What is this prayer supposed to accomplish? Cause my free will to be overridden? Sweep away some supposed fog or veil that is preventing me from seeing the truth?
What would you think if a Witch told you that they were casting a spell to get you to reject Christianity and embrace the craft?
First, witches don't shock me. . . what they do. . . practice. . . . believe. . . .doesn't have the shock value it might for other Christians. . . Either way. . . It is a moot point. . . it is not going to happen. . . and it wouldn't really bother me if some misguided whitch did cast a spell. . .
Now, let me answer your first question by posing one of mine own. If I actually. . . wholeheartedly. . . without doubt and trepidation believe the gospel of Christ. . . and actually believe within my deepest core. . . that Jesus is the only way to God. . . that there is eternal consequences to rejecting Him. . . why would I NOT tell you about this. . . make every effort to ensure you hear. . . and pray to the God I believe in. . . for your soul.
. . . Your unbelief in no way invalidates my belief. . . it puts us at cross purposes. . . something the bible clearly covers.
Repecting me as an adult equal(which may not be the case, perhaps pagan/ unbelievers etc are not viewed as equals by some Christians--certainly not in our TWI backgrounds-- 'equals' means that my choices are respected. If there is a constant view and 'push' to change me--my beliefs, my habits, whatever, it to me implies a lack of respect. Not love.
To me it is a matter of boundary hopping. While your beliefs are precious to you, when dealing with others it is not all about you. While we only interact on a forum it is not that big a deal, but if an aquintance constantly sought to change me to their religion I would draw a firm boundary line with them--and have.
Being 'opposed' to other religions (or other Christian doctrines) is in my opinion the great weakness and danger of many Christian doctrines/Churches. I view that attitude as ultimately dividing communities, families, causing undo pain and division between those that conform and those that don't, to win a soul(a belief--soul--that I don't hold). Christianity as a sword to divide has no positive affect that I perceive.
Repecting me as an adult equal(which may not be the case, perhaps pagan/ unbelievers etc are not viewed as equals by some Christians--certainly not in our TWI backgrounds-- 'equals' means that my choices are respected. If there is a constant view and 'push' to change me--my beliefs, my habits, whatever, it to me implies a lack of respect. Not love.
To me it is a matter of boundary hopping. While your beliefs are precious to you, when dealing with others it is not all about you. While we only interact on a forum it is not that big a deal, but if an aquintance constantly sought to change me to their religion I would draw a firm boundary line with them--and have.
Being 'opposed' to other religions (or other Christian doctrines) is in my opinion the great weakness and danger of many Christian doctrines/Churches. I view that attitude as ultimately dividing communities, families, causing undo pain and division between those that conform and those that don't, to win a soul(a belief--soul--that I don't hold). Christianity as a sword to divide has no positive affect that I perceive.
My belief system is not about me at all. . . perhaps I don't make that clear. . . it is about Jesus. . . but you seem overly concerned with that belief system somehow encroaching upon yours.
While speaking of DOCTRINAL issues in a DOCTRINAL forum on an ex-cult site in a thread about the bible, Jesus, or prayer. . . may or may not seem like boundry hopping to you. . . I must internally question that logic.
You reject Christianity as your faith. You clearly have articulated that you stand by your words. . . with no fear or trepidation. I CAN respect that. Got it. . .
I articulate my faith. . . what you believe . . . you have articulated. . . I can respect your choice, but don't have to repect your faith as it runs contrary to what I truly believe. That means Bramble. . . my entire---complete---and all encompassing world view.
An objective truth. Meaning. . . truth with a corresponding object. . . which by its very nature rejects all other opposing or alternate objects.
There you have it
Seems to me. . . you have a very difficult time respecting my choice. . . which appears to be offensive to you. . .no surprize. . . the bible speaks of this very thing.
I have NO desire to offer you or others who reject Him. . . the Holy things of God. You have made clear you don't want them. They are not FOR you. They do not belong to you. . They belong to those who believe on Him.
Am I clear enough?
Let me articulate with the words of Jesus. . .
"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
Just to add: It in no way is surprizing to me that you have an opinion about a faith and community you reject. . . but if you would take note. . . although I reject your faith. . . other than a clear rejection of it. . . I offer no insight into it or opinion of it. . . you are certainly free to participate in a conversation about the Christian faith and what you perceive its weakness or strength. . . I am free to wonder why you would?
Most Christian doctrines promoted in organized religion really suck anyway. Though they touch on a few things, it's not likely that any even see it. Including the speaker.
