why they are lost, seeking, asking, mislead etc.
And you know what I have learned, Father does meet His children where they are. And He does meet the lost and hurt and unsaved ravaged person where they are. Father loving God understands and His heart is, I think, turned more toward those who have had the hell beat out of them and can not find the way out. Jesus Christ knows above all what it is like to walk on this earth.
I think of the Lord Jesus quoting Psalms 22 while hanging on the cross. With His last breaths He was saying to Israel, "HELLO!!!!! IT IS ME!!!!! YOU KNOW THE ONE PROPHESIED ABOUT!!!! I AM THE ONE!!!!! He was giving them every last chance to realize He was their Promised Messiah. Everything that was done against Him all His life He was still fighting for them and loving them. He didn't condemn them because they didn't meet Him on His terms.
He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
It is the goodness of God that leads people to repentenance.
That is my soapbox for the day on this thread. Actually, for my entire life.
, Where in GOD's word does it say that anyone or everyone is saved no matter what they think and or do???
Where does it say that ones own private interpretations, doctrines and twisting of sound doctrine along with everyone elses right to do so is acceptable to GOD???
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
It doesn't as it is contrary to sound doctrine and GOD is not a designer GOD ...mankinds personal Ken Doll to use to suit your personal thoughts needs and desires...Wake Up and study His Word and His Will !!!
You won't find GOD or His Word to back you!!!
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which becomesound doctrine:
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1Cr 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
Pro 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.
Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.
Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Deu 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, [so] the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chastenethhim betimes.
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Bear in mind that:GOD has requirements and prerequisite to standing approved before Him
Rainbowsgirl,
Wow, thanks for that powerful post. There is a famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards(From my neck of the woods)called "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"-----as I have been reading along here lately. . . I think. . . as RC Sprouls says. . . "God in the Hands of Angry Sinners."
You so wonderfully pointed out that God IS holy and pure.
I wonder if we truly see who God is and love Him as He is--when we carve out doctrines . . . . attribute them to Him, but they actually run contrary to His nature.
Jonathan Edwards would not be too popular in our PC pluralistic world today. But, isn't it love which motivates one to speak the truth. I think he was a compassionate man--a fire and brimstone preacher when need be. Part of the great awakening. . . what was waking everyone up? The idea that because God is love--he is not Holy--because God is merciful He is not just? No, these preachers during that time preached about the holiness of God. A very scary concept to a sinner. Or it should be.
The bible states we were God's ENEMIES. Unconverted--we are enemies of God.
Roman's 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
His love for us is not the issue. . . ever. It is our love for Him. . . as He is. When we refuse His authority over us. . . we are refusing Him. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. It has no affection for God, it is cold toward Him--angry with Him.
God represents the worst kind of threat to our sinful nature. The kind backed with authority.
What is it we did with Emmanuel(God is with us)? What did we do with Jesus? We crucified Him. It is no different now. . . we would kill Him. . . as natural men that is what we do. . . try to kill God off. All you have to do is look around. . . how hard so many fight to rid the universe of God.
We want to rule over our own sinful lives. God stands in our way. But. . . why?
Because of who God is. . . Holy. Pure. Perfect. Good. Just. Sovereign. These attributes of God are what we are to love above ALL things. We are to submit our own will to His authority.
In making Him in the image we want Him to be we are rejecting Him as He is.. . . . We are in control of our lives and His being. It is human nature.
The bible clearly tells us about human nature.
Understanding just a bit about our nature. . . God's attributes and the reality of what happened on that Cross can change lives. For eternity.
It is so important that the gospel of Christ be preached.
Thanks for your post RG--it was powerful.
Amen to Your post and Thank You! ((((((((((((Geisha)))))))))))))))!!
I would want everyone saved as GOD wants everyone saved
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
i believe the scripture i posted says
like who are you to complain about what i god do
do you think anyone can out smart god?
is there any thing impossible
and why would god save some and not others?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Bear in mind that:GOD has requirements and prerequisite to standing approved before Him
cause of something that a person does?
or is it god who does the saving?
if someone can do something for salvation
What can any man alone do to save himself but what GOD decree's Cman???????
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
then they did it and not god
no mercy-no grace
Here is some of God's grace and mercy Cman.
GOD's further grace and Mercy can be found although out His Word according to His Will NOT my will and NOT your will BUT ONLY GOD's Will Amen!!!
His Greatest Grace and mercy is our Salvation. All things are according to GOD's Perfect Unvarying and Unchangeable Will!!!! Conversely NOT inaccorrdance with man's imperfect varying and changeable will
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [it is] God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [it is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
is it possible that the seed example is correct for each person
Scripture and verse and example Cman, on that Please????
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I CHANGE NOT; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom IS No VARIABLENESS, NEITHER SHADOW OF TURNING.
God doesn't change and you cannot change Him!!!
If God were constantly changing (AND HE IS NOT) and has no concern about the varied doctrines, philosophies, pluralistic and universalistic thoughts of men then what do we need him for as we can surely at least evolve to His level in our thoughts doctrines and ways.....NOT...NOT EVER?????
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Answer the questions I posted in my posts please Cman and build your scriptural case not your personal opinion please!!!
God was the Lord of the Old Testament but He was not their Father.
Those who are born of Him He will not destroy. There may be some who choose to not be born of His seed. They destroy themselves by that choice. He is my Father I am His child. He is not this big bad evil dude waiting to bonk me on the head and turn His back on me if I do something wrong. That is never once recorded of Him to His children in the Church Epistles. He is always there, He is always in me, He is always waiting with open arms if I go askew. And daggummit, He is there if I just need a big ole hug and a pat on the head. That is just how close and real my Father is. The Lord Jesus be taking me by the hand a lot of times. Show me, help me, teach me........that is how real He is.
He knows me. He knows how I grew up and why I think and act the way I do sometimes. He knows my every heartbeat and thought. He knows my struggles. He doesn't beat the soup out of me or turn His back on me if I don't get it "right" all of the time. Father doesn't do that to anybody. He knows why people are hurt, why they think the way they do, why they are lost, seeking, asking, mislead etc.
