If I understand your question correctly, you're asking why it is that some "fantasies" can result in good things and others can elicit bad results. Do you mean "fantasy" in terms of, "What if I could...."?
Most of the things you listed as "good" started out as questions and challenges. Medical progress, space exploration and air travel didn't necessarily come from a fantasy. They came from the need most of mankind has to find solutions to challenges.
Cults and abuse - They can start with the question, "What if I could...?", but I think they have their beginnings in control and manipulation. Porn... that's a term that describes a very broad spectrum that may include but is not limited to fantasy and/or manipulation.
ok, i'm talking about what is and what is not yet and what will never be and what may be and what never was and what was, like hopes and fears too. and specifically talking about religion and abuse, about how these things plant fantastical things in the minds of the followers and victims that just aren't tangible or even believeable but these things get the followers or victims to think these things are tangible and believeable and even have happened, are happening or will happen, and worse yet these things get people thinking that the unbelieveable and intangible things have, can, will and are happening because the followers or victims are making them happen. in therapy it's called "magical thinking" and it's almost the same thing as believing=recieving or the laying on of hands or s.i.t. or heaven or hell or angels or devils because it's like having a magic wand or something and a person thinks that they have all this "power" to induce things and make things happen just because they waved some magic wand like prayer or s.i.t. or "abundant sharing" or because they did or did not "believe" the right doctrine or something. and i don't understand how after being in a cult and seeing how false all these "magical" things were how is it a person keeps trying the same things over and over again when a person knows it didn't work out the first time? and maybe i'm just being dense.
and i don't understand how after being in a cult and seeing how false all these "magical" things were how is it a person keeps trying the same things over and over again when a person knows it didn't work out the first time?
maybe they prefer that fantasy over whatever alternatives there are.
I wouldn't agree that everything you listed qualifies as a "fantasy". It's a little weird to insinuate that because someone was in the "Way" and had a "bad" experience - that all/most of the related material and effort was a fantasy and that to continue endeavoring in any of them is an exercise in "magical thinking".
I can take anything you'd remotely consider "Christian" and make it very manipulative and harmful to you. That doesn't mean that the core material is manipulaive or harmful, only that I am.
I don't think the Way was a cult, I don't think Christianity as held forth was false or magical, when you mention terms like heaven, prayer, healing and believing or what I'd call "faith".
Life is full of intangibles and assumptions. How do you deal with those?
these are good questions because i don't know anymore about how i do deal with such things except to say that if it smells like bs then i stay away from it, and does that mean i don't have any "faith"? i don't know because i never really understood "faith" as a kid because it became "believing" and that made me in control of everything which is were i got the idea of the "magic wand".
Brainfixed - there's most likely no easy answer as to why folks keep on making the same mistakes over and over.
The most important thing for you to understand (IMHO) is what woke you up to leave the evil cult, and how to avoid getting in that situation again. Beyond that, observe and be aware.
Remember - the best revenge is a life well-lived. :)
I come from a little different space than some here, I guess. I certainly DO think that WayWorld was a cult. I find it remarkable that anyone could see it differently once released from it's confines, but, then, that's what makes for discussions I guess.
I also think that "faith" and suchlike is often a cover for simply not wanting to really question notions that one has grown comfortable with. What person, starting from a really "clean slate" would adopt Christianity - or any religion for that matter - if they were fully mature adults before being exposed to the basic tenets of that belief? I would bet not many.
When viewed from an uninvolved, dispassionate place, religious tenets take on a really icky, superstitious, ignorant, and often brutal tone. And when you consider the origin of religions (as in, icky, superstitious, ignorant, and brutal early times of man's civilization), it's not at all remarkable the sort of stuff that's been incorporated into the various "faiths". Stuff like human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, blood offerings, genital mutilation, slavery, and cannibalism are all well represented, even in Christianity. Why is it a wonderful practice that should be observed if it's mentioned in The Bible, , but only foolishness if it's not immortalized in some holy writ? Is "Take, eat" really that much more credible than "Step on a crack, break your mother's back"? I don't see it...
It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Well stated George Aar - we seem to be on the same page (perhaps the last page of the last appendix) with regard to religion in general. No offense to socks - but I consider TWI to have been a devastating cult to many people - yes a cult. While christianity may or may not be valid - as TWI taught it, it was indoctrination into a mind control - and ultimately a body control organization.