Oakspear and Bramble make more sense then this Jesus promoting doctrine. Of which for the most part Jesus is not understood as the man he was and is and the Christ he became and is. Jesus is shoved in without even knowing what he was talking about, did and taught by his life. Nor is it required to hear from God.
But it can be heard and understood if man's bs is shut down long enough for the Spirit/God/Christ/ or whatever is there to get a word in. Which takes being quiet on the inside for however long it takes to hear what is ready and willing and talking from within. And it takes time to even figure out what is heard, which needs more listening.
Then your own efforts can be seen for what they have provided.
Others can help inspire, but not dictate anyone's thoughts/beliefs/actions or results.
As I recently heard, we have a built in ability to discern.
If one is honest enough to be honest with themselves.
I can see it, and have, just thought I'd mention someone else saying it.
And Oakspear, I'm not trying to blow up your ego or anything like that, but your honesty with what you know and just as important or more, what you don't know. As I've seen in many here at GSC. Is refreshing.
Because if you know you don't know about something, you just might be looking for it. Generally speaking and not telling anyone what to do. A decision to look lies within the person. As well as which direction.
ANSWER ABOUT MY VIEW OF HISTORICAL JESUS COPIED AND PASTED FROM THE OTHER THREAD:
Quoteing myslf: I'm not positive Jesus of the Bible actually existed, but if he did I think he may have been a wise and radical teacher who fit into the dying god mythos of the ancients... I do not believe in the divinity, son of God etc.
as a follower of Christ...ive studied, worked and practiced with a variety of monks, nuns, rabbis, priests, ministers, pastors, chaplains and more in recent years (and not just strip-mall/cornfield preachers either, but leader and elders who represent their various judeo-christian lineages and traditions quite well) ...and NONE of them would agree or condone the kind of "praying for heathens" and such being addressed and demonstrated here.
most all of them were interested in finding out how to renew and refresh and compare their own understanding of scripture and relationship with God and Christ via the mature, reasonable, real, practical, and compassionate forms of dialogue that EACH of the lineages had to offer to the whole group.
seems most every branch of the judeo-christian tree of history has a welath of practical, time-tested, reliable, simple, rational habit-forming methods of dialogue that can serve to elevate just about any conversation to a level worth calling Christlike.
but just as an experienced plumber knows when someone is not a plumber
(though the non-plumber themselves may not know how much they dont know about plumbing)
its quite clear when the opposite of such mature dialogue is happening to a conversation
along with your very good questions, OAK
another sincere and enduring question that often comes up for me...
...how might we find a way to help improve the quality of dialogue in an environment where not all are capable or interested in doing such a thing?
Actually this was your initial response to me. . . . posted directly below my question. . . a simple question with caviat "If you want".
Let's see, my prayer is considered harm and insulting. . . I am lectured about trying to "win" people to my faith. . . .by simply asking to separate the man and His message from man's religion. . . . meaning what do you think about Him as a human. . . NOT GOD.
Well, you can read it. . . then I HUMBLE myself and apologise. . . answer OAKSPEAR and I am told over here that I don't repspect your choices.
I tell you the things of God are not for you. . . the things which you yourself profess to REJECT and I am insulting.
Have it however you like it Bramble. . .
I see the calvary is here. . . Have fun guys.
Bramble in response to my question. . .
I am not interested in a thread about why bramble is not a Christian, so this is all I will say to the above.
geisha, I self identify as an eclectic Wiccan( or eclectic Wiccanlike pagan, depending who I am chatting with). That 'title' gives people a connecting place.
I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself.
I don't believe in the Bible as the Truth( I also don't believe the gnostic gospels as the truth), or in one god, or in the Fall, or original sin or in a savior for mankind, or in one way, one religion for all mankind.
I'm not positive Jesus of the Bible actually existed, but if he did I think he may have been a wise and radical teacher who fit into the dying god mythos of the ancients... I do not believe in the divinity, son of God etc.
Those are Christian beliefs, obviously, not mine. I am not fearful of the Bible God or Hell and am willing to take full responsibilty for my life in this life and the next.
I find the idea of someone praying for me to leave my beliefs and accept their beliefs rather insulting. Some Wiccans/pagans believe that type of prayer is manipulative magic and brings no good because manipulation of another without their consent is a type of harm.
I do not see the doctrinal forum as a place to 'win' people to my religion. I believe they should seek and find their own truths.