And you know what I have learned, Father does meet His children where they are. And He does meet the lost and hurt and unsaved ravaged person where they are. Father loving God understands and His heart is, I think, turned more toward those who have had the hell beat out of them and can not find the way out. Jesus Christ knows above all what it is like to walk on this earth.
I think of the Lord Jesus quoting Psalms 22 while hanging on the cross. With His last breaths He was saying to Israel, "HELLO!!!!! IT IS ME!!!!! YOU KNOW THE ONE PROPHESIED ABOUT!!!! I AM THE ONE!!!!! He was giving them every last chance to realize He was their Promised Messiah. Everything that was done against Him all His life He was still fighting for them and loving them. He didn't condemn them because they didn't meet Him on His terms.
He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
It is the goodness of God that leads people to repentenance.
That is my soapbox for the day on this thread. Actually, for my entire life.
Kimberly,
I am curious. . . do you consider yourself a Christian? Follower of Christ? I read an exchange you had with another poster Jen-o and I thought you said you never ever called yourself a Christian? Could you clarify this for me please? :)
I think that what cman is saying is that salvation is not a choice. . . . therefore all will be saved. He is speaking about the doctrine of election. If you look at the 5 points of Calvinism. . . he can make a case. I disagree that all will be saved. . . because of the contrary scriptures, the Holiness of God and the magnitude of the sacrfice. I do understand why he says what he does though. It is Christian Universalism. . . . a compelling case can be made, but it has been argued and fairly debunked.
No, God is not some evil dude waiting to bonk you on the head if you do something wrong. I don't believe anyone has said so. . . The point RG and I are trying to make is that God is Holy. What makes it any less scary that God killed the son's of Aaron? Because they were not His sons? He created them? They were His priests. Moses told Aaron to not even mourn his own sons. Why is that okay?
Because God was just in His actions. . . .no one could speak against it. He was right. Don't you think Aaron loved his sons?
Psalm 119:75
75: I know, O Jehovah, that thy judgments are righteous, And that in faithfulness thou hast afflicted me.
Psalm 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he pleased.
Deuteronomy 32:39
39 See now that I, even I, am he, And there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Hebrews 12: 5 . . . and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.
11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness.
We are children of God Kimberly . . . when we are reconciled to God through the blood of Christ by faith in Him. As children we are to love our father and His ways. Partakers of His holiness. . . Not carve out our own ways.
Job 40:2
2 Shall he that cavilleth(fault finder) contend with the Almighty? He that argueth with God, let him answer it.
Life is not about us or our troubles, or where we are in our struggles. What issues we wrestle with. . . As a Christian--it is about God. . . . awesome and wonderful God. He does meet you where you are and does love you with a pure intense love, no doubt. He does come for the broken and weary. Then He transforms us. Shows Himself to us in His glory. It is no longer about me. . . how could it possibly be so when I have seen a glimpse of the glory of God?
What makes that reconciliation possible? How do we even see that we need reconciliation with a God we are enemies with? It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. How can we recognize that good when our hearts are set against it? Don't we first have to hear of the Holiness of God to know that we are sinners? I'm okay--your okay? Our own ways right in our sight.
Confronted with true "Rightness" we have something to gauge our own sinful nature against. The Holiness of God should do it. That goodness and pureness that RG spoke of.
People don't want to look at it. . . . let's reason it away. There is no God. Or if there is--He is love so I am covered because God would never destroy anyone. We will all be saved. If there is a hell then God is mean. . . No, God is just.
Again. . . what does it mean that God is Holy and just and who can speak against what He does. . . He is Right or Righteous.
Jesus was a man of sorrows. Isaiah tells us this.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.
He was betrayed by one of His own. . . rejected, grieved, murdered. People turned away from Him. . . .
Many stll hide their faces from Him. Still reject Him. Many do NOT esteem Him.
He wept for the one's who rejected Him. He knew what it meant. He had called Israel. . . loved them. . . chose them. . . was patience with them. . . protected them. . . fed them. . . guided them. He was their God.
When He came and dwelt among them. . . they killed Him. The Pharisee's could not see who He was--right there in front of their faces. . . THEY were right in their own sight. They wanted to be rid of Him because He posed a threat to their way.
It is no different today. There are those who accept Him and those who reject Him. Some devise their own way to heaven. . . circumventing the only real Way.
IT all starts with a recognition of who God is. . . He is Holy.
I did forget to add this. Jesus sacrifice is big enough to cover the sins of the entire world. No doubt about it at ALL.
That doesn't mean that each person is forgiven. . . it is by faith we are saved.
When God looks upon those who believe on His son. . . they are forgiven. . . Jesus suffered His wrath(Yes God has wrath)---His sacrfice is amazing--too awesome to put into words. . . . the love. . . it is life altering.
But, there is only one way to God--through Jesus Christ. The price was paid. . . we have to accept Him to be reconciled.
Did God help you when you had a different perspective of him?
Was it your perspective that changed or God? or both?
I am that I am he said.
Or I will become.
Does this involve both you and God?
Or is God some rigid bastard who can't be with you at any point of perspective yours and his.
Do they then become one? To function?
asking questions....
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Yes Cman we can change and we can grow!!! We can regress too!!! We can believe whatever we want to and we can justify whatever we believe. we certainly can change our views of GOD!!! we have been given free will to do so by GOD
GOD is perfect HE DOESN'T HAVE TO CHANGE...HE IS RIGHT HE IS RIGHTEOUS HE HAS NO NEED TO CHANGE!!!
And as we change, does our view of God change?
Did God help you when you had a different perspective of him?
Was it your perspective that changed or God? or both?
I am that I am he said.
Or I will become.
Does this involve both you and God?
Or is God some rigid bastard who can't be with you at any point of perspective yours and his.
Do they then become one? To function?
asking questions....
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
is this a plan or does it change as needed?