There are "icky" aspects to many of the tenets of various religious faiths. I'm sure we all agree on that.
I don't consider something like say "love your neighbor as you would be loved", (including the basic idea of active benevolence towards those I don't know or have complete reason to trust), is superstitious. In fact, it's exactly the opposite, it places the action taken and the reason for the action within complete control of the individual and no one else. This was a basic definition of "love your neighbor" as taught by Jesus and is different than other views of the same idea, such as "don't do what you wouldn't want done to you". Inaction doesn't define anything clearly, certainly not intent. An action will.
Where does Fantasy come in? Believing in a God you can't see, don't know is there and is only a veiled rumor? In healing that never happens, prayers that never have context or are part of a relationship?
I wouldn't believe that either. If there's nothing "there" for a person they can try but I would suggest they be as honest as they can be if there's nothing there for them.
Call the Way whatever you want, there's no offense to me and none taken. It was certainly a badly managed and chaotic enterprise at times. Most religious enterprises - churches, are businesses, started and run by those who want and need to succeed in that arena, be it for "God" or what ever they're calling God that week. It's certainly a fantasy to expect human effort to maintain purity 100% or to assume that someone who insists you give them money for their service isn't in business for themselves. Nor when they do what they want with what we give them.
Eventually they'll all fail cuz one thing's for sure - we ain't taking nothin' with us in the end.
Brainfixed - there's most likely no easy answer as to why folks keep on making the same mistakes over and over.
The most important thing for you to understand (IMHO) is what woke you up to leave the evil cult, and how to avoid getting in that situation again. Beyond that, observe and be aware.
Remember - the best revenge is a life well-lived. :)
i got to ask my questions of coworkers today and they pretty much said what you said, so i guess that's it then. but i never wanted to be in the cult and always knew that the minute i was an adult and could walk away without anybody forcing me back then i'd be gone and never return, so because i was pretty much forced into the way's insanity i am very jumpy about anybody with a belief system to sell me, which is why i wonder the whys of those that aren't.
Brain Fixed, I can sure relate to some of the feelings you've expressed. What has worked for me is developing critical thinking skills – or however you want to refer to them – analytical thinking, reasoning…whatever.
Not saying I've arrived, got it all figured out or discovered some profound truth…but since I left in 86, I've gained a lot more self-confidence, tightened up on my embrace of reality, and have weeded out a lot of the mental baggage from TWI-ville by giving as much thought to my own belief system as a smart shopper does in buying a car or house.
~~
I view life as a journey.
Not saying I've succeeded all by myself, 100 % healed or understand everything about my experience – but even though my wife, friends & medical professionals helped me work through stuff from before & after TWI – it still boiled down to my perception of reality.
Every person's mental map of reality is different – for some folks it's VERY different – the typical TWI mindset plotted everything outside of the New Knoxville Gnostics' frame of thought as unchartered waters with the label "here be dragons". But if we're talking about reality here – I'm of the opinion that a lot of folks' maps will look similar – in that they have similar points of destination: success, marriage, family, happiness, career, etc. and similar routes drawn out how to get there [work hard, dating, passionately pursuing a desire, etc.].
I think TWI sold folks a bogus reality map. "Look at these great destinations! You can go here, here and there and we've got all the secret shortcuts mapped out for you so you'll get there in half the time & effort." I still have on file an old flyer from NY promoting PFAL. It has a drawing of a young lady with such a look of hope & expectation on her face, and the words by her image "You can have whatever you want."
I was a Christian LONG BEFORE taking a gosh-awful long detour through TWI. And I remain a Christian today. But shortly after leaving that labyrinthine loony bin I experienced a crisis of faith that shook me to the very core of my beliefs. Asking myself such a basic question like "Is there a God?" can be such a long & arduous process…and the best I came up with was "I think so."
A thousand apologies to the greatest salesmen in the world, if my experience takes the zing out of Christianity. But since I left TWI, the journey has become much more interesting…True, the "know that you know, that you know, that you know" false confidence crap & the wishful thinking [aka, the magic of believing] provided some degree of comfort & entertainment.