Well, I guess you folks should credit me for having sensitivities and a level of compassion superior to Geisha’s: I haven’t spent a nanosecond praying for your sorry asses.
without the man with what comes out of his mouth, or 'the message'
whoever the man is, what he speaks is who he is
or part anyway
unless he's a liar i suppose
cman,
Jesus was a man... fully human. . . He had an amazing ability to bring things back to the human condition with just a phrase. . . He is all about understanding the human condition. It is amazing to read the things he zeroed in on in the gospels. . . like when he said. . . he who is without sin. . .
His words on judgement. . . or hypocritical judgement. He really got that stuff. The parables so reveal the human condition.
He was tempted in all ways. . . His responses are what amaze me. . . . not what you would think. . .
That is what I was thinking about when I asked about the man. He WAS a man. . . His message still captivates saint and sinner alike. . . because it is so unique.
Geisha, prayer should be an act of love. The eyes of love do not view a loved one as as swine. I see a discordance there. You don't?
Discordance like that is for me a sign of trouble, something is not right. Reconsider. I believe the intent of the heart does matter, and discordance causes things to not work right. If part of your heart is us vs them, and the other part is ahh, I want to help...things get muddied, IMO. Prayer should be done wholehearted and clear.
And probably none of this makes any sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.
Geisha, prayer should be an act of love. The eyes of love do not view a loved one as as swine. I see a discordance there. You don't?
Discordance like that is for me a sign of trouble, something is not right. Reconsider. I believe the intent of the heart does matter, and discordance causes things to not work right. If part of your heart is us vs them, and the other part is ahh, I want to help...things get muddied, IMO. Prayer should be done wholehearted and clear.
And probably none of this makes any sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.
Bramble
I truly want health and good things for you in this life.
And Oakspear, I'm not trying to blow up your ego or anything like that, but your honesty with what you know and just as important or more, what you don't know. As I've seen in many here at GSC. Is refreshing.
Because if you know you don't know about something, you just might be looking for it. Generally speaking and not telling anyone what to do. A decision to look lies within the person. As well as which direction.
Thanks
along with your very good questions, OAK
another sincere and enduring question that often comes up for me...
...how might we find a way to help improve the quality of dialogue in an environment where not all are capable or interested?
Good question. I for one will consider it :)
Well, I guess you folks should credit me for having sensitivities and a level of compassion superior to Geisha’s: I haven’t spent a nanosecond praying for your sorry asses.
It is also "surprise" instead of surprize. . . . apologize instead of apologise. . . I revert sometimes...
I look at my spelling at times and just wonder. . . "what was I thinking?"
It has been fun, but not really. . . enjoy your multi-faith forum :) Minus those of us with more Orthodox traditional views. . . look around. . . just about all of us are gone.
I will do my best NOT to pray for you. . . sometimes my heart just wells up with such joy in the Lord and love for all His creatures I may lapse. . .
:)
But if this is tolerance. . . they need to redefine it in the dictionary.
What is this prayer supposed to accomplish? Cause my free will to be overridden? Sweep away some supposed fog or veil that is preventing me from seeing the truth?
What would you think if a Witch told you that they were casting a spell to get you to reject Christianity and embrace the craft?
For another perspective on the same topic, please take a look at this little thing from Penn Jillette (of Penn & Teller fame).
Please note the whole 5 minutes is interesting, but the real "money quote" part comes starting at 3:00
The Christian proselytizer might 'really, really, really' believe what he's saying, and he might even be a nice guy and all, but being pushy with his religion (ie., speaking it more than once after being turned down) crosses the line. That was one of the biggest things I hated about going WOW.
Penn's example about 'believing that you were going to be hit by a truck unless he steps in and tackles you' doesn't fly, particularly if their ain't no truck to begin with. False dilemma, my friend, false dilemma.
As far as someone continues to 'pray for you' even if you decline it crosses no one's lines, _so long as the prayer doesn't keep sticking it in your face about it.
Best example for Christians to bring people into the fold (that is, those who decide to), is to live a moral/ethical life above the rest, and be that example that clearly demonstrates why Christianity is the 'saving grace' of us all. Simply 'preaching Jesus' ain't gonna cut it.
Nor will regarding infidels and other forms of unbelievers a 'bunch of sorry asses', that much is for sure. <_<
Does tolerance mean agreeing with everything another says?
When you 'cast you pearls before swine' you meant Oakspear and I. TWICE
But it must be okay because it is in the Bible! The Bible could never be used to take digs at people. Never!
Then when you're called on it you cry victim.