If God's love is unconditional we would not need saving. He would just love us all without any conditions regardless of how we acted or what we believed. Unconditional is after all totally
without any conditions. In fact then, why would we even need God to love us unconditionally? What I do believe we do need, is to understand God's word and his attributes as well as all of his conditions and his ways;
A Directive of God is to study His word in order to know Him and what His will is: 2 Tim 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I also believe God would state that His love is unconditional; if it were so.
"The use of the term, “the unconditional love of God" has roots in hyper-Calvinistic ideology. Theologians who created and espoused the man made doctrine of fatalistic predestination also infected the church with the notion that God's love has no conditions attached to it. This is a convenient doctrine, for it places all of the responsibility in God's hands, while denying that mankind has any part in his or her salvation"
"The principles of Calvinism can be summarized in the well-known acronym T.U.L.I.P:
T= Total depravity of all mankind.
U= Unconditional election (i.e. God chooses us to be saved or damned; it is His unconditional election of the redeemed).
L= Limited atonement (i.e. Salvation is limited to those God selects to be saved).
I= Irresistible grace (i.e. God's grace is supposedly so irresistible that the elect cannot help but to choose it).
P= Perseverance of the saints (i.e. The "Elect' must persevere in their predestined election).
One can easily see that the "U" representing "unconditional election" leads to the now popular phrase, "God's unconditional love."
"Those who quote Jhn 3:16 to prove the position that god loves everyone unconditionally forget the requirements placed on man by Him.
As you read Jhn 3:16-18, consider what God demands of those who want to experience His love.
Jhn 3:16-18:
For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
This and Rom 10: 9 & 10 state that God set up conditions in His word for mankind. Conditions for salvation, Forgiveness, for rewards and there are many other conditions throughout the bible and all its administrations too numerous to name.
God's Love is greater and higher and more enduring that we can understand:
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
His love is one attribute of God; His love is perfect as well as all the other attributes of God because He is perfect:
1 Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness.
Attributes of God and godliness:
Exd 3:14 - I am that I am..."
Rev 1:8 — "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
God is ever present and omniscient: all knowing
Eph 1:4 —"According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
Rev 19:6 — "...saying for the Lord God omnipotent reighneth.
" Omnipotent is all powerful.
Mal 3:6 — "I [am] the lord, I change not;..."
Psa 138: 2 —"I will worship toward thy holy temple and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and thy truth for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
Rom 11:33 - "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!"
An 3:16 — For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 10:4 — "Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."
These are merely a few of God's attributes that show his nature and his ways.
Attributes of God's love that we are to imitate:
Eph 5:1 — "Be ye therefore followers of God as dear children."
1 Jhn 4:18 - "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love
1 Cor 8:1-" ...charity edifieth"
1 Cor 13:1-13 & 13: 8 - "...charity never faileth"
1 Pe 4:8 — "Above all have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover a multitude of sins
God's love is perfect, edifying, enduring, never faileth, shall cover a multitude of sins. God know we are flesh he remembers our frame . He is merciful and kind; fore bearing and long suffering; wise, fair and just.
God eschews evil —
I Pe 3:11-20 (references the Flood of Genesis 6)
Psa 103:9 — "He will not always chide or keep his anger forever."
God all throughout his word does show his righteous anger (i.e. the flood in Genesis chapter 6. Where 8 souls were saved by water. And Acts 5:1-5 — concerning Ananias and Sapphira.)
Love without conditions is not perfect love; it is rather blanket acceptance.
God did not create man to hew out his own cisterns:
Jer 2:13 — For My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,[and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water." Cisterns are doctrines, ideologies and religions of man.
Romans Chapter 8 states and sets some of God's conditions of his love and salvation.
Spiritually we are perfect with the condition that we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
When we walk in the flesh as we often do we still often need to come to God and ask for His forgiveness...for not meeting His conditions and His ways. God always seems to endure and
forbear us in His unsearchable love. He is merciful and kind ... slow to anger He displays His conditions throughout His word.
1 Tim 4:1 &2 — " 1- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; 2 — Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
If God's love was unconditional these scriptures and many others would not matter. If God's love is unconditional why would we need God or Christ Jesus? God surely does greatly love us, beyond our comprehension; Partly, because of what Christ Jesus has done to make us acceptable to him. He brought our eternal life and restored our spiritual connect with God. God has as well loved us before the foundation of the world; but within His own set of conditions throughout all the ages.
I don't unconditionally love my old man nature; let alone anyone Else's, and I done believe God does either. That is why I needed God; His ways His love, His conditions, His word, and His salvation. Further,I will be rewarded with crowns and rewards as in accordance to my following his ways and conditions:
1Th 2:19 —"...crown of rejoicing..."; 2 Tim 4:8 — "...crown of righteousness..."; Jam 1:12 — "...crown of life..."; 1 Pe 5:4 — "...crown of glory...".
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it not subject to the law of is God, neither indeed can be
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If God's love is unconditional it would be unconditional for saint and sinner alike because he is "not a respecter of persons" and because "He so loved the world."
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye
shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time[are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also,
Rom 8:23 which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 but if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] he mind of the Spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
We still need intercession.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified and whom he justified, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shalt he not with him also freely give us
all. things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?[it is] God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [it is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
I believe that In this the Age of Grace we are the born-again sons and daughters of God. We still sin in the flesh; We are still loved and forgiven, but conditionally. God is not a respecter of persons and in all his ways He is fair and just. Vengeance is His.
If we do not ask rightly for forgiveness then we are not forgiven.
1 Jhn 1:9 — "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Phil 4:8 — "Finally Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, what so ever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, if [there be] any praise think on these things."
Truth is irrefutable. There are not twenty thousand true interpretations of an individual truth. Private interpretation is the removal of God's ways and conditions and is a hewing out of cisterns...which are man made doctrines, ideologies and religions.
This is not my opinion; Neither is it my point of view. This is what I know and believe as a workman of God's word.
if to be loved requires a 'condition' of the one loved
then it's not love
we are commanded to love
there is a love that burns all limits away
---
what is it to confess sin?