But thankfully – at some point after my escape I realized I had been stuck in a holding pattern over real life…going through the motions again and again, trying to manipulate reality, spinning my wheels but thinking I'm really going places…venturing outside this self-imposed prison is quite an adventure. It takes courage, patience, self forgiveness & acceptance…I love exploring…well, you made a good point:
"…i don't understand how after being in a cult and seeing how false all these "magical" things were how is it a person keeps trying the same things over and over again when a person knows it didn't work out the first time? and maybe i'm just being dense." At least you were smart enough to realize the repetition of failure as cause to examine the mindset and break the repetitive cycle of disappointment.
~~
I like Dooj's line "…the best revenge is a life well-lived." That strikes a big note on this thread. Maybe it's a testimony to the indomitable spirit of man or some sort of resilient thing in us that enables us to bounce back stronger from such experiences.
t-bone you just said everything i've been trying to say and said it very well, and i was just wondering how i could better explain what i was trying to say and there you are doing it for me. thanks! :) my biggest goal in life is to stay on the sane side of perception, and perception is supposed to be reality, but that's a very personal reality and i guess that personal reality is really the only kind of reality there is, but then why have traffic signals or money or all the things that need be perceived as one and only one thing for everybody? i don't really know much of anything but i wonder about everything and that's the fun of life for me, but it's also the hardest thing to do sometimes because i always push myself to make a determined effort to make sure i'm being as real as possible with my own thinking.
i got to ask my questions of coworkers today and they pretty much said what you said, so i guess that's it then. but i never wanted to be in the cult and always knew that the minute i was an adult and could walk away without anybody forcing me back then i'd be gone and never return, so because i was pretty much forced into the way's insanity i am very jumpy about anybody with a belief system to sell me, which is why i wonder the whys of those that aren't.
Brainfixed - I kinda figured you never wanted to be in the cult.
Now, for that life well-lived.... make a list and get moving. Like the song goes, "You've got a lot of living to do."
i should clarify. i don't know if the way was a cult -- i don't even know what a cult is -- i just think it was a hurtful religion. i also think that about the catholic church
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doojable
Brainfixed -
If I understand your question correctly, you're asking why it is that some "fantasies" can result in good things and others can elicit bad results. Do you mean "fantasy" in terms of, "What if I could...."?
Most of the things you listed as "good" started out as questions and challenges. Medical progress, space exploration and air travel didn't necessarily come from a fantasy. They came from the need most of mankind has to find solutions to challenges.
Cults and abuse - They can start with the question, "What if I could...?", but I think they have their beginnings in control and manipulation. Porn... that's a term that describes a very broad spectrum that may include but is not limited to fantasy and/or manipulation.
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pond
Imagination unrestricted by reality defines fantasy.
Imagination- the ability to deal resourcefully with unusual problems.
Reality is all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you.
One reason I was involved was my youth in and of itself my experiences had been that bible class was a good thing for me.
What I "fell for" was the chance at love. Now ask me if love is a fantasy or not and we can have another thread. A life time thread for me.
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brainfixed
ok, i'm talking about what is and what is not yet and what will never be and what may be and what never was and what was, like hopes and fears too. and specifically talking about religion and abuse, about how these things plant fantastical things in the minds of the followers and victims that just aren't tangible or even believeable but these things get the followers or victims to think these things are tangible and believeable and even have happened, are happening or will happen, and worse yet these things get people thinking that the unbelieveable and intangible things have, can, will and are happening because the followers or victims are making them happen. in therapy it's called "magical thinking" and it's almost the same thing as believing=recieving or the laying on of hands or s.i.t. or heaven or hell or angels or devils because it's like having a magic wand or something and a person thinks that they have all this "power" to induce things and make things happen just because they waved some magic wand like prayer or s.i.t. or "abundant sharing" or because they did or did not "believe" the right doctrine or something. and i don't understand how after being in a cult and seeing how false all these "magical" things were how is it a person keeps trying the same things over and over again when a person knows it didn't work out the first time? and maybe i'm just being dense.
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Bolshevik
maybe they prefer that fantasy over whatever alternatives there are.
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socks
I wouldn't agree that everything you listed qualifies as a "fantasy". It's a little weird to insinuate that because someone was in the "Way" and had a "bad" experience - that all/most of the related material and effort was a fantasy and that to continue endeavoring in any of them is an exercise in "magical thinking".