And I'm( and what, two or three others)are also responsible for the decline of the true Christians in doctrinal. Who knew? Did you tell paw?
Please note that on Jeff's Jesus/Mary thread all I did was give Jeff some info. You, Geisha, took off from there. And now I suspect your motives even more.
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geisha779
First, witches don't shock me. . . what they do. . . practice. . . . believe. . . .doesn't have the shock value it might for other Christians. . . Either way. . . It is a moot point. . . it is not going to happen. . . and it wouldn't really bother me if some misguided whitch did cast a spell. . .
Now, let me answer your first question by posing one of mine own. If I actually. . . wholeheartedly. . . without doubt and trepidation believe the gospel of Christ. . . and actually believe within my deepest core. . . that Jesus is the only way to God. . . that there is eternal consequences to rejecting Him. . . why would I NOT tell you about this. . . make every effort to ensure you hear. . . and pray to the God I believe in. . . for your soul.
. . . Your unbelief in no way invalidates my belief. . . it puts us at cross purposes. . . something the bible clearly covers.
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Bramble
Repecting me as an adult equal(which may not be the case, perhaps pagan/ unbelievers etc are not viewed as equals by some Christians--certainly not in our TWI backgrounds-- 'equals' means that my choices are respected. If there is a constant view and 'push' to change me--my beliefs, my habits, whatever, it to me implies a lack of respect. Not love.
To me it is a matter of boundary hopping. While your beliefs are precious to you, when dealing with others it is not all about you. While we only interact on a forum it is not that big a deal, but if an aquintance constantly sought to change me to their religion I would draw a firm boundary line with them--and have.
Being 'opposed' to other religions (or other Christian doctrines) is in my opinion the great weakness and danger of many Christian doctrines/Churches. I view that attitude as ultimately dividing communities, families, causing undo pain and division between those that conform and those that don't, to win a soul(a belief--soul--that I don't hold). Christianity as a sword to divide has no positive affect that I perceive.
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geisha779
My belief system is not about me at all. . . perhaps I don't make that clear. . . it is about Jesus. . . but you seem overly concerned with that belief system somehow encroaching upon yours.
While speaking of DOCTRINAL issues in a DOCTRINAL forum on an ex-cult site in a thread about the bible, Jesus, or prayer. . . may or may not seem like boundry hopping to you. . . I must internally question that logic.
You reject Christianity as your faith. You clearly have articulated that you stand by your words. . . with no fear or trepidation. I CAN respect that. Got it. . .
I articulate my faith. . . what you believe . . . you have articulated. . . I can respect your choice, but don't have to repect your faith as it runs contrary to what I truly believe. That means Bramble. . . my entire---complete---and all encompassing world view.
An objective truth. Meaning. . . truth with a corresponding object. . . which by its very nature rejects all other opposing or alternate objects.
There you have it
Seems to me. . . you have a very difficult time respecting my choice. . . which appears to be offensive to you. . .no surprize. . . the bible speaks of this very thing.
I have NO desire to offer you or others who reject Him. . . the Holy things of God. You have made clear you don't want them. They are not FOR you. They do not belong to you. . They belong to those who believe on Him.
Am I clear enough?
Let me articulate with the words of Jesus. . .
"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
Just to add: It in no way is surprizing to me that you have an opinion about a faith and community you reject. . . but if you would take note. . . although I reject your faith. . . other than a clear rejection of it. . . I offer no insight into it or opinion of it. . . you are certainly free to participate in a conversation about the Christian faith and what you perceive its weakness or strength. . . I am free to wonder why you would?
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Bramble
Really what was the point--and why am I such a sucker???
Dangle the bait, dangle the bait. GAH.
Dmd if you do and dmd if you don't.
geisha, you already knew you were asking rank unbelieving swine--what type of answer did you think you were going to get??? Orthodox Christian ones???
And the swine/goat etc insulting titles may be in the Bible but that doesn't make them not insults.
They do however, make me glad I'm not a Christian who has to spout such stuff.
But yeah, you baited, I bit. You win.
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cman
Most Christian doctrines promoted in organized religion really suck anyway. Though they touch on a few things, it's not likely that any even see it. Including the speaker.
Oakspear and Bramble make more sense then this Jesus promoting doctrine. Of which for the most part Jesus is not understood as the man he was and is and the Christ he became and is. Jesus is shoved in without even knowing what he was talking about, did and taught by his life. Nor is it required to hear from God.