---
the vengeance is forgiveness
of a degree that has yet to be disclosed fully to me
but enough to see changes, and a new mind a new heart
it happens because it takes more then me to go through it
the love never stopped, never will....
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Pro12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.
Pro 21:2 Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
if it is No boundaries no control that you seek abandon GOD, Run Away from Him Try to Hide, for He authored all boundaries and controls. He is Perfect Righteous Just, and Loving. In fact if all the love of mankind was put together from the beginning of the world to the end of the world it could never come close to GOD's PURE and PERFECT LOVE!!! You cannot escape the Alpha and the Omega. GOD is all powerful and everywhere present. BUT YOU CAN PRETENT ANYTHING YOU WANT TO!!!
If You reject GOD's Righteousness and Justice and Lordship over You His workmanship His Vessels, His Clay then You reject GOD and are at enmity with Him. He gave us Free Will to chose: His Way or Your Way; Then you run out of options!!!!!!!
Teaching is instruction and we are to teach and instruct for a purpose:2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.
Pro 15:10 Correction [is] grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: [and] he that hateth reproof shall die.
Pro 10:17 He [is in] the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 4:1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
Pro 4:13 Take fast hold of instruction; let [her] not go: keep her; for she [is] thy life.
Pro 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Pro 5:23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.
Pro 6:23 For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 9:9 Give [instruction] to a wise [man], and he will be yet wiser: teach a just [man], and he will increase in learning.
Pro 10:17 He [is in] the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.
Pro 13:1 A wise son [heareth] his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
Pro 13:18 Poverty and shame [shall be to] him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.
Pro 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.
Pro 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
Pro 15:33 The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom; and before honour [is] humility.
Pro 16:22 Understanding [is] a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools [is] folly.
Pro 19:20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.
Pro 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction [that causeth] to err from the words of knowledge.
Pro 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge. Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell [it] not; [also] wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Pro 24:32 Then I saw, [and] considered [it] well: I looked upon [it, and] received instruction.
Jer 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching [them], yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
Jer 35:13 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the LORD.
Eze 5:15 So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that [are] round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken [it].
Zep 3:7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, [and] corrupted all their doings.
Recommended Posts
DrWearWord
This seems to be saying (to me) that the people of Sodom and Gomorra were actually closer to the true God because their religious system was based upon faith…
Noah instituted a system based upon faith... Moses changed it to law, Moses was also forbidden to enter the promised land, and he "denied the rock".
It seems to say that faith is superior to law.
That faith produces a society where homosexuality is accepted, "though not in excess", yet it was still closer to what "God" sees as "truth" in comparison to a society that has within it this "seed of law”. A society grown from law is too rigid and is not living and dynamic. Thus a society born solely of law cannot accurately represent the TRUE sexually enigmatic nature of God..
Edited by DrWearWordLink to comment
Share on other sites
kimberly
I like this i. e., saying what we think about a verse without being called posessed or tripped out or out of fellowship. Anyway...
cman, I think the answer you may be looking for is in the verses following verse 18.
DWW, Moses did not change anything to law, their Lord Jehovah changed it. The law was rigid only to those such as stated in vs 32. The Law had to come. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the Law.
"I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth." 3John 1:4
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
glad you like it this way kimberly
i have and will continue to consider the following verses as well as others
dww, interesting observation
and would add that homosexuality isn't necessarily what S and G was about
but more about the balance of the masculine and feminine qualities of the faith that is Holy and is Spirit
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Cman,
You, Kimberly, and Dr WW have really sparked my curiousity here. I know you were probably looking for a discussion on the doctrine of election, but I would really love to know something.
If this will derail this thread too much just ignore my query, but I really wonder when I read posts like the one's above. . . what do you truly believe is the Holiness of God ?
Habakkuk 1:13: "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil, and you cannot tolerate wrong."
The zeal of God burns for the holiness of his great name. Ezekiel 36:22, 23:
Say to the house of Israel, thus says the Lord God: "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations . . . and the nations will know that I am the Lord, says the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
For I am the LORD I change not . . .
We are saved by grace for a reason.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
We are the Holiness that house the Spirit. The temple of the living God.
All are elected, All will and have and are moving toward glory in one way or another imo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrWearWord
VPW said God tried (was it three times?) to discourage Moses from perusing the law. Though I have looked and cannot recall the actual scriptures he based this assumption on.
Then, If Moses and "God’s" law is so right on then why did God suddenly decide later according to the prophets that he never needed the sacrifices and detested the blood of goats and lambs? Why did God also punish Moses? For having to rewrite ten short commandments? Isn’t that a bit harsh? Or was it Moses treatment of those of strange “faith” who opposed his strict interpretation of God being merely law?
Does that not cast doubt on the "authority" of Moses' God, and Moses' own prophetic character and motives. Moses said “God told me this and God told me that…” It is quite possible Hammurabi gave Moses his laws and not “God“. It seems odd also that Abraham also found the monotheistic ambiguously sexual God from out of Mesopotamia too. And then we end up with a legal system the Bible calls broken and weak then Paul the Apostle comes on the scene and says “God told me this and God told me that”. I consider the Bible is at this point “crying wolf.” Is this not an insult to our intelligence? Since the prophets of old passed off truth for so long it seems the school master did not know his subjects. And now we are supposed to take the contradictory word and “law” of Paul another “prophet of God” simply on face value? Paul seems in need of Prozac and after all that Christian killing he suddenly has a change of heart and mind?
Homosexuals are often portrayed as weak but the Bible says it was actually the law that was weak.
I know my synopsis I left yesterday of the last verses in Romans 9 is weak itself. I wanted to clarify my remarks yesterday but my head was too tired.
It seems that both faith and law were inadequate and the new testament is actually where the spirit of faith and the law are preserved into a new torah.
One might ask why a NEW torah if the old one is just fine? Didn’t the prophets make enough “laws”? Jesus says a new torah I give you.