I can take anything you'd remotely consider "Christian" and make it very manipulative and harmful to you. That doesn't mean that the core material is manipulaive or harmful, only that I am.
I don't think the Way was a cult, I don't think Christianity as held forth was false or magical, when you mention terms like heaven, prayer, healing and believing or what I'd call "faith".
Life is full of intangibles and assumptions. How do you deal with those?
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brainfixed
these are good questions because i don't know anymore about how i do deal with such things except to say that if it smells like bs then i stay away from it, and does that mean i don't have any "faith"? i don't know because i never really understood "faith" as a kid because it became "believing" and that made me in control of everything which is were i got the idea of the "magic wand".
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doojable
Brainfixed - there's most likely no easy answer as to why folks keep on making the same mistakes over and over.
The most important thing for you to understand (IMHO) is what woke you up to leave the evil cult, and how to avoid getting in that situation again. Beyond that, observe and be aware.
Remember - the best revenge is a life well-lived. :)
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George Aar
I come from a little different space than some here, I guess. I certainly DO think that WayWorld was a cult. I find it remarkable that anyone could see it differently once released from it's confines, but, then, that's what makes for discussions I guess.
I also think that "faith" and suchlike is often a cover for simply not wanting to really question notions that one has grown comfortable with. What person, starting from a really "clean slate" would adopt Christianity - or any religion for that matter - if they were fully mature adults before being exposed to the basic tenets of that belief? I would bet not many.
When viewed from an uninvolved, dispassionate place, religious tenets take on a really icky, superstitious, ignorant, and often brutal tone. And when you consider the origin of religions (as in, icky, superstitious, ignorant, and brutal early times of man's civilization), it's not at all remarkable the sort of stuff that's been incorporated into the various "faiths". Stuff like human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, blood offerings, genital mutilation, slavery, and cannibalism are all well represented, even in Christianity. Why is it a wonderful practice that should be observed if it's mentioned in The Bible, , but only foolishness if it's not immortalized in some holy writ? Is "Take, eat" really that much more credible than "Step on a crack, break your mother's back"? I don't see it...
It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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RumRunner
Well stated George Aar - we seem to be on the same page (perhaps the last page of the last appendix) with regard to religion in general. No offense to socks - but I consider TWI to have been a devastating cult to many people - yes a cult. While christianity may or may not be valid - as TWI taught it, it was indoctrination into a mind control - and ultimately a body control organization.
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socks
Was it?
There are "icky" aspects to many of the tenets of various religious faiths. I'm sure we all agree on that.
I don't consider something like say "love your neighbor as you would be loved", (including the basic idea of active benevolence towards those I don't know or have complete reason to trust), is superstitious. In fact, it's exactly the opposite, it places the action taken and the reason for the action within complete control of the individual and no one else. This was a basic definition of "love your neighbor" as taught by Jesus and is different than other views of the same idea, such as "don't do what you wouldn't want done to you". Inaction doesn't define anything clearly, certainly not intent. An action will.
Where does Fantasy come in? Believing in a God you can't see, don't know is there and is only a veiled rumor? In healing that never happens, prayers that never have context or are part of a relationship?
I wouldn't believe that either. If there's nothing "there" for a person they can try but I would suggest they be as honest as they can be if there's nothing there for them.
Call the Way whatever you want, there's no offense to me and none taken. It was certainly a badly managed and chaotic enterprise at times. Most religious enterprises - churches, are businesses, started and run by those who want and need to succeed in that arena, be it for "God" or what ever they're calling God that week. It's certainly a fantasy to expect human effort to maintain purity 100% or to assume that someone who insists you give them money for their service isn't in business for themselves. Nor when they do what they want with what we give them.
Eventually they'll all fail cuz one thing's for sure - we ain't taking nothin' with us in the end.
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brainfixed
i got to ask my questions of coworkers today and they pretty much said what you said, so i guess that's it then. but i never wanted to be in the cult and always knew that the minute i was an adult and could walk away without anybody forcing me back then i'd be gone and never return, so because i was pretty much forced into the way's insanity i am very jumpy about anybody with a belief system to sell me, which is why i wonder the whys of those that aren't.
