Forced Phenomenon

[waysider]

This came up on another thread.

It may seem like a doctrinal issue. It probably is. However, I think it also speaks to the credibility of the snowstorm account and thus has a bearing on things that are "Way related".

We were taught somewhere (I think it might have been AC) that the difference between miracles and phenomenon is that a miracle involves something that is promised in "The Word", whereas, phenomenon involved something that was specifically NOT included in the promises. Both, of course, had to meet a criteria that dictated non-contradiction with the greater context of "The Word" itself.

With that in mind, I seem to recall a teaching (by VPW) that set forth a more refined criteria for phenomenon, specifically.

The premise for this teaching was Judges 6: 36-40 , the record of Gideon and the fleece. I'm not much of a Bible quoter these days but to expedite reading of this post, I'll go ahead and quote that section of scripture.

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36--And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said,

37--Behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said.

38--And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.

39--And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.

40--And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.

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Cutting to the chase, the essence of the teaching was that this was a "once" type of event and the "duplicity" of it established it as such. While it was (supposedly) available for us to "believe" for miracles, it was not available to dictate phenomenon based on the criteria set forth in this incident.

Now, whether one believes this record, or even the Bible, for that matter, is really irrelevant to my point.

Wierwille claimed to have ordered up phenomenon in like manner to Gideon.

How does that fit with the concept of this teaching?

Even more importantly, how does that affect the credibility of PFAL, "The Teacher" and, of course----- the snowstorm"?

Any thoughts?

Edited January 15, 2009 by waysider

[GeorgeStGeorge]

I believe VP explained this as God "winking" at his ignorance, as he did for Gideon. When VP became "more spiritually mature," such phenomenal evidence was no longer necessary.

George

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Wierwille was a walking contradiction. His teachings quite often had very little, if anything to do with his actions. He was like the "Flim Flam Man"...he knew that sooner or later you would catch on to the con...but by then, he had the money and got away clean...

...that's my only explanation to his "forced phenomenon"...Supposedly, Vic had all this "one on one" stuff going with God...but YET he would not allow his followers the same privilege. They were army ants who had to follow a chain of command and get all revelation "cleared" through Vic's hierarcy...

I think that half the time he was buzzing on Drambuie and simply made it up as went...

[Mark Clarke]

I thought I wrote about this somewhere else, but now I can't find it.

Anyway, if I remember correctly, VP's take (and TWI's) was something along the lines of, you can ask God for something and He may or may not give it to you, but He will often work in your heart what to ask for. Then when you ask for what He inspired you to ask for, you're asking according to His will. Supposedly God worked in VP's heart to ask for the snow sign, just like He worked in Gideon's heart to ask for the fleece. So it wasn't "forcing God" so much as asking for what God wanted him to ask for, according to how they looked at it.

As for how it affects his credibility, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that God could work that way. I still maintain that we can't prove or disprove the snow storm story, but his poor research standards and ungodly fruit invalidate his "Man of God" status.

[waysider]

Thanks, guys

It's been a year or two since I listened to that teaching.

I appreciate your input.

[sirguessalot]

This wikipedia entry on Phenomenology may be of value to this thread. Some may even appreciate greek words used, like noema, nous and phainomenon.