Not a new law on top of all of the other laws but a new LAW that would prove the other laws and faiths inferior.
For this new law is new birth and an incorruptible seed where the law alone became corrupted and did not remain true. But through faith and spirit a new law that is more perfect emerges and is possible from the heart.
For with spirit alone there is no knowledge and with knowledge alone there is no spirit.
The spirit has no mind of its own but teaches what God says. It seems we are then left again with our own ambiguity and with an ambiguous deity.
So either system was weak (faith and law) and only in the realization of the equally ambiguous Christ Jesus is a new Torah of unity born.
I am reminded of liberals and conservatives today. It seems that this faith and law are again separated. And to be independent or centrists is not actually the same as living the law of liberty.
When one realizes that both law and liberty are an oxymoron and then see the brilliance of “the law of liberty” then we have liberty though the perfect incorruptible (sinless) spirit and we have law, the revelation and knowledge of God through Christ Jesus. Thus, to walk solely by faith OR law is, walking by the flesh.
Even though God and Jesus are still ambiguous it would seen the new testament takes from God his jealous nature and restores an image of love. Leaves one to wonder then, who was Moses’ God really? Was Moses God partially Lucifer exercising his dominion over the earth that Genesis states he stole from Adam, walking to and fro and “chums” with God (as in Job)? Or was the creation, flood story and law of Moses possibly stolen/borrowed from the Sumerians?
This love is also an oxymoron... when compared to many of the laws and also an oxymoron to faith without boundaries.
So how can the Word of God be the will of God when faith and law are partially derived from the spirit?
Even more ambiguity… So is the written word or the word in the flesh the will of God?
Again then we continue the logic that says they are both oxymorons. Thus born out of same idea that the word and the spirit are like law and faith then they are united likewise in the law of liberty, otherwise they are diametrically opposed powers.
Through the word and the spirit, the old laws are bent to conform to love’s moderate demands and faith is tamed to honor the true God in charity.
It is interesting to note that neither the spirit or the written word alone are sufficient for salvation. The written word alone cannot compare to the spirit's presence, but the spirit’s presence is illuminated and energized by yes, the ambiguity of the written word of God.
Edited by DrWearWordLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I apologize cman--I was not clear. What I was wondering about. . . . was. . . . what does it mean to you when you read that God is Holy?
The reason I ask is that you seem to be a bit of a Universal Reconciliationist.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrWearWord
We would all be in a mess if God wasn't holy.
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
God's plan and direction for man to obtain righteousness, sanctification and salvation are clearly and absolutely defined by GOD on his terms and not man's terms, viewpoints and philosophies and self proclaimed and professed doctrines. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for hewing out their own doctrines and perverting His ways.
Jesus Christ instructing His disciples before sending them out to preach and teach Salvation and the Truths and Holiness of GOD:
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah they had free will choice to chose what they believed and acted upon. Man can only be close to GOD on God's terms. His answer to their terms was their complete and utter destruction. GOD doesn't accept man's pluralistic and universal viewpoint He allows them as He in His Love freely gave us free will choice to accept His Will and Ways or Hew out our own. No one ultimately will win standing against GOD. His mercy and Love is great and vast but He justice and equity is kept in abeyance for a season...not forever
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
God is absolutely Holy in all aspects! He is thoroughly and throughly clean, purely pure, Unblemished, blameless, and without ANY perverseness.
In Him is no darkness nor shadow of turning. When one hews out his own doctrines or perverts his own way and opposes GOD, GOD gives him up eventually to his own devices and allows his own blindness to remain, but only after GOD in His great Love and Mercy has pleaded and constrained each one personally to return unto Him; just as Abraham besought GOD to save any righteous man in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house. (...for our learning indeed)
He who hath eyes to see, sees and sees GOD. He who hath ears to hear, hears and hears GOD!!! Understanding GOD is by choice and deliberate effort and simple to the willing:
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Rainbowsgirl,
Wow, thanks for that powerful post. There is a famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards(From my neck of the woods)called "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"-----as I have been reading along here lately. . . I think. . . as RC Sprouls says. . . "God in the Hands of Angry Sinners."
You so wonderfully pointed out that God IS holy and pure.
I wonder if we truly see who God is and love Him as He is--when we carve out doctrines . . . . attribute them to Him, but they actually run contrary to His nature.
Jonathan Edwards would not be too popular in our PC pluralistic world today. But, isn't it love which motivates one to speak the truth. I think he was a compassionate man--a fire and brimstone preacher when need be. Part of the great awakening. . . what was waking everyone up? The idea that because God is love--he is not Holy--because God is merciful He is not just? No, these preachers during that time preached about the holiness of God. A very scary concept to a sinner. Or it should be.
The bible states we were God's ENEMIES. Unconverted--we are enemies of God.
Roman's 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
His love for us is not the issue. . . ever. It is our love for Him. . . as He is. When we refuse His authority over us. . . we are refusing Him. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. It has no affection for God, it is cold toward Him--angry with Him.
God represents the worst kind of threat to our sinful nature. The kind backed with authority.
What is it we did with Emmanuel(God is with us)? What did we do with Jesus? We crucified Him. It is no different now. . . we would kill Him. . . as natural men that is what we do. . . try to kill God off. All you have to do is look around. . . how hard so many fight to rid the universe of God.
We want to rule over our own sinful lives. God stands in our way. But. . . why?
Because of who God is. . . Holy. Pure. Perfect. Good. Just. Sovereign. These attributes of God are what we are to love above ALL things. We are to submit our own will to His authority.
In making Him in the image we want Him to be we are rejecting Him as He is.. . . . We are in control of our lives and His being. It is human nature.
The bible clearly tells us about human nature.
Understanding just a bit about our nature. . . God's attributes and the reality of what happened on that Cross can change lives. For eternity.
It is so important that the gospel of Christ be preached.
Thanks for your post RG--it was powerful.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Where is God?
Heaven? and Hell? -the scriptures say.
Where is heaven and hell?
dww, I don't claim any label at all.
Some are not aware of what is, has been, and will be.