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T-Bone
Brain Fixed, I can sure relate to some of the feelings you've expressed. What has worked for me is developing critical thinking skills – or however you want to refer to them – analytical thinking, reasoning…whatever.
Not saying I've arrived, got it all figured out or discovered some profound truth…but since I left in 86, I've gained a lot more self-confidence, tightened up on my embrace of reality, and have weeded out a lot of the mental baggage from TWI-ville by giving as much thought to my own belief system as a smart shopper does in buying a car or house.
~~
I view life as a journey.
Not saying I've succeeded all by myself, 100 % healed or understand everything about my experience – but even though my wife, friends & medical professionals helped me work through stuff from before & after TWI – it still boiled down to my perception of reality.
Every person's mental map of reality is different – for some folks it's VERY different – the typical TWI mindset plotted everything outside of the New Knoxville Gnostics' frame of thought as unchartered waters with the label "here be dragons". But if we're talking about reality here – I'm of the opinion that a lot of folks' maps will look similar – in that they have similar points of destination: success, marriage, family, happiness, career, etc. and similar routes drawn out how to get there [work hard, dating, passionately pursuing a desire, etc.].
I think TWI sold folks a bogus reality map. "Look at these great destinations! You can go here, here and there and we've got all the secret shortcuts mapped out for you so you'll get there in half the time & effort." I still have on file an old flyer from NY promoting PFAL. It has a drawing of a young lady with such a look of hope & expectation on her face, and the words by her image "You can have whatever you want."
I was a Christian LONG BEFORE taking a gosh-awful long detour through TWI. And I remain a Christian today. But shortly after leaving that labyrinthine loony bin I experienced a crisis of faith that shook me to the very core of my beliefs. Asking myself such a basic question like "Is there a God?" can be such a long & arduous process…and the best I came up with was "I think so."
A thousand apologies to the greatest salesmen in the world, if my experience takes the zing out of Christianity. But since I left TWI, the journey has become much more interesting…True, the "know that you know, that you know, that you know" false confidence crap & the wishful thinking [aka, the magic of believing] provided some degree of comfort & entertainment.
But thankfully – at some point after my escape I realized I had been stuck in a holding pattern over real life…going through the motions again and again, trying to manipulate reality, spinning my wheels but thinking I'm really going places…venturing outside this self-imposed prison is quite an adventure. It takes courage, patience, self forgiveness & acceptance…I love exploring…well, you made a good point:
"…i don't understand how after being in a cult and seeing how false all these "magical" things were how is it a person keeps trying the same things over and over again when a person knows it didn't work out the first time? and maybe i'm just being dense." At least you were smart enough to realize the repetition of failure as cause to examine the mindset and break the repetitive cycle of disappointment.
~~
I like Dooj's line "…the best revenge is a life well-lived." That strikes a big note on this thread. Maybe it's a testimony to the indomitable spirit of man or some sort of resilient thing in us that enables us to bounce back stronger from such experiences.
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brainfixed
t-bone you just said everything i've been trying to say and said it very well, and i was just wondering how i could better explain what i was trying to say and there you are doing it for me. thanks! :) my biggest goal in life is to stay on the sane side of perception, and perception is supposed to be reality, but that's a very personal reality and i guess that personal reality is really the only kind of reality there is, but then why have traffic signals or money or all the things that need be perceived as one and only one thing for everybody? i don't really know much of anything but i wonder about everything and that's the fun of life for me, but it's also the hardest thing to do sometimes because i always push myself to make a determined effort to make sure i'm being as real as possible with my own thinking.
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doojable
Brainfixed - I kinda figured you never wanted to be in the cult.
Now, for that life well-lived.... make a list and get moving. Like the song goes, "You've got a lot of living to do."
*Please don't look up how old that song is :) )
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excathedra
the way was more than "icky" for me
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excathedra
i do think the way was a cult, but i also think you can find jesus christ in a cult or anywhere for that matter, but i don't know how to express it
also
i liked that, pond
i couldn't read all of this sorry, no retention
but oh forget it
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excathedra
i should clarify. i don't know if the way was a cult -- i don't even know what a cult is -- i just think it was a hurtful religion. i also think that about the catholic church
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