But it can be heard and understood if man's bs is shut down long enough for the Spirit/God/Christ/ or whatever is there to get a word in. Which takes being quiet on the inside for however long it takes to hear what is ready and willing and talking from within. And it takes time to even figure out what is heard, which needs more listening.
Then your own efforts can be seen for what they have provided.
Others can help inspire, but not dictate anyone's thoughts/beliefs/actions or results.
As I recently heard, we have a built in ability to discern.
If one is honest enough to be honest with themselves.
I can see it, and have, just thought I'd mention someone else saying it.
And Oakspear, I'm not trying to blow up your ego or anything like that, but your honesty with what you know and just as important or more, what you don't know. As I've seen in many here at GSC. Is refreshing.
Because if you know you don't know about something, you just might be looking for it. Generally speaking and not telling anyone what to do. A decision to look lies within the person. As well as which direction.
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geisha779
I didn't get an answer. . . I got a lecture.
I asked you about the historical figure Jesus . . . added the caviat "If you want". . . apologized for offending you and here we are. . . .
Keep flogging that dead horse. . . I mentioned Jesus and prayer. . . quoted scripture and tried to make conversation on a thread about Jesus.
Oh the humanity.
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cman
And to add, Jesus did not promote himself at all.
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Bramble
ANSWER ABOUT MY VIEW OF HISTORICAL JESUS COPIED AND PASTED FROM THE OTHER THREAD:
Quoteing myslf: I'm not positive Jesus of the Bible actually existed, but if he did I think he may have been a wise and radical teacher who fit into the dying god mythos of the ancients... I do not believe in the divinity, son of God etc.
How I should have answered:
Off topic to this discussion.
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sirguessalot
for what its worth...
as a follower of Christ...ive studied, worked and practiced with a variety of monks, nuns, rabbis, priests, ministers, pastors, chaplains and more in recent years (and not just strip-mall/cornfield preachers either, but leader and elders who represent their various judeo-christian lineages and traditions quite well) ...and NONE of them would agree or condone the kind of "praying for heathens" and such being addressed and demonstrated here.
most all of them were interested in finding out how to renew and refresh and compare their own understanding of scripture and relationship with God and Christ via the mature, reasonable, real, practical, and compassionate forms of dialogue that EACH of the lineages had to offer to the whole group.
seems most every branch of the judeo-christian tree of history has a welath of practical, time-tested, reliable, simple, rational habit-forming methods of dialogue that can serve to elevate just about any conversation to a level worth calling Christlike.
but just as an experienced plumber knows when someone is not a plumber
(though the non-plumber themselves may not know how much they dont know about plumbing)
its quite clear when the opposite of such mature dialogue is happening to a conversation
along with your very good questions, OAK
another sincere and enduring question that often comes up for me...
...how might we find a way to help improve the quality of dialogue in an environment where not all are capable or interested in doing such a thing?
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geisha779
Actually this was your initial response to me. . . . posted directly below my question. . . a simple question with caviat "If you want".
Let's see, my prayer is considered harm and insulting. . . I am lectured about trying to "win" people to my faith. . . .by simply asking to separate the man and His message from man's religion. . . . meaning what do you think about Him as a human. . . NOT GOD.
Well, you can read it. . . then I HUMBLE myself and apologise. . . answer OAKSPEAR and I am told over here that I don't repspect your choices.
I tell you the things of God are not for you. . . the things which you yourself profess to REJECT and I am insulting.
Have it however you like it Bramble. . .
I see the calvary is here. . . Have fun guys.
Bramble in response to my question. . .
I am not interested in a thread about why bramble is not a Christian, so this is all I will say to the above.
geisha, I self identify as an eclectic Wiccan( or eclectic Wiccanlike pagan, depending who I am chatting with). That 'title' gives people a connecting place.
I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself.
I don't believe in the Bible as the Truth( I also don't believe the gnostic gospels as the truth), or in one god, or in the Fall, or original sin or in a savior for mankind, or in one way, one religion for all mankind.
I'm not positive Jesus of the Bible actually existed, but if he did I think he may have been a wise and radical teacher who fit into the dying god mythos of the ancients... I do not believe in the divinity, son of God etc.
Those are Christian beliefs, obviously, not mine. I am not fearful of the Bible God or Hell and am willing to take full responsibilty for my life in this life and the next.
I find the idea of someone praying for me to leave my beliefs and accept their beliefs rather insulting. Some Wiccans/pagans believe that type of prayer is manipulative magic and brings no good because manipulation of another without their consent is a type of harm.
I do not see the doctrinal forum as a place to 'win' people to my religion. I believe they should seek and find their own truths.