Which is now, if it can be seen. Inpart Certainly, it's unlimited....
To say that someone is not being 'saved' would be a guess at best.
There is a process and many process' and happenings both now and after death.
Were the people of Sodom and Gomorah going to be saved?
One would also have to know of what happened after there deaths.
As well as anyone that was involved in that story, good or bad as we see it.
Geisha, I don't know what a Universal Reconciliationist is.
all I know is justice is not as it seems or as people see it sometimes.
Just think if everyone was forgiven.
Having faced their things needed to be forgiven of,
and other things going up in smoke without notice.
What would it be like?
Could this present world take it?
Not likely.
Only if ALL the bad was burned from the beginning for ALL.
What if there was a new heaven and earth,
even now that we can't see yet?
Which I think heaven and earth refers to individuals.
What would it take to get one thinking.
Some good and bad.
Some mercy and hardness now,
only to pry open the eyes to see.
There are those with mercy and those with hardness.
Does an individual have both mercy and hardness of heart as well?
Could it be possible that these things work together for a purpose?
So I talk too much...
Just to consider....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Sorry dww, I'm not sure I addressed your comments well.
But what I said to you and geisha is me talking to anyone listening i suppose.
What's that verse about 'if in this life only we have hope' we are in bad shape, or something like that. I'm sure anyone could look it up.
That tells me there is another life for us and I suspect it to be a bit different. And that this life is not the only chance we have to be saved or whatever anyone wants to call it. I think it's happened already and happening without notice, and to see it is possible now in reality. Glimpses, perhaps many days and nights of being shown.
If we just look at what we see physically and not consider what is not seen then we are in bad shape for sure.
If all there is is what we can see physically then why can we have thoughts about things not seen?
Are thoughts seen?
And the things not seen are what we are to look at.
Kind of funny huh?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
kimberly
God was the Lord of the Old Testament but He was not their Father.
Those who are born of Him He will not destroy. There may be some who choose to not be born of His seed. They destroy themselves by that choice. He is my Father I am His child. He is not this big bad evil dude waiting to bonk me on the head and turn His back on me if I do something wrong. That is never once recorded of Him to His children in the Church Epistles. He is always there, He is always in me, He is always waiting with open arms if I go askew. And daggummit, He is there if I just need a big ole hug and a pat on the head. That is just how close and real my Father is. The Lord Jesus be taking me by the hand a lot of times. Show me, help me, teach me........that is how real He is.
He knows me. He knows how I grew up and why I think and act the way I do sometimes. He knows my every heartbeat and thought. He knows my struggles. He doesn't beat the soup out of me or turn His back on me if I don't get it "right" all of the time. Father doesn't do that to anybody. He knows why people are hurt, why they think the way they do, why they are lost, seeking, asking, mislead etc.
And you know what I have learned, Father does meet His children where they are. And He does meet the lost and hurt and unsaved ravaged person where they are. Father loving God understands and His heart is, I think, turned more toward those who have had the hell beat out of them and can not find the way out. Jesus Christ knows above all what it is like to walk on this earth.
I think of the Lord Jesus quoting Psalms 22 while hanging on the cross. With His last breaths He was saying to Israel, "HELLO!!!!! IT IS ME!!!!! YOU KNOW THE ONE PROPHESIED ABOUT!!!! I AM THE ONE!!!!! He was giving them every last chance to realize He was their Promised Messiah. Everything that was done against Him all His life He was still fighting for them and loving them. He didn't condemn them because they didn't meet Him on His terms.
He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
It is the goodness of God that leads people to repentenance.
That is my soapbox for the day on this thread. Actually, for my entire life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Scripture and verse Please!!!
, Where in GOD's word does it say that anyone or everyone is saved no matter what they think and or do???
Where does it say that ones own private interpretations, doctrines and twisting of sound doctrine along with everyone elses right to do so is acceptable to GOD???
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
It doesn't as it is contrary to sound doctrine and GOD is not a designer GOD ...mankinds personal Ken Doll to use to suit your personal thoughts needs and desires...Wake Up and study His Word and His Will !!!
You won't find GOD or His Word to back you!!!
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1Cr 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
Pro 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.
Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.
Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Deu 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, [so] the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Bear in mind that:GOD has requirements and prerequisite to standing approved before Him
Amen to Your post and Thank You! ((((((((((((Geisha)))))))))))))))!!
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
cman
why would you not want everyone saved RG?
i believe the scripture i posted says
like who are you to complain about what i god do
do you think anyone can out smart god?
is there any thing impossible
and why would god save some and not others?
cause of something that a person does?
or is it god who does the saving?
if someone can do something for salvation
then they did it and not god
no mercy-no grace
is it possible that the seed example is correct for each person
that it is within each person
though dead until the time for it to sprout?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
God never changes changing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Scripture and verse and example Cman, on that Please????
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I CHANGE NOT; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom IS No VARIABLENESS, NEITHER SHADOW OF TURNING.
God doesn't change and you cannot change Him!!!
If God were constantly changing (AND HE IS NOT) and has no concern about the varied doctrines, philosophies, pluralistic and universalistic thoughts of men then what do we need him for as we can surely at least evolve to His level in our thoughts doctrines and ways.....NOT...NOT EVER?????
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Answer the questions I posted in my posts please Cman and build your scriptural case not your personal opinion please!!!
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Kimberly,
I am curious. . . do you consider yourself a Christian? Follower of Christ? I read an exchange you had with another poster Jen-o and I thought you said you never ever called yourself a Christian? Could you clarify this for me please? :)
I think that what cman is saying is that salvation is not a choice. . . . therefore all will be saved. He is speaking about the doctrine of election. If you look at the 5 points of Calvinism. . . he can make a case. I disagree that all will be saved. . . because of the contrary scriptures, the Holiness of God and the magnitude of the sacrfice. I do understand why he says what he does though. It is Christian Universalism. . . . a compelling case can be made, but it has been argued and fairly debunked.
No, God is not some evil dude waiting to bonk you on the head if you do something wrong. I don't believe anyone has said so. . . The point RG and I are trying to make is that God is Holy. What makes it any less scary that God killed the son's of Aaron? Because they were not His sons? He created them? They were His priests. Moses told Aaron to not even mourn his own sons. Why is that okay?
Because God was just in His actions. . . .no one could speak against it. He was right. Don't you think Aaron loved his sons?
Psalm 119:75
75: I know, O Jehovah, that thy judgments are righteous, And that in faithfulness thou hast afflicted me.
Psalm 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he pleased.
Deuteronomy 32:39
39 See now that I, even I, am he, And there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Hebrews 12: 5 . . . and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.
11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness.
We are children of God Kimberly . . . when we are reconciled to God through the blood of Christ by faith in Him. As children we are to love our father and His ways. Partakers of His holiness. . . Not carve out our own ways.
Job 40:2
2 Shall he that cavilleth(fault finder) contend with the Almighty? He that argueth with God, let him answer it.
Life is not about us or our troubles, or where we are in our struggles. What issues we wrestle with. . . As a Christian--it is about God. . . . awesome and wonderful God. He does meet you where you are and does love you with a pure intense love, no doubt. He does come for the broken and weary. Then He transforms us. Shows Himself to us in His glory. It is no longer about me. . . how could it possibly be so when I have seen a glimpse of the glory of God?
What makes that reconciliation possible? How do we even see that we need reconciliation with a God we are enemies with? It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. How can we recognize that good when our hearts are set against it? Don't we first have to hear of the Holiness of God to know that we are sinners? I'm okay--your okay? Our own ways right in our sight.
Confronted with true "Rightness" we have something to gauge our own sinful nature against. The Holiness of God should do it. That goodness and pureness that RG spoke of.
People don't want to look at it. . . . let's reason it away. There is no God. Or if there is--He is love so I am covered because God would never destroy anyone. We will all be saved. If there is a hell then God is mean. . . No, God is just.
Again. . . what does it mean that God is Holy and just and who can speak against what He does. . . He is Right or Righteous.
Jesus was a man of sorrows. Isaiah tells us this.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.
He was betrayed by one of His own. . . rejected, grieved, murdered. People turned away from Him. . . .
Many stll hide their faces from Him. Still reject Him. Many do NOT esteem Him.
He wept for the one's who rejected Him. He knew what it meant. He had called Israel. . . loved them. . . chose them. . . was patience with them. . . protected them. . . fed them. . . guided them. He was their God.
When He came and dwelt among them. . . they killed Him. The Pharisee's could not see who He was--right there in front of their faces. . . THEY were right in their own sight. They wanted to be rid of Him because He posed a threat to their way.
It is no different today. There are those who accept Him and those who reject Him. Some devise their own way to heaven. . . circumventing the only real Way.
IT all starts with a recognition of who God is. . . He is Holy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I did forget to add this. Jesus sacrifice is big enough to cover the sins of the entire world. No doubt about it at ALL.
That doesn't mean that each person is forgiven. . . it is by faith we are saved.
When God looks upon those who believe on His son. . . they are forgiven. . . Jesus suffered His wrath(Yes God has wrath)---His sacrfice is amazing--too awesome to put into words. . . . the love. . . it is life altering.
But, there is only one way to God--through Jesus Christ. The price was paid. . . we have to accept Him to be reconciled.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
We change don't we RainbowsGirl?
And as we change, does our view of God change?
Did God help you when you had a different perspective of him?
Was it your perspective that changed or God? or both?
I am that I am he said.
Or I will become.
Does this involve both you and God?
Or is God some rigid bastard who can't be with you at any point of perspective yours and his.
Do they then become one? To function?
asking questions....
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
is this a plan or does it change as needed?
Edited by cmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
If God's love is unconditional we would not need saving. He would just love us all without any conditions regardless of how we acted or what we believed. Unconditional is after all totally
without any conditions. In fact then, why would we even need God to love us unconditionally? What I do believe we do need, is to understand God's word and his attributes as well as all of his conditions and his ways;
A Directive of God is to study His word in order to know Him and what His will is: 2 Tim 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I also believe God would state that His love is unconditional; if it were so.
"The use of the term, “the unconditional love of God" has roots in hyper-Calvinistic ideology. Theologians who created and espoused the man made doctrine of fatalistic predestination also infected the church with the notion that God's love has no conditions attached to it. This is a convenient doctrine, for it places all of the responsibility in God's hands, while denying that mankind has any part in his or her salvation"
"The principles of Calvinism can be summarized in the well-known acronym T.U.L.I.P:
T= Total depravity of all mankind.
U= Unconditional election (i.e. God chooses us to be saved or damned; it is His unconditional election of the redeemed).
L= Limited atonement (i.e. Salvation is limited to those God selects to be saved).
I= Irresistible grace (i.e. God's grace is supposedly so irresistible that the elect cannot help but to choose it).
P= Perseverance of the saints (i.e. The "Elect' must persevere in their predestined election).
One can easily see that the "U" representing "unconditional election" leads to the now popular phrase, "God's unconditional love."
"Those who quote Jhn 3:16 to prove the position that god loves everyone unconditionally forget the requirements placed on man by Him.
As you read Jhn 3:16-18, consider what God demands of those who want to experience His love.
Jhn 3:16-18:
For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/unconditional.htm
This and Rom 10: 9 & 10 state that God set up conditions in His word for mankind. Conditions for salvation, Forgiveness, for rewards and there are many other conditions throughout the bible and all its administrations too numerous to name.
God's Love is greater and higher and more enduring that we can understand:
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
His love is one attribute of God; His love is perfect as well as all the other attributes of God because He is perfect:
1 Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness.
Attributes of God and godliness:
Exd 3:14 - I am that I am..."
Rev 1:8 — "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
God is ever present and omniscient: all knowing
Eph 1:4 —"According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
Rev 19:6 — "...saying for the Lord God omnipotent reighneth.
" Omnipotent is all powerful.