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Cynic
Well, I guess you folks should credit me for having sensitivities and a level of compassion superior to Geisha’s: I haven’t spent a nanosecond praying for your sorry asses.
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Bramble
Yup, praying for me to change my beliefs to your beliefs is insulting to me.
Calling me or other posters 'swine' because it is in the Bible is insulting. This is a multifaith forum.
You can keep your form of Christianity. To me it looks ugly.
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cman
to add to sirg's suggestion for dialog
we could eliminate the us and them mentality
or the I know-you don't
and explore both
what we don't know and what we do or suspect
or whatever is putting one above another
in some sort of weird way
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cman
the calvary is not excluding you geisha
in fact quite the opposite
for instance
here's a question-
how can you separate the man from what he says?
without the man with what comes out of his mouth, or 'the message'
whoever the man is, what he speaks is who he is
or part anyway
unless he's a liar i suppose
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geisha779
I don't pray for you to change your beliefs. . . I pray for your health. . . . everyday
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geisha779
cman,
Jesus was a man... fully human. . . He had an amazing ability to bring things back to the human condition with just a phrase. . . He is all about understanding the human condition. It is amazing to read the things he zeroed in on in the gospels. . . like when he said. . . he who is without sin. . .
His words on judgement. . . or hypocritical judgement. He really got that stuff. The parables so reveal the human condition.
He was tempted in all ways. . . His responses are what amaze me. . . . not what you would think. . .
That is what I was thinking about when I asked about the man. He WAS a man. . . His message still captivates saint and sinner alike. . . because it is so unique.
:)
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Bramble
Geisha, prayer should be an act of love. The eyes of love do not view a loved one as as swine. I see a discordance there. You don't?
Discordance like that is for me a sign of trouble, something is not right. Reconsider. I believe the intent of the heart does matter, and discordance causes things to not work right. If part of your heart is us vs them, and the other part is ahh, I want to help...things get muddied, IMO. Prayer should be done wholehearted and clear.
And probably none of this makes any sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.
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Oakspear
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geisha779
Bramble
I truly want health and good things for you in this life.
Let that be enough.
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Oakspear
Q. What do you call a contrite burro?
A. A sorry foot
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geisha779
It is also "surprise" instead of surprize. . . . apologize instead of apologise. . . I revert sometimes...
I look at my spelling at times and just wonder. . . "what was I thinking?"
It has been fun, but not really. . . enjoy your multi-faith forum :) Minus those of us with more Orthodox traditional views. . . look around. . . just about all of us are gone.
I will do my best NOT to pray for you. . . sometimes my heart just wells up with such joy in the Lord and love for all His creatures I may lapse. . .
:)
But if this is tolerance. . . they need to redefine it in the dictionary.
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markomalley
For another perspective on the same topic, please take a look at this little thing from Penn Jillette (of Penn & Teller fame).
Please note the whole 5 minutes is interesting, but the real "money quote" part comes starting at 3:00
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GarthP2000
Mark,
Uummmm, ... no. Sorry, no sale dude.
The Christian proselytizer might 'really, really, really' believe what he's saying, and he might even be a nice guy and all, but being pushy with his religion (ie., speaking it more than once after being turned down) crosses the line. That was one of the biggest things I hated about going WOW.
Penn's example about 'believing that you were going to be hit by a truck unless he steps in and tackles you' doesn't fly, particularly if their ain't no truck to begin with. False dilemma, my friend, false dilemma.
As far as someone continues to 'pray for you' even if you decline it crosses no one's lines, _so long as the prayer doesn't keep sticking it in your face about it.
Best example for Christians to bring people into the fold (that is, those who decide to), is to live a moral/ethical life above the rest, and be that example that clearly demonstrates why Christianity is the 'saving grace' of us all. Simply 'preaching Jesus' ain't gonna cut it.
Nor will regarding infidels and other forms of unbelievers a 'bunch of sorry asses', that much is for sure. <_<
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Bramble
Does tolerance mean agreeing with everything another says?
When you 'cast you pearls before swine' you meant Oakspear and I. TWICE
But it must be okay because it is in the Bible! The Bible could never be used to take digs at people. Never!
Then when you're called on it you cry victim.
And I'm( and what, two or three others)are also responsible for the decline of the true Christians in doctrinal. Who knew? Did you tell paw?
Please note that on Jeff's Jesus/Mary thread all I did was give Jeff some info. You, Geisha, took off from there. And now I suspect your motives even more.
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