Mal 3:6 — "I [am] the lord, I change not;..."
Psa 138: 2 —"I will worship toward thy holy temple and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and thy truth for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
Rom 11:33 - "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!"
An 3:16 — For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 10:4 — "Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."
These are merely a few of God's attributes that show his nature and his ways.
Attributes of God's love that we are to imitate:
Eph 5:1 — "Be ye therefore followers of God as dear children."
1 Jhn 4:18 - "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love
1 Cor 8:1-" ...charity edifieth"
1 Cor 13:1-13 & 13: 8 - "...charity never faileth"
1 Pe 4:8 — "Above all have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover a multitude of sins
God's love is perfect, edifying, enduring, never faileth, shall cover a multitude of sins. God know we are flesh he remembers our frame . He is merciful and kind; fore bearing and long suffering; wise, fair and just.
God eschews evil —
I Pe 3:11-20 (references the Flood of Genesis 6)
Psa 103:9 — "He will not always chide or keep his anger forever."
God all throughout his word does show his righteous anger (i.e. the flood in Genesis chapter 6. Where 8 souls were saved by water. And Acts 5:1-5 — concerning Ananias and Sapphira.)
Love without conditions is not perfect love; it is rather blanket acceptance.
God did not create man to hew out his own cisterns:
Jer 2:13 — For My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,[and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water." Cisterns are doctrines, ideologies and religions of man.
Romans Chapter 8 states and sets some of God's conditions of his love and salvation.
Spiritually we are perfect with the condition that we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
When we walk in the flesh as we often do we still often need to come to God and ask for His forgiveness...for not meeting His conditions and His ways. God always seems to endure and
forbear us in His unsearchable love. He is merciful and kind ... slow to anger He displays His conditions throughout His word.
1 Tim 4:1 &2 — " 1- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; 2 — Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
If God's love was unconditional these scriptures and many others would not matter. If God's love is unconditional why would we need God or Christ Jesus? God surely does greatly love us, beyond our comprehension; Partly, because of what Christ Jesus has done to make us acceptable to him. He brought our eternal life and restored our spiritual connect with God. God has as well loved us before the foundation of the world; but within His own set of conditions throughout all the ages.
I don't unconditionally love my old man nature; let alone anyone Else's, and I done believe God does either. That is why I needed God; His ways His love, His conditions, His word, and His salvation. Further,I will be rewarded with crowns and rewards as in accordance to my following his ways and conditions:
1Th 2:19 —"...crown of rejoicing..."; 2 Tim 4:8 — "...crown of righteousness..."; Jam 1:12 — "...crown of life..."; 1 Pe 5:4 — "...crown of glory...".
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it not subject to the law of is God, neither indeed can be
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If God's love is unconditional it would be unconditional for saint and sinner alike because he is "not a respecter of persons" and because "He so loved the world."
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye
shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time[are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also,
Rom 8:23 which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 but if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] he mind of the Spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
We still need intercession.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified and whom he justified, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shalt he not with him also freely give us
all. things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?[it is] God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [it is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
I believe that In this the Age of Grace we are the born-again sons and daughters of God. We still sin in the flesh; We are still loved and forgiven, but conditionally. God is not a respecter of persons and in all his ways He is fair and just. Vengeance is His.
If we do not ask rightly for forgiveness then we are not forgiven.
1 Jhn 1:9 — "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Phil 4:8 — "Finally Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, what so ever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, if [there be] any praise think on these things."
Truth is irrefutable. There are not twenty thousand true interpretations of an individual truth. Private interpretation is the removal of God's ways and conditions and is a hewing out of cisterns...which are man made doctrines, ideologies and religions.
This is not my opinion; Neither is it my point of view. This is what I know and believe as a workman of God's word.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
if to be loved requires a 'condition' of the one loved
then it's not love
we are commanded to love
there is a love that burns all limits away
---
what is it to confess sin?
---
the vengeance is forgiveness
of a degree that has yet to be disclosed fully to me
but enough to see changes, and a new mind a new heart
it happens because it takes more then me to go through it
the love never stopped, never will....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Pro12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.
Pro 21:2 Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
if it is No boundaries no control that you seek abandon GOD, Run Away from Him Try to Hide, for He authored all boundaries and controls. He is Perfect Righteous Just, and Loving. In fact if all the love of mankind was put together from the beginning of the world to the end of the world it could never come close to GOD's PURE and PERFECT LOVE!!! You cannot escape the Alpha and the Omega. GOD is all powerful and everywhere present. BUT YOU CAN PRETENT ANYTHING YOU WANT TO!!!
If You reject GOD's Righteousness and Justice and Lordship over You His workmanship His Vessels, His Clay then You reject GOD and are at enmity with Him. He gave us Free Will to chose: His Way or Your Way; Then you run out of options!!!!!!!
Teaching is instruction and we are to teach and instruct for a purpose: 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.
Pro 15:10 Correction [is] grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: [and] he that hateth reproof shall die.
Pro 10:17 He [is in] the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 4:1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
Pro 4:13 Take fast hold of instruction; let [her] not go: keep her; for she [is] thy life.
Pro 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Pro 5:23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.
Pro 6:23 For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 9:9 Give [instruction] to a wise [man], and he will be yet wiser: teach a just [man], and he will increase in learning.
Pro 10:17 He [is in] the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.
Pro 13:1 A wise son [heareth] his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
Pro 13:18 Poverty and shame [shall be to] him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.
Pro 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.
Pro 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
Pro 15:33 The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom; and before honour [is] humility.
Pro 16:22 Understanding [is] a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools [is] folly.
Pro 19:20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.
Pro 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction [that causeth] to err from the words of knowledge.
Pro 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge. Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell [it] not; [also] wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Pro 24:32 Then I saw, [and] considered [it] well: I looked upon [it, and] received instruction.
Jer 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching [them], yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
Jer 35:13 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the LORD.
Eze 5:15 So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that [are] round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken [it].
Zep 3:7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, [and] corrupted all their doings.
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.